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[Paulinesh]

SubAstris wrote...

Paulinesh wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Does Leviathan basically mean Catalyst exists, ITers?

No, Leviathans din't even know what Crucible purpose was. They saw it was being built in many cycles, but it was never completed.

So it wasn't Leviathans who created the Crucible. They created intelligence (the one who called himself catalyst).

I wasn't talking about the Crucible, so yeah, the Intelligence/Catalyst exists

It exists and it is lying! When you ask it in the end about Leviathans and it's betrayal, it just says something like "The creators shall be destroyed!!!"

[byne]

SubAstris wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Leviathan does confirm the existence of some AI, if that is what you mean. But that's about all the literal interpretation gets.

IT gets a lot of help from Leviathan.

What other AI could it reasonably be? What other character in the ME series who we have been introduced to fits that bill except the Catalyst?

In what way does it get help IT?

Leviathan confirms the existence of an AI, sure. Whether we actually met that AI is up for debate. Shep could just be seeing the godchild because she expects to see an AI.

IT is helped by Leviathan because the scene where you meet the godchild is extremely similar to when Leviathan controls Shepard. Down to the fact that you start on your hands and knees, and only get up once Levy/Godchild tells you to.

[SubAstris]

Paulinesh wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Paulinesh wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Does Leviathan basically mean Catalyst exists, ITers?

No, Leviathans din't even know what Crucible purpose was. They saw it was being built in many cycles, but it was never completed.

So it wasn't Leviathans who created the Crucible. They created intelligence (the one who called himself catalyst).

I wasn't talking about the Crucible, so yeah, the Intelligence/Catalyst exists

It exists and it is lying! When you ask it in the end about Leviathans and it's betrayal, it just says something like "The creators shall be destroyed!!!"

The Catalyst doesn't put it in quite those terms, but that is essentially what he is saying. I'm not sure that for most people's views on IT, the Catalyst existing in such a form (as the Intelligence) and the theory are incompatible (could be wrong).

[Andromidius]

SubAstris wrote...

I wasn't talking about the Crucible, so yeah, the Intelligence/Catalyst exists

That's a leap of logic right there.

Even if Leviathan said 'The Catalyst is the AI we created' it doesn't mean what claims to be the Catalyst is telling the truth.

But as it was, all Leviathan said was that there was an AI they created that created the Reapers.  That's it.

That would be like saying a human created something, and then leaping to the conclusion that its a specific human.  There's not enough information to draw that conclusion honestly.

So yeah, stop it.

[FifthBeatle]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Yesterday I was watching Clevernoob's latest documentary on the EC.

He said something that most of us wouldn't agree with, but I forgot what it was. Sorry, it was very late. *slaps self*

Furthermore, he has this crazy theory that the Leviathans designed the Crucible as a fail-safe. According to him, the Leviathans implemented the control and synthesis options. Control for when things went wrong, synthesis because it was their ultimate goal (???) and destroy for if all else failed. I was very tired and I have remembering the details, but it makes no sense at all.

First of all, they didn't create the Reapers, they created the AI. The AI created the Reapers. So why would the Leviathans build a device to control Reapers?

But more importantly: how does that theory even support IT? It's a literal interpretation. Maybe I misunderstood, so correct me if I'm wrong.

And then at the end he totally misses out on pointing out the differences between the fighting soldier scene in destroy and in control/synthesis

Also, I can't believe someone can be so longwinded. He just keeps explaining the same point over and over, all the while looping the same fragments of the same game footage over and over. It's like a hypnotic mantra.

I appreciate what he's trying to do, but I'm not a fan.

Well, to elaborate on his idea and tie it into IT (not that I fully agree or disagree with it):

-The Leviathans created the AI who eventually turned on them and created the Reapers who started wiping out the Leviathans. 
-Wanting to fix the mess they created, the Leviathans designed a device that could stop the AI and the Reapers.
-However, because the Leviathans did not cooperate with the other species in the galaxy they were unable to have enough support to build the device.
-So, the Leviathans left plans for the device for future cycles to build, while they watched and waited until it was all clear.
-However, the key to the device is that it would take a cycle where the entire galaxy works together to build it, which is why the Protheans were unable to complete it.
-This ties into IT because Shepard is that strong willed individual who others follow without question, and the Reapers who believed that organics would never be able to complete it, need to indoctrinate Shepard to stop it from turning it on.

Still, a lot of these points are reaching to say the least, but Bioware did choose to name the device the crucible which implies that it is a trial or test. That trial could be of the entire galaxy to see if they can come together to build it and/or it can be a trial of Shepard's will to see if he will "melt" under the Reaper's influence. 

[DoomsdayDevice]

^^^^ Okay, that makes more sense, FifthBeatle, thanks. I still don't get why they would implement synthesis though.

SubAstris wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Leviathan does confirm the existence of some AI, if that is what you mean. But that's about all the literal interpretation gets.

IT gets a lot of help from Leviathan.

What other AI could it reasonably be? What other character in the ME series who we have been introduced to fits that bill except the Catalyst?

In what way does it get help IT?

You misunderstand. What I mean is, just because the Leviathans made that AI that created the Reapers, does not mean what we see at the end of the game is real.

If IT is true, Harbinger can take any idea from your mind and use it.

And even if he doesn't take the info from Shep's mind, there's nothing stopping him from pretending to be something he only knows about.

-------------

WARNING: HEAVY LEVIATHAN SPOILERS

In what ways does Leviathan help IT?

- Leviathan establishes that the Leviathans (the species that made the AI that created the Reapers by harvesting his creators) have a mind control power that can create realistic visual illusions.
- The Leviathan says that Shepard's nature will be revealed to "them" (the Leviathan(s)), meaning that they can read his mind.
- Furthermore the Leviathan tells you that Shepard's mind is his now, and that he will use Shepard's memories to give a voice to his words. (As he says this, your surroundings change and you actually see a woman speaking to you that you met earlier in the DLC.) The character changes several times while Shepard dips in and out of the illusion.
- The Leviathan explains to you that all Reapers have this abillity to influence organics, and that over time they have developed it and perfected it to indoctrination. In other words, the Reapers' mind controlling abilities are even more advanced than the Leviathan's.

This really strengthens IT because it helps establish that the Reapers can actually build entire visual and auditory hallucinations from Shepard's memories, like IT claims they do, and that they can read his mind.

Furthermore, when the mind control is over, Shepard has a nosebleed. Just like on the citadel after the confrontation with TIM.

Also, when the mind control begins, Shepard is shown on hands and knees, the exact same pose he was in near Object Rho and in the decision chamber when he meets the 'catalyst'.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 07 septembre 2012 - 08:55 .

[SubAstris]

byne wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Leviathan does confirm the existence of some AI, if that is what you mean. But that's about all the literal interpretation gets.

IT gets a lot of help from Leviathan.

What other AI could it reasonably be? What other character in the ME series who we have been introduced to fits that bill except the Catalyst?

In what way does it get help IT?

Leviathan confirms the existence of an AI, sure. Whether we actually met that AI is up for debate. Shep could just be seeing the godchild because she expects to see an AI.

IT is helped by Leviathan because the scene where you meet the godchild is extremely similar to when Leviathan controls Shepard. Down to the fact that you start on your hands and knees, and only get up once Levy/Godchild tells you to.

So when is the "Intelligence", who just so happens to have very similar features to that of the Catalyst, gonna turn up?

[spotlessvoid]

I swore to myself I was done, guess I have no self restraint. You're a better man than I Jgibson....


No SunAstris. No


IT is not impacted by the catalyst existing. Everything IT designated as Harbinger can just as easily apply to the catalyst anyways.

The Leviathan never confirm anything about the crucible. Which itself is very hard to believe. Organic races have been building it cycle after cycle, yet Leviathan don't have a single idea what it's for.... right

You can't build something that complex without knowing what you're building, or following the plans of someone who did. Meaning someone figured it out. How could one of the cycles figure it out during a Reaper invasion, while the Leviathan have not the slightest clue what it does?

[paxxton]

SubAstris wrote...

byne wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Leviathan does confirm the existence of some AI, if that is what you mean. But that's about all the literal interpretation gets.

IT gets a lot of help from Leviathan.

What other AI could it reasonably be? What other character in the ME series who we have been introduced to fits that bill except the Catalyst?

In what way does it get help IT?

Leviathan confirms the existence of an AI, sure. Whether we actually met that AI is up for debate. Shep could just be seeing the godchild because she expects to see an AI.

IT is helped by Leviathan because the scene where you meet the godchild is extremely similar to when Leviathan controls Shepard. Down to the fact that you start on your hands and knees, and only get up once Levy/Godchild tells you to.

So when is the "Intelligence", who just so happens to have very similar features to that of the Catalyst, gonna turn up?

The Catalyst is fake! Don't you see!

Modifié par paxxton, 07 septembre 2012 - 09:04 .

[demersel]

SubAstris wrote...

Does Leviathan basically mean Catalyst exists, ITers?

No. :innocent:

[spotlessvoid]

5th Beatle...

Why would the Leviathan design a device to stop the Reapers and then make it incredibly difficult to build/use? If anything they would tell the organics "Build thisReaper gun, push the red button."

[SubAstris]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I swore to myself I was done, guess I have no self restraint. You're a better man than I Jgibson....


No SunAstris. No


IT is not impacted by the catalyst existing. Everything IT designated as Harbinger can just as easily apply to the catalyst anyways.

The Leviathan never confirm anything about the crucible. Which itself is very hard to believe. Organic races have been building it cycle after cycle, yet Leviathan don't have a single idea what it's for.... right

You can't build something that complex without knowing what you're building, or following the plans of someone who did. Meaning someone figured it out. How could one of the cycles figure it out during a Reaper invasion, while the Leviathan have not the slightest clue what it does?

I guess they didn't want to ruin the surprise of people who were playing Leviathan who hadn't finished the story yet.

Because dey iz cleva

[spotlessvoid]

Ah SubAstris....monkey carcasses decomposing on disintegrated keyboards writing theory. I'm familiar with it. It's as much speculation as IT.

[paxxton]

Maybe Leviathan forgot what the Crucible was for. jk

[demersel]

1 - you want to build the crucible. (which you have no idea what it is)
2 - you are told that in order to complete the crucible you need to something called the "Catalyst" - (which you have no idea whhat it is.)
2.5 - you go to find leviathan and he tells you about how leviathans created an A.I. and the A.I. created reapers and killed leviathhnas. And we know that leviathan was not trithfull with you. (i.e. he lies)
3 - you are told by Vendetta (who we know to be far from trustworthy, and who spent considerable amount of time in the hands of the Illusive Man) - that the catalyst is the citadel. at the same time you get the news that reapers has just taken it 9somehow) and moved the citadel to earth (somehow).
4 - you gether all your fleets and the crucible and go to earth. Once you get there you are told that the reapers are doing something big in london, and it might be connected to the arrival of the citadel (might)
5 - in a dream-like sequence of weird events you somehow get to some strange chamber where you see a transperent white kid from your dreams. He tells you that he is the catalyst. You ask him whethere he is an A.I. - he says as mach as you are an animal. (which is a sarcastic equvalent of NO) - and we know that is not entirely truthfull. - so he lies.

These are all literal.

Where in this chain of events does it says that the catalyst (the part that is needed to complete the crucible) - is an A.I.?
And where does it stated that the thing you meet at the end , that claims to be the catalyst, and that is known to lie, is the very same A.I. that leviathan told you about?

So no leviathan does not mean the Catalyst exists. )))))

[demersel]

paxxton wrote...

Maybe Leviathan forgot what the Crucible was for. jk

might be that leviathans were not the first to try to build the crucible.  
the crucible plans might be more ancient than leviathans and reapers.....just saying...

and it may have nothing to do with the whole Reapers/leviathans things.....

Modifié par demersel, 07 septembre 2012 - 09:18 .

[spotlessvoid]

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Maybe Leviathan forgot what the Crucible was for. jk

might be that leviathans were not the first to try to build the crucible.  
the crucible plans might be more ancient than leviathans and reapers.....just saying...

Reapers created the Citadel. The crucible is designed to interact with the Citadel....so I doubt it

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Maybe Leviathan forgot what the Crucible was for. jk

might be that leviathans were not the first to try to build the crucible.  
the crucible plans might be more ancient than leviathans and reapers.....just saying...

Reapers created the Citadel. The crucible is designed to interact with the Citadel....so I doubt it

The Crucible was adapted to use the Citadel.

[demersel]

Crucible might be a device with a perpuse to bring about Omega point.

Organics creating synthetics - is part of this process.

Leviathans creating reapers - to try to stop Omega point from happening. (not directly - they can have no concept of omega point, since they are already pinnacle of life, so they view synthetics just as a denger to thheir organic tools)

[DoomsdayDevice]

I wonder if SubAstris even read my reply.

[demersel]

[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...


[/quote]
 The crucible is designed to interact with the Citadel....so I doubt it
[/quote]

Says who? Vendetta? A program that known minions of reapers held in their possession for a considerable amount of time? 
For all we know we might not yet know what is the real catalyst. ))

And before you reply (but we've seen crucible docked with the citadel...) - please remeber that this is an IT discussion forum, and here we generally believe that everything between beamrun and breath scene tob e a dream...

Modifié par demersel, 07 septembre 2012 - 09:26 .

[spotlessvoid]

paxxton wrote...
The Crucible was adapted to use the Citadel.

Hmm. Still don't see how a Reaper gun would have a reason to exist before the Reapers. And given that the Reapers look like the Leviathan- I doubt they existed before the Leviathan

[demersel]

Have you read the article about Omega point? Cause it is a little crucial for understanding my current speculation. ))

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

Crucible might be a device with a perpuse to bring about Omega point.

Organics creating synthetics - is part of this process.

Leviathans creating reapers - to try to stop Omega point from happening. (not directly - they can have no concept of omega point, since they are already pinnacle of life, so they view synthetics just as a denger to thheir organic tools)

A kind of convergence to stop one type of life achieving transcendence?

[SubAstris]

Andromidius wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I wasn't talking about the Crucible, so yeah, the Intelligence/Catalyst exists

That's a leap of logic right there.

Even if Leviathan said 'The Catalyst is the AI we created' it doesn't mean what claims to be the Catalyst is telling the truth.

But as it was, all Leviathan said was that there was an AI they created that created the Reapers.  That's it.

That would be like saying a human created something, and then leaping to the conclusion that its a specific human.  There's not enough information to draw that conclusion honestly.

So yeah, stop it.

I realise, I never it did.

Your analogy's flawed given Leviathan does tell us a few details which corresponds with the character of the Catalyst