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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#19976
SubAstris

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demersel wrote...

1 - you want to build the crucible. (which you have no idea what it is)
2 - you are told that in order to complete the crucible you need to something called the "Catalyst" - (which you have no idea whhat it is.)
2.5 - you go to find leviathan and he tells you about how leviathans created an A.I. and the A.I. created reapers and killed leviathhnas. And we know that leviathan was not trithfull with you. (i.e. he lies)
3 - you are told by Vendetta (who we know to be far from trustworthy, and who spent considerable amount of time in the hands of the Illusive Man) - that the catalyst is the citadel. at the same time you get the news that reapers has just taken it 9somehow) and moved the citadel to earth (somehow).
4 - you gether all your fleets and the crucible and go to earth. Once you get there you are told that the reapers are doing something big in london, and it might be connected to the arrival of the citadel (might)
5 - in a dream-like sequence of weird events you somehow get to some strange chamber where you see a transperent white kid from your dreams. He tells you that he is the catalyst. You ask him whethere he is an A.I. - he says as mach as you are an animal. (which is a sarcastic equvalent of NO) - and we know that is not entirely truthfull. - so he lies.

These are all literal.

Where in this chain of events does it says that the catalyst (the part that is needed to complete the crucible) - is an A.I.?
And where does it stated that the thing you meet at the end , that claims to be the catalyst, and that is known to lie, is the very same A.I. that leviathan told you about?

So no leviathan does not mean the Catalyst exists. )))))


Just because TIM had Vendetta doesn't necessarily mean he corrupted it and made it say things it didn't intend.

I guess 5 is your interpretation. It never said it wasn't an AI

#19977
demersel

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paxxton wrote...

demersel wrote...

Crucible might be a device with a perpuse to bring about Omega point.

Organics creating synthetics - is part of this process.

Leviathans creating reapers - to try to stop Omega point from happening. (not directly - they can have no concept of omega point, since they are already pinnacle of life, so they view synthetics just as a denger to thheir organic tools)


A kind of convergence to stop one type of life achieving transcendence?


precisely

#19978
SubAstris

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I wonder if SubAstris even read my reply.


I did, I just have nothing more to say so didn't. Problem?

#19979
GethPrimeMKII

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Have you considered that details regarding the AI would be information the reapers would definitely work with to craft a more convincing hallucination for Shepard? That makes sense considering everything in the hallucination has been proven to be drawn from Shepard's past memories and knowledge.

#19980
DoomsdayDevice

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No no, just curious.

It just happens a lot that people ask a simple question, and I give a very lengthy reply, and most of the time I don't get a reply, so I don't even know if anybody read what I posted.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 07 septembre 2012 - 09:41 .


#19981
paxxton

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@SubAstris: This might answer all your questions.

Modifié par paxxton, 07 septembre 2012 - 09:42 .


#19982
demersel

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GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Have you considered that details regarding the AI would be information the reapers would definitely work with to craft a more convincing hallucination for Shepard? That makes sense considering everything in the hallucination has been proven to be drawn from Shepard's past memories and knowledge.


He has and dissmised that possibility as bull**** :whistle:

#19983
paxxton

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demersel wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Have you considered that details regarding the AI would be information the reapers would definitely work with to craft a more convincing hallucination for Shepard? That makes sense considering everything in the hallucination has been proven to be drawn from Shepard's past memories and knowledge.


He has and dissmised that possibility as bull**** :whistle:

Demersel, you're joking? That's exactly what happens on the Citadel!

#19984
spotlessvoid

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Alright, back to being mad about Bioware PR. See ya later

#19985
SubAstris

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paxxton wrote...

@SubAstris: This might answer all your questions.


The whole of IT v non-IT debate wrapped up in one video :D

#19986
paxxton

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SubAstris wrote...

paxxton wrote...

@SubAstris: This might answer all your questions.


The whole of IT v non-IT debate wrapped up in one video :D

Yup. Great for use as ammo by both sides. Posted Image

Modifié par paxxton, 07 septembre 2012 - 09:49 .


#19987
demersel

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paxxton wrote...

Yup. Great for use as ammo by both sides. Posted Image


Ok, now , i just have to know.,.. was it a fake? 

#19988
paxxton

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demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Yup. Great for use as ammo by both sides. Posted Image


Ok, now , i just have to know.,.. was it a fake? 

I have no idea. Posted Image

EDIT: From what Cisco Sisko says, it is.

Modifié par paxxton, 07 septembre 2012 - 10:05 .


#19989
Dwailing

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paxxton wrote...

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Yup. Great for use as ammo by both sides. Posted Image


Ok, now , i just have to know.,.. was it a fake? 

I have no idea. Posted Image


Well, given Sisko's narration at the beginning, I think the data core was a fake, but I'm pretty sure that IT is real, and the ending's a fake.  But I honestly don't know for sure at this point.  My support for IT anymore comes almost as much from me WANTING it to be true as well as thinking it IS true.  Although it should me pointed out that I'm still pretty certain that it IS true, especially since Gamble only denied that there will be future games with Shepard, not that we wouldn't see post ending DLC.

#19990
GethPrimeMKII

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Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Yup. Great for use as ammo by both sides. Posted Image


Ok, now , i just have to know.,.. was it a fake? 

I have no idea. Posted Image


Well, given Sisko's narration at the beginning, I think the data core was a fake, but I'm pretty sure that IT is real, and the ending's a fake.  But I honestly don't know for sure at this point.  My support for IT anymore comes almost as much from me WANTING it to be true as well as thinking it IS true.  Although it should me pointed out that I'm still pretty certain that it IS true, especially since Gamble only denied that there will be future games with Shepard, not that we wouldn't see post ending DLC.


The theory doesn't need extra DLC to hold water. But all this secrecy and amiguity will inevitebly lead to something big else there's no point to it all.

#19991
GethPrimeMKII

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double post.

Modifié par GethPrimeMKII, 07 septembre 2012 - 10:07 .


#19992
paxxton

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Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Yup. Great for use as ammo by both sides. Posted Image


Ok, now , i just have to know.,.. was it a fake? 

I have no idea. Posted Image


Well, given Sisko's narration at the beginning, I think the data core was a fake, but I'm pretty sure that IT is real, and the ending's a fake.  But I honestly don't know for sure at this point.  My support for IT anymore comes almost as much from me WANTING it to be true as well as thinking it IS true.  Although it should me pointed out that I'm still pretty certain that it IS true, especially since Gamble only denied that there will be future games with Shepard, not that we wouldn't see post ending DLC.

He denied Shepard being in the rank of Commander in ME4. Posted Image

#19993
gunslinger_ruiz

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In war, Victory.
In peace, Vigilance.
In death, Sacrifice.

But enough Dragon Age quotes. Operation: Vigilance is in effect, lets kick it and be back in time for speculations.
/salute.

#19994
spotlessvoid

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GethPrimeMKII wrote....
The theory doesn't need extra DLC to hold water. But all this secrecy and ambiguity will inevitably lead to something big else there's no point to it all.

Gotta disagree....

So, what sort of indoctrination doesn't require DLC?
1.
Endings completely literal: Indoctrination does not have any tangible effect on Shepard, doesn't manifest on screen, EC slides show all choices as victory. No Indoctrination Occurs.
2.
Endings are literal, control/synthesis are traps: EC slides show all choices as victory. Where's the trap? Where's the indoctrination? No Indoctrination Occurs. DLC Required to Explain.
3.
ITCon: EC slide shows all choices as victory. Where's the trap? Only possible if EC slide show is Reaper caused hallucination, which makes no sense. DLC Required to Explain.
4.
ITDream: What happens after making your decision? DLC Required to Explain.

Only 100% literal ending does not require DLC. There are no other possible interpretations without DLC. Bioware's community managers are contradicting themselves. IT is valid and no IT DLC cannot be simultaneously true.

#19995
demersel

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paxxton wrote...

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Yup. Great for use as ammo by both sides. Posted Image


Ok, now , i just have to know.,.. was it a fake? 

I have no idea. Posted Image

EDIT: From what Cisco Sisko says, it is.


I mean how it turned out in Deep Space Nine? Surely this plot twist was resolved one way or another at some point... 

#19996
Norlond

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Want some quotes?

"The goal was to tell a more personal story about Shepard and how the war has taken a toll on his psyche"

Including: Reaper exposure

"[...] resolution to the philosophical battle between TIM [...] and Shepard, who wants [the Reapers] outright destroyed"

Ending: Random change of mind!

"And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movements and fall under full Reaper control (This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices)"

Indoctrination was intended, it was just not implemented because of gameplay problems (like salarian husks), doesn't mean they implemented with IT

I'm sure these quotes were already discussed but I thought I could bring them up again nonetheless :whistle: ^_^

*edit* and a quote from Shep during the conversation with James about N7: "The right choice is not always the easy one"

Modifié par Norlond, 07 septembre 2012 - 10:15 .


#19997
Dwailing

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spotlessvoid wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote....
The theory doesn't need extra DLC to hold water. But all this secrecy and ambiguity will inevitably lead to something big else there's no point to it all.

Gotta disagree....

So, what sort of indoctrination doesn't require DLC?
1.
Endings completely literal: Indoctrination does not have any tangible effect on Shepard, doesn't manifest on screen, EC slides show all choices as victory. No Indoctrination Occurs.
2.
Endings are literal, control/synthesis are traps: EC slides show all choices as victory. Where's the trap? Where's the indoctrination? No Indoctrination Occurs. DLC Required to Explain.
3.
ITCon: EC slide shows all choices as victory. Where's the trap? Only possible if EC slide show is Reaper caused hallucination, which makes no sense. DLC Required to Explain.
4.
ITDream: What happens after making your decision? DLC Required to Explain.

Only 100% literal ending does not require DLC. There are no other possible interpretations without DLC. Bioware's community managers are contradicting themselves. IT is valid and no IT DLC cannot be simultaneously true.


Actually, technically speaking, IT can be true without requiring DLC to show us that it's true.  If BioWare decided to tell us that IT is true without releasing DLC or addressing it in future games, it would be true, but we would not have any closure.  We would be in basically the same place we're in right now, except our speculation would turn to what happened next rather than whether it happened period.

#19998
paxxton

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demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Yup. Great for use as ammo by both sides. Posted Image


Ok, now , i just have to know.,.. was it a fake? 

I have no idea. Posted Image

EDIT: From what Cisco Sisko says, it is.


I mean how it turned out in Deep Space Nine? Surely this plot twist was resolved one way or another at some point... 

I'm not sure but afaik Romulans joined up with the Dominion. But I don't know.

I should really pick up the whole series. For me the best Star Trek was TNG. Then Deep Space Nine.

Modifié par paxxton, 07 septembre 2012 - 10:18 .


#19999
GethPrimeMKII

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@spotlessvoid: You're confusing closure with evidence.

#20000
demersel

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ME4 or whatever the next game in the universe will be, may not feature Shepard as main character. (it may not feature him at all). But if there are reapers there - bam! IT is proven 100%