80611 réponses à ce sujet

[byne]

masster blaster wrote...

So you are neither comfirming, nor dening that I could be like Caboose at times.

I want the readers to be able interpret my comments in whatever way they wish.

[Hrothdane]

byne wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

So you are neither comfirming, nor dening that I could be like Caboose at times.

I want the readers to be able interpret my comments in whatever way they wish.

LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE

[masster blaster]

I see well speculations on ward. Water bison powers goooooo.

[Auralius Carolus]

Hrothdane wrote...

Greetings, everyone. First-time poster.

I am relatively new here, as I only became indoctrinated into the Mass Effect series recently. Having already known about the controversy about the endings (though not much about the endings themselves), I still started playing them (because of a Gamestop sale and tvtropes) and have managed to finish all three over the course of the last month and a half. As all of you probably could guess, the ending of Mass Effect 3 left quite a few questions in my mind, and I came here looking for opinions. Maybe you can chalk it up to me being an english major, but I find analysis entertaining. Thus, fan theories intrigue me, though most fail to convince of their validity. I do not know what I believe about the ending quite yet, but I am convinced that not all is as we are told.

Disregarding for the moment the idea of indoctrination and the dreamlike elements of everything post-Harbinger beam, I just cannot bring myself to take ANYTHING the Catalyst says at face value. One of my pet peeve tropes is Villains Never Lie and the Catalyst very clearly explains that he is the collective intelligence of the Reapers, thus the villain. These are villains that have proven many times to not only be extremely careful and ruthless in their plans, but are known to use manipulation so constantly that they can literally do it while brain dead for millions of years. When Shepard stands moments away from defeating them, why would they not do everything to stop him/her up to and including lying through their teeth? The Catalyst even appears in perhaps the most manipulative form the Reaper consciousness could have pulled from Shepard's mind.

This leads to a little theory I have on why the Catalyst's explanations and dialogue seems so self-contradictory and hollow (that isn't the doylist "bad writing" theory). The Reapers have never been great conversationalists in any of their appearances. Their dialogue basically amounts to "We will destroy you. It is inevitible. You could never understand us so I'm not going to explain anything, fleshbag." They talk like an angry stereotype of 90s goth kids. It seems odd that such old and otherwise savvy creatures wouldn't be a little more eloquent or convincing in their arguments, until you realize they never HAVE to. Benezia said that the longer she stayed around Saren, the more his arguments started sounding more correct. When you can reliably mind-control people and time is not an object, why bother with sophisticated speeches? Therefore, when the Catalyst/Reaper Consciousness starts contradicting himself:

Chaos is inevitible. vs. Synthesis is inevitible.
Synthesis cannot be forced. vs. You could synthesize everyone without their consent.
I was created to stop conflict between synthetics and organics. vs. ...So I start a war between them every 50k years.

Non-sequitur logic:

Given
A: Advanced organic civilizations always create synthetics
B: Synthetics will always go to war with organics
C: Chaos
D: A=>B
E: B=>C
F: An organic reached me (the Catalyst) on the Citadel
_____________________________________________
Inverse D=> !A=>!B
Inverse E=> !B=>!C
Transitive !A=>!C
Given F
Conclusion: !A=>!C is not true.

Or just flat-out refusing to give an answer:

Sherpard: Who designed the Crucible?
Catalyst: You wouldn't know them, and it would take longer than I would like to tell you.

This is because the Reaper Consciousness can't argue any better than this. Regardless of whether Shepard is partly indoctrinated or not, the Reaper's need him/her to listen to them NOW; they cannot wait for full indoctrination, nor would they be inclined to risk Shepard breaking free like Saren or TIM did.

Many of us went through this logical breakdown of the Catalyst after the game first launched, (the pre-EC content being far more contradictory than EC) and arrived at similar conclusions. Basically there is minimal evidence that the Catalyst speaks from experience and with any degree of certainty, (i.e., "The Created will always rebel against the Creators" yet there wasn't any real evidence of Reaper rebellion until the Leviathan leak, all of a month ago).

That being said, the "Leviathan", much like the Extended Cut itself, somewhat reaks of "Polishing a Turd"; in other words, forcing a perspective, largely considered distasteful or even Deus Ex Machina, down the throats of the observers.

I for one believe there is ample evidence that Reaper Indoctrination was inspired by demonic possession cases. If this is accurate, then the Catalyst is performing what is known as mimicry: an attempt for the being to take on an appearance needed to solicit a specific response from the target, in a disingenuous manner. In this case, the Catalyst is attempting to get Shepard to let down his guard and trust him, by taking on the form of a child. In both reported possession and indoctrination cases, it would seem as if this "opens a door", making the victim more vulnerable.

Anyway, I'm not about to tell you that the IT at its core is true; that's beyond my knowing. But it satisfies a narrative, logical, and personal preference-based set of considerations otherwise missing in the current endings. Feel free to stick around and ask questions or chat with us. Things can get a little wild or hairy in here, as the vast majority of material has been sifted through and analyzed, from multiple perspectives, over the last few months. But you're welcome all the same.

Coming from a historical, literal, psychological and parapsychological background, I'm just one of dozens who have been attempting to make sense of this perceived problem.

[Turbo_J]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Two things:

There are a lot of ridiculously bright white flashes in Vancouver, at least 3 off the top of my head.

It was once theorized that Shepard lost consciousness at Thessia, when he fell down into the pit, I believe. It's been a long time. It would explain how the asari didn't he Shepard after Kai Leng flew off, and Thessia probably has wind and curvy metal objects. I personally don't believe this since Cronos is the official point of no return, but we might mark it down as the point where it becomes hard to separate illusion from reality.

Also, a fun random fact I noticed when recently playing through London again: The Hades Cannon makes the "serve us" Reaper grumble before shooting down the shuttle next to you.... With a long sweeping beam that should have hit your shuttle also. It would be easier for it to hit your shuttle than not. You can argue that it didn't because the Reapers want Shepard alive, but how would the Reapers know that this one random shuttle was the one with Shepard in it? As far as I know, there's nothing to distinguish your shuttle from other Alliance ones.

Thessia also happens to be where the game takes on a quite sullen feel. Not the lost of Thessia itself, but all interactions and the mission to Sanctuary feel off. Gloomy. It just get progressively worse right up to the hit by Harbinger.

[masster blaster]

So do you think Gamble and Chris got my pm about more speculations for IT because Idid pm them Tuseday about we are low on speculations, so hope this it it.

[Arian Dynas]

estebanus wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

N7L4D wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

What is happening?

Well apparently someone is the catalyst 
And someone else is in control, no one is telling him what to do


We destroy them or they destroy us

Huh. Was there something about an IT council?

Yes. Apparently, Masster Blaster (the same guy who thinks you're Chris Priestly) thought that there was an IT council, I asked who those might be, he answered, I disagreed, and it pretty much escalated from that point.

Ayup...

Noooo such thing as a secret council of IT. Nope. Complete and total lies. Ayup. 

...

Yeah, I'll just.. um go now.

[masster blaster]

Well it was a fun off topic chat. Even though we could have been locked down, but hey why should the other threads get off topic and have all the fun.

[Lokanaiya]

Very nice post, Hrothdane, and welcome.

Master Blaster, I haven't yet, but I did see something about an IT council...? Anyways, I'll go look at them now.

[masster blaster]

And I did not say there was. I was making a joke about if we did, then these are the people, who while be in charge of the IT Council.

[Auralius Carolus]

masster blaster wrote...

So do you think Gamble and Chris got my pm about more speculations for IT because Idid pm them Tuseday about we are low on speculations, so hope this it it.

Haven't the slightest clue MB. I do, however, seriously doubt that they'll issue hints on request. Based on my analysis of vision cues from ME1 & ME2, they've had the core of the story line established for a very long time and likely won't waver more than absolutely necessary.

[masster blaster]

Loka ignor the Banshee being Chris thing. That was a mistake on my part.

[Auralius Carolus]

masster blaster wrote...

Well it was a fun off topic chat. Even though we could have been locked down, but hey why should the other threads get off topic and have all the fun.

I generally feel safe with a mild off-topic chat, but when posters start getting really heated or there is rapid posting in general, I would suspect it to attract attention. Movement, for me, is a key indicator of successful camouflage; too fast or two slow when compared to your surroundings and people tend to notice; keep calm and fluid and everything will be alright.

[BluSoldier]

I personally believe in the IT, but I think saying that the dream starts in the first 10 minutes of the game is taking things a litttle bit too far. While making the last 10 minutes of a 36 hour game a dream sequence is a reasonable thing for game designers to do, I sincerely doubt that they would make a 10 minute story with a 35:50 hour dream sequence.

Peace,
Blu Soldier

[Arian Dynas]

And, in response to the bizarre little introductions you guys are giving for the lurkers, my turn.

I'm Arian Dynas. Indoctrinationist. I'm aged 19, thin, male, perhaps moderately handsome, if you like men with long hair, caustic personalities, rake-skinny bodies and thin, Hipster-staches.

I'm an enormous nerd, write fantasy novels and play Pathfinder as a hobby. I enjoy science, history and philosophy, and enjoy dabbling (what I call dabbling, would prompt others to give me a flummoxed look and ask "How can you know all this stuff?", believe me, I've gotten it before. Alot.) in a variety of subjects, ranging from anatomy to ancient history.

I wrote the "Reaper Perfection" Theory, the Bioware Business Plan Theory, compiled the Memorial Wall, with considerable aide from many friends along the way. I created the original IT ending script enjoyed by many in this thread, and it's predecessors.

For reasons beyond my understanding, I have apparently been held up as "the best of us" by Byne. Still don't quite fathom why. O.o

While I don't suffer fools, the stupid or the intentionally obtuse particularly well, I love to teach and to educate, a good debate, as long as both sides remain respectful and professional is a great thing, as far as I am concerned. I'm also a bit of a teddy bear, and despite seeming threatening, both here and in real life, I'm not generally so bad.

I have a bit of a reputation for absurdly long posts and walls of text.

I do this for fun, and the philosophical interest of it. I won't deny I'm smart, doing that would be false humility, and would be like a tree denying it has branches, but I do attempt to make things as clear for people to understand as they can. People who's eyes don't cross seeing my posts, that is.

While I remain firm in my evidence-supported belief in IT, I do have doubts, but prefer to let logic rule my head; logic which tells me that there are too many intentional things that happened, to not have some kind of plan or underpinning.

[masster blaster]

I can't believe there is a thread, that called Tali a b**** because she sent the Normandys stealth systems to the fleet. I don't care what she did. Tali is innocent in all of this, and I am glad in my playthrough she ends up with Garrus, who I deem worth to take care of Tali.

[lex0r11]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Very nice post, Hrothdane, and welcome.

Master Blaster, I haven't yet, but I did see something about an IT council...? Anyways, I'll go look at them now.

There is no IT Council, Lokanaiya. Masster was just having too much fun today.

*tries to hide more evidence while talking*

[byne]

So, as I mentioned earlier, I am browsing both this thread, and a thread about Katawa Shoujo on a less reputable forum.

Somehow that thread is now talking about ME3 too, even though ME3 is about the farthest thing from Katawa Shoujo that I can think of.

[Arian Dynas]

lex0r11 wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

Very nice post, Hrothdane, and welcome.

Master Blaster, I haven't yet, but I did see something about an IT council...? Anyways, I'll go look at them now.

There is no IT Council, Lokanaiya. Masster was just having too much fun today.

*tries to hide more evidence while talking*

*scuffs foot*

Um...

Actually... he's right.

There's five of us. Hellish, Fellish, Starbuck, Salient Archer and myself.

We meet regularly in  a 5 way PM.

None of us have any influence, but we have joked that we formed a secret council.

[masster blaster]

Arian why do you have to give them a run down of who you are?

I think they know all of us by know, but hey why no.

No sense of not introducing yourself.

[masster blaster]

Maybe I am an undercover troll and I am trying to split the IT apart.


Ya right. I was having a fun day with the IT council and all, and tommorow, or well today I will do a nother Masster Blaster rant epsiode.

[masster blaster]

But really I love IT and would never betray IT at all.

[lex0r11]

Arian Dynas wrote...

And, in response to the bizarre little introductions you guys are giving for the lurkers, my turn.

I'm Arian Dynas. Indoctrinationist. I'm aged 19.

[...]

I have a bit of a reputation for absurdly long posts and walls of text.

[...]

Just to make it complete.

Modifié par lex0r11, 02 août 2012 - 05:29 .

[Arian Dynas]

masster blaster wrote...

Maybe I am an undercover troll and I am trying to split the IT apart.


Ya right. I was having a fun day with the IT council and all, and tommorow, or well today I will do a nother Masster Blaster rant epsiode.

Um...

I'm actually not kidding.

[TSA_383]

masster blaster wrote...

So do you think Gamble and Chris got my pm about more speculations for IT because Idid pm them Tuseday about we are low on speculations, so hope this it it.

¬_¬
Please don't start provoking bioware employees.

TheConstantOne wrote...
1) The soldiers that are fighting the husks.  This point has been mentioned quite a few times.  In Destroy, they continue fighting until the bitter end whereas in Control and Synthesis, the husks are winning out.  This could be an illustration of Shepard's mental state versus Reaper power.  In Control and Synthesis, Shepard doesn't believe he is destroying the Reapers and so if the soldiers are indicative of his willpower, they will not fare well against Reapers.

2) The Normandy memorial wall scene.  When Shepard believes openly accepts his death at the hands of the Reapers, his name is placed on the wall.  In Destroy, the companion not only doesn't place the plaque on the wall but some of them seem to be smirking.  How would the companion be so sure of Shepard's survival as to not place his name on the wall AND smile?  This can be readily explained if they represent part of Shepard's consciousness: at this point of the vid Shepard realizes that he has succeeded and that he is still alive.  This explanation also reconciles very well with Shepard waking up right after the memorial scene

This is how I reasoned both of these as well, and personally it seems like a fantastic clue 

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Okay, bit of a nostalgia trip, but this guy going on about a 'fan-made theory', reminds me...

When I finished the game, I discussed the ending with my (literalist) friend. (At that time I hadn't heard about IT, nor did I know what a 'literalist' was). He immediately started about IT (I had to ask him what the abbreviation stood for), then threw in my face that it was all just a fan-made theory that I was buying into. 

Note, I had literally finished the game like two hours before that conversation, and had no idea what he was talking about. 

All I know is that I very much felt like the catalyst was trying to trick me into picking something other than destroy. At the time I played it, I couldn't really put the finger on it, but I felt very distrustful, and I thought it was crazy that the game was giving me the options to do what Saren and TIM respectively wanted (synthesis and control). I was mostly just confused by the implications of that. I was like "But what was the point of the games then? That I was wrong all along?" 

I was also very confused by 'control' being the blue option, as if that was somehow paragon. Because saving the Collector Base (and thus the Human Reaper) was the renegade dialogue option, whereas destroy was the paragon dialogue option). So I was talking to him about how I felt the colours were reversed for some odd reason.

So I looked up the breath scene on YouTube (because I had borrowed my friend's game and thus hadn't been able to play multiplayer, so my EMS was not high enough), and when watching it a second time, it suddenly occurred to me that I was looking at stone rubble. And then it clicked. So I asked him, what if it was an indoctrination attempt? And that's when he more or less went ape**** and started about buying into a fan-made theory.

People keep bringing this up, but no matter what you tell them, they can't believe that this was your own interpretation and you didn't hear it on the internet first. So eventually, I (naturally) found this place, only to learn about all the 'circumstantial' evidence. But for me, the whole idea of indoctrination was purely born from my interpretation of the story.

What REALLY blew my mind though, was when I replayed the beginning of the game and saw the scene with the kid holding the miniature spaceship. That's what absolutely convinced me of Bioware's intention. That whole scene was suddenly rich with new meaning and was just screaming 'Things are not what they seem when this kid is around'. Mind blown, seriously.

That just closed the deal to me. It's all the proof I'll ever need. I guess all those years trying to figure out Lynch and Kubrick and what not finally paid off.

I was exactly the same - minus the chats with someone who derides a story as not making sense one minute and then has a hissy fit when someone finds a way to make sense of it  I've never understood that - I'm fairly sure at some point in the DLC cycle there will be a point where it becomes obvious that we're right, and my god do I look forward to being on these forums then