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[spotlessvoid]

SubAstris wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Starchild murders EVERYTHING! Organic, synthetic, Leviathan...he doesn't discriminate in his murderous rampage. Yet, he is trustworthy? He gives you almost no time to decide, and very few details on what will happen. Then if you refuse, he doesn't even try to explain why Shep should reconsider his trustworthy options, he just says f it everyone dies again

He does discriminate to a certain extent otherwise humans wouldn't exist. So on those grounds, he is probably telling the truth about only killing the most advanced races but leaving everyone else. Admittedly I think they made a mistake in the original cut by having very little dialogue between the Catalyst and Shep, but this has been rectified largely in the EC.

What is the Catalyst meant to do if you refuse? If you honestly believe that he wants you to choose something other than "destroy", why doesn't he want Shep to reconsider him/her choosing that option? Probably because he knows Shepard has made up his mind and nothing can be done about that.

What Im saying is how he is enemy to everyone. Instead of saying so be it in Harbingers voice, since he thinks the crucible is so swell now, he could elaborate on the consequence of refuse or call a cease fire. He acts like synthesis is so awesome yet doesnt seem all that hellbent on acvomplishing it. If Shep is an anomaly, who's to say another cycle gets the chance to choose for a long long time

[SubAstris]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

AllegedVixEo wrote...

Like I mentioned before, the Leviathan DLC plays into the ending and gives me renewed confidence in the Catalyst as a trusth sayer.  The Leviathan has no reason to lie when it's very existence could also be at stake, yet the Leviathan confirms the story told by the Catalyst and shines more light on the evolution of the Reapers.  If you believe the Leviathan, you go into the room with the Catalyst already armed with the knowledge that the Catalyst is the "solution" to the Reapers.  I didn't have any reason to doubt that what Leviathan said was true.  That's why I chose to synthesize, up until that point I had always chosen destroy, but I feel much more satisfied with my ending now and I feel like the pieces come together better with all the DLC.

And here we disagree.

Leviathan only confirms the existence of an AI dedicated to the preservation of Organic life and that that AI created the first Reapers.

But that AI is never confirmed as beeing:

1: The Catalyst, in fact, the mere fact that the Leviathan says it does not know what the Crucible does (and by extension what the catalyst is) means two thinsg for our "Catalyst" and the Crucible. Either some race build the Crucible and somehow made it work with an AI they did not know exist or the Crucible is a Reaper contraption right from the start.

2: On the Citadel, it is actually never given a specific place.

3: Even in control of the Reapers. It says it directs them, Leviathan never says the AI is in control like the Catalyst says it is.

4: attempting to create Synthesis. Its goal is the preservation of all life, but how it will do this (beyond Reapers) is never stated by Leviathan.

Also are we really without any explanation given supposed to believe Shepard is this solution? Hell even the Catalyst dosent seem to know this until Shepard stands before it. What did it perform a super fast deep going biology scan and realized "whoops, our greatest enemy is actually the solution needed, who would have thought?"

I think it would be useful in this instance to show some of the similarities between the Intelligence "Leviathan" describes and the Catalyst we see at the end of the game.

1) Both AIs designed to preserve advanced life
2) Created the first Reaper
3) In control of the Reapers (although you make take issue with the term "control", direct implies a degree of control over another)

The fact that Leviathan doesn't know about the Crucible is hardly surprising, esp. because it would ruin the excitement of finding out at the last minute what the Crucible actually does.

The similarities are striking and could not possibly refer to any other being in the galaxy.  The logical deduction is that the Catalyst is real and at least has the characteristics as explained via Levi. The only real counter-argument against this that I have observed is that Harbinger (acting as the Catalyst) used Shep's memories from the argument with Leviathan to construct his false reality at the end.

[spotlessvoid]

"Prothean"

It's a Prothean beacon. It doesn't indoctrinate.

[Restrider]

SubAstris wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

AllegedVixEo wrote...

Like I mentioned before, the Leviathan DLC plays into the ending and gives me renewed confidence in the Catalyst as a trusth sayer.  The Leviathan has no reason to lie when it's very existence could also be at stake, yet the Leviathan confirms the story told by the Catalyst and shines more light on the evolution of the Reapers.  If you believe the Leviathan, you go into the room with the Catalyst already armed with the knowledge that the Catalyst is the "solution" to the Reapers.  I didn't have any reason to doubt that what Leviathan said was true.  That's why I chose to synthesize, up until that point I had always chosen destroy, but I feel much more satisfied with my ending now and I feel like the pieces come together better with all the DLC.

And here we disagree.

Leviathan only confirms the existence of an AI dedicated to the preservation of Organic life and that that AI created the first Reapers.

But that AI is never confirmed as beeing:

1: The Catalyst, in fact, the mere fact that the Leviathan says it does not know what the Crucible does (and by extension what the catalyst is) means two thinsg for our "Catalyst" and the Crucible. Either some race build the Crucible and somehow made it work with an AI they did not know exist or the Crucible is a Reaper contraption right from the start.

2: On the Citadel, it is actually never given a specific place.

3: Even in control of the Reapers. It says it directs them, Leviathan never says the AI is in control like the Catalyst says it is.

4: attempting to create Synthesis. Its goal is the preservation of all life, but how it will do this (beyond Reapers) is never stated by Leviathan.

Also are we really without any explanation given supposed to believe Shepard is this solution? Hell even the Catalyst dosent seem to know this until Shepard stands before it. What did it perform a super fast deep going biology scan and realized "whoops, our greatest enemy is actually the solution needed, who would have thought?"

I think it would be useful in this instance to show some of the similarities between the Intelligence "Leviathan" describes and the Catalyst we see at the end of the game.

1) Both AIs designed to preserve advanced life
2) Created the first Reaper
3) In control of the Reapers (although you make take issue with the term "control", direct implies a degree of control over another)

The fact that Leviathan doesn't know about the Crucible is hardly surprising, esp. because it would ruin the excitement of finding out at the last minute what the Crucible actually does.

The similarities are striking and could not possibly refer to any other being in the galaxy.  The logical deduction is that the Catalyst is real and at least has the characteristics as explained via Levi. The only real counter-argument against this that I have observed is that Harbinger (acting as the Catalyst) used Shep's memories from the argument with Leviathan to construct his false reality at the end.

Exactly that! The shown AI and Levy AI are pretty sure the same. But is the AI on the Citadel only because it says so at the same time the Catalyst?

[spotlessvoid]

Ido think given the amount of content in Leviathan it wouldn't he hard to provide additional content for the end. There's anumber of options, but one I like is having the crucible overload while firing. It could damage the Reapers, or kill enough of them before overloading that the Reapers retreat to dark space. It could end on "how long before they come back"...."i don't know"

There's your ME4 lead in. EA would love that

Edit: The crucible is either used to power up features already in the citadel (a reaper/ai construction) which means choice o matic was already there and starchild already knows of it, meaning "it changed me"is a lie. Or the crucible was designed to have those options which means it was intentionally designed. This begs the question of how some organics figured that out while starchild and Leviathan never did. They also seem to know the LEAST about the crucible

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 14 septembre 2012 - 10:17 .

[SubAstris]

spotlessvoid wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Starchild murders EVERYTHING! Organic, synthetic, Leviathan...he doesn't discriminate in his murderous rampage. Yet, he is trustworthy? He gives you almost no time to decide, and very few details on what will happen. Then if you refuse, he doesn't even try to explain why Shep should reconsider his trustworthy options, he just says f it everyone dies again

He does discriminate to a certain extent otherwise humans wouldn't exist. So on those grounds, he is probably telling the truth about only killing the most advanced races but leaving everyone else. Admittedly I think they made a mistake in the original cut by having very little dialogue between the Catalyst and Shep, but this has been rectified largely in the EC.

What is the Catalyst meant to do if you refuse? If you honestly believe that he wants you to choose something other than "destroy", why doesn't he want Shep to reconsider him/her choosing that option? Probably because he knows Shepard has made up his mind and nothing can be done about that.

What Im saying is how he is enemy to everyone. Instead of saying so be it in Harbingers voice, since he thinks the crucible is so swell now, he could elaborate on the consequence of refuse or call a cease fire. He acts like synthesis is so awesome yet doesnt seem all that hellbent on acvomplishing it. If Shep is an anomaly, who's to say another cycle gets the chance to choose for a long long time

Well the Catalyst wouldn't know exactly how the war would play out so he couldn't say, "yeah you'll all die lulz" for "Refuse". It's pretty obvious what he means (actually doesn't Shepard bring up the Refuse option anyway?)

I think Shep is an anomaly to a certain extent, his skills as a leader and a motivater are almost unique, but I don't think he would have been able to use his abilities to the full potential, and so give this cycle a fighting chance in the war, without the efforts of the Protheans. It is then with Shepard's breakthroughs that the next cycle can capitalise on the last and use the Crucible (if they choose to)

[Lokanaiya]

Restrider wrote...

Well, who knows if the Leviathans were a homogenous faction?
Maybe some rogue faction created the AI?
And the point with the hibernation:
- maybe that's the reason why they created an AI in the first place, since they were not around all the time

If they were so advanced, then why wouldn't they have somehow timed their hibernations so that there were always a couple Leviathans awake?

In any case, their logic seems to be flawed.
The problem: Thrall organics create synthetics and are obliterated.
The
solution: Master organics create synthetic/AI to ensure that thrall
organics do not create synthetics... and because of that the master
organics get obliterated by the AI they created.
*Facepalm*

If they're telling the truth, yes, definitely. If not, maybe they can still be menancing in some way.

Eryri wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

They made an intelligence to solve the problem of their thrall races making AIs and destroying themselves, and the intelligence ended up killing all the Leviathans... And there are so many things in that sentence that don't make sense it's not even funny.

For one, why did it have to be an AI? Couldn't a VI still do all the calculations just as well and then tell the Leviathans about its predictions and what it thought would be the best solution. The Leviathans could go over the plan or make one themselves with the data collected and make sure that it didn't interfere with any of their personal plans. Why did their data collector, calculator, and possible problem solver have to have self-awareness? This seems to indicate the Leviathans were very often out of the picture for whatever reason.

I agree. The Leviathans would seem to be prime candidates for Darwin awards after that genius move. 

But to try to give them (and the writers) a bit more credit for a minute, Leviathan never states that the "intelligence" they created is a traditional silicon-chips synthetic AI. (Please corect me if I'm wrong here, I've only watched clips on youtube).

Maybe the Leviathans genetically engineered an organic computer, some sort of big brain in a jar? Or maybe they just grabbed a few spare thralls and wired them up into a network? 

They would be much more confident that they would be able to keep an organic-based intelligence under their control, as that's something that they were masters at.

That's a good idea! Never even occured to me. And you're right, that does sound more likely than our version of an AI. It also provides an answer for my points one and three, but if it's satisfactory for the second is iffy. I'd say we need more information before deciding one way or another.

[Eryri]

Going back to the conversation with Vendetta for a minute, he says something along the lines of "I will interface with the Catalyst and..." before he's interrupted by Kai Leng.

This implies that the Protheans who built him knew (or thought they knew) enough about the Catalyst to design a VI to interact with it.

Later on Cronos station, Vendetta (after probable tampering from TIM) states that the Catalyst is the Citadel. So far so good - the citadel is a big machine, it makes sense that a VI could interface and control it.

However in the end run, we meet Star brat, who claims that he is in fact the Catalyst. For one thing, it seems unlikely that a relatively primitive VI would be able to hack and over-ride the "collective conciousness" of the Reapers, and we never hear anything more about Vendetta's "interfacing" - which seems to be quietly dropped.

Secondly, from a story-telling stand point this seems like one twist too many. We already had a revelation that the Catalyst we were looking for the whole game was the giant space station right under our noses. Another revelation on top of that seems excessive.

This was one of the reasons I thought something was fishy. It just doesn't seem like the sort of thing someone would write unless they were trying to suggest that something was up. I was expecting Shepard to investigate the Star brat's claim, uncover the truth and call him a liar. Sadly that didn't happen - at least not yet.

Modifié par Eryri, 14 septembre 2012 - 10:42 .

[AllegedVixEo]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Starchild murders EVERYTHING! Organic, synthetic, Leviathan...he doesn't discriminate in his murderous rampage. Yet, he is trustworthy? He gives you almost no time to decide, and very few details on what will happen. Then if you refuse, he doesn't even try to explain why Shep should reconsider his trustworthy options, he just says f it everyone dies again

If you believe that the Catalyst is the "intelligence" or part of the "intelligence" that the Leviathan species created to preserve organic life, then there is an explanation for this.

The solution that the Catalyst determined was to preserve organic life by destroying highly evolved species before they created something that would wipe out everything.   And as a synthetic this is what they were created to do.("HULK! SMASH!)

Being an AI they have the ability to evolve in thought, and eventually realized that their creators were the evolved species that created something that could wipe out everything else resulting in more "HULK! SMASH!" of Leviathan species.  Thus, the Reapers are sort of a paradox, and they continue to HULK! SMASH! advanced species each harvest.  Leviathan even says they are still serving their purpose.  

As AI, they have the ability to evolve and learn, like EDI.  But as one of the other responders on this thread already explained, they really don't have the ability to feel empathy.  EDI had to choose to learn that by studying the responses of others around her and adapting to them.  The Reapers probably could have learned that through corrupting every other race around them in a synthetic/organic husk-like orgy and absorbing the knowledge of countless species - but they, like their creators, want to preserve organic life to retain control of thrall species.  So they never evolved to learn emotion, or empathy - hence the seemingly murderous lack of diplomacy.  I know none of this is helping my case any for trusting the Leviathan species, or the Catalyst.

However, the Leviathan species at least somewhat learned it's lesson, had gone into hiding and was no longer trying to take control of organic life.  They have no reason to lie to Shepard, and believe that partnering with Shepard is the only way to ensure their continued existence...Which is why they let go of Shepard's brain and decided to help.

I don't have much to say about the Catalyst, except what I've already said a bunch of times - I believe the Leviathan's tale, and I believe it lends credibility to the Catalyst by coroborating a few things we would otherwise have to take at face value from the Catalyst, alone.  I don't think the Catalyst is really "murderous" though, I think that's more of a human attribute that it is being assigned which implies hatred or psychosis.  Granted the Reapers are genocidal they only intend to do their job which is to wipe out advanced species and absorb the knowledge of that species.  Secondarily, they also exert control in the form of indoctrination.  An ability they likely evolved with the explicit purpose of perfecting the harvest advance species.  So I think the reason that Catalyst keeps going back to "door 1, door 2, or death for all" mentality is because that's what it is programmed to achieve. I don't think it is lying.  

[SubAstris]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Ido think given the amount of content in Leviathan it wouldn't he hard to provide additional content for the end. There's anumber of options, but one I like is having the crucible overload while firing. It could damage the Reapers, or kill enough of them before overloading that the Reapers retreat to dark space. It could end on "how long before they come back"...."i don't know"

There's your ME4 lead in. EA would love that

Edit: The crucible is either used to power up features already in the citadel (a reaper/ai construction) which means choice o matic was already there and starchild already knows of it, meaning "it changed me"is a lie. Or the crucible was designed to have those options which means it was intentionally designed. This begs the question of how some organics figured that out while starchild and Leviathan never did. They also seem to know the LEAST about the crucible

Maybe Catalyst was asleep the whole time

[spotlessvoid]

" Maybe Catalyst was asleep the whole time"
Problem solved

[AllegedVixEo]

SubAstris wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

AllegedVixEo wrote...

Like I mentioned before, the Leviathan DLC plays into the ending and gives me renewed confidence in the Catalyst as a trusth sayer.  The Leviathan has no reason to lie when it's very existence could also be at stake, yet the Leviathan confirms the story told by the Catalyst and shines more light on the evolution of the Reapers.  If you believe the Leviathan, you go into the room with the Catalyst already armed with the knowledge that the Catalyst is the "solution" to the Reapers.  I didn't have any reason to doubt that what Leviathan said was true.  That's why I chose to synthesize, up until that point I had always chosen destroy, but I feel much more satisfied with my ending now and I feel like the pieces come together better with all the DLC.

And here we disagree.

Leviathan only confirms the existence of an AI dedicated to the preservation of Organic life and that that AI created the first Reapers.

But that AI is never confirmed as beeing:

1: The Catalyst, in fact, the mere fact that the Leviathan says it does not know what the Crucible does (and by extension what the catalyst is) means two thinsg for our "Catalyst" and the Crucible. Either some race build the Crucible and somehow made it work with an AI they did not know exist or the Crucible is a Reaper contraption right from the start.

2: On the Citadel, it is actually never given a specific place.

3: Even in control of the Reapers. It says it directs them, Leviathan never says the AI is in control like the Catalyst says it is.

4: attempting to create Synthesis. Its goal is the preservation of all life, but how it will do this (beyond Reapers) is never stated by Leviathan.

Also are we really without any explanation given supposed to believe Shepard is this solution? Hell even the Catalyst dosent seem to know this until Shepard stands before it. What did it perform a super fast deep going biology scan and realized "whoops, our greatest enemy is actually the solution needed, who would have thought?"

I think it would be useful in this instance to show some of the similarities between the Intelligence "Leviathan" describes and the Catalyst we see at the end of the game.

1) Both AIs designed to preserve advanced life
2) Created the first Reaper
3) In control of the Reapers (although you make take issue with the term "control", direct implies a degree of control over another)

The fact that Leviathan doesn't know about the Crucible is hardly surprising, esp. because it would ruin the excitement of finding out at the last minute what the Crucible actually does.

The similarities are striking and could not possibly refer to any other being in the galaxy.  The logical deduction is that the Catalyst is real and at least has the characteristics as explained via Levi. The only real counter-argument against this that I have observed is that Harbinger (acting as the Catalyst) used Shep's memories from the argument with Leviathan to construct his false reality at the end.

Well put food for thought.  I guess it can be whatever you want it to be.  I just took it to be the AI from Leviathan due to the similarities.

[spotlessvoid]

If the catalyst isn't lying then it's retarded. Also, the catalyst is trying to smooth talk Shepard, even appearing as some ethereal little boy, unless you refuse. Then he puts some base in his voice. He also wasn't bright enough to figure out the crucible through all those cycles, yet he created the citadel and mass relays.

[Eryri]

spotlessvoid wrote...

"Prothean"

It's a Prothean beacon. It doesn't indoctrinate.

That's true. But Liara does state that it is evidence that Shepard has an extremely strong will. 

I think this counts for, rather than against indoctrination theory, as one of the major complaints from literalists is that "Indoctrination is irreversible", "the only cure is suicide" and so on.

If Shepard, or perhaps all of humanity thanks to our supposed "genetic variability" are evolving indoctrination resistance, it could justify Shepard breaking out of Harby's / Star brat's / Leviathan's grip (take your pick) and going on to a kick ass boss fight followed hopefully by a crew reunion and, for those who want them, blue babies.

Modifié par Eryri, 14 septembre 2012 - 10:40 .

[SubAstris]

spotlessvoid wrote...

" Maybe Catalyst was asleep the whole time"
Problem solved

We've cracked the ending. SUCCESS!

[N7 Assass1n]

What I have always wondered is, why is the Catalyst in the corporal form of a human male child? I mean, the Leviathans created the Intelligence, and since they were the first Apex Race in the galaxy (First to also be harvested), why would the intelligence be modeled to look like an organism (Human) that probably hasn't even developed into an organic being? Its been 20000 cycles, there is no way they could model it off Humans. Amongst the other glaring facts about the theory, nobody else has really taken into account the actual form of the "God Child". Just my 2 cents.

[spotlessvoid]

" I guess it can be whatever you want it to be."

Pay Bioware for me to write the story? The catalyst has become the point of everything in the literal endings. It is full of plot holes and stupidity. That is a terrible, no good, very bad ending that should be ridiculed til the end of days.

Man, watching the apocalypse unfold : "Casey Hudson"
Woman : "Lol"

[spotlessvoid]

SubAstris wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

" Maybe Catalyst was asleep the whole time"
Problem solved

We've cracked the ending. SUCCESS!

Go for drinks?

[AllegedVixEo]

N7 Assass1n wrote...

What I have always wondered is, why is the Catalyst in the corporal form of a human male child? I mean, the Leviathans created the Intelligence, and since they were the first Apex Race in the galaxy (First to also be harvested), why would the intelligence be modeled to look like an organism (Human) that probably hasn't even developed into an organic being? Its been 20000 cycles, there is no way they could model it off Humans. Amongst the other glaring facts about the theory, nobody else has really taken into account the actual form of the "God Child". Just my 2 cents.

I think that is simply because the Catalyst is appearing in the form of something that is projected from Shepard. Something that would be easy for her to take in.

[spotlessvoid]

N7 Assass1n wrote...

What I have always wondered is, why is the Catalyst in the corporal form of a human male child? I mean, the Leviathans created the Intelligence, and since they were the first Apex Race in the galaxy (First to also be harvested), why would the intelligence be modeled to look like an organism (Human) that probably hasn't even developed into an organic being? Its been 20000 cycles, there is no way they could model it off Humans. Amongst the other glaring facts about the theory, nobody else has really taken into account the actual form of the "God Child". Just my 2 cents.

One of the original IT clues. Starchild is digging through your head

[AllegedVixEo]

spotlessvoid wrote...

" I guess it can be whatever you want it to be."

Pay Bioware for me to write the story? The catalyst has become the point of everything in the literal endings. It is full of plot holes and stupidity. That is a terrible, no good, very bad ending that should be ridiculed til the end of days.

Man, watching the apocalypse unfold : "Casey Hudson"
Woman : "Lol"

Well, I only say that it can be "whatever you want it to be" because I personally don't think it's indoctrination.  If people want to believe that.. than sure, it's your game.  It's indoctrination.  But I think the ending Bioware intended is the ending at face value.  They made that pretty clear.

[Lokanaiya]

AllegedVixEo, did you miss my wall of text on the last page?

[N7 Assass1n]

spotlessvoid wrote...

N7 Assass1n wrote...

What I have always wondered is, why is the Catalyst in the corporal form of a human male child? I mean, the Leviathans created the Intelligence, and since they were the first Apex Race in the galaxy (First to also be harvested), why would the intelligence be modeled to look like an organism (Human) that probably hasn't even developed into an organic being? Its been 20000 cycles, there is no way they could model it off Humans. Amongst the other glaring facts about the theory, nobody else has really taken into account the actual form of the "God Child". Just my 2 cents.

One of the original IT clues. Starchild is digging through your head

Exactly. I never took anything he said to heart the first time I played the game. Mind you, I got ME3 before playing the other games and then quickly realizing that to get fully immersed into the Storyline of the game you need to play it from the beginning (Well I play on PS3, so I had to suffice with ME2 with Genesis). Even when I first played I knew the ending was just, weird... People in the forum seem to want to dismiss the theory (Well anyone not in support of this thread) because they have come to terms with the terrible writing/can't come to terms with the fact that IT may be true. The most common rebuttle is "Bad writing is to suffice for that evidence you suggest". ARE YOU Kidding? *Stops rant before head explodes*

[BansheeOwnage]

Hello?

[Eryri]

Lokanaiya wrote...

That's a good idea! Never even occured to me. And you're right, that does sound more likely than our version of an AI. It also provides an answer for my points one and three, but if it's satisfactory for the second is iffy. I'd say we need more information before deciding one way or another.

Thanks. Did you see the idea that Demersel was discussing earlier in the thread that indoctrination itself might be the "intelligence"? A sort of mind-virus that co-opts organic brains into its service. Quite a far-out idea but it appeals to me.