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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#22176
Dwailing

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ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

Just now thought of this but wasn't there a specific(there were two actually) line in the Leviathan leak months ago that referenced Harbinger in the new catalyst lines? It was essentially "Who is OLD TONGUE NAME OF HARBINGER?
?" or something like that, right? Was that in the ending?


I watched the added dialogue on YouTube.  That line was NOT in the endings.  It seems like there really IS still more to come.

Edit: Also, on a random note, I was just able to download Black Mesa!  I'm going to start playing it today.

Modifié par Dwailing, 15 septembre 2012 - 03:38 .


#22177
NebuchadnezzaRT

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@Ace7 If your talking about the Husk-Shepard face, it is possible to edit a Cerberus centurion's indoctrinated face onto your custom Shepard's face through tools like (haha only?) Gibbed's.

#22178
Dwailing

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NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

@Ace7 If your talking about the Husk-Shepard face, it is possible to edit a Cerberus centurion's indoctrinated face onto your custom Shepard's face through tools like (haha only?) Gibbed's.


I wonder if BioWare will do anything like that in Synthesis...  (I'm a fan of symbolic retribution, so I figure that for choosing Synthesis, Shepard should be turned into a Paul Grayson style Reaper slave.  Control would just be indoctrination, but Synthesis would be even worse.)

#22179
paxxton

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It seems everyone here despises Synthesis. Why? Don't you want cool upgrades?

Btw, this video has a sinister feel to it, thanks to the music overlay.

Modifié par paxxton, 15 septembre 2012 - 03:49 .


#22180
spotlessvoid

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So I ran into Jessica Merizan's dog groomer who said IT isn't true because she heard a voice mail playing from Mike Gamble at Jessica's house that said IT was wrong. The voice mail mentions byne by name. It's official

#22181
401 Kill

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paxxton wrote...

It seems everyone here despises Synthesis. I'm not sure why. Don't you want cool upgrades?

Btw, this video has a sinister feel to it, thanks to the music overlay.

If by "cool upgrades" you mean "turned into a reaper trooper" then no.

#22182
Guest_magnetite_*

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"Each harvest ends with a birth of a Reaper, perfect in it's design. Each formed in Harbinger's image--our image"

When I heard that I immediately thought synthesis and I knew something was bad news.

#22183
Iconoclaste

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Leviathan pretty much confirmed the entire ending sequence is an illusion.

While I do not wish to discuss the "validity" of this assumption, I will just point to you how your arguments do not relate to your objective, hence making them pointless in this context. I do that only for clarity of discussion. Please be indulgent with the form I will use.

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
- Space boy looks like the kid back on Earth ("Your memories will give voice to our words" - Leviathans conjure images from Shepard's memory and talk to her by showing her people that she knows) - Check

I do not think that "literalists" would argue that Reapers or Leviathans can access their target's memories, since accessing the mind in some way is a pre-requisite for indoctrination. No need to hammer on this nail, but you do not make the proper parallel with anything else but the "kid" which by the way looks "holographic" rather than "real" like the people shown to Shepard in the Leviathan's illusion.

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
- "I know you've thought about destroying us" ("Your nature will be revealed to us") - Check

A genius is not required to ascertain this, since Shepard already showed severe inclination towards destroying Reapers for 3 games now. But in any case, that does not indicate that the "ending is all an illusion", it merely shows particular knowledge from the Catalyst.

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
- Shepard is on hands and knees in front of the space kid (Shepard is on hands and knees when being controlled in the illusion) - Check

Usually, when someone tries to stand up from a knocked out posture, he usually does so by steps, we very rarely see someone doing an elaborate Bruce Lee kind of move to get up, especially when wearing armor. Shepard's posture "on all fours" is not really showing that everything is an illusion with the "space kid", while I can agree the situation looks different with the Leviathans.

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
- Shepard's nose is bleeding (The Leviathan mind control causes Shep's nose to bleed) - Check

In Leviathan, there are no other reason for Shepard's nose to bleed, except maybe the deep sea pressure (even a light pops off on the meca). But with the Catalyst, following all what Shepard endured, a common nose bleed is lost among lots of other severe injuries. While a bleeding nose can show the player that Shepard his in some definite "state", that doesn't mean the environment is not the one the player sees.

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
- All Reapers have the ability to influence organics like the Leviathans, only the Reapers have developed this ability and perfected it (Reapers' mind control techniques are even more advanced than the Leviathans') - Check

This does not explain how the end sequence can be a dream, it only repeats something even literalists know.

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
- The sound that signifies the transition between reality and illusion in Leviathan is the exact same sound you hear when Shepard is zapped onto the Citadel - Check

In the Leviathan scene, the sound is played when Shepard "wakes up" inside the mech, while in the Citadel scene it plays when Shepard pops off the beam, so it can hardly be described as the sound for transition between "reality and illusion", especially when IT proposed long time ago that Shepard pops into dream state before landing on the Citadel. At best, wording should either be "transition into reality" or "transition into illusion", because if you infer that the sound playing when Shepard "wakes up" in the mech has the same "meaning" on the Citadel, it then means Shepard "wakes up" in the Citadel. You can't reasonably use a fact to prove something and its opposite in this situation. I would suggest trying to find the sounds used in similar situations instead.

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
... and people have the audacity to claim IT is dead? Laughable. It's more alive than EVER.

I'm not sure a theory can "die", but I understand your point.

#22184
spotlessvoid

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Paxxton! Jellyfish can't get indoctrinated! Sheesh, that's like the 12th time bro

#22185
DoomsdayDevice

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spotlessvoid wrote...

So I ran into Jessica Merizan's dog groomer who said IT isn't true because she heard a voice mail playing from Mike Gamble at Jessica's house that said IT was wrong. The voice mail mentions byne by name. It's official


I lol'd.

#22186
paxxton

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So, perhaps, I did the right thing by choosing Control exclusively. Posted Image

Modifié par paxxton, 15 septembre 2012 - 03:56 .


#22187
Dendio1

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Even if bioware left a message after credits saying "btw IT theory is false". People would still find away around it.

And that's their right. Believe what you want to believe. Its your shepard after all.

#22188
spotlessvoid

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Iconiclaste....
One correction-that sound plays at the beginning of Leviathan scene. I came to the same conclusion at first and asked what that means regarding the timing of it. I found video and I heard it a couple of times

#22189
paxxton

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

So I ran into Jessica Merizan's dog groomer who said IT isn't true because she heard a voice mail playing from Mike Gamble at Jessica's house that said IT was wrong. The voice mail mentions byne by name. It's official


I lol'd.

That's breaking news! So she heard a voice, ok. Posted Image

#22190
spotlessvoid

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Dendio1 wrote...

Even if bioware left a message after credits saying "btw IT theory is false". People would still find away around it.

And that's their right. Believe what you want to believe. Its your shepard after all.

I could say the opposite

#22191
Iconoclaste

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Iconiclaste....
One correction-that sound plays at the beginning of Leviathan scene. I came to the same conclusion at first and asked what that means regarding the timing of it. I found video and I heard it a couple of times

I agree entirely that this sound is realistically related to the "into and out of reality" idea in the Leviathan scene. The problem is that it should be demonstrated in the same way for the Citadel : only 1 occurence of the sound cannot show if Shepard is experiencing "in" or  "out" of reality, but it sure can be interpreted as "out "of the Beam, at best.

#22192
401 Kill

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Even if bioware left a message after credits saying "btw IT theory is false". People would still find away around it.

And that's their right. Believe what you want to believe. Its your shepard after all.

I could say the opposite

Yes, and the thing is: They have not said its false, they said that it is a valid interpretation. I have no idea why people feel the need to use "if they said the theory is false" while trying to make a point. The fact of the matter is that the have said its not false!

#22193
Code_R

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Hello to all the theorists. Unhappy as I am with the conclusion of ME3, the whole IT has not been something I have looked into a great deal, I think purely thanks to the volume of writing on the subject. I also have to admit I fell for Synthesis. Seeing this though, has kind of left me without words:


Posted Image


Whether this will ever be elaborated on officially... who knows.

Modifié par Code_R, 15 septembre 2012 - 04:11 .


#22194
paxxton

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401 Kill wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Even if bioware left a message after credits saying "btw IT theory is false". People would still find away around it.

And that's their right. Believe what you want to believe. Its your shepard after all.

I could say the opposite

Yes, and the thing is: They have not said its false, they said that it is a valid interpretation. I have no idea why people feel the need to use "if they said the theory is false" while trying to make a point. The fact of the matter is that the have said its not false!

That's a Socratic Exercise. Suppose...we do not exist. Posted Image What now? Posted Image

Modifié par paxxton, 15 septembre 2012 - 04:16 .


#22195
Iconoclaste

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401 Kill wrote...

 ( ... ) Yes, and the thing is: They have not said its false, they said that it is a valid interpretation. I have no idea why people feel the need to use "if they said the theory is false" while trying to make a point. The fact of the matter is that the have said its not false!

At best, someone could say "The arguments on which IT relies are (valid or invalid)", but to bluntly state that  "Is the ending an hallucination" is "false" is just nonsense : how could this "question" be "false"? IT is the "process of finding answers" to that question, so I always miss the point behind attacking the "process". If a "valid and solidly structured set of facts / hints" is finally found, and it achieves explaining the endings without holes, then the IT has attained its goal.

#22196
spotlessvoid

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Iconoclaste wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Iconiclaste....
One correction-that sound plays at the beginning of Leviathan scene. I came to the same conclusion at first and asked what that means regarding the timing of it. I found video and I heard it a couple of times

I agree entirely that this sound is realistically related to the "into and out of reality" idea in the Leviathan scene. The problem is that it should be demonstrated in the same way for the Citadel : only 1 occurence of the sound cannot show if Shepard is experiencing "in" or  "out" of reality, but it sure can be interpreted as "out "of the Beam, at best.


It's odd they sound almost identical. There wouldn't be an exit sound though for the end, and it's certainly possible that Shep doesn't go into FULL hallucination until after jumping into the beam

#22197
demersel

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the picture here was so awesome - it made some people hurt and swallow their tounges, so it had to be taken down, :innocent:

Modifié par demersel, 15 septembre 2012 - 04:29 .


#22198
Iconoclaste

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demersel wrote...   

Bioware never pretended interpreting the endings would be easy! :D

#22199
spotlessvoid

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Code R

It's not impossible for some pointless wheels to be there I guess. I mean, how else did starchild get the choice-o-matic there? He didn't do it with a hand cart.

#22200
paxxton

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demersel wrote...

 @iconoclast & @dendio1
Your insightfull, yet nitpicking posts has opened my eyes. (a bit wider, then they are usually)

*snip*

This pic is so hypnotizing.

Modifié par paxxton, 15 septembre 2012 - 04:30 .