80611 réponses à ce sujet

[paxxton]

OMGsideboob wrote...

Regardless of the ending, you didnt see Master Chief, Sonic, Mario, Crash Bandicoot, Marcus Fenix nor Capt Price die in the endings of their trilogies... Yes, to me Shepard belongs amongst the all-time greats of video game characters...

Shepard ending this way... doesn't feel right. I'm a Mass Effect n00b, but I still hope there's some way this will come about with Shepard living. I mean, he/she has already died once... Commander Shepard doesnt fear death, death fears Commander Shepard. lol

I think many people here share your opinion. BioWare shouldn't end Shepard's story like that, leaving players in the dark, without any closure whatsoever. But I strongly believe this is not the end and we will hear about Shepard once again.

[paxxton]

BioWare! You must not kill the goose that lays golden eggs. lol

Modifié par paxxton, 14 septembre 2012 - 04:45 .

[RavenEyry]

I wouldn't have minded Shep dying if it actually fit instead of because the plot device says so. The choice-o-matic could easily have been three non-fatal buttons.

[paxxton]

The point is that everybody knows that Shepard is still alive (the breathe scene) and the game just cuts the story in the middle.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

paxxton wrote...

The point is that everybody knows that Shepard is still alive (the breathe scene) and the game just cuts the story in the middle.

....Okay, I get way too excited thinking the end of ME3 (as we saw it) was actually just the ending of the middle of the entire game. Do it Bioware, we won't regret it!

[paxxton]

Definitely we won't. ME4 will be released on the next-gen consoles and that alone will make it mind-blowingly oddsome.

Modifié par paxxton, 14 septembre 2012 - 05:17 .

[Restrider]

Yeah, it would be awesome. And get Drew back for the main story.

[RavenEyry]

An ME4 of some kind is virtually guaranteed. Whether it'll be any good is another question.

[paxxton]

We can never know for sure until it's out. But high hopes would be appropriate.

[AllegedVixEo]

 

paxxton wrote...

OMGsideboob wrote...

Regardless of the ending, you didnt see Master Chief, Sonic, Mario, Crash Bandicoot, Marcus Fenix nor Capt Price die in the endings of their trilogies... Yes, to me Shepard belongs amongst the all-time greats of video game characters...

Shepard ending this way... doesn't feel right. I'm a Mass Effect n00b, but I still hope there's some way this will come about with Shepard living. I mean, he/she has already died once... Commander Shepard doesnt fear death, death fears Commander Shepard. lol

I think many people here share your opinion. BioWare shouldn't end Shepard's story like that, leaving players in the dark, without any closure whatsoever. But I strongly believe this is not the end and we will hear about Shepard once again.

 

RavenEyry wrote...

I wouldn't have minded Shep dying if it actually fit instead of because the plot device says so. The choice-o-matic could easily have been three non-fatal buttons.

Shepard takes a personal journey throughout all three games that couldn't be any better id the story line were to continue.  

ME1: You're granted Spectre status shortly before being completely discredited by the Council who insist the Reapers don't exist.  On your own with a select team of comrades, blasting through hoards of villianized Geth to get to Saren, only to learn that Saren is being controlled by a Reaper.

ME2: You are killed, destroyed and torn apart by Harbinger right at the beginning of the game.  You are dead for 2 years and then reanimated by a terrorist group.  Confused, even a little vulnerable, you are practically exiled to the Terminus systems by the Council and being used like a pawn to track down Reapers, by Cerberus, who are almost the only people in the universe who actually believe you. Finding unlikely friends in Cerberus, the Alliance and even the Geth along the way, relinquishing any personal biases about tech vs organic with the on-boarding of Legion, establishing a tumultuous relationship with Kaiden (or Ashley), blowing up a colony of Batarians in Arrival to stop the Reapers from descending (that's the final nail in the coffin right there, if you ask me).  

ME3: Reapers are on your doorstep, experiencing mental exhaustion, uncertainty surrounding who you are (post-cerberus re-build) and what is going to happen in this final stand off, experiencing the aftermath of multiple sacrifices of close friends and acquaintences, emergence of a "real" EDI, furthering understanding of AI as a form of life, helping to cure the genophage, helping to unite the Geth and the Quarians, more mental exhaustion, uniting the entire galaxy against a common enemy, completing the Crucible, acknowledging love and friendship, stakes have never been higher....  To me, this is the moment in which Shepard chooses: sacrifice.  

She's tired, angry, sad, loved. she has blood on her hands and the weight of the galaxy on her shoulders, standing at the end of the world with a decision to make.  The Deus Ex Machina ending doesn't really bother me here (or make me think this is a Hallucination or Illusion) because we don't actually know what the Crucible is intended to do throughout the entire game until this point.  We assume it is just a big gun, but since it has never been completed we have no frame of reference for that assumption.  

When the Crucible is united with Citadel, at first, Hackett believes that it's not working - that's when the Catalyst shows up as an indication that the Crucible is, in fact, working as intended - at which point Shepard's decision, the Deus Ex Machina mechanism that the creators through in at the end, is what fires the gun.  

In a way, in doing the ending in this way, we are forced to put ourselves in Shepard's shoes and say, "What decision would Shepard make?" and that makes it even more difficult, emotionally, for the gamer end user.  I think that was the whole point of the ending.  BIoware is trying to make us feel like Shepard.  Throughout 3 games, we watch Shepard go through this remarkable transformation from ordinary person to Spectre to Hero of the Galaxy, from a person with strong convictions in ME 1 to this well rounded individual with wisdom beyong her years that can only be gained through personal experience and tragedy, and finally into this incredibly strong person who carries with them a lot of grief, and who is willing to do whatever it takes to stop the Reapers and save the galaxy she has come to love and cherish.  At the end, for a few minutes, we stop watching Shepard and put ourselves in the emotional mindset to make that final choice, and then we go back to watching as the cut scenes roll...  I think it's really brilliant, but not the sign of an indoctrinated Shepard.

[RavenEyry]

AllegedVixEo wrote...

In a way, in doing the ending in this way, we are forced to put ourselves in Shepard's shoes and say, "What decision would Shepard make?" and that makes it even more difficult, emotionally, for the gamer end user.

No it makes it so much easier. Only derp Shepard would do anything but destroy.

[Wayning_Star]

Maybe the Leviathan will help destroy, right after they enthrall you into their service.. They talk Shepard into believing that they'll actually 'help' destroy the reapers..who actually work for them via the catalyst.

And the beat goes on..and the beat goes on..an on an on an on...

[Iconoclaste]

RavenEyry wrote...

AllegedVixEo wrote...

In a way, in doing the ending in this way, we are forced to put ourselves in Shepard's shoes and say, "What decision would Shepard make?" and that makes it even more difficult, emotionally, for the gamer end user.

No it makes it so much easier. Only derp Shepard would do anything but destroy.

"Derp"... ?

[paxxton]

Iconoclaste wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

AllegedVixEo wrote...

In a way, in doing the ending in this way, we are forced to put ourselves in Shepard's shoes and say, "What decision would Shepard make?" and that makes it even more difficult, emotionally, for the gamer end user.

No it makes it so much easier. Only derp Shepard would do anything but destroy.

"Derp"... ?

Meaning "retarded" or "weed-smoking". He's wrong, don't listen to him.

Modifié par paxxton, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:30 .

[paxxton]

Anyway, that is a well-thought post but the problem is that you just don't end a good story like that. You don't show the main character lying in the rubble, obviously alive when he's supposed to be flying in outer space torn into atoms, and then tell everyone that he's taking his last breath after death.

Modifié par paxxton, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:37 .

[SubAstris]

paxxton wrote...

Anyway, that is a well-thought post but the problem is that you just don't end a good story like that. You don't show the main character lying in the rubble, obviously alive when he's supposed to be flying in outer space torn into atoms, and then tell everyone that he's taking his last breath after death.

I don't think anyone can be the arbiter of what makes a "good story". "Good" in what way? It is very much subjective

[spotlessvoid]

SubAstris wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Anyway, that is a well-thought post but the problem is that you just don't end a good story like that. You don't show the main character lying in the rubble, obviously alive when he's supposed to be flying in outer space torn into atoms, and then tell everyone that he's taking his last breath after death.

I don't think anyone can be the arbiter of what makes a "good story". "Good" in what way? It is very much subjective

Yet the fan outrage was overwhelming. The plot holes are massive in the ending-those aren't subjective. I'd be okay with crucible being a trap but there's nothing to conclude that in the ending slideshow. It's a pick thecolor of your victory in the EC, and preEC was worse on the opposite end of the spectrum

[paxxton]

SubAstris wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Anyway, that is a well-thought post but the problem is that you just don't end a good story like that. You don't show the main character lying in the rubble, obviously alive when he's supposed to be flying in outer space torn into atoms, and then tell everyone that he's taking his last breath after death.

I don't think anyone can be the arbiter of what makes a "good story". "Good" in what way? It is very much subjective

Yup, good is a very broad term. Logical and coherent. Unless there's something more to the ending, it doesn't make sense with the breath scene.

[AllegedVixEo]

paxxton wrote...

Anyway, that is a well-thought post but the problem is that you just don't end a good story like that. You don't show the main character lying in the rubble, obviously alive when he's supposed to be flying in outer space torn into atoms, and then tell everyone that he's taking his last breath after death.

Thanks.  In my mind, the destroy ending wasn't the "last breath" but just an indication that Shepard was still alive somewhere.  Did BW ever come out and confirm it was a last breath?  I missed that.  

I've played the game through a whole bunch of times now and ended it different ways, and after the extended cut and much thoughtful consideration eventually landed on the "Synthesis" ending, and I am happy with my "Derp." ending.  I have a completely unsubstantiated feeling that if they do put out another ME game (outside of the Shepard story of course) that it could take place many, many years in the future and everything will be synthesized anyway.  The catalyst did say, "Now that we know it can be accomplished, synthesis in inevitable" or something to that effect.

Also, after watching all the endings with the extended cut DLC, synthesis was the best one.  It took awhile for me to come to terms with Shepard sacrificing herself, but given the context of everything (as I explained it in my previous post) it made sense to me, after all.  I kept my game on the destroy ending, while waiting for the extended cut, and rationalized it to myself by saying "Shepard would want to destroy the Reapers at all costs, and wouldn't make a decision like synthesis on the word of the Catalyst alone".  But then Leviathan came out, and I accidentally saved over my end game save, so I had to play it through again, and I am kind of glad I did.  

Leviathan provides a more obtuse history for the Reapers, and specifically talks about them in terms of being a "solution".  The Leviathan of Dis more or less fills Shepard in before she even gets to the Catalyst, and confirms a lot of what the Catalyst is telling her.  It makes the Catalyst seem a little more intentional and less sporadic, and more of a trustworthy source.  In light of the info bestowed upon Shepard in Leviathan, and the context of my long winded post above, I don't have any objections to the "space magic" of synthesis, and it seems like a better solution for a character that does not want to wipe out the geth and all AIs/synthetics.  The Alliance soldier in her would have wanted to wipe out all the Reapers, destroying all synthetics in the galaxy, including friend EDI and the Geth that Legion sacrificed himself to preserve.  Cerberus would try to influence her to control, but controlling would take away the free will of synthetics making Legion's sacrifice in vein, and one would have to assume that in order to be successful.  Shepard feels empowered to make her own decision in the synthesis ending, dispelling any influences from the Alliance or Cerberus and ultimately, ending the cycle and effectively saving the galaxy.

[spotlessvoid]

It's obvious Bioware spent no time on the EC...I'd guess even the EC dialogue was recorded during the Leviathan VA sessions. I mean common...slide shows?

[Ducktroll]

Apologies, this is almost completely off-topic, but I saw a kick-starter project for an RPG from people behind some classics.

I like the idea of a game that is funded by the people that will play it, and not a studio or publisher...

www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity

[spotlessvoid]

Allegedvixeo:

The human brain is not one indistinguishable organ, it is a complex system comprised of vastly differing components. They are generally classified into three sections, commonly referred to as the R Complex, the Mammalian Brain, and the Cortex. The survival mechanism you refer to originates in the R Complex and is further amplified by the chemical processes produced by the Mammalian center, known as emotions.
What makes the Cortex so different is that it has no such mechanism. It's function is strictly cognitive, and though it operates in conjunction with the survival instincts of our lower brain, it is not it's source.
As I'm sure you well understand evolutionary theory, it will suffice to say that the natural evolutionary process favors survival, as such a naturally occurring organic brain cannot come into existence without first developing all the requisite non cognitive functions required to keep the biological organism alive. Nevertheless, the Cortex shows that organic brain function need not be defined as survival oriented or inherently irrational. In fact, the Cortex operates in a manner much more similar to a desktop computer than say the limbic system.

It is erroneous to assign chemical processes developed out of evolutionary necessity as intrinsically organic and although these attributes cannot be ignored when comparing a human brain to an artificial one, they are not prerequisites when discussing the technical advantages of organic vs synthetic
For example, if one were to replace all but the gray matter with synthetic systems, such a system would be free of any involuntary neural activity negatively impacting accuracy in favor of efficacy. Yet the cognitive organ would remain wholly organic. Conversely, a synthetic cognitive system added on to an organic human lower brain would remain cognitively synthetic but would be susceptible to all the problems presented by the biological instinct for survival. It is the involuntary nature of these instincts that creates such a conflicting, tumultuous mental life for we humans. It seems that emotional response is what is typically associated with an organic mind, while synthetic minds are imagined as devoid of such processes. The implications this has on the fundamentally human trait of empathy is, in my opinion, at the source of the fear many have of artificial intelligence, however that is a complex topic best left for another day. Suffice to say that a unification of organic and synthetic means a fundamental change in at least one sides entire approach to life, effectively destroying what defines that sides very nature. To reach the harmony synthesis implies, synthetic would gain emotional processes, or organics would lose theirs.
The impact synthesis has on the races of the galaxy, and the morality of such a decision, cannot be properly debated without knowing significantly more details on how the transformative process potentially alters mental function.

[spotlessvoid]

Ducktroll:
I'm not a fan of isometric games anymore. Perspective projection makes it feel real. Isometric feels like a video game

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 14 septembre 2012 - 07:33 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

AllegedVixEo wrote...

I've played the game through a whole bunch of times now and ended it different ways, and after the extended cut and much thoughtful consideration eventually landed on the "Synthesis" ending, and I am happy with my "Derp." ending.  I have a completely unsubstantiated feeling that if they do put out another ME game (outside of the Shepard story of course) that it could take place many, many years in the future and everything will be synthesized anyway.  The catalyst did say, "Now that we know it can be accomplished, synthesis in inevitable" or something to that effect.

Considering the Galaxy of Mass Effect has gone through at least 1 billion years (The age of the Leviathan of Dis, a Reaper) without any case of natural or forced Synthesis beeing succesful (if we truly believe it is what the Catalyst is attempting) I dont think a few years is gonna do it.

In fact the entire premise of Synthesis in the way it is presented is utterly impossible if you ask me. Everything supposedly reaches the final evolution of life, aka no new evolution at all. What does this mean for trees and plants? Are they suddenly self aware? Metals in their base form? Does that mean Humans can suddenly survive underwater and in space (like Geth and other synthetic drones) without the need of any protective gear? Hell how are the Leviathans gonna react to this?

It just raises too many questions.

Also a galaxy which is Synthesized cannot be used as the base for a game since the Synthesis argued by the Catalyst means no more conflict. It would have to be an entirely new outside threat and unless they really pull out the Deus Ex Machina card with that new threat it will not last long as we have an entire galaxy supposedly at the Apex of Evolution ready to band together at a moments notice, including Billion year old Machines who have perfected their technology throughout that Billion years, not even mentioning Indoctrination. I say good luck Alien Invaders

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 14 septembre 2012 - 07:43 .

[AllegedVixEo]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Allegedvixeo:

The human brain is not one indistinguishable organ, it is a complex system comprised of vastly differing components. They are generally classified into three sections, commonly referred to as the R Complex, the Mammalian Brain, and the Cortex. The survival mechanism you refer to originates in the R Complex and is further amplified by the chemical processes produced by the Mammalian center, known as emotions.
What makes the Cortex so different is that it has no such mechanism. It's function is strictly cognitive, and though it operates in conjunction with the survival instincts of our lower brain, it is not it's source.
As I'm sure you well understand evolutionary theory, it will suffice to say that the natural evolutionary process favors survival, as such a naturally occurring organic brain cannot come into existence without first developing all the requisite non cognitive functions required to keep the biological organism alive. Nevertheless, the Cortex shows that organic brain function need not be defined as survival oriented or inherently irrational. In fact, the Cortex operates in a manner much more similar to a desktop computer than say the limbic system.

It is erroneous to assign chemical processes developed out of evolutionary necessity as intrinsically organic and although these attributes cannot be ignored when comparing a human brain to an artificial one, they are not prerequisites when discussing the technical advantages of organic vs synthetic
For example, if one were to replace all but the gray matter with synthetic systems, such a system would be free of any involuntary neural activity negatively impacting accuracy in favor of efficacy. Yet the cognitive organ would remain wholly organic. Conversely, a synthetic cognitive system added on to an organic human lower brain would remain cognitively synthetic but would be susceptible to all the problems presented by the biological instinct for survival. It is the involuntary nature of these instincts that creates such a conflicting, tumultuous mental life for we humans. It seems that emotional response is what is typically associated with an organic mind, while synthetic minds are imagined as devoid of such processes. The implications this has on the fundamentally human trait of empathy is, in my opinion, at the source of the fear many have of artificial intelligence, however that is a complex topic best left for another day. Suffice to say that a unification of organic and synthetic means a fundamental change in at least one sides entire approach to life, effectively destroying what defines that sides very nature. To reach the harmony synthesis implies, synthetic would gain emotional processes, or organics would lose theirs.
The impact synthesis has on the races of the galaxy, and the morality of such a decision, cannot be properly debated without knowing significantly more details on how the transformative process potentially alters mental function.

You're right.  But there were only 3 choices, and the other two brought genocide or mind control.  My Shepard did something very organic, and took a literally leap of faith and it worked out for the best