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[Lokanaiya]

If Shepard was implanted with Reaper tech, how has he lasted probably more than a year without becoming indoctrinated? Especially considering he never showed any signs of it until after being by Rho, and then later in ME3. If he had Reaper implants, the choice for whether to keep or destroy the Collector base should have automatically been keep. I mean, Shepard has an extremely strong will, but he's not, say, Batman. He'd have to be almost immune to indoctrination in order to last as long as he has.

Heck, what's even the point of choosing Destroy and freeing yourself from indoctrination if Shepard's constantly being indoctrinated?

Edit: Top!

Modifié par Lokanaiya, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:40 .

[Arashi08]

Rifneno wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Sooo...then what? we should just assume the Reaper tech is indoctrinating Shepard even though it isn't required for indoctrination? and maybe hope that DLC will reveal it later? I'm sorry but that is rather poor exposition imo.

Jesus Christ. Go back and reread. There was a case made for it. You just dismissed it by "nuh uh because they would've told us", by which logic a couple weeks ago the Reapers wiped out their masters ages ago and a year ago EDI wasn't based on the Luna VI. Just because you flatly dismiss things because it wasn't spelled out for you doesn't mean there's nothing there.

Don't start putting words in my mouth (or more accurately, in my posts)

From a storytelling perspective, it isn't a very good case, if IT is the path the game is going down then the only way they can reveal Shepard having Reaper tech is in DLC, which is a really weak way to reveal it imo.  if the endings are literal then we just have to use our imaginations.

But honestly, I just don't care enough about this topic to argue needlessly about it; maybe Shepard does have Reaper tech, I seriously doubt it, but if you feel there is a case for it, then fine.  I'm sure you have valid reasons, even if I don't agree with them. 

Still, your attitude still gets on my nerves, as it always has, so im gonna opt out if this pointless argument before I end up saying something that causes you to throw a childish tantrum...
Night.

Modifié par Arashi08, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:44 .

[Rifneno]

Lokanaiya wrote...

If Shepard was implanted with Reaper tech, how has he lasted probably more than a year without becoming indoctrinated? Especially considering he never showed any signs of it until after being by Rho, and then later in ME3. If he had Reaper implants, the choice for whether to keep or destroy the Collector base should have automatically been keep. I mean, Shepard has an extremely strong will, but he's not, say, Batman. He'd have to be almost immune to indoctrination in order to last as long as he has.

Heck, what's even the point of choosing Destroy and freeing yourself from indoctrination if Shepard's constantly being indoctrinated?

Batman sucks. We don't know how long the "slow, patient indoctrination" takes nor do we know the strength of the signal if Shepard does have Reaper tech from Project Lazarus. And yes, obviously Shepard is highly resistant. OTOH, exactly what is the source of Shepard's indoctrination otherwise? He's been around tons of Reaper tech but never got long periods of time. The only exception is Object Rho, but that's sketchy on whether it's canon or not.

Arashi08 wrote...

Don't start putting words in my mouth (or more accurately, in my posts)

From a storytelling perspective, it isn't a very good case, if IT is the path the game is going down then the only way they can reveal Shepard having Reaper tech is in DLC, which is a really weak way to reveal it imo. if the endings are literal then we just have to use our imaginations.

But honestly, I just don't care enough about this topic to argue needlessly about it; maybe Shepard does have Reaper tech, I seriously doubt it, but if you feel there is a case for it, then fine. I'm sure you have valid reasons, even if I don't agree with them.

Still, your attitude still gets on my nerves, as it always has, so im gonna opt out if this pointless argument before I end up saying something that causes you to throw a childish tantrum...
Night.

OMG. You're actually still going on about how it's not revealed in the game. Do you not understand that confirming Shepard is full of Reaper tech would basically confirm IT?

I couldn't care less what you think of my attitude, but the fact that you have to bite your lip and stomp off kind of indicates you're the one on the verge of a tantrum. Protip: If one phrase of exasperated annoyance bothers you so much, try actually thinking before posting. You'll be less annoying that way.

[Arashi08]

Lokanaiya wrote...

If Shepard was implanted with Reaper tech, how has he lasted probably more than a year without becoming indoctrinated? Especially considering he never showed any signs of it until after being by Rho, and then later in ME3. If he had Reaper implants, the choice for whether to keep or destroy the Collector base should have automatically been keep. I mean, Shepard has an extremely strong will, but he's not, say, Batman. He'd have to be almost immune to indoctrination in order to last as long as he has.

Heck, what's even the point of choosing Destroy and freeing yourself from indoctrination if Shepard's constantly being indoctrinated?

Edit: Top!

That's kinda where I was going too, but I was probably too tired to wirte this part lol.

[Arashi08]

Rifneno wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

If Shepard was implanted with Reaper tech, how has he lasted probably more than a year without becoming indoctrinated? Especially considering he never showed any signs of it until after being by Rho, and then later in ME3. If he had Reaper implants, the choice for whether to keep or destroy the Collector base should have automatically been keep. I mean, Shepard has an extremely strong will, but he's not, say, Batman. He'd have to be almost immune to indoctrination in order to last as long as he has.

Heck, what's even the point of choosing Destroy and freeing yourself from indoctrination if Shepard's constantly being indoctrinated?

Batman sucks. We don't know how long the "slow, patient indoctrination" takes nor do we know the strength of the signal if Shepard does have Reaper tech from Project Lazarus. And yes, obviously Shepard is highly resistant. OTOH, exactly what is the source of Shepard's indoctrination otherwise? He's been around tons of Reaper tech but never got long periods of time. The only exception is Object Rho, but that's sketchy on whether it's canon or not.

Arashi08 wrote...

Don't start putting words in my mouth (or more accurately, in my posts)

From a storytelling perspective, it isn't a very good case, if IT is the path the game is going down then the only way they can reveal Shepard having Reaper tech is in DLC, which is a really weak way to reveal it imo. if the endings are literal then we just have to use our imaginations.

But honestly, I just don't care enough about this topic to argue needlessly about it; maybe Shepard does have Reaper tech, I seriously doubt it, but if you feel there is a case for it, then fine. I'm sure you have valid reasons, even if I don't agree with them.

Still, your attitude still gets on my nerves, as it always has, so im gonna opt out if this pointless argument before I end up saying something that causes you to throw a childish tantrum...
Night.

OMG. You're actually still going on about how it's not revealed in the game. Do you not understand that confirming Shepard is full of Reaper tech would basically confirm IT?

I couldn't care less what you think of my attitude, but the fact that you have to bite your lip and stomp off kind of indicates you're the one on the verge of a tantrum. Protip: If one phrase of exasperated annoyance bothers you so much, try actually thinking before posting. You'll be less annoying that way.

You are blandly predictable, I tried to be polite about this, maybe I was a little cranky because I was tired, but I still tried to maintain my politeness, whereas you are so keen to get upset with me just because I don't think the same way as you. continue to sit in your little world where you know so much about someone by reading their posts and thinking they stoop to your level of fuming.  I'm done with you.

[Rifneno]

u mad?

[Lokanaiya]

Rifneno, seriously, you are being pretty rude and obnoxious. It's probably a good idea for me to leave, too, since I need to go to sleep. But, for your information, Arrival has been stated to be canon and even if it hadn't there are still LOTS of times for Shep to get indoctrinated. As someone else (byne?) put it, the question isn't what got Shepard indoctrinated in the first place, it's how he hasn't been indoctrinated by now. Also, I'm pretty sure that Grayson can be used as an example of how quickly implants can indoctrinate you.

Anyways, off to bed!

[Arashi08]

masster blaster wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

But then what was the point of putting Reaper Tech in Shepard and never telling the player?

<points at thread title>

Sooo...then what?  we should just assume the Reaper tech is indoctrinating Shepard even though it isn't required for indoctrination? and maybe hope that DLC will reveal it later?  I'm sorry but that is rather poor exposition imo.

Yes and no, you see in ME2, when SHepard is being put back together, we can get a good look at the implants, and all they have to do is add a new little scene on the Cerberus station terminal, and boom it's done.

I suppose they could, it just seems like weak exposition to me.  Reaper tech just seems like something that's too dangerous that TIM wouldn't use it, at least not at that point.  I'm not saying it isn't possible, it just seems like a really weird thing to hide from the player, even if IT proves true.

[Rifneno]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Rifneno, seriously, you are being pretty rude and obnoxious. It's probably a good idea for me to leave, too, since I need to go to sleep. But, for your information, Arrival has been stated to be canon and even if it hadn't there are still LOTS of times for Shep to get indoctrinated. As someone else (byne?) put it, the question isn't what got Shepard indoctrinated in the first place, it's how he hasn't been indoctrinated by now. Also, I'm pretty sure that Grayson can be used as an example of how quickly implants can indoctrinate you.

Anyways, off to bed!

- Arrival was not stated to be canon, that was a conclusion drawn upon it being mentioned in the Vega backstory comic. Which is why it's even debatable that it's canon.
- No, it isn't. "Slow, patient indoctrination" requires time, and Shepard is highly resistant. Most of the Reaper tech Shepard is around is on optional side quests and for very short periods of time.
- Grayson had self-replicating nanites injected directly into his brain. Lil bit different. They also turned him into a synthetic hybrid abomination. He was basically a superhusk. The Reapers didn't give a damn about Grayson. They want Shepard as he is so they can harness his strength.

[Gwyphon]

Rifneno wrote...

- Arrival was not stated to be canon, that was a conclusion drawn upon it being mentioned in the Vega backstory comic. Which is why it's even debatable that it's canon.

It's definately cannon. If you don't do it your starting war asset score is lower due to Hacket sending a group of marines to do the job instead, except they don't escape.

[Rifneno]

Gwyphon wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

- Arrival was not stated to be canon, that was a conclusion drawn upon it being mentioned in the Vega backstory comic. Which is why it's even debatable that it's canon.

It's definately cannon. If you don't do it your starting war asset score is lower due to Hacket sending a group of marines to do the job instead, except they don't escape.

No, I mean if it's canon whether Shepard does it.  We're debating about whether Object Rho can count as what indoctrinated Shepard.

[Gwyphon]

Rifneno wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

- Arrival was not stated to be canon, that was a conclusion drawn upon it being mentioned in the Vega backstory comic. Which is why it's even debatable that it's canon.

It's definately cannon. If you don't do it your starting war asset score is lower due to Hacket sending a group of marines to do the job instead, except they don't escape.

No, I mean if it's canon whether Shepard does it.  We're debating about whether Object Rho can count as what indoctrinated Shepard.

Ah right. Apologies.
Shepard being arrested doesn't exactly make sense without the Arrival though. I'm going to troll the interwebs for a quote from a developer or something. You may well be right though.

[Arashi08]

Gwyphon wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

- Arrival was not stated to be canon, that was a conclusion drawn upon it being mentioned in the Vega backstory comic. Which is why it's even debatable that it's canon.

It's definately cannon. If you don't do it your starting war asset score is lower due to Hacket sending a group of marines to do the job instead, except they don't escape.

No, I mean if it's canon whether Shepard does it.  We're debating about whether Object Rho can count as what indoctrinated Shepard.

Ah right. Apologies.
Shepard being arrested doesn't exactly make sense without the Arrival though. I'm going to troll the interwebs for a quote from a developer or something. You may well be right though.

According to some posters here, one of the more recent comics apparently mentions Shepard's involvement in the events in the Bahak system.  I'm not sure which though, but that might narrow down your search, assuming it is accurate.

[Big_Boss9]

Gwyphon wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

- Arrival was not stated to be canon, that was a conclusion drawn upon it being mentioned in the Vega backstory comic. Which is why it's even debatable that it's canon.

It's definately cannon. If you don't do it your starting war asset score is lower due to Hacket sending a group of marines to do the job instead, except they don't escape.

No, I mean if it's canon whether Shepard does it.  We're debating about whether Object Rho can count as what indoctrinated Shepard.

Ah right. Apologies.
Shepard being arrested doesn't exactly make sense without the Arrival though. I'm going to troll the interwebs for a quote from a developer or something. You may well be right though.

I could've sworn several posters in the history of this thread have claimed that Hudson and/or Walters said that Arrival was canon, but I never saw a source. At any rate, even without Arrival, Shepard's involvement with Cerberus would've been enough for him to be "detained".

Modifié par Big_Boss9, 07 septembre 2012 - 05:55 .

[Gwyphon]

Arashi08 wrote...

According to some posters here, one of the more recent comics apparently mentions Shepard's involvement in the events in the Bahak system.  I'm not sure which though, but that might narrow down your search, assuming it is accurate.

Ha! Thanks! First line of  Mass Effect Conviction, and I quote:

"Somewhere deep in the heart of Omega. Days after the annihilation of a Batarian system by Commander Shepard."

[Rifneno]

Gwyphon wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

According to some posters here, one of the more recent comics apparently mentions Shepard's involvement in the events in the Bahak system.  I'm not sure which though, but that might narrow down your search, assuming it is accurate.

Ha! Thanks! First line of  Mass Effect Conviction, and I quote:

"Somewhere deep in the heart of Omega. Days after the annihilation of a Batarian system by Commander Shepard."

Yeah, that's what I meant in this post.  But it's still sketchy...  the game indicates it's not canon, but we've never had a comic that wasn't canon.  So we don't really know unless one of the writers says that it's canon Shepard did it.  Which, AFAIK, they haven't said either way.

[Schachmatt123]

Some random quotes from Hudson and Walters regarding Arrival:

C. Hudson:

The DLC 'Arrival' is basically the last piece of story that bridges
the two games. Admiral Hackett sends you to investigate this mass relay
where the Reapers are going to make their entry point into the galaxy
because their original plan - the Citadel - is closed off.
You have to sacrifice thousands of people in order to slam that door
shut on the Reapers. So Shepard's kind of stuck trying to explain all
this stuff. But as you're doing that the Reapers actually arrive and
take the Earth.

Link



M. Walters about working with canon in the literature:

Certainly for some events that occurred we have to go with a
certain cannon version. So there's a chance that what you read might not be
exactly the events you remember, but for the most part what we were able to do
is take the time frame and events that could happen with any Shepard and I
think a lot of it will come out in the details when they see it and people will
understand.

Link



M. Walters on working with canon in the Conviction comic:

If you'll notice in the comics we're very
careful to sort of avoid certain things. We never see Shepard. If
you'll notice in the last comic, Conviction
with James Vega we had a little shot in there of Shepard at one point
shackled. But really we had to keep that ambiguous - is it a male or a
female - so yeah we're very careful to talk about things in the comics
that we know happened.

Link

Modifié par Schachmatt, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:56 .

[Mystical Taurus]

For the argument over Shepard being implanted with Reaper tech, remeber this as well - Wilson was a traitor, and he had access to Shepard. He helped Miranda with injections when Shepard prematurely awoke, and he was the one who first assured Miranda Shepard's body was still salvageable. So he had medical access at least at times.

[Arian Dynas]

Rifneno wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

Rifneno, seriously, you are being pretty rude and obnoxious. It's probably a good idea for me to leave, too, since I need to go to sleep. But, for your information, Arrival has been stated to be canon and even if it hadn't there are still LOTS of times for Shep to get indoctrinated. As someone else (byne?) put it, the question isn't what got Shepard indoctrinated in the first place, it's how he hasn't been indoctrinated by now. Also, I'm pretty sure that Grayson can be used as an example of how quickly implants can indoctrinate you.

Anyways, off to bed!

- Arrival was not stated to be canon, that was a conclusion drawn upon it being mentioned in the Vega backstory comic. Which is why it's even debatable that it's canon.
- No, it isn't. "Slow, patient indoctrination" requires time, and Shepard is highly resistant. Most of the Reaper tech Shepard is around is on optional side quests and for very short periods of time.
- Grayson had self-replicating nanites injected directly into his brain. Lil bit different. They also turned him into a synthetic hybrid abomination. He was basically a superhusk. The Reapers didn't give a damn about Grayson. They want Shepard as he is so they can harness his strength.

-Arrival is canon. It was in a comic, the comics are stated to be canon, the events of the comic were referenced in the game. Quod erat demonstrandum.

-Slow indoctrination does take time, and Shepard has shown himself to have superior willpower. He could potentially resist for a very long time from initial exposure, though he does have near constant exposure due to his missions, so his time is surely running out.

-Agreed.

Also, stop fighting. We have enough people trying to divide us without doing it ourselves. Disagree, but do so respectfully. Disagreement does not mean "I think you're wrong and or stupid for thinking that." it means "I do not feel that your conclusion is correct in my personal opinion, but I respect you."

Capisce?

[RavenEyry]

Schachmatt wrote...
Quotes

Translation: arrival totally happened whatever your assets say.

[Paulinesh]

okay, I found one more proof that Shepard's dreams are parts of indoctrination process.

After Tuchanka, after Mordin dies (oh, I cried at this point during my first playthrough), on the Normandy Shepard sees a dream about Ashley! Why Ashley? She wasn't really a good friend to Shepard with all her hatred towards aliens.

Why not Mordin?

Reapers just don't know yet that he died. So they put someone else into the dream :-)

[SubAstris]

RavenEyry wrote...

Schachmatt wrote...
Quotes

Translation: arrival totally happened whatever your assets say.

The events of Arrival, yeah

[Rifneno]

Schachmatt wrote...

M. Walters about working with canon in the literature:

Certainly for some events that occurred we have to go with a
certain cannon version. So there's a chance that what you read might not be
exactly the events you remember, but for the most part what we were able to do
is take the time frame and events that could happen with any Shepard and I
think a lot of it will come out in the details when they see it and people will
understand.

A little roundabout, but that definitely seems to imply Arrival is canon.

Arian Dynas wrote...

-Arrival is canon. It was in a comic, the comics are stated to be canon, the events of the comic were referenced in the game. Quod erat demonstrandum.

-Slow indoctrination does take time, and Shepard has shown himself to have superior willpower. He could potentially resist for a very long time from initial exposure, though he does have near constant exposure due to his missions, so his time is surely running out.

-Agreed.

Also, stop fighting. We have enough people trying to divide us without doing it ourselves. Disagree, but do so respectfully. Disagreement does not mean "I think you're wrong and or stupid for thinking that." it means "I do not feel that your conclusion is correct in my personal opinion, but I respect you."

Capisce?

- That's exactly the point. They aren't referenced in the game if the imported Shepard didn't do them. P.S. Latin is dead.

- He didn't have near constant exposure, at least prior to ME3. And the indoctrination effects are already clear pretty much at the opening bell of ME3.

- If someone wants to get bent out of shape over one phrase of exasperated annoyance, they shouldn't be exasperatingly annoying. This includes, but is not limited to, repeating "nuh uh because they would've told us flat out" constantly in a thread about searching for clues and subtext in a game where the developers said they hid clues and subtext. Capiscé?

[SubAstris]

Paulinesh wrote...

okay, I found one more proof that Shepard's dreams are parts of indoctrination process.

After Tuchanka, after Mordin dies (oh, I cried at this point during my first playthrough), on the Normandy Shepard sees a dream about Ashley! Why Ashley? She wasn't really a good friend to Shepard with all her hatred towards aliens.

Why not Mordin?

Reapers just don't know yet that he died. So they put someone else into the dream :-)

Ashley was still a comrade, and therefore important to Shepard (admittedly it does differ depending on how you play him/her). And why wouldn't the Reapers know he died anyway if Shep was in the initial stages of indoctrination?

[Ace7]

Now that most of us have established Arrival as canon, are we saying that this is the turning point for Shepard and his resistance to Indoctrination?

"your mind will be ours........."

Also, how did Harby transmit his holographic image to Shepard at the end of Arrival? Through object Rho or Implants? I wonder.....

Modifié par Ace7, 07 septembre 2012 - 10:33 .