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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#21751
Dendio1

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

I gave up on IT theory a while ago, but I want cookies...

Define "gave up". Do you mean you no longer think BW intended IT, or you no longer think BW will fix the end somehow?


Until the dlc stops flowing there will always be a chance for these things to be included in the game, but realistically, after all thats happened, I don't expect anything more than what bioware has already told us. They are largely leaving the ending alone and working on middle of plot dlc.

I think the ending has been fixed greatly compared to what we got originally. I also think IT was not intended by bioware.

Everything from final hours to EC to leviathan suggests that shepard was unaffected by indoctrination.

All that said, it was really fun going back through the game and looking for clues. So many awesome contributions arose among our community from amazing vids to thought provoking threads.

Searching for IT clues and such while waiting for EC to come out ended up feeling like an extension of the end-game.
I only ever really felt like I had finished the journey after seeing the normandy take off for my shep (EC destroy ending)

Happily, its not really over yet, because more dlc is on the way.

Modifié par Dendio1, 14 septembre 2012 - 01:02 .


#21752
BansheeOwnage

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Lokanaiya wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Home run MF wrote...
Posted Image

Craziness: NO.3L.9 = Noel = christmas = DLC [/craziness] Posted Image


Don't they have something in the Vancouver map that hints at Christmas too? You might be on to something.

They do. There is also a present-pack in the files in multiplayer. As well as a Cerberus one, reaper, geth etc.

#21753
BansheeOwnage

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Hrothdane wrote...

I finalyl went back and looked at some screenshots I took while playing through ME3 again. In pretty much every area of the game that has computer screens, the same information scrolls through them. I tried to get the best quality zoom I could in game to see what they said.

For reference, I took these pictures in the Ardat-Yakshi monastery, but as I said earlier, the text appears to be the same everywhere.

Picture 1
Picture 2
Picture 3
Picture 4
Picture 5
Picture 6

I haven't noticed anything particularly mind-blowing on my own, though it does appear that Commander, Normandy, and N7 appear. I figured I might as well put these out there for you guys to see if you notice anything.

Hello Hrothdane! Posted Image I can't make much out besides what you did. Did you read the wall of text I posted a few days ago? I would like you input. Posted Image

#21754
TSA_383

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byne wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

Posted earlier by Doveberry, the first who sees it gets a cookie. If you where here when it was posted don't say anything :P 
Posted Image


IN.TRN8?

Oh my god, I think I'm about to fall off my chair laughing :lol:
I searched the others to see if anything interesting would pop up - here's google's #1 result for A 10.25:
http://answers.yahoo...10125214AA5RkBz 

#21755
Hrothdane

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

I finalyl went back and looked at some screenshots I took while playing through ME3 again. In pretty much every area of the game that has computer screens, the same information scrolls through them. I tried to get the best quality zoom I could in game to see what they said.

For reference, I took these pictures in the Ardat-Yakshi monastery, but as I said earlier, the text appears to be the same everywhere.

Picture 1
Picture 2
Picture 3
Picture 4
Picture 5
Picture 6

I haven't noticed anything particularly mind-blowing on my own, though it does appear that Commander, Normandy, and N7 appear. I figured I might as well put these out there for you guys to see if you notice anything.

Hello Hrothdane! Posted Image I can't make much out besides what you did. Did you read the wall of text I posted a few days ago? I would like you input. Posted Image


I don't think I did. If you could link it for me, I would appreciate it.

#21756
Lokanaiya

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Also, I'm not sure whether others have mentioned this, but when I playing through Overlord recently, I noticed that there are also T78 signs in Hermes station.

#21757
BansheeOwnage

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Sorry Hrothdane, it took me forever to find it again (I didn't want to paste it from word because the bold and italics don't work). And nice avatar! :)

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Pass or Fail?: The Extended Cut

Note: I will refer to the child using his original title: The Guardian. I will also include information about the Leviathan DLC in this. If you don’t want spoilers, don’t read the marked sections.

So, I decided to try to objectively asses the performance of the Extended Cut DLC to see how it stacked up in actuality compared to their promises. That said, I know some will be subjective, so feel free to disagree, but I’m writing this from my point of view. I also want to note that this is strictly written from a literal point of view, so no IT, WNT, or other alternate-reality interpretations apply here. For the most part, this is not trying to persuade you to pick certain choices, nor will it touch the moral and ethical debates about the choices.

What did the EC promise? Simple. 2 things: For us to be able to see the consequences of our choices on the galaxy, and to provide additional closure.

Impacts of choices: The EC, in my opinion, did an merely adequate job of showing the impacts. It was passable, though a lot of parts were vague.

Destroy: Basically Hackett’s entire speech is vague. He doesn’t mention the Geth or EDI once. Why not? They have to die in this ending, supposedly. So why not mention them. On that note, why doesn’t he mention Shepard? I shouldn’t even have to say this. There is even a low EMS version of this ending, where Shepard dies. He doesn’t mention Shepard’s sacrifice in the low EMS version, and doesn’t mention any of his/her achievements is high EMS. How do you have an ending to a trilogy like this and not even mention the main character in the end speech? He also states quite confidently about how they can rebuild. When did they learn how to make mass relays? In fact, I remember a certain asari matriarch who suggested studying them, and she was essentially laughed at, which makes sense, considering the relays are reaper tech; the reapers wouldn’t want any organics to learn their secrets. So we can assume there has been next to no studying of relays. How would the decimated survivors be able to study and build them? A better question: how would they coordinate linking the relays, without the communication necessary to do so? The Crucible is a weapon battery precise enough to change the “matrix” of synthetic and organic life down to the DNA, yet it can’t target only reapers in destroy? Really? Levy spoilers: I don’t know about you, but I think the leviathans are just as dangerous as the reapers. With the reapers gone, and the galaxy in utter ruins, this is a perfect opportunity for the leviathans to retake their former throne. Since there are no slides involving leviathans (why?) we can only guess at what happens, adding to the vagueness of this choice. [/Levy spoilers]

Control: This one probably wins for being explained the best. It is much better in EC than it was originally. It definitely still has some vague elements though. For instance: does Shepard replace the Guardian, or just exist at the same time? If he betrayed his creators, who’s to say he won’t betray Shepard too? The Guardian stated that he was the “collective intelligence of all reapers”. Does this mean when Shepard becomes the new reaper-guiding AI, that (s)he becomes the reapers? Or does it mean Shepard kills the reapers and personally uses all of their bodies? Does Shepard simply replace the Guardian and the reapers simply obey him/her? An interesting question: If the crucible does not discriminate, and therefore targets all synthetics in destroy, this leaves us with 2 options.

1. Shepard also controls the Geth, as well as EDI, because the control beam will not discriminate and will target all synthetics. If the destroy beam also destroys/disables VI systems as well as ships and weapons as stated by the Guardian., that would also mean Shepard should basically control all starships and computers, as well as weapons. That’s a lot of power for one entity.

2. The crucible does in fact discriminate, and will only target reapers. This in turn means the Guardian was lying to you.

Levy spoilers:We really have no idea how powerful the leviathans are, but we do know they can destroy a sovereign-class reaper with their minds. I can see how this could be problematic for Shepard in control. I also think they would employ thralls to counter Shep-reapers, seeing as how they are essentially the same as normal reapers. Not good. [/Levy spoilers]

Refuse: This is an extremely vague ending “choice”. It raises about as many questions as synthesis. The reason many people can’t really achieve consensus about this ending is because it is too vague to make conclusions about. I mean, it itself is vague as a choice, because we a lot of stuff is implied to happen, but we don’t get to see anything. For instance, what does Shepard do after refusing to activate the crucible? Does (s)he just stand there, watching the allied fleets get destroyed? It’s well established that Shepard’s radio is acting extremely inconsistently is the ending, but why doesn’t Shepard try to contact Hackett at any point? It can be assumed that everyone[/i] dies in this ending, but it does not show anything. No heroic last stands of important characters, no fleets being destroyed save one shot of a reaper destroying an alliance vessel. The only way to know what for sure what happens in this ending, is to look through the game files to show all squadmates being dead. That’s not what I would call a clear ending. It is not clear why the Guardian continues to fight the fleets if he wants Shepard to choose an option. Even if Shepard refused, why wouldn’t he just get any other person to do it? How did Liara (especially if she’s dead) manage to have the time capsules say that the Crucible didn’t work? How would she even know that? If it fired, but didn’t kill the reapers, it would be logical to assume it didn’t work. However, for all anyone but Shepard knows, the crucible, for whatever reason, simply didn’t fire. That’s no reason to say that. How did the next cycle defeat the reapers? I know Mike Gamble said that, they use the crucible, but that is a fallacy. Also, Twitter =/= canon. Here's how I see it:

1. The next cycle used the crucible to beat the reapers. Which option did they pick? They didn’t pick synthesis (no glowing things), so presumably destroy. But it's so vague. We fought a battle (and lost horribly) so the next cycle could win 50000 years later? Makes no sense. Plus if they used the crucible to beat them that just makes refuse pointless. Actually, that means in half of the endings (destroy and refuse) Shepard is too stubborn to accept their enemies logic...

2. How did they use the crucible? It's completely implausible that the reapers would allow them to come anywhere near that end. They even knew about its existence “several cycles ago” and failed to eliminate the evidence. Logic would dictate they would try much harder next time. This leaves 2 possibilities:
A. The crucible is of reaper design, used every cycle to trick the resistance. They next cycle then uses that reaper tech. Great idea.
B. The reapers are retarded and even though they failed at hiding the crucible before, they didn't learn from their mistakes and let the next cycle use it?

3. Ignore Gamble; they didn't use the crucible. Basically impossible. The vanguard would not let them amass such an enormous fleet large enough to take on the reaper armada.

4. They only reason the council cycle did so well was because of Shepard, Sovereign's failures, and a lot of luck. The reapers wouldn't let that happen again.
 
5. Levy spoilers: I’ll let you all wonder how the Leviathans existing and their heavy influence would do to this. [/Levy spoilers]

Synthesis: It is close to refuse in terms of vagueness, but probably takes the cake for Most vague ending ever. Of all time™. Why doesn’t EDI mention Shepard in it? Surely it is only because of Shepard that synthesis is achieved. What a nice send-off... It doesn’t do a good job showing how synthesis actually changes things, besides adding green circuit boards to everything. How does it work? There isn’t even a codex entry on this attempting to explain it. What are its actual impacts, besides, apparently, creating instant utopia? Are plants sentient now? If not, then is it saying plants could never become sentient? What about the Thorian? And if plants do become sentient, what does that do to herbivores? Are they murdering other sentient life when they eat? The same can now be asked about all life. How do we eat anything, if we’re murdering it? Or does synthesis make food no longer a necessity? Or, once again, is it implying certain things just can’t evolve? That’s not how evolution works. Nor does evolution just stop as soon as we get circuit boards. If synthesis doesn’t make all humans able to see in infrared, use echo-location, or grow gills then it is not the end of evolution. I don’t even think there is an end to evolution. Maybe we don’t need to breath anymore in synthesis? EDI also mentioned that the reapers, and the species that they are based on, are now connected to all of us. Does that remind anyone of indoctrination? This would also contradict what Shepard said earlier about this topic.

“You-– Whatever species you came from, before the reapers decided to preserve them? They’re dead. They died thousands of years ago. *Reaper dies* And now they can rest in peace.” – Shepard

So was Shepard wrong, and the reapers do actually preserve species properly? Or was the Guardian wrong? If the latter is true, we should doubt much more than just that thought. Many questions.

Levy spoilers: Again, we have no slides of the leviathans, so we can only guess as to what they would try to do in synthesis. I am going to take a wild guess here and say they would definitely not appreciate being “synthesized”. They already consider themselves to be an “apex race”. Seeing as they are an “apex race”, and care not for any “lesser” species, one could assume they would attempt to regain their former authority. Like EDI said, all races are now supposed to be “connected”. To me, that just sounds like an easier way for the Leviathans to hijack people’s minds. I don’t think they’d like being connected to lesser species either. [/Levy spoilers]
What about the Synthehusk™? Is it, not to mention other reaper thralls like banshees, a part of galactic society now? What about the reapers? If we believe the Guardian about synthesis working, and the reapers actually being benevolent saviours, then we should also believe what Sovereign said about the reapers being at the “pinnacle of evolution”. Or should we just pick and choose what parts of what the reapers tell us to believe? If “synthesis is the final evolution of all life” according to the Guardian, then what how could the reapers, who are already there, be elevated?

One more question among many, and perhaps the most important one: Does synthesis change the way people think; rewrite them? I believe the short answer is yes, based on in-game evidence. Since there are many, many, many, quotes from characters stating they would only accept the reapers if they were dead, I’ll only cite what I thought to be the most important ones.

 “Dead reapers are how we win this.” – Hackett

 “Because the Reapers are repulsive. They are dedicated to nothing but self-preservation. I am different.” – EDI

 “I am here to fight the Reapers. That is my purpose. My only purpose. I am the avatar of vengeance, the last voice of a dead race. I will avenge my people, no matter the cost.” – Javik

I chose these because, as far as I can remember, it is impossible to achieve synthesis with low enough EMS to have squadmates die, therefore Javik must survive. EDI and Hackett also must survive. What do squadmates think of being rewritten?

“If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them. They will be something new in the same body.” – Samara

“That sounds dangerously close to indoctrination, unless there’s something I’m missing.” – Garrus

And perhaps the most applicable, seeing as how synthesis seems to create a utopia:

“If you screwed with my head, made me nod and smile at everything... I’d rather you blew my head off. Let me die as me.” - Jack

My point is, synthesis is a no win scenario. If it does not rewrite people, then Javik, Hackett, logically EDI, and many others would continue to fight the reapers. If they do not, they are rewritten and are therefore dead. As you can see, synthesis now raises more questions, and answers few. Not exactly what I’d call viewing the impacts of our choices.

So what do you think? For the first part of EC’s promises, showing the consequences of our choices, does EC pass or fail?

Going to eat dinner. Back later. Any constructive criticism for this forst half would be great! Thanks! Posted Image



#21758
Uby

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Lokanaiya wrote...

Also, I'm not sure whether others have mentioned this, but when I playing through Overlord recently, I noticed that there are also T78 signs in Hermes station.


I was playing ME2 again and I also noticed that sign on the Raya, where Tali's trial take place.
I noticed when I was coming back from the Alerai and entenring the trial room.
Dont know if it means anything though..., I thought it only apperead on locations where there was indoctrination danger, but can't explain it on the Raya.

#21759
TheConstantOne

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Home run MF wrote...

Posted earlier by Doveberry, the first who sees it gets a cookie. If you where here when it was posted don't say anything :P 
Posted Image


Cool find! I'm definitely starting to believe that there is something to the idea of a dlc around Christmas.  

As for the IN.CTRN8 .... hopefully Bioware isn't trolling us.  We'll see haha

#21760
FFZero

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This may have been mentioned before but I just replayed the ending of Leviathan again and isn’t the sound effect that occurs when Shepard wakes up in the mech after talking with the Leviathans the same sound that plays when Shepard is shocked awake on the Citadel at the end?

Also, cool finds on those screens. Another point to the Vancouver Easter eggs = DLC timeline theory :D

#21761
Lokanaiya

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Any idea on what the other murder names could mean?

#21762
paxxton

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What's up with that pic?

#21763
prettz

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here is a 7680 x 4320
of the wall.
Posted Image

#21764
Dwailing

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Hey Prettz, what do you see? Or do you not see anything and you want to see if we see anything?

#21765
Lokanaiya

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For those of you who don't venture outside the safety of this thread, Bioware just released an official survey regarding BSN:

http://social.biowar.../index/14081735

#21766
FFZero

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prettz wrote...

here is a 7680 x 4320
of the wall.
Posted Image


What is that thing in the picture below the Thorian on the left side of the image? That doesn’t look like any alien we’ve seen before in the series. Also what are those winged creatures at the bottom of the image? I first thought they were the creatures Harvesters are made from but  it looks a bit too small and the shape of the head is different.

#21767
Hrothdane

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FFZero wrote...

prettz wrote...

here is a 7680 x 4320
of the wall.
Posted Image


What is that thing in the picture below the Thorian on the left side of the image? That doesn’t look like any alien we’ve seen before in the series. Also what are those winged creatures at the bottom of the image? I first thought they were the creatures Harvesters are made from but  it looks a bit too small and the shape of the head is different.


I think that unknown alien is whatever the giant things on the Leviathan cave paintings are. Their bust has a very similar silhouette.

#21768
BleedingUranium

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Home run MF wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Kinda makes me wish I hadn't known the entire plot of ME1/2 before playing them Posted Image


Who spoiled it? Or was it yourself? 


I did. I knew nothing about Mass Effect except the title until I played the ME3 demo at the beginning of the year. I then looked up everything I could about 1 and 2 so I could do good playthroughs in time for ME3's release. Didn't spoil ME3 though Posted Image


401 Kill wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...
I thought Leviathan was quite good. No earth shattering revelations, but good, and a lot more points for IT.

This is why the end felt mediocre.

Wait, what? That music played on mine, I swear!

It did? I remember BleedingUranium saying that it was cut and never apeared in-game.


Well, I have yet to do or see a playthrough were there was music, and I happened across that track and put two and two together. It wasn't officially stated somewhere or anything. If someone has evidence that it can play, I'd like to see it. I hope they patch the music in sometime Posted Image

#21769
BleedingUranium

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TheConstantOne wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

Posted earlier by Doveberry, the first who sees it gets a cookie. If you where here when it was posted don't say anything :P 
Posted Image


Cool find! I'm definitely starting to believe that there is something to the idea of a dlc around Christmas.  

As for the IN.CTRN8 .... hopefully Bioware isn't trolling us.  We'll see haha


Damn! Posted Image'd I was just about to point out the "IN.CTRN8"

IN  "dot" CTRN  "eight"

#21770
Guest_magnetite_*

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I'll keep my fingers crossed and remain highly optimistic. Either Omega, or something even beyond that (eg. final DLC for ME3).

Modifié par magnetite, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:00 .


#21771
Uby

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BleedingUranium wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

Posted earlier by Doveberry, the first who sees it gets a cookie. If you where here when it was posted don't say anything :P 
Posted Image


Cool find! I'm definitely starting to believe that there is something to the idea of a dlc around Christmas.  

As for the IN.CTRN8 .... hopefully Bioware isn't trolling us.  We'll see haha


Damn! Posted Image'd I was just about to point out the "IN.CTRN8"

IN  "dot" CTRN  "eight"


Oh man! Is Bioware messing with our heads? :blink:

#21772
BansheeOwnage

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magnetite wrote...

Posted Image


I'll keep my fingers crossed and remain highly optimistic. Either Omega, or something even beyond that (eg. final DLC for ME3).

Yeah, that has to mean something! Oh, and Omega will most definitely have some awesome twist. It's either reaper-made or reaper-designed, Cerberus wants it badly for unknown reasons, and it's near the omega-4 relay. Plus people won't want to buy anything that doesn't make the end better. There's a lot to work with there. If you want to be really optimistic, it could also package IT with it, seeing as how no one would expect it. It is the Omega (end of the alphabet) DLC after all.

#21773
paxxton

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Strangely silent about upcoming DLCs, don't you think?

#21774
401 Kill

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paxxton wrote...

Strangely silent about upcoming DLCs, don't you think?

We're they like this for ME2 and ME DLC?

#21775
BansheeOwnage

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401 Kill wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Strangely silent about upcoming DLCs, don't you think?

We're they like this for ME2 and ME DLC?

Every DLC for ME3 has been leaked so far, but now we have no idea what they're doing besides Omega. It's very odd, and no one on the forums has anything productive to discuss. We know they're working on MP DLC, but not what. As for ME2, I know a lot or all of it was leaked.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:13 .