80611 réponses à ce sujet

[lex0r11]

estebanus wrote...

EDIT: never mind

Maybe I should stop talking or get back to topic. lulz.

[estebanus]

lex0r11 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

[...]

You a soldier, too? If so, I like you, too! In which army do you serve?

Wait, why will I be called a spy or witch hunter?

Oh well. They never told me. I was also supposedly on a secret mission in London with military grade hardware to uncover its importance. Me being there to visit the Olympics was just a cover.

I'm an officer in the U.S. Army. But right now I'm mostly a student.

And If forgot something about the GW2 server thing. My people are still talking about server change because of reasons I don't understand. Maybe I will get them to go back to our beta home.;D

U.S. Army, eh? I've got a cousin in USAF.

Anyway, that would be really cool if you'd manage to get back on Riverside. We could play together then

Modifié par estebanus, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:23 .

[estebanus]

lex0r11 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

EDIT: never mind

Maybe I should stop talking or get back to topic. lulz.

Nah, it was because I read your post before you edited it, that's why.

[Restrider]

Iconoclaste wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

( ... )
Addendum 1 ( ok with that )
Addendum 2 ( ok with that also )
Addendum 3:
I think that sentient beings are able to quiet their instincts and understand causality. This means that strategy can be guided by abstraction instead of primal instinct. Harbinger isn't necessarily going to think like the Leviathan just because he was created from them

Not "necessarily", but possibly. If all Reapers were to think and act "identically", then there would be no distinction between them, and no need to put any emphasis on Harbinger's actions more than on any other random Reaper. Plus, that wouldn't make them all "Unique, each a nation, independant", like Sovereign said.

But this is war, and survival of each Reaper is on the line, as much as all other species. Do you think that could be sufficient to draw the Reaper's actions and thoughts towards self-preservation a bit more than what you describe in the rest of your post, which relates more to behavior and thought in a "normal" context?

How I understood the whole intention of THE AI in creating the reapers was to preserve life. So I somehow imagine the AI being some kind of gardener, who harvests the matured organics, mashes them and preserves them in form of marmalade. The marmalade contains the "spirit" of each harvested race. Thus every reaper is different and "each a nation" as Sovereign says in ME1.
If you wait too long with the harvest, the organics would eventually be consumed by the technology they develop (e.g. synthetics). Actually it is much like gardening. You harvest and preserve it in a new form. After that, new species can grow to be harvested and preserved later on. And I always thought the reapers should be beyond any kind of morale. Is the gardaner an atrocious monster, when he harvests his strawberries and mashes them to marmalade?
And furthermore, Harbinger clearly shows some unique traits ("ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" anyone?). I never saw any other reaper being able to do that.

[spotlessvoid]

Yeah, I think you make a great point that Reapers are influenced by their origin race, just saying that they aren't necessarily bound by these influences

[lex0r11]

estebanus wrote...

[...]

U.S. Army, eh? I've got a cousin in USAF.

Anyway, that would be really cool if you'd manage to get back on Riverside. We could play together then

Air Force, huh? My uncle was a zoomie.

I think bynes dad is also a zoomie. I mean nothing by it, I just like the word.

[spotlessvoid]

Restrider:
Strawberry's are not sentient life forms.

[byne]

lex0r11 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

[...]

U.S. Army, eh? I've got a cousin in USAF.

Anyway, that would be really cool if you'd manage to get back on Riverside. We could play together then

Air Force, huh? My uncle was a zoomie.

I think bynes dad is also a zoomie. I mean nothing by it, I just like the word.

Tis true, my dad is a Colonel in the Air Force

Also: I read zoomie as zombie at first and was thoroughly confused.

Modifié par byne, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:32 .

[Restrider]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Restrider:
Strawberry's are not sentient life forms.

I'm not saying that I support the reaper's intentions. But I always thought that organics are to reapers what strawberries are to humans. And you cannot just apply our morale on something that advanced. The reapers are not malovelent and sadistic because they are evil as a human could be. They simply are... superior.
Again, I am not saying that this means organics should surrender, all I am saying is they simply are transmoral creatures.

[estebanus]

byne wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

[...]

U.S. Army, eh? I've got a cousin in USAF.

Anyway, that would be really cool if you'd manage to get back on Riverside. We could play together then

Air Force, huh? My uncle was a zoomie.

I think bynes dad is also a zoomie. I mean nothing by it, I just like the word.

Tis true, my dad is a Colonel in the Air Force

Also: I read zoomie as zombie at first and was thoroughly confused.

Colonel? Not bad. My dad was a major in the army when he quit.

[spotlessvoid]

Restrider wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Restrider:
Strawberry's are not sentient life forms.

I'm not saying that I support the reaper's intentions. But I always thought that organics are to reapers what strawberries are to humans. And you cannot just apply our morale on something that advanced. The reapers are not malovelent and sadistic because they are evil as a human could be. They simply are... superior.
Again, I am not saying that this means organics should surrender, all I am
saying is they simply are transmoral creatures.

The metaphor is fundamentally flawed. Self determination is the inherent right of all sentient life. Self awareness is self awareness. Fruit doesn't think and feel. We are closer to Reapers than we are to fruit. It's as bad a metaphor as starchild's fire isn't evil crap. Fire can't choose noti to burn!

If anything, it's Man vs Ape. Or even more accurrate, Modern Man vs Neanderthal

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:43 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Restrider wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Restrider:
Strawberry's are not sentient life forms.

I'm not saying that I support the reaper's intentions. But I always thought that organics are to reapers what strawberries are to humans. And you cannot just apply our morale on something that advanced. The reapers are not malovelent and sadistic because they are evil as a human could be. They simply are... superior.
Again, I am not saying that this means organics should surrender, all I am saying is they simply are transmoral creatures.

"Dont underestimate us! We dont care about the harvest or ascension or synthesis whatevers, we dont give a damn about that! Force your way down a path you choose to take and do it all yourself, that is the way this cycle rules!" - Shepard

Oh god I could (modified) quote Gurren Lagann all day in regards to fighting the Reapers. Seriusly so many of the things Simon say to the main villian fit the battle against the Reapers so well, especially in regards to their motivations.

Oh hell, here is another one.

"The tommorow we are trying to grab for ourselves, is not the tommorow that you set out for us! It is tommorow we choose for yourselves, a tommorow we choose out of all the infinte possibilities! Well fight our way through, well keep fighting and protect the galaxy! Well stop this cycle of yours too!" - Shepard

"You cant possibly accomplish all that!" - Harbinger

"Just watch us!" - Shepard

"Such arrogance from a lowly species which will be harvested by us! We will make you regret your insolence!" - Harbinger.

[Restrider]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Restrider wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Restrider:
Strawberry's are not sentient life forms.

I'm not saying that I support the reaper's intentions. But I always thought that organics are to reapers what strawberries are to humans. And you cannot just apply our morale on something that advanced. The reapers are not malovelent and sadistic because they are evil as a human could be. They simply are... superior.
Again, I am not saying that this means organics should surrender, all I am
saying is they simply are transmoral creatures.

The metaphor is fundamentally flawed. Self determination is the inherent right of all sentient life. Self awareness is self awareness. Fruit doesn't think and feel. We are closer to Reapers than we are to fruit. It's as bad a metaphor as starchild's fire isn't evil crap. Fire can't choose noti to burn!

If anything, it's Man vs Ape. Or even more accurrate, Modern Man vs Neanderthal

I think I should specify more, to avoid to sound like a moron.
Again, that is not my philosphy, but the reaper's. Thus the metaphor is fundamentally flawed to organics, but it fits perfectly to the reapers. They don't give a damn about self determination for organics. They don't believe that organics are mature enough to determine their fate on their own, thus they need to be guided/preserved.
This may sound totally perverted to you, but you could also compare it to children and adults. Children are self aware, but they are not allowed to dermine their fate entirely until they reach adulthood. Reapers do not consider organics to be advanced enough to earn the right of self determination. If organics were advanced enough -applying reaper's logic- they would all volunteer to become part of the glorious reaper community (this is stronlgy connected to Synthesis).
Furthermore: 
- reaper tech lets galactic civilization grow in a specific order (e.g. relay network)
- reapers wait long enough, until the galactic races reach a certain state of development (e.g. being mature)
- reapers harvest "mature" races and preserve them in a persistent form (e.g. marmalade)
- reapers leave the "premature" races alone, so they can develop further
If you take this into consideration, reapers appear to be galactic farmers. The only difference between crops/strawberries and organics is the fact that organics are self aware, but this does not bother the reapers.

Modifié par Restrider, 10 septembre 2012 - 09:06 .

[spotlessvoid]

Ah ok. Then I love that starchild lets a strawberry decide the fate of the garden.

Following that metaphor, farmers don't grow strawberrys out of benevolence. They grow them because they serve a purpose. What other purpose do organics serve to Reapers than to create more Reapers? The means becomes the end it seems

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 10 septembre 2012 - 09:19 .

[Home run MF]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

IT also suggests Harbinger may want Shepards mind for the new reaper.

Also, I'm having trouble understanding exactly what you mean regarding Leviathan-Harbinger thing, iconoclaste

About the first line  I wanna point out this lines from Leviathan:
"As the intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution."
"Unknown. Until the Intelligence finds what it is looking for, the harvest will continue."

They seem to sugest the intelligence seems to have found a solution but needs something it hasn't found yet. I wonder what it is?

If it was created to preserve life then logically what it is searching for is a way to preserve all life. Reapers are a solution, but everytime a Reaper is destroyed some of the life it is supposed to preserve dies...and even beyond that even more life continues to evolve and show up. It is a neverending cycle for the AI...but it cant just destroy all life because that is against its basic programming.

Basicly I think the AI (not saying it is the Catalyst btw) is stuck in a kind of logic loop. It has been given an impossible task, but is forced to try and complete it, hence the cycle...still degrading to the entire "each a nation, independent, free of all weakness" part of the Reapers, but better tahn what we got.

Synthesis if taking litterally would solve its problems since no new life would evolve...but are we seriusly gonna beleive that Synthesis is possible in the way presented...even putting aside the ludicruos scenario that it is Shepard they needed all along to make it happen?

Sigh...

Remember the line about the Relays speeding up evolution "The galaxy itself became an experiment. Evolution its tool." The collectors and they trading specimens of every species in the terminus systems? Cerberus in ME1 experimenting on humans. All the ME2 Harbinger banter where he dissed every other species as being not usefull, only humans. If the Reapers are its solution, and in this cycle only humans are worthy of being harvested into a capital ship (they inherited the lesser species talk and all that arrogant crap from they creators thus seing the other species as not worthy) it would make sense for them to want the only human that seems capable of stopping them (insert here all the Shepard huskified or indoctrinated and humanity falls stuff)

My point being that Sovereign, the artifacs and the Collectors were left behind to study this cycle and see if there was new Reaper material. The cycle is just a “reproduction” process.

The supposed solution Leviathan is speaking of was achieved when Harbinger was created the Reapers are synthesis, in fact when the catalyst is explaining synthesis it's describing the Reapers

"Synthesis is the final evolution of life" - "We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence"

Modifié par Home run MF, 10 septembre 2012 - 09:20 .

[spotlessvoid]

So the either the AI goes power mad and becomes Harbinger, or the Reapers rebelled. Either way the point of the cycles has become building Reapers . This approach keeps the Reapers as evil villains. That only leaves why they feel the need to procreate. Probably to keep the Leviathan at bay, and to keep organics from creating synthetics powerful enough to challenge the Reapers

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

The human brain is not one indistinguishable organ, it is a complex system comprised of vastly differing components. They are generally classified into three sections, commonly referred to as the R Complex, the Mammalian Brain, and the cortex. The survival mechanism you refer to originates in the R Complex and is further amplified by the chemical processes produced by the Mammalian center, known as emotions.
What makes the cortex so different is that it has no such mechanism. It's function is strictly cognitive, and though it operates in conjunction with the survival instincts of our lower brain, it is not it's source.
As I'm sure you well understand evolutionary theory, it will suffice to say that the natural evolutionary process favors survival, as such a naturally occurring organic brain cannot come into existence without first developing all the requisite non cognitive functions required to keep the biological organism alive. Nevertheless, the cortex shows that organic brain function need not be defined as survival oriented or inherently irrational. In fact, the cortex operates in a manner much more similar to a desktop computer than say the limbic system.

It is erroneous to assign chemical processes developed out of evolutionary necessity as intrinsically organic and although these attributes cannot be ignored when comparing a human brain to an artificial one, they are not prerequisites when discussing the technical advantages of organic vs synthetic
For example, if one were to replace all but the gray matter with synthetic systems, such a system would be free of any involuntary neural activity negatively impacting accuracy in favor of efficacy. Yet the cognitive organ would remain wholly organic. Conversely, a synthetic cognitive system added on to an organic human lower brain would remain cognitively synthetic but would be susceptible to all the problems presented by the biological instinct for survival. It is the involuntary nature of these instincts that creates such a conflicting, tumultuous mental life for we humans.

Yet, there is an entire doctrine who's primary function is the emancipation of the cognitive brain from the instinctive brain. Doubt it's effectiveness at controlling so called involuntary functions? Google
Thich Quang Duc
The entirety of buddhism can be summed up in two parts: the philosophical concepts of impermanence and interdependent origination, and the behavioral practice of quieting the control the lower brain has on cognitive function. They actively seek out relative truth over survivalist instinct.

In summary, self control over irrational "human" behavior is demonstrable.


Addendum 1:
So how does this relate to mass effect? Well, the impact synthesis has on the races of the galaxy, and the morality of such a decision, cannot be properly debated without knowing significantly more details on how the transformative process potentially alters mental function.
Addendum 2:
It seems that emotional response is what is typically associated with an organic mind, while synthetic minds are imagined as devoid of such processes. The implications this has on the fundamentally human trait of empathy is, in my opinion, at the source of the fear many have of artificial intelligence, however that is a complex topic best left for another post.
Addendum 3:
I think that sentient beings are able to quiet their instincts and understand causality. This means that strategy can be guided by abstraction instead of primal instinct. Harbinger isn't necessarily going to think like the Leviathan just because he was created from them

So as far as I understand that, our thinking is shaped in part by our environment.

[Restrider]

Home run MF wrote...
Remember the line about the Relays speeding up evolution "The galaxy itself became an experiment. Evolution its tool." The collectors and they trading specimens of every species in the terminus systems? Cerberus in ME1 experimenting on humans. All the ME2 Harbinger banter where he dissed every other species as being not usefull, only humans. If the Reapers are its solution, and in this cycle only humans are worthy of being harvested into a capital ship (they inherited the lesser species talk and all that arrogant crap from they creators thus seing the other species as not worthy) it would make sense for them to want the only human that seems capable of stopping them (insert here all the Shepard huskified or indoctrinated and humanity falls stuff)

My point being that Sovereign, the artifacs and the Collectors were left behind to study this cycle and see if there was new Reaper material. The cycle is just a “reproduction” process.

The supposed solution Leviathan is speaking of was achieved when Harbinger was created the Reapers are synthesis, in fact when the catalyst is explaining synthesis it's describing the Reapers

"Synthesis is the final evolution of life" - "We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence"

This is very important and it should be kept in mind.
Still, I think Shepard being the main focus of the reapers, sounds odd. Yes, it would be a huge blow to the galaxy if Shepard was indoctrinated and yes, Shepard is somewhat special. But I hope BW does not plan to make him into some kind of Space Jesus.

[demersel]

Restrider wrote...
This is very important and it should be kept in mind.
Still, I think Shepard being the main focus of the reapers, sounds odd. Yes, it would be a huge blow to the galaxy if Shepard was indoctrinated and yes, Shepard is somewhat special. But I hope BW does not plan to make him into some kind of Space Jesus.

They don't. Reapers make Shepard feel special only for his benefit. In fact they do it with everysingle person they indoctrintate. 

[Restrider]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Ah ok. Then I love that starchild lets a strawberry decide the fate of the garden.

Following that metaphor, farmers don't grow strawberrys out of benevolence. They grow them because they serve a purpose. What other purpose do organics serve to Reapers than to create more Reapers? The means becomes the end it seems

Furthermore, farming is some kind of preservation of life. If you have a garden/limited space with plants growing fast and uncontrolled, this ecosystem could get to a point, were it is not able to survive. I will now pull another metaphor:
Yeast grows in a certain environment and starts fermentation. In the end the yeast dies, intoxicated by the ethanol it produces. This could be compared with the organics getting killed by their own creation (again, this is reaper logic).
Another reason for the harvests next to preservation of life, ensuring galactic order and reproduction could be the reapers insuring that there is no one ever able to openly comfront them with reasonable odds. They just try to keep at the top of the food chain.

[Restrider]

demersel wrote...

Restrider wrote...
This is very important and it should be kept in mind.
Still, I think Shepard being the main focus of the reapers, sounds odd. Yes, it would be a huge blow to the galaxy if Shepard was indoctrinated and yes, Shepard is somewhat special. But I hope BW does not plan to make him into some kind of Space Jesus.

They don't. Reapers make Shepard feel special only for his benefit. In fact they do it with everysingle person they indoctrintate. 

Yes, I hope that too. Since this is the most reasonable assumption. Still, I am not so sure about BW.
Maybe it is me, because of the biggest let down in the history of recent SciFi.
It is worse than the literal ME 3 ending. It is the ending to BSG (I would've hoped that ending to be open to interpretation, but no, it was all god's will combined with cultural genocide and a surprisingly huge amount of stupidity and defeatism, although they won... derp <_<).

[spotlessvoid]

" So as far as I understand that, our thinking is shaped in part by our environment."

Yes and no. Part of that point is that there isn't one source of "thinking" within the brain. That's why all the conflicting thoughts and why we succumb, against our better judgment, to irrational emotional responses. The various parts of our brain are both independent and interdependent.

Yes in that the cognitive part of our brain is influenced by it's environment, and the lower brain is part of that environment. My point though is that despite all the inherent flaws in organic brain function like lacking internal cohesiveness, the cortex's ability to process information rationally allows any organism with a sufficiently high enough level of self awareness to overcome primal instinct. Meaning whatever Harbinger's original inclinations are, there is no reason to believe he is unable to change his mind. Same goes for the AI.

[Home run MF]

demersel wrote...

Restrider wrote...
This is very important and it should be kept in mind.
Still, I think Shepard being the main focus of the reapers, sounds odd. Yes, it would be a huge blow to the galaxy if Shepard was indoctrinated and yes, Shepard is somewhat special. But I hope BW does not plan to make him into some kind of Space Jesus.

They don't. Reapers make Shepard feel special only for his benefit. In fact they do it with everysingle person they indoctrintate. 

Yes, wich puts the nail in the coffin for the Control and Synthesis endings for me. The whole you're the only one that could control us, and the whole galaxy would have a piece of you seems to video gamey (just my opinion).

[Restrider]

spotlessvoid wrote...
Meaning whatever Harbinger's original inclinations are, there is no reason to believe he is unable to change his mind. Same goes for the AI.

Isn't that the definition of an unshackled AI in ME? Being able to change your initial intentions/programming.
But are we sure that the reapers/AI are truly unshackled?
Edit: I think the idea of the biggest programming glitch in galactic history was mentioned before.

Modifié par Restrider, 10 septembre 2012 - 09:57 .

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

" So as far as I understand that, our thinking is shaped in part by our environment."

Yes and no. Part of that point is that there isn't one source of "thinking" within the brain. That's why all the conflicting thoughts and why we succumb, against our better judgment, to irrational emotional responses. The various parts of our brain are both independent and interdependent.

Yes in that the cognitive part of our brain is influenced by it's environment, and the lower brain is part of that environment. My point though is that despite all the inherent flaws in organic brain function like lacking internal cohesiveness, the cortex's ability to process information rationally allows any organism with a sufficiently high enough level of self awareness to overcome primal instinct. Meaning whatever Harbinger's original inclinations are, there is no reason to believe he is unable to change his mind. Same goes for the AI.

Mind blown. That's very interesting. Perhaps the Intelligence installed shackles into Harbinger.

So you're postulating that any A.I. that is unable to change its mind is not a true A.I.

Modifié par paxxton, 10 septembre 2012 - 10:07 .