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[Raistlin Majare 1992]

AllegedVixEo wrote...

You're right.  But there were only 3 choices, and the other two brought genocide or mind control.  My Shepard did something very organic, and took a literally leap of faith and it worked out for the best

Yeah faith in an AI you have known for all of 5 minutes and who outright says he is the leader of your enemies, the enemies who so far have shown no sign of mercy or negotiation (except to trick their enemies to go inside them and become indoctrinated). It is also the enermy whose most deadly weapon is a mind control that alters the person without the person ever realizing it.

Yeah sorry if i dont really find that all that trustworthy.

[Humakt83]

Have anyone else connected parallels between these two cases?

1. Shepard and his crew are almost absurdly slow to realize that the mining colony in Leviathan DLC was indoctrinated.

2. Many Mass Effect 3 players are absurdly slow to realize that Shepard is being indoctrinated.

Modifié par Humakt83, 14 septembre 2012 - 07:50 .

[AllegedVixEo]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

AllegedVixEo wrote...

I've played the game through a whole bunch of times now and ended it different ways, and after the extended cut and much thoughtful consideration eventually landed on the "Synthesis" ending, and I am happy with my "Derp." ending.  I have a completely unsubstantiated feeling that if they do put out another ME game (outside of the Shepard story of course) that it could take place many, many years in the future and everything will be synthesized anyway.  The catalyst did say, "Now that we know it can be accomplished, synthesis in inevitable" or something to that effect.

It just raises too many questions.

Also a galaxy which is Synthesized cannot be used as the base for a game since the Synthesis argued by the Catalyst means no more conflict. It would have to be an entirely new outside threat and unless they really pull out the Deus Ex Machina card with that new threat it will not last long as we have an entire galaxy supposedly at the Apex of Evolution ready to band together at a moments notice, including Billion year old Machines who have perfected their technology throughout that Billion years, not even mentioning Indoctrination. I say good luck Alien Invaders

All good points.  I think it's possible though.  I could see it taking place at what would be the end of the next cycle (if the cycle still existed) say, 50,000 years in the future.  There would be no more conflict between organics and synthetics but that doesn't mean that someone wouldn't try to turn on everyone.  Like say, off the top of my head, everyones all happy and synthesized and in perfect harmony and someone unleashes a virus or something to gain control of the entire population.  There is no more conflict between organics and synthetics, but there does that mean there are no more bad eggs vying for power?  I don't know.  But your right.  The antagonist would have to do something incredibly invasive in order to not be immediately stomped by the large group of synthesized defenders.  I think there is something that could be done here though that might be really interesting.  I guess, we'll have just have to wait and see if the writer's ever do decide to breathe new life into the ME series.

[spotlessvoid]

Also, the whole we now know synthesis is possible shows the starchild isn't that bright. Some organics invented the crucible during the chaos of a Reaper Harvest, but starchild doesn't knowsanything about it until it's shoved up it's ass. Then, then he all of a sudden knows what it is and that some organics invention will work, no problems. Yeeeaaahhh

[AllegedVixEo]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

AllegedVixEo wrote...

You're right.  But there were only 3 choices, and the other two brought genocide or mind control.  My Shepard did something very organic, and took a literally leap of faith and it worked out for the best

Yeah faith in an AI you have known for all of 5 minutes and who outright says he is the leader of your enemies, the enemies who so far have shown no sign of mercy or negotiation (except to trick their enemies to go inside them and become indoctrinated). It is also the enermy whose most deadly weapon is a mind control that alters the person without the person ever realizing it.

Yeah sorry if i dont really find that all that trustworthy.

Like I mentioned before, the Leviathan DLC plays into the ending and gives me renewed confidence in the Catalyst as a trusth sayer.  The Leviathan has no reason to lie when it's very existence could also be at stake, yet the Leviathan confirms the story told by the Catalyst and shines more light on the evolution of the Reapers.  If you believe the Leviathan, you go into the room with the Catalyst already armed with the knowledge that the Catalyst is the "solution" to the Reapers.  I didn't have any reason to doubt that what Leviathan said was true.  That's why I chose to synthesize, up until that point I had always chosen destroy, but I feel much more satisfied with my ending now and I feel like the pieces come together better with all the DLC.

[AllegedVixEo]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


Yeah faith in an AI you have known for all of 5 minutes and who outright says he is the leader of your enemies, the enemies who so far have shown no sign of mercy or negotiation (except to trick their enemies to go inside them and become indoctrinated).

The catalyst says he is the "solution" to the Reapers, not the "leader"

[Humakt83]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Also, the whole we now know synthesis is possible shows the starchild isn't that bright. Some organics invented the crucible during the chaos of a Reaper Harvest, but starchild doesn't knowsanything about it until it's shoved up it's ass. Then, then he all of a sudden knows what it is and that some organics invention will work, no problems. Yeeeaaahhh

You give way too little credit to this "child". Being behind child is a masterful manipulator.

[AllegedVixEo]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Also, the whole we now know synthesis is possible shows the starchild isn't that bright. Some organics invented the crucible during the chaos of a Reaper Harvest, but starchild doesn't knowsanything about it until it's shoved up it's ass. Then, then he all of a sudden knows what it is and that some organics invention will work, no problems. Yeeeaaahhh

He isn't activated until it's shoved up his ass.

[spotlessvoid]

Then how does he "control" the Reapers?

Yes, Humakt83 I've heard of IT =)
I'm trying to explain why synthesis is crazy nonsense from a literal view

[spotlessvoid]

Starchild murders EVERYTHING! Organic, synthetic, Leviathan...he doesn't discriminate in his murderous rampage. Yet, he is trustworthy? He gives you almost no time to decide, and very few details on what will happen. Then if you refuse, he doesn't even try to explain why Shep should reconsider his trustworthy options, he just says f it everyone dies again

[spotlessvoid]

AllegedVixEo wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


Yeah faith in an AI you have known for all of 5 minutes and who outright says he is the leader of your enemies, the enemies who so far have shown no sign of mercy or negotiation (except to trick their enemies to go inside them and become indoctrinated).

The catalyst says he is the "solution" to the Reapers, not the "leader"

Nah he said he created them and that they are his solution to "the chaos"

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

AllegedVixEo wrote...

Like I mentioned before, the Leviathan DLC plays into the ending and gives me renewed confidence in the Catalyst as a trusth sayer.  The Leviathan has no reason to lie when it's very existence could also be at stake, yet the Leviathan confirms the story told by the Catalyst and shines more light on the evolution of the Reapers.  If you believe the Leviathan, you go into the room with the Catalyst already armed with the knowledge that the Catalyst is the "solution" to the Reapers.  I didn't have any reason to doubt that what Leviathan said was true.  That's why I chose to synthesize, up until that point I had always chosen destroy, but I feel much more satisfied with my ending now and I feel like the pieces come together better with all the DLC.

And here we disagree.

Leviathan only confirms the existence of an AI dedicated to the preservation of Organic life and that that AI created the first Reapers.

But that AI is never confirmed as beeing:

1: The Catalyst, in fact, the mere fact that the Leviathan says it does not know what the Crucible does (and by extension what the catalyst is) means two thinsg for our "Catalyst" and the Crucible. Either some race build the Crucible and somehow made it work with an AI they did not know exist or the Crucible is a Reaper contraption right from the start.

2: On the Citadel, it is actually never given a specific place.

3: Even in control of the Reapers. It says it directs them, Leviathan never says the AI is in control like the Catalyst says it is.

4: attempting to create Synthesis. Its goal is the preservation of all life, but how it will do this (beyond Reapers) is never stated by Leviathan.

Also are we really without any explanation given supposed to believe Shepard is this solution? Hell even the Catalyst dosent seem to know this until Shepard stands before it. What did it perform a super fast deep going biology scan and realized "whoops, our greatest enemy is actually the solution needed, who would have thought?"

Also are you gonna completely ignore the obvious connections between Leviathans mind control scene and the Catalyst scene. Shepard on his knees as a "figure drawn from his memories" approaches him. Also fun fact the only two other times Shepard is on his knees is:

A: During Overlord when the AI there hacks his implants, he falls down for a second.
B: When Object Rho from Arrival hits him with a pulse. This is the same Object harbinger speaks through saying: "Struggle as you will Shepard, your mind will be ours."

Four times is shepard on his knees like that, two of which are confirmed cases of control and the last is from an artifact which Indoctrinated an entire base. Is that just a coincidence?

[TheWill]

i think one of the most important questions.. is .. why is shepard an anomaly? in what way...

being able to resist indoctrination...? im sure the reapers would be very worried if organics developed a resistance to it over time...

maybe because he was able to unite a galaxy?

because he died.. but now hes alive?

I think its the single most important question about shepard. because the answer given would give light to so many questions we have... "why is Shepard an ANOMALY?"

[spotlessvoid]

I think Shepard is more of a rarity than an anomaly. Over countless cycles, I doubt Shepard was the first of his kind. Heck, he he's so much outside help that he's more leader than superhero. I'm sure Shepard isn't the first bad ass paragon to be born in all those cycles. And that doesn't even take into account renegade Shep. What the heck could being reanimated do? He still can be controlled by Leviathan and an indoctrinated TIM..so I doubt he is indoctrination resistant

[SubAstris]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Starchild murders EVERYTHING! Organic, synthetic, Leviathan...he doesn't discriminate in his murderous rampage. Yet, he is trustworthy? He gives you almost no time to decide, and very few details on what will happen. Then if you refuse, he doesn't even try to explain why Shep should reconsider his trustworthy options, he just says f it everyone dies again

He does discriminate to a certain extent otherwise humans wouldn't exist. So on those grounds, he is probably telling the truth about only killing the most advanced races but leaving everyone else. Admittedly I think they made a mistake in the original cut by having very little dialogue between the Catalyst and Shep, but this has been rectified largely in the EC.

What is the Catalyst meant to do if you refuse? If you honestly believe that he wants you to choose something other than "destroy", why doesn't he want Shep to reconsider him/her choosing that option? Probably because he knows Shepard has made up his mind and nothing can be done about that.

[Lokanaiya]

AllegedVixEo, this is a wall of text that I posted a few days after Leviathan was released, and it outlines why the Leviathans are most likely lying about the Intelligence. Really, it's either that or they make Conrad Verner look smart. Why they would lie, I don't know, but it's hard to think of any other explanation (also, if fellow ITers could offer their opinion on this, it would be nice. I didn't get much of a response last time):

They made an intelligence to solve the problem of their thrall races making AIs and destroying themselves, and the intelligence ended up killing all the Leviathans... And there are so many things in that sentence that don't make sense it's not even funny.

For one, why did it have to be an AI? Couldn't a VI still do all the calculations just as well and then tell the Leviathans about its predictions and what it thought would be the best solution. The Leviathans could go over the plan or make one themselves with the data collected and make sure that it didn't interfere with any of their personal plans. Why did their data collector, calculator, and possible problem solver have to have self-awareness? This seems to indicate the Leviathans were very often out of the picture for whatever reason.

Second, why did they need anything special to stop their servant races from making AIs at all? It would be much easier for them to just fly to homes of younger races and announce that whoever makes AIs will get a personal visit and/or will get their mind crushed. Either do it as the younger races were conquered or show up randomly every couple of hundred years and demonstrate their power. Or just keep a close eye on the younger races and completely obliterate areas that get even slightly disobedient or start building AIs. Hey, even if synthetics weren't a problem, this would still be a good idea. Overall, this seems to indicate that the Leviathans didn't pay close attention to the younger races and weren't in the picture very often.

Third... AI shackles. Seriously. Those two words could have apparently saved the entire galactic empire of the Leviathans. If synthetics are such a big threat to your thrall races, why did it never occur to you to somehow limit the power of this AI? Did it never occur to you that your super intelligent and powerful AI might turn on you, like what (apparently) happened with their thrall races. While there is no doubt the Leviathans were/are incredibly arrogant, you'd think that with such long lifespans they'd realize that if something can happen, it probably will. And even if they completely believed that such a thing would never happen to them because they're too powerful/advanced/whatever, would they really bet everything on that? I honestly can't think of an excuse for this one besides stupidity.

The first two can be explained by hibernation for long periods of time, but not the third. So, either the Leviathans are extremely stupid or they're lying through their teeth and are about as trustworthy as Starbrat.

[Lokanaiya]

Oh, and point being, they're not exactly a trustworthy source. Forgot to put that in the post.

[AllegedVixEo]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

And here we disagree.

Leviathan only confirms the existence of an AI dedicated to the preservation of Organic life and that that AI created the first Reapers.

But that AI is never confirmed as beeing:

1: The Catalyst, in fact, the mere fact that the Leviathan says it does not know what the Crucible does (and by extension what the catalyst is) means two thinsg for our "Catalyst" and the Crucible. Either some race build the Crucible and somehow made it work with an AI they did not know exist or the Crucible is a Reaper contraption right from the start.

2: On the Citadel, it is actually never given a specific place.

3: Even in control of the Reapers. It says it directs them, Leviathan never says the AI is in control like the Catalyst says it is.

4: attempting to create Synthesis. Its goal is the preservation of all life, but how it will do this (beyond Reapers) is never stated by Leviathan.

Also are we really without any explanation given supposed to believe Shepard is this solution? Hell even the Catalyst dosent seem to know this until Shepard stands before it. What did it perform a super fast deep going biology scan and realized "whoops, our greatest enemy is actually the solution needed, who would have thought?"

Also are you gonna completely ignore the obvious connections between Leviathans mind control scene and the Catalyst scene. Shepard on his knees as a "figure drawn from his memories" approaches him. Also fun fact the only two other times Shepard is on his knees is:

A: During Overlord when the AI there hacks his implants, he falls down for a second.
B: When Object Rho from Arrival hits him with a pulse. This is the same Object harbinger speaks through saying: "Struggle as you will Shepard, your mind will be ours."

Four times is shepard on his knees like that, two of which are confirmed cases of control and the last is from an artifact which Indoctrinated an entire base. Is that just a coincidence?

The Leviathan doesn't lay everything out, but IMO it gives you enough information that it is confirming the existence of an 1) AI created to preserve organic life 2) That there is, in fact, a phenomena called "the harvest" as the Catalyst later states.  This gives credibility to the existence of the catalyst and what it is saying in the end.  It is logical to me that you would go into the room with Catalyst with a better understanding of what it is, and what it's purpose is after speaking with Leviathan.  At least enough to deduce which decision to make in a hail mary pass to save the universe.

I play the ending in the context that what happens in the Extended cut is what really is supposed to happen in the game.  If you believe that, then Shepard breaking out of indoctrination by choosing to "destroy" doesn't make sense.  At least, to me.  I haven't seen the explanation of that from any indoctrination theorists, so I don't know if the people who believe indoctrination just ignore the Extended cut, or what.  (Perhaps, that is somewhere in the hundreds of pages of this thread, and I haven't read it).  Personally, in any one person's individual game, they can believe whatever they choose to believe abput the ending.  I am not here to tear apart the Indoctrination Theory, just to explain why I think it's toast.

I think Leviathan gives Shepard more than enough information about the Catalyst and the harvest, to make a desperate, dramatic choice at the end of the game in a play to save the universe...and the only way to truly preserve both organic and synthetic life, as well as the free will of synthetics is to choose synthesis.  I agree that the moral implications are that Shepard is sort of "playing God" in not allowing anyone the choice as to whether or not they SHOULD be synthesized.  It's not an easy choice to make, but Shepard has had to do a little "playing God" before in Arrival, and she did it out of necessity so it isn't totally out of character to think she would make that leap when the decision is dire, and all three options are morally ambiguous.  I believe the choices at the end represent a last ditch effort to save the universe, and the synthesis outcome has the best way of wrapping up the game, taken at face value.  

[Restrider]

Well, who knows if the Leviathans were a homogenous faction?
Maybe some rogue faction created the AI?
And the point with the hibernation:
- maybe that's the reason why they created an AI in the first place, since they were not around all the time

In any case, their logic seems to be flawed.
The problem: Thrall organics create synthetics and are obliterated.
The solution: Master organics create synthetic/AI to ensure that thrall organics do not create synthetics... and because of that the master organics get obliterated by the AI they created.
*Facepalm*

[AllegedVixEo]

As far as the Leviathans mind control powers are concerned, I think it's pretty clear in the DLC that Leviathan messes with Shepard's head. At the very least, he gets all up in there to have that 20 minute conversation at the end of the DLC, but that doesn't mean that Shepard is indoctrinated by it. Leviathan's species has more than enough power to get in everyone's head but has chosen not to to preserve it's existence in the shadows. Also, Leviathan states that the Reapers perfected indoctrination, as we know it in the ME universe. Leviathan has the ability to get in people's head and exert some control, but we do not know to what extent as it says the Reapers used this power to perfect "indoctrination"

[Restrider]

The IT is still valid even with EC.
The slides provide some closure if taken at face value, but consider this:
If BW intentioned something like IT, do you really think they would come up with some nice slides for Destroy and in all other endings you would see kind of a "Critical Mission Failure"? This would invalidate Synthesis and Control and people would just reload and choose Destroy. It is comparable to Refuse. Since everyone in our cycle dies only very few players choose it.

Furthermore the slides show what Shepard imagines would/could happen after his choice. This is supported by the fact that the breathe scene takes place after the slide show (ie it is not chronological or maybe not even real).

To sum it up: With IT in EC, Shepard and the player are indoctrinated successfully, if they do not choose Destroy and thus the indoctrination of the player goes on, even if Shepard is dead.

I am not that adept with formulations, so I can only highly recommend to read the following thread:
http://social.biowar.../index/13419372

[AllegedVixEo]

spotlessvoid wrote...

AllegedVixEo wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


Yeah faith in an AI you have known for all of 5 minutes and who outright says he is the leader of your enemies, the enemies who so far have shown no sign of mercy or negotiation (except to trick their enemies to go inside them and become indoctrinated).

The catalyst says he is the "solution" to the Reapers, not the "leader"

Nah he said he created them and that they are his solution to "the chaos"

Yes.   This is absolutely correct.  My mistake, but also it doesn't change my original point as to why I think it's not an indoctrination thing.

[Eryri]

Lokanaiya wrote...

They made an intelligence to solve the problem of their thrall races making AIs and destroying themselves, and the intelligence ended up killing all the Leviathans... And there are so many things in that sentence that don't make sense it's not even funny.

For one, why did it have to be an AI? Couldn't a VI still do all the calculations just as well and then tell the Leviathans about its predictions and what it thought would be the best solution. The Leviathans could go over the plan or make one themselves with the data collected and make sure that it didn't interfere with any of their personal plans. Why did their data collector, calculator, and possible problem solver have to have self-awareness? This seems to indicate the Leviathans were very often out of the picture for whatever reason.

I agree. The Leviathans would seem to be prime candidates for Darwin awards after that genius move. 

But to try to give them (and the writers) a bit more credit for a minute, Leviathan never states that the "intelligence" they created is a traditional silicon-chips synthetic AI. (Please corect me if I'm wrong here, I've only watched clips on youtube).

Maybe the Leviathans genetically engineered an organic computer, some sort of big brain in a jar? Or maybe they just grabbed a few spare thralls and wired them up into a network? 

They would be much more confident that they would be able to keep an organic-based intelligence under their control, as that's something that they were masters at.

spotlessvoid wrote...

I think Shepard is more of a rarity than an anomaly. Over countless cycles, I doubt Shepard was the first of his kind. Heck, he he's so much outside help that he's more leader than superhero. I'm sure Shepard isn't the first bad ass paragon to be born in all those cycles. And that doesn't even take into account renegade Shep. What the heck could being reanimated do? He still can be controlled by Leviathan and an indoctrinated TIM..so I doubt he is indoctrination resistant 

Shepard did survive contact with the Prothean beacon, which according to Liara should have killed him. Maybe he's partially resistant, and the Leviathans ans the Reapers are both interested in him to use as a weapon against each other? Maybe the Reapers want to make a reaper using Shepard's DNA that can't be disabled by the Leviathan's spheres?

Modifié par Eryri, 14 septembre 2012 - 09:54 .

[AllegedVixEo]

Restrider wrote...

The IT is still valid even with EC.
The slides provide some closure if taken at face value, but consider this:
If BW intentioned something like IT, do you really think they would come up with some nice slides for Destroy and in all other endings you would see kind of a "Critical Mission Failure"? This would invalidate Synthesis and Control and people would just reload and choose Destroy. It is comparable to Refuse. Since everyone in our cycle dies only very few players choose it.

Furthermore the slides show what Shepard imagines would/could happen after his choice. This is supported by the fact that the breathe scene takes place after the slide show (ie it is not chronological or maybe not even real).

To sum it up: With IT in EC, Shepard and the player are indoctrinated successfully, if they do not choose Destroy and thus the indoctrination of the player goes on, even if Shepard is dead.

I am not that adept with formulations, so I can only highly recommend to read the following thread:
http://social.biowar.../index/13419372

Thanks for explaining.  I hadn't thought that through as in depth.  I can see how that would allow indoctrination theory to exist even in conjunction with EC, but do you really think it is the intent of Bioware to indoctrinate the players?  Or do you think its more likely that the ending allows enough ambiguity for the players individual imagination to impose whatever it wants on the fate of the game's characters?  Like I said, I take it at face value that the EC ending is what Bioware intended for the game.

[Restrider]

AllegedVixEo wrote...

Restrider wrote...

The IT is still valid even with EC.
The slides provide some closure if taken at face value, but consider this:
If BW intentioned something like IT, do you really think they would come up with some nice slides for Destroy and in all other endings you would see kind of a "Critical Mission Failure"? This would invalidate Synthesis and Control and people would just reload and choose Destroy. It is comparable to Refuse. Since everyone in our cycle dies only very few players choose it.

Furthermore the slides show what Shepard imagines would/could happen after his choice. This is supported by the fact that the breathe scene takes place after the slide show (ie it is not chronological or maybe not even real).

To sum it up: With IT in EC, Shepard and the player are indoctrinated successfully, if they do not choose Destroy and thus the indoctrination of the player goes on, even if Shepard is dead.

I am not that adept with formulations, so I can only highly recommend to read the following thread:
http://social.biowar.../index/13419372

Thanks for explaining.  I hadn't thought that through as in depth.  I can see how that would allow indoctrination theory to exist even in conjunction with EC, but do you really think it is the intent of Bioware to indoctrinate the players?  Or do you think its more likely that the ending allows enough ambiguity for the players individual imagination to impose whatever it wants on the fate of the game's characters?  Like I said, I take it at face value that the EC ending is what Bioware intended for the game.

I have mixed feelings about this. The EC obviously was a thing that was not planned and was timbered together on very short notice (few dialogue options more, a few cutscenes and slides).
Maybe the following thing happened (mere speculation):
BW thought that the original endings were obviously that bizarre that they should not be taken literally (I think this was even stated by some official BW dude). Then the fan outrage happened and BW tried to appease them with the EC that should provide closure for the literal POV (as it kind of does). Yet, there are enough inconsistencies that remain in the EC such as the whole bizarro run after the beam hit. Then there are Harbinger's patience during the Normandy pick-up and Major Coats' visit on the Citadel etc. that can be considered as new evidence. So now BW has his ambigous ending with a lot of speculations. 
I don't even think that IT dream was their intention, it could also be WKN or Puzzle if you ask me, but the breathe scene indicates for me that the reaper war is not really over OR that something happened during the time Shepard was knocked out. In any case, it should not be taken literally.

Modifié par Restrider, 14 septembre 2012 - 10:04 .