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[Arashi08]

Rifneno wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

And people STILL think Shepard was implanted with Reaper tech? Seriously? Grayson was the first one implanted with Reaper tech AFTER the events of ME2. and yes they did have cybernetic prosthetics before they found Reaper tech, it was one of the reasons why the Parlamentary Subcommittee for Transhuman Studies existed. I can't see TIM risking Shepard's identity with tech that could possibly indoctrinate her when he wanted to keep who she was intact.

I think it's laughable that anyone thinks Shepard DOESN'T have Reaper tech in him. They went out of their way to tell us how impossible bringing Shepard back was by all known medical science. Then all of a sudden with no real explanation, they can do it. And we have Miranda ****ing about all the black boxes on the project. What would TIM be hiding from her except Reaper tech? Here's a fun line from Anderson: "That'd be my guess, given what they were able to do with you and Grayson. It's a safe bet Leng's even more dangerous now." There's three people in this comparison. Shepard, Grayson, and Leng. What do they all have in common... Hmmm...

I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, there is NO WAY Shepard could possibly have Reaper tech in her.  And if she did, then it needed elaboration that we didn't get.  No one ever mentions this, not even TIM when he's trying to control Shepard.  if there was EVER a time to reveal that Shepard was implanted with Reaper Tech, it would have been there.  I still stand by the assertion that TIM would not take a chance with tech that has been known to indoctrinate people if he wanted to preserve Shepard's personality.  They used Reaper Tech to make EDI but also took precautions to control her because they didn't know what they would do.

Now, It DOES seem more likely that they studied the Tech they got from Sovereign and created their own implants based on the mechanics of the tech itself.  THAT makes more sense to me.  They only used actual reaper tech on Grayson, to study indoctrination and implanted Leng and the other soldiers to control them.

[byne]

masster blaster wrote...

FifthBeatle wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Also notice in the past all indoctrinated people didn't have anyone with them when it was all happening.

Doesnt change your point much, but what about Kirrahe's men on Virmire? They were all locked together and indoctrinated.

You forget, that each one was tested one by one, not all together. If they are not around eachother, then they are weaker to Indoctrination. Hence why SHepard is alone at the end, with the Catalyst, not anyone else.

What about the Cerberus scientists on the derelict Reaper?

And Kenson's entire team?

[Iconoclaste]

Arashi08 wrote...

Now, It DOES seem more likely that they studied the Tech they got from Sovereign and created their own implants based on the mechanics of the tech itself.  THAT makes more sense to me.  They only used actual reaper tech on Grayson, to study indoctrination and implanted Leng and the other soldiers to control them.

I agree with that entirely.

[masster blaster]

byne wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

FifthBeatle wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Also notice in the past all indoctrinated people didn't have anyone with them when it was all happening.

Doesnt change your point much, but what about Kirrahe's men on Virmire? They were all locked together and indoctrinated.

You forget, that each one was tested one by one, not all together. If they are not around eachother, then they are weaker to Indoctrination. Hence why SHepard is alone at the end, with the Catalyst, not anyone else.

What about the Cerberus scientists on the derelict Reaper?

And Kenson's entire team?

I said if you are alone, then you are weaker to Indoctrination, but if you have people around you, you can fight it. hence if you get through Keson, TIM, and Saren. They break free for a bit. Also the Cerberus team has been on the Reaper for weeks, so it slowly used their own minds to show them things, and make the same memory of a past from someone, or from a thought of mind.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:23 .

[Iconoclaste]

byne wrote...

What about the Cerberus scientists on the derelict Reaper?

And Kenson's entire team?

They might not have been "friends" like Masster proposed, at least not to the same amount as really caring for others. And Shepard and his "friends" were actively "opposing" Reapers, they witnessed Saren's demise directly for some, and they new about indoctrination. On the derelict Reaper, scientists did not have the benefits of this first-hand knowledge, they most probably didn't have a clue about what was happening to them. As for Kenson's team, studying a Reaper artefact in a quiet environment can't be compared to seeing indoc at work in a suicidal Saren, so their state of "alertness" and mutual care was different from Shepard and co., add to this they were all sinking at the same time, which renders behavior changes in the group more difficult to notice.

[masster blaster]

Arashi08 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

And people STILL think Shepard was implanted with Reaper tech? Seriously? Grayson was the first one implanted with Reaper tech AFTER the events of ME2. and yes they did have cybernetic prosthetics before they found Reaper tech, it was one of the reasons why the Parlamentary Subcommittee for Transhuman Studies existed. I can't see TIM risking Shepard's identity with tech that could possibly indoctrinate her when he wanted to keep who she was intact.

I think it's laughable that anyone thinks Shepard DOESN'T have Reaper tech in him. They went out of their way to tell us how impossible bringing Shepard back was by all known medical science. Then all of a sudden with no real explanation, they can do it. And we have Miranda ****ing about all the black boxes on the project. What would TIM be hiding from her except Reaper tech? Here's a fun line from Anderson: "That'd be my guess, given what they were able to do with you and Grayson. It's a safe bet Leng's even more dangerous now." There's three people in this comparison. Shepard, Grayson, and Leng. What do they all have in common... Hmmm...

I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, there is NO WAY Shepard could possibly have Reaper tech in her.  And if she did, then it needed elaboration that we didn't get.  No one ever mentions this, not even TIM when he's trying to control Shepard.  if there was EVER a time to reveal that Shepard was implanted with Reaper Tech, it would have been there.  I still stand by the assertion that TIM would not take a chance with tech that has been known to indoctrinate people if he wanted to preserve Shepard's personality.  They used Reaper Tech to make EDI but also took precautions to control her because they didn't know what they would do.

Now, It DOES seem more likely that they studied the Tech they got from Sovereign and created their own implants based on the mechanics of the tech itself.  THAT makes more sense to me.  They only used actual reaper tech on Grayson, to study indoctrination and implanted Leng and the other soldiers to control them.

Actually, it's not that hard to believe that they could have implanted
him/her with Reaper tech. To Doctors it could just be a regular implant,
but it's not. Remember Miranda just got black boxes, and they used what
ever they had to bring back Shepard back to life. Also I don't believe
TIM would create implants based on Reaper tech, since he himself knew
what it does to the being that has it. Also if it was his own made, then
how did he sub come to the Reapers at the end, and why did Saren have
implants in him, that we couldn't see, but he told us about it. We can't
see it physically, nor can we tell what it looks like, so it's 50/50.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:35 .

[Rifneno]

Arashi08 wrote...

I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, there is NO WAY Shepard could possibly have Reaper tech in her. And if she did, then it needed elaboration that we didn't get. No one ever mentions this, not even TIM when he's trying to control Shepard. if there was EVER a time to reveal that Shepard was implanted with Reaper Tech, it would have been there. I still stand by the assertion that TIM would not take a chance with tech that has been known to indoctrinate people if he wanted to preserve Shepard's personality. They used Reaper Tech to make EDI but also took precautions to control her because they didn't know what they would do.

Now, It DOES seem more likely that they studied the Tech they got from Sovereign and created their own implants based on the mechanics of the tech itself. THAT makes more sense to me. They only used actual reaper tech on Grayson, to study indoctrination and implanted Leng and the other soldiers to control them.

So Shepard doesn't have Reaper tech because the TIM that isn't really TIM but rather an indoctrination hallucination from all the Reaper tech didn't say "hey, you're full of Reaper tech"? ... What? That makes less sense than "my subjects keep creating AI's that kill them, I better make an AI to fix the situation".

They only used Reaper tech on Grayson? That's why the video logs talk about the soldiers hearing voices? That's why some of the Cerberus troops speak a strange gibberish that could only be Reaper language? No. Just no.

[Arashi08]

masster blaster wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

And people STILL think Shepard was implanted with Reaper tech? Seriously? Grayson was the first one implanted with Reaper tech AFTER the events of ME2. and yes they did have cybernetic prosthetics before they found Reaper tech, it was one of the reasons why the Parlamentary Subcommittee for Transhuman Studies existed. I can't see TIM risking Shepard's identity with tech that could possibly indoctrinate her when he wanted to keep who she was intact.

I think it's laughable that anyone thinks Shepard DOESN'T have Reaper tech in him. They went out of their way to tell us how impossible bringing Shepard back was by all known medical science. Then all of a sudden with no real explanation, they can do it. And we have Miranda ****ing about all the black boxes on the project. What would TIM be hiding from her except Reaper tech? Here's a fun line from Anderson: "That'd be my guess, given what they were able to do with you and Grayson. It's a safe bet Leng's even more dangerous now." There's three people in this comparison. Shepard, Grayson, and Leng. What do they all have in common... Hmmm...

I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, there is NO WAY Shepard could possibly have Reaper tech in her.  And if she did, then it needed elaboration that we didn't get.  No one ever mentions this, not even TIM when he's trying to control Shepard.  if there was EVER a time to reveal that Shepard was implanted with Reaper Tech, it would have been there.  I still stand by the assertion that TIM would not take a chance with tech that has been known to indoctrinate people if he wanted to preserve Shepard's personality.  They used Reaper Tech to make EDI but also took precautions to control her because they didn't know what they would do.

Now, It DOES seem more likely that they studied the Tech they got from Sovereign and created their own implants based on the mechanics of the tech itself.  THAT makes more sense to me.  They only used actual reaper tech on Grayson, to study indoctrination and implanted Leng and the other soldiers to control them.

Actually, it's not that hard to believe that htey could have implanted him/her with Reaper yech. To Doctors it could just be a reguler implant, but it's not. Remember Miranda just got black boxes, and they sued what ever they hade to bring back SHepard back to life. Also I don't believe TIM would create implants based on Reaper tech, since he himself knew what it does to the being that has it. Also if it was his own made, then how did he subcome to the Reapers at the end, and why did Saren have implants in him, that we couldn't see, but he told us about it. We can't see it physically, nor can we tell what it looks like, so it's 50/50.

But then what was the point of putting Reaper Tech in Shepard and never telling the player?  That seems like a pretty big reveal.  I was saying that TIM used regular implants that were designed by looking at reaper tech and seeing how it worked.  and to use your own example, if TIM was aware of what Reaper Tech did then why would he put in in Shepard if he wanted Shepard to maintain her personality?  and we actually could see Saren's Reaper Tech,  if you pay attention in the final act he is glowing bright blue all over his body, especially his eyes.

[Rifneno]

Arashi08 wrote...

But then what was the point of putting Reaper Tech in Shepard and never telling the player?

<points at thread title>

[masster blaster]

Arashi08 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

And people STILL think Shepard was implanted with Reaper tech? Seriously? Grayson was the first one implanted with Reaper tech AFTER the events of ME2. and yes they did have cybernetic prosthetics before they found Reaper tech, it was one of the reasons why the Parlamentary Subcommittee for Transhuman Studies existed. I can't see TIM risking Shepard's identity with tech that could possibly indoctrinate her when he wanted to keep who she was intact.

I think it's laughable that anyone thinks Shepard DOESN'T have Reaper tech in him. They went out of their way to tell us how impossible bringing Shepard back was by all known medical science. Then all of a sudden with no real explanation, they can do it. And we have Miranda ****ing about all the black boxes on the project. What would TIM be hiding from her except Reaper tech? Here's a fun line from Anderson: "That'd be my guess, given what they were able to do with you and Grayson. It's a safe bet Leng's even more dangerous now." There's three people in this comparison. Shepard, Grayson, and Leng. What do they all have in common... Hmmm...

I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, there is NO WAY Shepard could possibly have Reaper tech in her.  And if she did, then it needed elaboration that we didn't get.  No one ever mentions this, not even TIM when he's trying to control Shepard.  if there was EVER a time to reveal that Shepard was implanted with Reaper Tech, it would have been there.  I still stand by the assertion that TIM would not take a chance with tech that has been known to indoctrinate people if he wanted to preserve Shepard's personality.  They used Reaper Tech to make EDI but also took precautions to control her because they didn't know what they would do.

Now, It DOES seem more likely that they studied the Tech they got from Sovereign and created their own implants based on the mechanics of the tech itself.  THAT makes more sense to me.  They only used actual reaper tech on Grayson, to study indoctrination and implanted Leng and the other soldiers to control them.

Actually, it's not that hard to believe that htey could have implanted him/her with Reaper yech. To Doctors it could just be a reguler implant, but it's not. Remember Miranda just got black boxes, and they sued what ever they hade to bring back SHepard back to life. Also I don't believe TIM would create implants based on Reaper tech, since he himself knew what it does to the being that has it. Also if it was his own made, then how did he subcome to the Reapers at the end, and why did Saren have implants in him, that we couldn't see, but he told us about it. We can't see it physically, nor can we tell what it looks like, so it's 50/50.

But then what was the point of putting Reaper Tech in Shepard and never telling the player?  That seems like a pretty big reveal.  I was saying that TIM used regular implants that were designed by looking at reaper tech and seeing how it worked.  and to use your own example, if TIM was aware of what Reaper Tech did then why would he put in in Shepard if he wanted Shepard to maintain her personality?  and we actually could see Saren's Reaper Tech,  if you pay attention in the final act he is glowing bright blue all over his body, especially his eyes.

You forget TIM get's his implants that are Reaper tech, because we know he did it, and we see his implants at the end, or is it. Think about it, in Control, and Synthesis we get a Reaper tech like seen don't we. Also Saren had the eyes for a while, and so did TIM. Also he was glowing on Virmire, but he wasn't implanted yet.


Also not telling is half the fun, besides if they tell the player, then it would be telling use the whole run down at the end. Hence the tile above, like my Badger friend said.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:46 .

[Iconoclaste]

Rifneno wrote...

So Shepard doesn't have Reaper tech because the TIM that isn't really TIM but rather an indoctrination hallucination from all the Reaper tech didn't say "hey, you're full of Reaper tech"? ... What? That makes less sense than "my subjects keep creating AI's that kill them, I better make an AI to fix the situation".

They only used Reaper tech on Grayson? That's why the video logs talk about the soldiers hearing voices? That's why some of the Cerberus troops speak a strange gibberish that could only be Reaper language? No. Just no.

TIM wanted control for himself, and surely wouldn't allow the Reapers to take over his work by implanting his most precious subject with their tech. But the Reapers don't need their "tech" in Shepard in order to get a hold on him : they just need to get hold of TIM, which they finally get at some point. By controlling TIM, they only exert their control through him to whoever they wish under his control. And using this way of "control" even amplifies their "signal", making it more effective.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:47 .

[masster blaster]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

So Shepard doesn't have Reaper tech because the TIM that isn't really TIM but rather an indoctrination hallucination from all the Reaper tech didn't say "hey, you're full of Reaper tech"? ... What? That makes less sense than "my subjects keep creating AI's that kill them, I better make an AI to fix the situation".

They only used Reaper tech on Grayson? That's why the video logs talk about the soldiers hearing voices? That's why some of the Cerberus troops speak a strange gibberish that could only be Reaper language? No. Just no.

TIM wanted control for himself, and surely wouldn't allow the Reapers to take over his work by implanting his most precious subject with their tech. But the Reapers don't need their "tech" in Shepard in order to get a hold on him : they just need to get hold of TIM, which they finally get at some point. By controlling TIM, they only exert their control through him to whoever they wish under his control.

SO did Saren's brother. He wanted to Control the Meta Turains but couldn't because something else did the Reapers.Also
like I said it's 50/50, and I think that the Reapers have used TIM ever
since he clamed the title TIM because the things that Cerberus has done
to all the aliens, and even their own kind is just horrific, and degrading.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:53 .

[Iconoclaste]

Sometimes it's difficult to understand your posts, Masster! lol

[Arashi08]

Rifneno wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

But then what was the point of putting Reaper Tech in Shepard and never telling the player?

<points at thread title>

Sooo...then what?  we should just assume the Reaper tech is indoctrinating Shepard even though it isn't required for indoctrination? and maybe hope that DLC will reveal it later?  I'm sorry but that is rather poor exposition imo.

[masster blaster]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Sometimes it's difficult to understand your posts, Masster! lol

Ya i know, and I am pointing out that Saren's brother wanted Controle but it failed, and now TIM does, and we Shepard are now in TIM's shoes, but we are diffrent,

[masster blaster]

Arashi08 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

But then what was the point of putting Reaper Tech in Shepard and never telling the player?

<points at thread title>

Sooo...then what?  we should just assume the Reaper tech is indoctrinating Shepard even though it isn't required for indoctrination? and maybe hope that DLC will reveal it later?  I'm sorry but that is rather poor exposition imo.

Yes and no, you see in ME2, when SHepard is being put back together, we can get a good look at the implants, and all they have to do is add a new little scene on the Cerberus station terminal, and boom it's done.

[Iconoclaste]

If the Reapers had TIM indoctrinated soon in the chronology of the series, then they surely knew for long enough that TIM was seeking control for himself, and working to steal "control" from the Reaper's signal and methods. They could have destroyed or targeted Cerberus earlier in the series to stop him, but they did not. Instead, they let him free to the point of getting himself "modded" to have effective control on his "subjects", making it much easier for them to try to indoctrinate or control TIM's targets. He did all the hard work for them, in essence, and was simply used as amplifier for their signal later in the game.

[masster blaster]

Iconoclaste wrote...

If the Reapers had TIM indoctrinated soon in the chronology of the series, then they surely knew for long enough that TIM was seeking control for himself, and working to steal "control" from the Reaper's signal and methods. They could have destroyed or targeted Cerberus earlier in the series to stop him, but they did not. Instead, they let him free to the point of getting himself "modded" to have effective control on his "subjects", making it much easier for them to try to indoctrinate or control TIM's targets. He did all the hard work for them, in essence, and was simply used as amplifier for their signal later in the game.

Yes that's my point Cerberus is the Reaper idea, since he himself said Cerberus is an idea. Also I would like to point out, that we can join the Reapers/Cerberus if we picked Control, and Synthesis.

Well if IT is true, and I forgot that TIM said " You never trully believed in us." You mean Cerberus, or the Reapers.

I know he means Cerberus, but I am just saying somethings are not what they mean.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:08 .

[masster blaster]

Also I think we talked about this, but a Catalyst in Chemistry is to break down chemicals, in which case the Catalyst is to break Shepard of what he/she is and make Shepard his own.

[Gwyphon]

Iconoclaste wrote...

If the Reapers had TIM indoctrinated soon in the chronology of the series, then they surely knew for long enough that TIM was seeking control for himself, and working to steal "control" from the Reaper's signal and methods. They could have destroyed or targeted Cerberus earlier in the series to stop him, but they did not. Instead, they let him free to the point of getting himself "modded" to have effective control on his "subjects", making it much easier for them to try to indoctrinate or control TIM's targets. He did all the hard work for them, in essence, and was simply used as amplifier for their signal later in the game.

There's never really been an example in the series when a similar form of indoctrination is used, besides Harbinger. There's no proof that any other reaper can achieve this (Harbinger is slowly turning out to be more and more significant in ME3). So I don't really think TIM could achieve direct control on some one who apparently has the will to speak freely. And there's no real reason for TIM to have indoctrination amplifiers anyway, as his entire organisation already follows him without question. You just have to control him and you have all of cerberus (similar to the Collector General)

masster blaster wrote...

Also I think we talked about
this, but a Catalyst in Chemistry is to break down chemicals, in which
case the Catalyst is to break Shepard of what he/she is and make Shepard
his own.

Not quite. It's to speed up reaction rate (or initiate it) without partaking in the chemical reaction itself.

Modifié par Gwyphon, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:15 .

[masster blaster]

Gwyphon wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

If the Reapers had TIM indoctrinated soon in the chronology of the series, then they surely knew for long enough that TIM was seeking control for himself, and working to steal "control" from the Reaper's signal and methods. They could have destroyed or targeted Cerberus earlier in the series to stop him, but they did not. Instead, they let him free to the point of getting himself "modded" to have effective control on his "subjects", making it much easier for them to try to indoctrinate or control TIM's targets. He did all the hard work for them, in essence, and was simply used as amplifier for their signal later in the game.

There's never really been an example in the series when a similar form of indoctrination is used, besides Harbinger. There's no proof that any other reaper can achieve this (Harbinger is slowly turning out to be more and more significant in ME3). So I don't really think TIM could achieve direct control on some one who apparently has the will to speak freely. And there's no real reason for TIM to have indoctrination amplifiers anyway, as his entire organisation already follows him without question. You just have to control him and you have all of cerberus (similar to the Collector General)

masster blaster wrote...

Also I think we talked about
this, but a Catalyst in Chemistry is to break down chemicals, in which
case the Catalyst is to break Shepard of what he/she is and make Shepard
his own.

Not quite. It's to speed up reaction rate (or initiate it) without partaking in the chemical reaction itself.

Ha I thought as much, and that could mean the Catalyst is speeding up the Indoctrination, since time is running our for Shepard, and the assets that are coming to go get Shepard.

[Iconoclaste]

Gwyphon wrote...

There's never really been an example in the series when a similar form of indoctrination is used, besides Harbinger. There's no proof that any other reaper can achieve this (Harbinger is slowly turning out to be more and more significant in ME3). So I don't really think TIM could achieve direct control on some one who apparently has the will to speak freely. And there's no real reason for TIM to have indoctrination amplifiers anyway, as his entire organisation already follows him without question. You just have to control him and you have all of cerberus (similar to the Collector General)

In the Codex, if I'm not mistaken, the "amplification" of the Reaper's signal through indoctrinated subjects is explained, and it was proposed on this very thread some time ago. I never wrote that TIM had "indoctrination amplifiers". TIM doesn't acquire his "capacity to control" until he gets "upgraded", at some point just prior the attack of his base by the Alliance, so it is impossible to see an example of TIM's capacity to control earlier in the game. In the confrontation scene on the Citadel, he seems able (from literal perspective) to control both Shepard's and Anderson's movements, but not the minds.

[masster blaster]

Okay guys I have to go to bed, so night everyone, and it's great to be back for a while.

[Rifneno]

Arashi08 wrote...

Sooo...then what? we should just assume the Reaper tech is indoctrinating Shepard even though it isn't required for indoctrination? and maybe hope that DLC will reveal it later? I'm sorry but that is rather poor exposition imo.

Jesus Christ. Go back and reread. There was a case made for it. You just dismissed it by "nuh uh because they would've told us", by which logic a couple weeks ago the Reapers wiped out their masters ages ago and a year ago EDI wasn't based on the Luna VI. Just because you flatly dismiss things because it wasn't spelled out for you doesn't mean there's nothing there.

[Iconoclaste]

Now don't get all upset over details, there's much room for speculation on either parts.

Good night Masster, I will also get horizontal now.