80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

RavenEyry wrote...

I didn't see anyone trolling iconoclaste? Did anyone else?

Haters gonna hate, I guess?

[estebanus]

Rifneno wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

I didn't see anyone trolling iconoclaste? Did anyone else?

Haters gonna hate, I guess?

Like this?

[spotlessvoid]

RavenEyry wrote...

I didn't see anyone trolling iconoclaste? Did anyone else?

I don't think that's what he meant

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Home run MF wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

IT also suggests Harbinger may want Shepards mind for the new reaper.

Also, I'm having trouble understanding exactly what you mean regarding Leviathan-Harbinger thing, iconoclaste

About the first line  I wanna point out this lines from Leviathan:
"As the intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution."
"Unknown. Until the Intelligence finds what it is looking for, the harvest will continue."

They seem to sugest the intelligence seems to have found a solution but needs something it hasn't found yet. I wonder what it is?

If it was created to preserve life then logically what it is searching for is a way to preserve all life. Reapers are a solution, but everytime a Reaper is destroyed some of the life it is supposed to preserve dies...and even beyond that even more life continues to evolve and show up. It is a neverending cycle for the AI...but it cant just destroy all life because that is against its basic programming.

Basicly I think the AI (not saying it is the Catalyst btw) is stuck in a kind of logic loop. It has been given an impossible task, but is forced to try and complete it, hence the cycle...still degrading to the entire "each a nation, independent, free of all weakness" part of the Reapers, but better tahn what we got.

Synthesis if taking litterally would solve its problems since no new life would evolve...but are we seriusly gonna beleive that Synthesis is possible in the way presented...even putting aside the ludicruos scenario that it is Shepard they needed all along to make it happen?

Sigh...

Anyway quick quick off topic, have you guys ever had you doctor tell you to put on a few pounds?

[lex0r11]

estebanus wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

[...]

What server are you on?

Elona Reach.

Riverside. Damn. It would've been awesome if we'd have been able to play together!

I used Riverside in the beta. *_*

[D.Sharrah]

@Arian: You sir, are awesome. A truly inspirational gift to this thread/community. Your posts always inspire me to stretch my imagaintion beyond what I had set as limitations. Keep on keeping on.

[estebanus]

lex0r11 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

[...]

What server are you on?

Elona Reach.

Riverside. Damn. It would've been awesome if we'd have been able to play together!

I used Riverside in the beta. *_*

oh wow. That's weird.

[RavenEyry]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Anyway quick quick off topic, have you guys ever had you doctor tell you to put on a few pounds?

My parents do.

And if 'someone like Shepard' is what the AI is looking for I'll cry. It somehow makes even less sense than everything else about the catalyst and crucible.

[estebanus]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Anyway quick quick off topic, have you guys ever had you doctor tell you to put on a few pounds?

Yeah, once. It was when I decided to join the military as an officer. In order to begin basic training, I had to gain a little weight. The person in charge told me "Erika, jeg har et par kupons til McDonalds. Tag dem og kom tilbage efter at du har opbrugt alle." (Translated: Erika, I've got a few coupons for McDonalds for you. Take them and come back after you've used them all.")
Most. Awesome. Guy. Ever.

Modifié par estebanus, 10 septembre 2012 - 07:41 .

[spotlessvoid]

The human brain is not one indistinguishable organ, it is a complex system comprised of vastly differing components. They are generally classified into three sections, commonly referred to as the R Complex, the Mammalian Brain, and the cortex. The survival mechanism you refer to originates in the R Complex and is further amplified by the chemical processes produced by the Mammalian center, known as emotions.
What makes the cortex so different is that it has no such mechanism. It's function is strictly cognitive, and though it operates in conjunction with the survival instincts of our lower brain, it is not it's source.
As I'm sure you well understand evolutionary theory, it will suffice to say that the natural evolutionary process favors survival, as such a naturally occurring organic brain cannot come into existence without first developing all the requisite non cognitive functions required to keep the biological organism alive. Nevertheless, the cortex shows that organic brain function need not be defined as survival oriented or inherently irrational. In fact, the cortex operates in a manner much more similar to a desktop computer than say the limbic system.

It is erroneous to assign chemical processes developed out of evolutionary necessity as intrinsically organic and although these attributes cannot be ignored when comparing a human brain to an artificial one, they are not prerequisites when discussing the technical advantages of organic vs synthetic
For example, if one were to replace all but the gray matter with synthetic systems, such a system would be free of any involuntary neural activity negatively impacting accuracy in favor of efficacy. Yet the cognitive organ would remain wholly organic. Conversely, a synthetic cognitive system added on to an organic human lower brain would remain cognitively synthetic but would be susceptible to all the problems presented by the biological instinct for survival. It is the involuntary nature of these instincts that creates such a conflicting, tumultuous mental life for we humans.

Yet, there is an entire doctrine who's primary function is the emancipation of the cognitive brain from the instinctive brain. Doubt it's effectiveness at controlling so called involuntary functions? Google
Thich Quang Duc
The entirety of buddhism can be summed up in two parts: the philosophical concepts of impermanence and interdependent origination, and the behavioral practice of quieting the control the lower brain has on cognitive function. They actively seek out relative truth over survivalist instinct.

In summary, self control over irrational "human" behavior is demonstrable.


Addendum 1:
So how does this relate to mass effect? Well, the impact synthesis has on the races of the galaxy, and the morality of such a decision, cannot be properly debated without knowing significantly more details on how the transformative process potentially alters mental function.
Addendum 2:
It seems that emotional response is what is typically associated with an organic mind, while synthetic minds are imagined as devoid of such processes. The implications this has on the fundamentally human trait of empathy is, in my opinion, at the source of the fear many have of artificial intelligence, however that is a complex topic best left for another post.
Addendum 3:
I think that sentient beings are able to quiet their instincts and understand causality. This means that strategy can be guided by abstraction instead of primal instinct. Harbinger isn't necessarily going to think like the Leviathan just because he was created from them

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 10 septembre 2012 - 07:41 .

[Eryri]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

If it was created to preserve life then logically what it is searching for is a way to preserve all life. Reapers are a solution, but everytime a Reaper is destroyed some of the life it is supposed to preserve dies...and even beyond that even more life continues to evolve and show up. It is a neverending cycle for the AI...but it cant just destroy all life because that is against its basic programming.

Basicly I think the AI (not saying it is the Catalyst btw) is stuck in a kind of logic loop. It has been given an impossible task, but is forced to try and complete it, hence the cycle...still degrading to the entire "each a nation, independent, free of all weakness" part of the Reapers, but better tahn what we got.

Synthesis if taking litterally would solve its problems since no new life would evolve...but are we seriusly gonna beleive that Synthesis is possible in the way presented...even putting aside the ludicruos scenario that it is Shepard they needed all along to make it happen?

I'm hoping that we will discover that the Reapers have in fact rebelled against the "Intelligence" that created them in their turn, and walled it up in Omega or somewhere to go senile.

Meanwhile they decided to harvest races simply to build up their empire for their own selfish reasons, rather than this wishy washy "preserving life by pureeing it" nonsense. The starbrat would just be Harbinger playing dress-up as his old boss to mess with Shepard's head.

Basically I just want the reapers to be satisfyingly evil b'stards again which I can enjoy blowing up, rather than the poor misguided, mis-programmed puppets that they became at the end of ME3

Modifié par Eryri, 10 septembre 2012 - 07:51 .

[Humakt83]

Hrothdane wrote...
I think it was Mordin) said that humans are an anomaly in that you CAN'T make general assumptions about their values and personalities like you can with all other species in the galaxy.

Leviathans do not seem to be impressed by humans at all. Shepard is the one that they refer to as an anomaly.

"Your own species could be destroyed with a single thought. But you are different." 

I do not trust them, like I do not trust Catalyst or Reapers, but Shepard does indeed have little choice on the matter.

[Rifneno]

Eryri wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

If it was created to preserve life then logically what it is searching for is a way to preserve all life. Reapers are a solution, but everytime a Reaper is destroyed some of the life it is supposed to preserve dies...and even beyond that even more life continues to evolve and show up. It is a neverending cycle for the AI...but it cant just destroy all life because that is against its basic programming.

Basicly I think the AI (not saying it is the Catalyst btw) is stuck in a kind of logic loop. It has been given an impossible task, but is forced to try and complete it, hence the cycle...still degrading to the entire "each a nation, independent, free of all weakness" part of the Reapers, but better tahn what we got.

Synthesis if taking litterally would solve its problems since no new life would evolve...but are we seriusly gonna beleive that Synthesis is possible in the way presented...even putting aside the ludicruos scenario that it is Shepard they needed all along to make it happen?

I'm hoping that we will discover that the Reapers have in fact rebelled against the "Intelligence" that created them in their turn, and walled it up in Omega or somewhere to go senile.

Meanwhile they decided to harvest races simply to build up their empire for their own selfish reasons, rather than this wishy washy "preserving life by pureeing it" nonsense. The starbrat would just be Harbinger playing dress-up as his old boss to mess with Shepard's head.

Basically I just want the reapers to be satisfyingly evil b'stards again which I can enjoy blowing up, rather than the poor misguided, mis-programmed puppets that they became at the end of ME3

Me too.  I remember someone posting an idea a while back where if/when post-breath scene content is added, Shepard can ask Starbrat why the Reapers haven't rebelled against it.  Then Starbrat makes an evil grin and says in Harbinger's voice, "We already have, Shepard."  That would be simply awesome.

[spotlessvoid]

Ravenyry wrote...
And if 'someone like Shepard' is what the AI is looking for I'll cry. It somehow makes even less sense than everything else about the catalyst and crucible.

Trillions of lives through countless cycles, and all they needed was Shep. Right

[Eryri]

Rifneno wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Basically I just want the reapers to be satisfyingly evil b'stards again which I can enjoy blowing up, rather than the poor misguided, mis-programmed puppets that they became at the end of ME3

Me too.  I remember someone posting an idea a while back where if/when post-breath scene content is added, Shepard can ask Starbrat why the Reapers haven't rebelled against it.  Then Starbrat makes an evil grin and says in Harbinger's voice, "We already have, Shepard."  That would be simply awesome.

 Agreed. That would be great.

[demersel]

Control and Synthethis imply shepard is special in some way or another. (The catalyst does so)
Refuse imply Shepard is special and it is done by shepard himself.
Destroy does not require Shepard being special. Anyone can shoot that tube.

[lex0r11]

estebanus wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Anyway quick quick off topic, have you guys ever had you doctor tell you to put on a few pounds?

Yeah, once. It was when I decided to join the military as an officer. In order to begin basic training, I had to gain a little weight. The person in charge told me "Erika, jeg har et par kupons til McDonalds. Tag dem og kom tilbage efter at du har opbrugt alle." (Translated: Erika, I've got a few coupons for McDonalds for you. Take them and come back after you've used them all.")
Most. Awesome. Guy. Ever.

Ah, I remember estebanus talking about having family in the military. Now I know everything I need to know about you, I like you already. The more military in here the better.

Oh. You will be called a spy or a witch hunter periodically by random people.

Modifié par lex0r11, 10 septembre 2012 - 07:59 .

[estebanus]

lex0r11 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Anyway quick quick off topic, have you guys ever had you doctor tell you to put on a few pounds?

Yeah, once. It was when I decided to join the military as an officer. In order to begin basic training, I had to gain a little weight. The person in charge told me "Erika, jeg har et par kupons til McDonalds. Tag dem og kom tilbage efter at du har opbrugt alle." (Translated: Erika, I've got a few coupons for McDonalds for you. Take them and come back after you've used them all.")
Most. Awesome. Guy. Ever.

Ah, I remember estebanus talking about having family in the military. Now I know everything I need to know about you, I like you already. The more military in here the better.

Oh. You will be called a spy or a witch hunter periodically.

You a soldier, too? If so, I like you, too! In which army do you serve?

Wait, why will I be called a spy or witch hunter?

[Rifneno]

estebanus wrote...

Wait, why will I be called a spy or witch hunter?

*glare*  That sounds like a spy question to me...

[estebanus]

Rifneno wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Wait, why will I be called a spy or witch hunter?

*glare*  That sounds like a spy question to me...

*Tries to avoid the penetrating gaze of honeybadger*

I... I don't know what you're talking about.

[Eryri]

demersel wrote...

Control and Synthethis imply shepard is special in some way or another. (The catalyst does so)
Refuse imply Shepard is special and it is done by shepard himself.
Destroy does not require Shepard being special. Anyone can shoot that tube.

True. Control and Synthesis are acts of hubris and vanity imho. Shepard believing that he and he alone can be the one capable of controlling the uncontrollable or bringing about the Brave New World of synthesis.

In destroy however he's obeying his orders like a proper soldier. Despite the probable loss of his own life, and with the express permission of the other parties likely to lose theirs; EDI and the Geth, who would both prefer death to being re-written by the reapers.

Not sure about refuse though - as to be honest it's  probably exactly what I would do in that situation. I'd feel unable to betray EDI and so end up dooming everybody by dithering. Probably just as well that I have a nice safe office job in real life.

Modifié par Eryri, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:11 .

[lex0r11]

estebanus wrote...

[...]

You a soldier, too? If so, I like you, too! In which army do you serve?

Wait, why will I be called a spy or witch hunter?

Oh well. They never told me. I was also supposedly on a secret mission in London with military grade hardware to uncover its importance. Me being there to visit the Olympics was just a cover.

I'm an officer in the U.S. Army. But right now I'm mostly a student.

And If forgot something about the GW2 server thing. My people are still talking about server change because of reasons I don't understand. Maybe I will get them to go back to our beta home.;D

Modifié par lex0r11, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:19 .

[Iconoclaste]

spotlessvoid wrote...

( ... )
Addendum 1 ( ok with that )
Addendum 2 ( ok with that also )
Addendum 3:
I think that sentient beings are able to quiet their instincts and understand causality. This means that strategy can be guided by abstraction instead of primal instinct. Harbinger isn't necessarily going to think like the Leviathan just because he was created from them

Not "necessarily", but possibly. If all Reapers were to think and act "identically", then there would be no distinction between them, and no need to put any emphasis on Harbinger's actions more than on any other random Reaper. Plus, that wouldn't make them all "Unique, each a nation, independant", like Sovereign said.

But this is war, and survival of each Reaper is on the line, as much as all other species. Do you think that could be sufficient to draw the Reaper's actions and thoughts towards self-preservation a bit more than what you describe in the rest of your post, which relates more to behavior and thought in a "normal" context?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:14 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

estebanus wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Anyway quick quick off topic, have you guys ever had you doctor tell you to put on a few pounds?

Yeah, once. It was when I decided to join the military as an officer. In order to begin basic training, I had to gain a little weight. The person in charge told me "Erika, jeg har et par kupons til McDonalds. Tag dem og kom tilbage efter at du har opbrugt alle." (Translated: Erika, I've got a few coupons for McDonalds for you. Take them and come back after you've used them all.")
Most. Awesome. Guy. Ever.

Hehe, Danish, ingen grund til at oversætte for mig (no need to translate for me)

Anyway my reason is that I am undergoing a surgery and afterwards ill be forced to subsist on liquid food for a month so I need a few pounds to drop in order to not get heavily underweight.

Anyway back on topic, a thing to notice regards my past post (and which has probably been said before) is that Leviathan from what i recall never says the AI they created is controlling the Reapers, only that it created them. For all we know the "Each a nation, Independent, free of all weakness" can still be very, very true.

Oh how I would actually love to see us shut down the AI somehow thinking it will end the Reapers only to have a holo of Harbinger appear similar to Arrival. "You continue to impress us Shepard, but in the end it is futile. You only shut down our creator...not us...and the cycle goes on!"

[estebanus]

EDIT: never mind

Modifié par estebanus, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:19 .