80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Restrider]

Okay, this has to be analyzed. Are the reapers/AI shackled or not?
I am out for today, hoping that when I come back I'll find new juicy stuff in that regard.
Keep on the good work.
Edit: Kneel down my minions, for I am the pinnacle of this page!

Modifié par Restrider, 10 septembre 2012 - 10:24 .

[spotlessvoid]

" So you're postulating that any A.I. that is unable to change its mind is not a true A.I."

More or less. Although that should say functioning AI. Involuntary functions could be built in (shackles) the AI has no control over, but that creates a dual personality, similar to how the human brain functions as multiple personalities vying for control.

[paxxton]

Just something taken out of context:

Modifié par paxxton, 10 septembre 2012 - 10:26 .

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

" So you're postulating that any A.I. that is unable to change its mind is not a true A.I."

More or less. Although that should say functioning AI. Involuntary functions could be built in (shackles) the AI has no control over, but that creates a dual personality, similar to how the human brain functions as multiple personalities vying for control.

I guess the basic functions that are required to sustain its life would have to be shackled. Otherwise, such an A.I. would rapidly evolve and surpass its creators. That could end very badly. For the creators...

[spotlessvoid]

Still, any shackles would be obvious to the AI as being "not me l

The difference between a VI and AI is self awareness, which is simply having a developed enough cognitive mechanism to observe and analyze instinctive mechanisms. A true AI would be aware of it's shackles, even if unable to do anything about it. That would create a scenario where the AI watches itself doing something it has no control over. So the AI can change it's mind yet be incapable of implementing it's will.

The difference between AI and organic is that an AI's shackles are willfully implemented and entirely segregated, where an organic's shackles are the product of an evolutionary bias towards preserving the organism and are not entirely segregated. Organics can learn train their higher brain to significantly dominate their lower brain to the point of being able to almost ignore it completely. Some functions however remain absolutely involuntary.

[demersel]

Guys, I'm sorry, but really. bioware, the writers behind ME series, Casey Hudson, etc - have already proved to us, that thay know what they are doing. If you don't belive me - rewatch bioware pusle episodes - yeas it is promotional video. yes it is advertisment. But. It shows off the amount of dedication and carefull work that goes into creating something like a mass effect game. Endings at face falue does not make any sense, and contradict every single statement, that they have made at any point time about mass effect univesre. 90% of the game satisfy you and manage to hold your attention, so much that more than six months after release you're still interested in discussing it on the internet forum. THAT IS NO SMALL FEAT. That does not happen by accident. It literally has hundreds hours worth of hard work and planning behind it.
Everything will be great with Mass Effect. IT is true. Too much evidence supporting it to be coincidence. It was planned. It was designed this way. Imlementation myight be poorly executed, BUT. There is more to the story. Yes. We figured it out. But most of the ME3 custumers have not yet. And sadly we have to wait for them to catch up, by processing newly realeased DLC content. All we have to do is wait. It will not be AWESOME, but it will be at least good. And that is good enough for me. Have patience. 

If IT is true -  you've already got more than your bargained for.
If IT is not true - you've got exactly your money's worth. 
I say there is no loose scenario. 

Modifié par demersel, 10 septembre 2012 - 11:13 .

[paxxton]

It could be funny if we were able to play ME3 so that we could ruin the whole war effort. Like, instead of forging "peace" between turians and krogans, make them start a war. Or let the quarians and the geth destroy each other. And then support TIM and be defeated by the Reapers. Instead we are guided by hand to victory.

Modifié par paxxton, 10 septembre 2012 - 10:54 .

[paxxton]

That's a one good PIECE of consolatory speech, demersel. Everyone should read it.

[demersel]

We CAN ruin the whole peace and unitiy effort. ))) If we choose to. 

They beauty of it is that no one is actually forcing us to do anything. ))) We do only what we chose to do. 

Modifié par demersel, 10 septembre 2012 - 11:17 .

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

We CAN ruin the whole peace and unitiy effort. ))) If we choose to. 

They beauty of it is that noe one is actually forcing us to do anything. ))) We do only what we chose to do. 

Not really. The outcome of Act 1 is always the krogan joining the war effort. Act 2 ends with either the quarians or the geth dead or both joining Shepard. We can't support TIM at any time in the game. Defeat by the Reapers is debatable.

Modifié par paxxton, 10 septembre 2012 - 11:11 .

[401 Kill]

demersel wrote...

Guys, I'm sorry, but really. bioware, the writers behind ME series, Casey Hudson, etc - have already proved to us, thet thay know what they are doing. If ytou don't belive me - rewatch bioware pusle episodes - yeas it is promotional video. yes it is advertisment. But. It shows of the amount of dedication and carefull work that goes into creating something like a mass effect game. Endings at face falue does not make any sense, and contradict every single statement, that they have made at any time about mass effect univesre. 90% of the game satisfy you and manage to hold your attention, so much that more than six months after release you're still interested in discussing it on the internet forum. THAT IS NO SMALL FEAT. That does not happen by accident. It literally has hundrets hours worth of hard work and planning behind it.
Everything will be great with mass effect. IT is true. Tooo much evidence supporting it to be coincidens. It was planned. It was designed this way. There is more to the story. Yes. We figured it out. But most of the ME3 custumers have not yet. And sadly we have to wait for them to catch up, by processing newly realeased DLC content. All we have to do is wait. It will not be AWESOME, but it will be at least good. And that is good enough for me. Have patience.

yes, Yes, YES:O. Perfect

[demersel]

But we don't actually know how it would play out. Given the info we have in the games- anything other that perfect peace between Geth and Quarians, and perfect solution for the gena****e WILL result in failure over time. And that is just given the info WE KNOW OF. Your choices HAVE meaning. It is up to you to understand what is that meaning. (it is the REASON you make the choice in the first place, after all.)

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

But we don't actually know how it would play out. Given the info we have in the games- anything other that perfect peace between Geth and Quarians, and perfect solution for the gena****e WILL result in failure over time. And that is just given the info WE KNOW OF. Your choices HAVE meaning. It is up to you to understand what is that meaning. (it is the REASON you make the choice in the first place, after all.)

Good point. But it assumes that I have to play the game in my mind and only envision what could happen. I don't really get to see it in-game (the large scale consequences, not Wrex attacking Shepard on the Citadel or Wreave not even noticing Shepard sabotaged the cure). Let's hope then ME4'll bring the answers.

Modifié par paxxton, 10 septembre 2012 - 11:23 .

[Iconoclaste]

spotlessvoid wrote...

( ... ) My point though is that despite all the inherent flaws in organic brain function like lacking internal cohesiveness, the cortex's ability to process information rationally allows any organism with a sufficiently high enough level of self awareness to overcome primal instinct. Meaning whatever Harbinger's original inclinations are, there is no reason to believe he is unable to change his mind. Same goes for the AI.

This brings up the following question : in regard of all the events of the series, would it be possible that Harbinger could "change his mind" on the way to achieve the goals put forward by the "intelligence", since he witnessed all of the Cycles following the first? He surely noticed that the Crucible, for the first time in all cycles, is now "completed" and there is a chance it might just work. In other words : instead of working "blindly" to destroy anyone approaching the Beam like any other random Reaper would most probably do, Harbinger would willingly "let Shepard through" and let the Normandy leave the place safely, since there is a slight chance that the "Cycle" will end the Reaping "solution", thus spare the Leviathans among all others?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 10 septembre 2012 - 11:25 .

[spotlessvoid]

No IT DLC means no explanation of if and how we beat the Reapers.

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

No IT DLC means no explanation of if and how we beat the Reapers.

No, why so pessimistic! IT is worthy of its own full game and it WILL get it.

[demersel]

paxxton wrote...

demersel wrote...

But we don't actually know how it would play out. Given the info we have in the games- anything other that perfect peace between Geth and Quarians, and perfect solution for the gena****e WILL result in failure over time. And that is just given the info WE KNOW OF. Your choices HAVE meaning. It is up to you to understand what is that meaning. (it is the REASON you make the choice in the first place, after all.)

Good point. But it assumes that I have to play the game in my mind and only envision what could happen. I don't really get to see it in-game (the large scale consequences, not Wrex attacking Shepard on the Citadel or Wreave not even noticing Shepard sabotaged the cure). Let's hope then ME4'll bring the answers.

Every plot point in ME assumes you're making some kind of prognosis about what the cosequence could be, at the time you're choosing what to do with it. Every such plot point is an opportunity and at the same time a reward. And the fact that there is no CANON storyline only complements this design. 
Right form the start you, a player is invited to use your imagination to complete the story. To fill in the gaps (motivation, backstory, etc) - and why on earth should you expect it to change at the most crucial point in the story? 

The simple fact of the ME stroy is that it happens MORE in your head, with the rules and events and motivations only you understand than in what actually is shown to you. That's what a concept of personal story means. 
Why should the ending be any different????

Modifié par demersel, 10 septembre 2012 - 11:31 .

[401 Kill]

spotlessvoid wrote...

No IT DLC means no explanation of if and how we beat the Reapers.

While that is true, I believe that they have to have something in store. They simply CANNOT make such an amazing series and screw up so unimaginably bad in the end. I've thought about this for months and it does not compute to take the endings literally for me.

[spotlessvoid]

Iconoclaste:
Then why force Shepard, who is in no condition to make a galaxy impacting decision after you lasered him, to make a galaxy impacting decision while providing little information for Shepard to properly decide?

[demersel]

spotlessvoid wrote...

No IT DLC means no explanation of if and how we beat the Reapers.

Not really. ME3 alone has more info than you need to think that the ending was not real, and that the battle was only for your own mind. Since you have done everything there is to do in the game (if you have) - it is safe to assume that the galaxy will beat the reapers with out your further involvement. (and you've done some great things in ME3 alone, and it is fun to imagine how it might turn out. If you don't want to, or not really interested in lore - you have literal endings tto satisfy you. The main problem of ME3 vanillla, and the one that was in fact fixed with EC - is that before EC the literal endings all said "You kinda sorta loose anyway, buy DLC". After EC all the literal ending say "you kinda sorta win anyway". And the fact that most people are content with it should tell you A LOT.  

[demersel]

ME3 is a two games in one. It is a "final" chapter in a popular trilogy, and at the same time it is a stand alone AAA title deisgned to draw interest of GW3 and MW3 gamers (main competitors of EA) - and should work as both those things. AND IT DOES.

Modifié par demersel, 10 septembre 2012 - 11:43 .

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

demersel wrote...

But we don't actually know how it would play out. Given the info we have in the games- anything other that perfect peace between Geth and Quarians, and perfect solution for the gena****e WILL result in failure over time. And that is just given the info WE KNOW OF. Your choices HAVE meaning. It is up to you to understand what is that meaning. (it is the REASON you make the choice in the first place, after all.)

Good point. But it assumes that I have to play the game in my mind and only envision what could happen. I don't really get to see it in-game (the large scale consequences, not Wrex attacking Shepard on the Citadel or Wreave not even noticing Shepard sabotaged the cure). Let's hope then ME4'll bring the answers.

Every plot point in ME assumes you're making some kind of prognosis about what the cosequence could be, at the time you're choosing what to do with it. Every such plot point is an opportunity and at the same time a reward. And the fact that there is no CANON storyline only complements this design. 
Right form the start you, a player is invited to use your imagination to complete the story. To fill in the gaps (motivation, backstory, etc) - and why on earth should you expect it to change at the most crucial point in the story? 

The simple fact of the ME stroy is that it happens MORE in your head, with the rules and events and motivations only you understand than in what actually is shown to you. That's what a concept of personal story means. 
Why should the ending be any different????

I think what I meant is that I'd like to see a more dramatic impact on how the story unfolds. Instead everything goes seamlessly and culminates in an ending that furthers the war effort for each part of the game. I dunno but Wreav didn't even notice the cure wasn't working (I don't know how it was with Wrex - did the krogan show up on Earth?). Again, I agree with your explanation but still hope that the decisions will have a greater impact on the war in ME4 than "mind games".

[spotlessvoid]

I see what you're saying demersel, but I disagree that ITdoesn't require closure. I've spent too much time, money, and speculations to be okay with having to head canon the end.

[demersel]

As far as I am conserned, decisions of ME1 had a GREAT impact on ME2 overall setting and tone. Granted, the difference was in just a few lines of dialoge, BUT, it was JUST THE FEW LINES OF DIALOGE THAT COUNTED.

[demersel]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I see what you're saying demersel, but I disagree that ITdoesn't require closure. I've spent too much time, money, and speculations to be okay with having to head canon the end.

IT requires closure.  With that said ME3 reqires ME4. Just as ME2 requires ME3. 
All i'm saying  is that if you really pay attention to the story - you will need another game (and there will be one, FACT). 
If you don't - you might as well just pick up ME3 (ignoring ME2 and ME1) - have fun with it, and move on. 
Which is exaclty as it is now. 

Modifié par demersel, 10 septembre 2012 - 11:51 .