80611 réponses à ce sujet

[plfranke]

spotlessvoid wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

" Maybe Catalyst was asleep the whole time"
Problem solved

We've cracked the ending. SUCCESS!

Go for drinks?

There's this great bar in Rio...

[byne]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Hello?

Hello!

[spotlessvoid]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Hello?

Yes, hello. You're in the IT thread. Welcome

[SubAstris]

N7 Assass1n wrote...

What I have always wondered is, why is the Catalyst in the corporal form of a human male child? I mean, the Leviathans created the Intelligence, and since they were the first Apex Race in the galaxy (First to also be harvested), why would the intelligence be modeled to look like an organism (Human) that probably hasn't even developed into an organic being? Its been 20000 cycles, there is no way they could model it off Humans. Amongst the other glaring facts about the theory, nobody else has really taken into account the actual form of the "God Child". Just my 2 cents.

Well, I don't think the Catalyst was always in the form of a human. More likely, it can change its form depending on the circumstance.

There's a couple of ways you can go when interpretating how exactly the Catalyst knows about the child itself.

1) Catalyst enters Shepard's mind, picks out image of the kid (supports both literal and IT)
2) Catalyst, acting as the Reaper's collective consciousness, can see all the Reapers see. The Reapers see the kid, ergo the Catalyst knows about the kid.

Can't think of any more plausible reasons at the moment although I'm sure there are some more

[spotlessvoid]

plfranke wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

" Maybe Catalyst was asleep the whole time"
Problem solved

We've cracked the ending. SUCCESS!

Go for drinks?

There's this great bar in Rio...

Thete is an even better onr on Omega. Just gotta take care of a few minor things first

[BansheeOwnage]

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Hello?

Hello!

Feeling better?

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 14 septembre 2012 - 10:56 .

[Restrider]

Eryri wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

That's a good idea! Never even occured to me. And you're right, that does sound more likely than our version of an AI. It also provides an answer for my points one and three, but if it's satisfactory for the second is iffy. I'd say we need more information before deciding one way or another.

Thanks. Did you see the idea that Demersel was discussing earlier in the thread that indoctrination itself might be the "intelligence"? A sort of mind-virus that co-opts organic brains into its service. Quite a far-out idea but it appeals to me.

Another literature reference:
Has anyone read Snow Crash written by Neal Stephenson (quite exceptional novel)?
There you have the whole mind virus theme explained, though it is only loosely related to this topic...

N7 Assasi1n wrote...

Exactly. I never took anything he said to heart the first time I
played the game. Mind you, I got ME3 before playing the other games and
then quickly realizing that to get fully immersed into the Storyline of
the game you need to play it from the beginning (Well I play on PS3, so I
had to suffice with ME2 with Genesis). Even when I first played I knew
the ending was just, weird... People in the forum seem to want to
dismiss the theory (Well anyone not in support of this thread) because
they have come to terms with the terrible writing/can't come to terms
with the fact that IT may be true. The most common rebuttle is "Bad
writing is to suffice for that evidence you suggest". ARE YOU Kidding?
*Stops rant before head explodes*

+1 for the last sentence

[byne]

SubAstris wrote...

N7 Assass1n wrote...

What I have always wondered is, why is the Catalyst in the corporal form of a human male child? I mean, the Leviathans created the Intelligence, and since they were the first Apex Race in the galaxy (First to also be harvested), why would the intelligence be modeled to look like an organism (Human) that probably hasn't even developed into an organic being? Its been 20000 cycles, there is no way they could model it off Humans. Amongst the other glaring facts about the theory, nobody else has really taken into account the actual form of the "God Child". Just my 2 cents.

Well, I don't think the Catalyst was always in the form of a human. More likely, it can change its form depending on the circumstance.

There's a couple of ways you can go when interpretating how exactly the Catalyst knows about the child itself.

1) Catalyst enters Shepard's mind, picks out image of the kid (supports both literal and IT)
2) Catalyst, acting as the Reaper's collective consciousness, can see all the Reapers see. The Reapers see the kid, ergo the Catalyst knows about the kid.

Can't think of any more plausible reasons at the moment although I'm sure there are some more

I dont really buy the second one. Unless godchild knows Shep has been dreaming about the kid, taking his form is far too big of a gamble. The kind a cold calculating (not that godchild is actually either of these, though he claims to be) AI wouldnt make.

[BansheeOwnage]

spotlessvoid wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

" Maybe Catalyst was asleep the whole time"
Problem solved

We've cracked the ending. SUCCESS!

Go for drinks?

No matter how many times Sub or anyone else said he'll go for drinks with you after we're done, you'll just have to headcanon it.

[byne]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Hello?

Hello!

Feeling better?

Negative.

[spotlessvoid]

AllegedVixEo wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

" I guess it can be whatever you want it to be."

Pay Bioware for me to write the story? The catalyst has become the point of everything in the literal endings. It is full of plot holes and stupidity. That is a terrible, no good, very bad ending that should be ridiculed til the end of days.

Man, watching the apocalypse unfold : "Casey Hudsoin"
Woman : "Lol"

Well, I only say that it can be "whatever you want it to be" because I personally don't think it's indoctrination.  If people want to believe that.. than sure, it's your game.  It's indoctrination.  But I think the ending Bioware intended is the ending at face value.  They made that pretty clear.

I disagree, its not clear and if it is real then the endings destroy logic, narrative, and thematic tone in 5 minutes. I dint see how someone can defend it. I can unserstand not agreeing with IT like subastris, but not thinking they are any good or 

[plfranke]

SubAstris wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

AllegedVixEo wrote...

Like I mentioned before, the Leviathan DLC plays into the ending and gives me renewed confidence in the Catalyst as a trusth sayer.  The Leviathan has no reason to lie when it's very existence could also be at stake, yet the Leviathan confirms the story told by the Catalyst and shines more light on the evolution of the Reapers.  If you believe the Leviathan, you go into the room with the Catalyst already armed with the knowledge that the Catalyst is the "solution" to the Reapers.  I didn't have any reason to doubt that what Leviathan said was true.  That's why I chose to synthesize, up until that point I had always chosen destroy, but I feel much more satisfied with my ending now and I feel like the pieces come together better with all the DLC.

And here we disagree.

Leviathan only confirms the existence of an AI dedicated to the preservation of Organic life and that that AI created the first Reapers.

But that AI is never confirmed as beeing:

1: The Catalyst, in fact, the mere fact that the Leviathan says it does not know what the Crucible does (and by extension what the catalyst is) means two thinsg for our "Catalyst" and the Crucible. Either some race build the Crucible and somehow made it work with an AI they did not know exist or the Crucible is a Reaper contraption right from the start.

2: On the Citadel, it is actually never given a specific place.

3: Even in control of the Reapers. It says it directs them, Leviathan never says the AI is in control like the Catalyst says it is.

4: attempting to create Synthesis. Its goal is the preservation of all life, but how it will do this (beyond Reapers) is never stated by Leviathan.

Also are we really without any explanation given supposed to believe Shepard is this solution? Hell even the Catalyst dosent seem to know this until Shepard stands before it. What did it perform a super fast deep going biology scan and realized "whoops, our greatest enemy is actually the solution needed, who would have thought?"

I think it would be useful in this instance to show some of the similarities between the Intelligence "Leviathan" describes and the Catalyst we see at the end of the game.

1) Both AIs designed to preserve advanced life
2) Created the first Reaper
3) In control of the Reapers (although you make take issue with the term "control", direct implies a degree of control over another)

The fact that Leviathan doesn't know about the Crucible is hardly surprising, esp. because it would ruin the excitement of finding out at the last minute what the Crucible actually does.

The similarities are striking and could not possibly refer to any other being in the galaxy.  The logical deduction is that the Catalyst is real and at least has the characteristics as explained via Levi. The only real counter-argument against this that I have observed is that Harbinger (acting as the Catalyst) used Shep's memories from the argument with Leviathan to construct his false reality at the end.

Your first point Sub is a misconception. The Catalyst's purpose is not to preserve life, it is to find peace between organics and synthetics. This is what he says, himself. That is an entirely different purpose from what Leviathan clearly states the AI's is, preservation of life.

It also should be pointed out that if the cycle is constantly repeating itself, every cycle is always closing in on neutralizing the synthetic problem until the Reapers arrive. The Catalyst says that it's organics whose flawed logic don't let them realize they are a part of the problem they're trying to solve. However, it's true for him as well. He is probably the biggest part of the problem he's trying to solve.

[AllegedVixEo]

 

Lokanaiya wrote...

AllegedVixEo, this is a wall of text that I posted a few days after Leviathan was released, and it outlines why the Leviathans are most likely lying about the Intelligence. Really, it's either that or they make Conrad Verner look smart. Why they would lie, I don't know, but it's hard to think of any other explanation (also, if fellow ITers could offer their opinion on this, it would be nice. I didn't get much of a response last time):

They made an intelligence to solve the problem of their thrall races making AIs and destroying themselves, and the intelligence ended up killing all the Leviathans... And there are so many things in that sentence that don't make sense it's not even funny. 

For one, why did it have to be an AI? Couldn't a VI still do all the calculations just as well and then tell the Leviathans about its predictions and what it thought would be the best solution. The Leviathans could go over the plan or make one themselves with the data collected and make sure that it didn't interfere with any of their personal plans. Why did their data collector, calculator, and possible problem solver have to have self-awareness? This seems to indicate the Leviathans were very often out of the picture for whatever reason.

Second, why did they need anything special to stop their servant races from making AIs at all? It would be much easier for them to just fly to homes of younger races and announce that whoever makes AIs will get a personal visit and/or will get their mind crushed. Either do it as the younger races were conquered or show up randomly every couple of hundred years and demonstrate their power. Or just keep a close eye on the younger races and completely obliterate areas that get even slightly disobedient or start building AIs. Hey, even if synthetics weren't a problem, this would still be a good idea. Overall, this seems to indicate that the Leviathans didn't pay close attention to the younger races and weren't in the picture very often.

Third... AI shackles. Seriously. Those two words could have apparently saved the entire galactic empire of the Leviathans. If synthetics are such a big threat to your thrall races, why did it never occur to you to somehow limit the power of this AI? Did it never occur to you that your super intelligent and powerful AI might turn on you, like what (apparently) happened with their thrall races. While there is no doubt the Leviathans were/are incredibly arrogant, you'd think that with such long lifespans they'd realize that if something can happen, it probably will. And even if they completely believed that such a thing would never happen to them because they're too powerful/advanced/whatever, would they really bet everything on that? I honestly can't think of an excuse for this one besides stupidity. 

The first two can be explained by hibernation for long periods of time, but not the third. So, either the Leviathans are extremely stupid or they're lying through their teeth and are about as trustworthy as Starbrat.

 \\

Lokanaiya wrote...

AllegedVixEo, did you miss my wall of text on the last page?

No, honestly, I don't know how to answer most of it.  Except to most stories don't provide every answer to every question, there is so much history that was summed up in 30 minutes of DLC...but I don't think these questions are necessarily plot holes.

I think you answered your own question (and Bioware answered in the DLC) to say they were arrogant, and thought that they couldn't be stopped.  They had never encountered a species or an AI that they couldn't control and they made a fatal mistake.  These things happen, that's why the expression "hindsight is 20/20" exists.  I think Bioware expects you to believe that the arrogance of this species, the consistent ability to conquer everything they came across, made them weak and fallible.. It's not really a far stretch.

I think obliterating the younger races as they began to create AIs would be a little counter productive to the goals of the Levi species which is to preserve the younger species so they can serve as tribute, and be controlled.  We don't really know that they didn't try an intimidation method first, we weren't given that information, but the species is very old so it's possible that the first line of defense before creating "intelligence" was simply intimidation, and it didn't work.  We just don't know.  

As far as the shackles are concerned, I don't know.  Maybe it was their arrogance, or like you said, they weren't paying close attention, or someone else suggested hybernating, or maybe they were lazy.. There are many possibilities why they may want them unshackled.  Perhaps, that's the only way they can get them to do their jobs? The info just isn't there.  So we can't conclude one way or another. 

I don't think that any of this proves they are lying.. I just think it proves that we didn't get hundreds of thousands of years of history in a 20 minute DLC, but we got enough to digest and make the logical deduction that the Catalyst is the Levi AI, it was created to preserve organic life, the solution is "the harvest" and that  these things being coroborated by it's older, wiser parent species gives it some credibility.  That's good enough for me.

[BansheeOwnage]

byne wrote...

I dont really buy the second one. Unless godchild knows Shep has been dreaming about the kid, taking his form is far too big of a gamble. The kind a cold calculating (not that godchild is actually either of these, though he claims to be) AI wouldnt make.

I agree. There isn't really a reason to think Shepard would care about this kid more than say, the person who died on virmire. Or Thane, or Legion etc. If he chose to appear as that kid, like Byne said, it would have to know Shepard was dreaming about that kid (we don't even know if Shepard remembers the dreams). It's clear manipulation in IT or literal.

[byne]

plfranke wrote...

It also should be pointed out that if the cycle is constantly repeating itself, every cycle is always closing in on neutralizing the synthetic problem until the Reapers arrive. The Catalyst says that it's organics whose flawed logic don't let them realize they are a part of the problem they're trying to solve. However, it's true for him as well. He is probably the biggest part of the problem he's trying to solve.

Javik said at one point that there was peace with the synthetics of his time until the Reapers came and corrupted them.

There literally wasnt a problem until the Reapers created one.

[AllegedVixEo]

plfranke wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

AllegedVixEo wrote...

Like I mentioned before, the Leviathan DLC plays into the ending and gives me renewed confidence in the Catalyst as a trusth sayer.  The Leviathan has no reason to lie when it's very existence could also be at stake, yet the Leviathan confirms the story told by the Catalyst and shines more light on the evolution of the Reapers.  If you believe the Leviathan, you go into the room with the Catalyst already armed with the knowledge that the Catalyst is the "solution" to the Reapers.  I didn't have any reason to doubt that what Leviathan said was true.  That's why I chose to synthesize, up until that point I had always chosen destroy, but I feel much more satisfied with my ending now and I feel like the pieces come together better with all the DLC.

And here we disagree.

Leviathan only confirms the existence of an AI dedicated to the preservation of Organic life and that that AI created the first Reapers.

But that AI is never confirmed as beeing:

1: The Catalyst, in fact, the mere fact that the Leviathan says it does not know what the Crucible does (and by extension what the catalyst is) means two thinsg for our "Catalyst" and the Crucible. Either some race build the Crucible and somehow made it work with an AI they did not know exist or the Crucible is a Reaper contraption right from the start.

2: On the Citadel, it is actually never given a specific place.

3: Even in control of the Reapers. It says it directs them, Leviathan never says the AI is in control like the Catalyst says it is.

4: attempting to create Synthesis. Its goal is the preservation of all life, but how it will do this (beyond Reapers) is never stated by Leviathan.

Also are we really without any explanation given supposed to believe Shepard is this solution? Hell even the Catalyst dosent seem to know this until Shepard stands before it. What did it perform a super fast deep going biology scan and realized "whoops, our greatest enemy is actually the solution needed, who would have thought?"

I think it would be useful in this instance to show some of the similarities between the Intelligence "Leviathan" describes and the Catalyst we see at the end of the game.

1) Both AIs designed to preserve advanced life
2) Created the first Reaper
3) In control of the Reapers (although you make take issue with the term "control", direct implies a degree of control over another)

The fact that Leviathan doesn't know about the Crucible is hardly surprising, esp. because it would ruin the excitement of finding out at the last minute what the Crucible actually does.

The similarities are striking and could not possibly refer to any other being in the galaxy.  The logical deduction is that the Catalyst is real and at least has the characteristics as explained via Levi. The only real counter-argument against this that I have observed is that Harbinger (acting as the Catalyst) used Shep's memories from the argument with Leviathan to construct his false reality at the end.

Your first point Sub is a misconception. The Catalyst's purpose is not to preserve life, it is to find peace between organics and synthetics. This is what he says, himself. That is an entirely different purpose from what Leviathan clearly states the AI's is, preservation of life.

I think the goal of Levi was to preserve life, and the way to do this is peace between organics and synthetics.  Semantics.

[BansheeOwnage]

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Hello?

Hello!

Feeling better?

Negative.

  Get better ASAP!

[BansheeOwnage]

byne wrote...

plfranke wrote...

It also should be pointed out that if the cycle is constantly repeating itself, every cycle is always closing in on neutralizing the synthetic problem until the Reapers arrive. The Catalyst says that it's organics whose flawed logic don't let them realize they are a part of the problem they're trying to solve. However, it's true for him as well. He is probably the biggest part of the problem he's trying to solve.

Javik said at one point that there was peace with the synthetics of his time until the Reapers came and corrupted them.

There literally wasnt a problem until the Reapers created one.

LOL. Similar to the geth and quarians.

(I emphasized "similar" so literalists don't get angry over nothing. )

[spotlessvoid]

Leviathan doesn't want to preserve life for any benevolent reason. It actually says "tribute don't flow from dead races"
It only cares about remaining at it's apex status

[spotlessvoid]

We have warned you repeatedly about sticking things in your ears...

Jk, hope you get better soon

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 14 septembre 2012 - 11:06 .

[byne]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Leviathan doesn't want to preserve life for any benevolent reason. It actually says "tribute don't flow from dead races"
It only cares about remaining at it's apex status

Godchild was created to keep organics alive so tribute could continue flowing.

While it may be true that tribute doesnt flow from dead races, it also doesnt flow from giant robotic cuttlefish.

Godchild is not acting in accordance with its programming.

[plfranke]

AllegedVixEo wrote...

plfranke wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

AllegedVixEo wrote...

Like I mentioned before, the Leviathan DLC plays into the ending and gives me renewed confidence in the Catalyst as a trusth sayer.  The Leviathan has no reason to lie when it's very existence could also be at stake, yet the Leviathan confirms the story told by the Catalyst and shines more light on the evolution of the Reapers.  If you believe the Leviathan, you go into the room with the Catalyst already armed with the knowledge that the Catalyst is the "solution" to the Reapers.  I didn't have any reason to doubt that what Leviathan said was true.  That's why I chose to synthesize, up until that point I had always chosen destroy, but I feel much more satisfied with my ending now and I feel like the pieces come together better with all the DLC.

And here we disagree.

Leviathan only confirms the existence of an AI dedicated to the preservation of Organic life and that that AI created the first Reapers.

But that AI is never confirmed as beeing:

1: The Catalyst, in fact, the mere fact that the Leviathan says it does not know what the Crucible does (and by extension what the catalyst is) means two thinsg for our "Catalyst" and the Crucible. Either some race build the Crucible and somehow made it work with an AI they did not know exist or the Crucible is a Reaper contraption right from the start.

2: On the Citadel, it is actually never given a specific place.

3: Even in control of the Reapers. It says it directs them, Leviathan never says the AI is in control like the Catalyst says it is.

4: attempting to create Synthesis. Its goal is the preservation of all life, but how it will do this (beyond Reapers) is never stated by Leviathan.

Also are we really without any explanation given supposed to believe Shepard is this solution? Hell even the Catalyst dosent seem to know this until Shepard stands before it. What did it perform a super fast deep going biology scan and realized "whoops, our greatest enemy is actually the solution needed, who would have thought?"

I think it would be useful in this instance to show some of the similarities between the Intelligence "Leviathan" describes and the Catalyst we see at the end of the game.

1) Both AIs designed to preserve advanced life
2) Created the first Reaper
3) In control of the Reapers (although you make take issue with the term "control", direct implies a degree of control over another)

The fact that Leviathan doesn't know about the Crucible is hardly surprising, esp. because it would ruin the excitement of finding out at the last minute what the Crucible actually does.

The similarities are striking and could not possibly refer to any other being in the galaxy.  The logical deduction is that the Catalyst is real and at least has the characteristics as explained via Levi. The only real counter-argument against this that I have observed is that Harbinger (acting as the Catalyst) used Shep's memories from the argument with Leviathan to construct his false reality at the end.

Your first point Sub is a misconception. The Catalyst's purpose is not to preserve life, it is to find peace between organics and synthetics. This is what he says, himself. That is an entirely different purpose from what Leviathan clearly states the AI's is, preservation of life.

I think the goal of Levi was to preserve life, and the way to do this is peace between organics and synthetics.  Semantics.

lol you're just making stuff up to fit your views. Leviathan's exact words are "The Intelligence has one goal, preservation of life." Yet, in the Catalyst's chamber that phrase isn't used once. You can't then say, eh that was Leviathan's goal. He said that's the Catalyst's goal.

[demersel]

Hello. What's new?

[AllegedVixEo]

byne wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Leviathan doesn't want to preserve life for any benevolent reason. It actually says "tribute don't flow from dead races"
It only cares about remaining at it's apex status

Godchild was created to keep organics alive so tribute could continue flowing.

While it may be true that tribute doesnt flow from dead races, it also doesnt flow from giant robotic cuttlefish.

Godchild is not acting in accordance with its programming.

Giant robotic cuddle fish. Lol.

[Eryri]

Restrider wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Thanks. Did you see the idea that Demersel was discussing earlier in the thread that indoctrination itself might be the "intelligence"? A sort of mind-virus that co-opts organic brains into its service. Quite a far-out idea but it appeals to me.

Another literature reference:
Has anyone read Snow Crash written by Neal Stephenson (quite exceptional novel)?
There you have the whole mind virus theme explained, though it is only loosely related to this topic...

I've got a copy - it's a great read.

Modifié par Eryri, 14 septembre 2012 - 11:08 .