80611 réponses à ce sujet

[401 Kill]

Iconoclaste wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

 ( ... ) Yes, and the thing is: They have not said its false, they said that it is a valid interpretation. I have no idea why people feel the need to use "if they said the theory is false" while trying to make a point. The fact of the matter is that the have said its not false!

At best, someone could say "The arguments on which IT relies are (valid or invalid)", but to bluntly state that  "Is the ending an hallucination" is "false" is just nonsense : how could this "question" be "false"? IT is the "process of finding answers" to that question, so I always miss the point behind attacking the "process". If a "valid and solidly structured set of facts / hints" is finally found, and it achieves explaining the endings without holes, then the IT has attained its goal.

I apologize, I worded that last sentance terribly. I should have used "they said that it is a valid interpretation". But since I said that at the beginning, I tried to word it differently and chose poorly.

[Lord Goose]

Usually, when someone tries to stand up from a knocked out posture, he usually does so by steps, we very rarely see someone doing an elaborate Bruce Lee kind of move to get up, especially when wearing armor. Shepard's posture "on all fours" is not really showing that everything is an illusion with the "space kid", while I can agree the situation looks different with the Leviathans.

Speaking of which, Shepard is on his fours in the Leviathan, after he leaves the Trident.

http://www.youtube.c...9Rpse0qU#t=817s

13: 37

- All Reapers have the ability to influence organics like the Leviathans, only the Reapers have developed this ability and perfected it (Reapers' mind control techniques are even more advanced than the Leviathans') - Check

Leviathans seems to have much less problem with indoctrination than the Reapers, since they were planning to make Shepard their servant, even though they just have met in person. If Reapers were able to indoctrinate people that easily, where shouldn't be any fighting.

[spotlessvoid]

Iconoclaste wrote...

demersel wrote...   

Bioware never pretended interpreting the endings would be easy!

I think I just had a mini epileptic seizure

[paxxton]

CONTROL FTW!!!

Modifié par paxxton, 15 septembre 2012 - 04:28 .

[spotlessvoid]

Take that down bro. I'm about to swallow my tongue

[paxxton]

Done! Better?

[demersel]

Done.

[demersel]

spotlessvoid? Are you ok?

[Iconoclaste]

By the way, I know lots of players felt that the endings "killed the replay value" of the whole series. I would simply like to ask this question : how many times have players, here on the IT thread, start playing, again and again, went diving for clues in the files, in the other two games, read the Codex anew, etc. because of the endings? Isn't this the very evidence that, in fact, the endings left room for replay exactly because the endings are still "open" to interpretation"?

If answering this question looks uncomfortable the way I wrote it, then just try to put it in the opposite context : what fun would there be to replay a game that has nothing "undiscovered" along the way, and that leaves no doubt about the final issues?

[spotlessvoid]

On all fours "what just happened?"

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

On all fours "what just happened?"

Sorry that the pic had that effect on you. I wouldn't post it if I knew.

Modifié par paxxton, 15 septembre 2012 - 04:44 .

[spotlessvoid]

Iconoclaste...
ME endings killed the emotional impact of the game for me. I'll forgive Bioware as long as it's not all for naught

[demersel]

Iconoclaste wrote...

By the way, I know lots of players felt that the endings "killed the replay value" of the whole series. I would simply like to ask this question : how many times have players, here on the IT thread, start playing, again and again, went diving for clues in the files, in the other two games, read the Codex anew, etc. because of the endings? Isn't this the very evidence that, in fact, the endings left room for replay exactly because the endings are still "open" to interpretation"?

If answering this question looks uncomfortable the way I wrote it, then just try to put it in the opposite context : what fun would there be to replay a game that has nothing "undiscovered" along the way, and that leaves no doubt about the final issues?

I'll tell you - i did ONE playthrough of the ME3.   the rest is multiplayer. I do enjoy looing for clues. But while i do so - i don't PLAY the game. 

[spotlessvoid]

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

On all fours "what just happened?"

Sorry that the pic had that effect on you. I wouldn't post it if I knew.

Lol you should know better, control causes brain damage.

[demersel]

spotlessvoid wrote...

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

On all fours "what just happened?"

Sorry that the pic had that effect on you. I wouldn't post it if I knew.

Lol you should know better, control causes brain damage.

Oh! So you were fine with the pinguins, then? :innocent:

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

On all fours "what just happened?"

Sorry that the pic had that effect on you. I wouldn't post it if I knew.

Lol you should know better, control causes brain damage.

It didn't in my case.

[spotlessvoid]

demersel wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

On all fours "what just happened?"

Sorry that the pic had that effect on you. I wouldn't post it if I knew.

Lol you should know better, control causes brain damage.

Oh! So you were fine with the pinguins, then? :innocent:

Blank stare. Blinks. "What penguins" Blinks. Stares.

[Iconoclaste]

demersel wrote...

I'll tell you - i did ONE playthrough of the ME3.   the rest is multiplayer. I do enjoy looing for clues. But while i do so - i don't PLAY the game.

I started a new run of ME2, I'm enjoying it much but I think I will start from ME1 soon, just to get the whole thing in a stretch.

[spotlessvoid]

Iconoclaste wrote...

demersel wrote...

I'll tell you - i did ONE playthrough of the ME3.   the rest is multiplayer. I do enjoy looing for clues. But while i do so - i don't PLAY the game.

I started a new run of ME2, I'm enjoying it much but I think I will start from ME1 soon, just to get the whole thing in a stretch.

Beware of Vigil

[spotlessvoid]

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

On all fours "what just happened?"

Sorry that the pic had that effect on you. I wouldn't post it if I knew.

Lol you should know better, control causes brain damage.

It didn't in my case.

It must have, you also like synthesis:D

[Iconoclaste]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

demersel wrote...

I'll tell you - i did ONE playthrough of the ME3.   the rest is multiplayer. I do enjoy looing for clues. But while i do so - i don't PLAY the game.

I started a new run of ME2, I'm enjoying it much but I think I will start from ME1 soon, just to get the whole thing in a stretch.

Beware of Vigil

I'm more frightened about the Mako getting stuck in polygons...

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

On all fours "what just happened?"

Sorry that the pic had that effect on you. I wouldn't post it if I knew.

Lol you should know better, control causes brain damage.

It didn't in my case.

It must have, you also like synthesis:D

Oh! So I must be immune to the adverse effects those endings have. Nice.

[Restrider]

Iconoclaste wrote...

By the way, I know lots of players felt that the endings "killed the replay value" of the whole series. I would simply like to ask this question : how many times have players, here on the IT thread, start playing, again and again, went diving for clues in the files, in the other two games, read the Codex anew, etc. because of the endings? Isn't this the very evidence that, in fact, the endings left room for replay exactly because the endings are still "open" to interpretation"?

If answering this question looks uncomfortable the way I wrote it, then just try to put it in the opposite context : what fun would there be to replay a game that has nothing "undiscovered" along the way, and that leaves no doubt about the final issues?

This is a good point!
I will compare the end of ME 3 to the worst ending in recent SciFi (at least for me).
The endings of Battlestar Galactica.
While the series itslef was great (throughout the first two seasons and good in the last two seasons) the ending was just plain horrible. It was just a Deus Ex (not even Machina) and there was no room left for interpretation and that's what made it bad beyond comprehesion.
It destroys the series as a whole, because at the beginning of the series I already know how cr@ppy it is going to end.
Just my two cents on that topic.

Edit: Related link:
God was the ending an atrocity... *goes to play ME 3 MP*

Modifié par Restrider, 15 septembre 2012 - 05:09 .

[spotlessvoid]

Iconoclaste wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

demersel wrote...

I'll tell you - i did ONE playthrough of the ME3.   the rest is multiplayer. I do enjoy looing for clues. But while i do so - i don't PLAY the game.

I started a new run of ME2, I'm enjoying it much but I think I will start from ME1 soon, just to get the whole thing in a stretch.

Beware of Vigil

I'm more frightened about the Mako getting stuck in polygons...

Dont forget to save when entering buildings-it often doesnt autosave. I just started playing me1 for the first time in 2 years

[Eryri]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

In a way, yes. On the most perfect playthroughs, Shepard even unites the Geth and the Quarian, proving that what the so-called catalyst says, isn't true.

The beauty of the peace between the Geth and Quarrian is that they come to an understanding on their own terms. It turned out the Quarians struck first, out of fear of having developed AI with self-awareness. The Geth were forced to ally themselves with the Reapers, which they deemed preferable to extinction. The Geth even decided to spare what remained of the Quarians, because they weren't sure what the consequences would be of wiping out an entire race.

The catalyst is now wrong on three accounts:

1. The created will always turn on their creators - the Geth did not. They asked if they had a soul, and became the victims of a pre-emptive genocide by their creators.
2. Organics will be wiped out by synthetics without the cycle - again: the Geth did not wipe out the Quarians, even when they had the chance.
3. There can never be peace between organics and synthetics - There is peace between Geth & Quarians.

Once Shepard convinces the Quarians that the Geth only acted in self-defence against the aggressive actions of the Quarians - both races agreed upon peace, on their own terms, as it should be. A 'forced' synthesis, a magical solution that forces a new form upon everyone in the galaxy, is wrong on so many levels. For one, it is not chosen by those involved, it is forced. Secondly, the status of peace isn't chosen either. It is forced, simply by removing the need for conflict. This is simply morally wrong.

The whole beauty of the peace between Quarians is the fact that it seemed impossible, yet the two factions chose to trust each other, on their own terms.

And there we arrive at what the Mass Effect series truly is about. It is not about achieving peace between organics and synthetics, that is just an avatar.

Ultimately, Mass Effect is about free will.

And that's where Indoctrination comes in.

Agreed 100%. This is why I disagree with those pro-ending literalists who say that synthetics vs organics was a major theme throughout the games and the endings resolve this.

Literal conflict between synthetics and organics is a very shallow theme because it is (currently at least) inapplicable to real life - there are no self aware machines in the real world yet. It only becomes meaningful when used as an allegory for conflict between oppressors and the oppressed and their attemps to gain freedom. This is the basis for many sci-fi stories. Like all good sci-fi buffs, I'm sure you're all aware that the word robot is derived from the Czech word for slave. 

However the literal interpretation of the ending fails utterly as an allegory for real life issues of oppression. It uses a ridiculously unbelivable magic machine to allow the hero to supposedly solve this problem in 3, more or less, morally repugnant ways. 

However Shepard already resolved this back on Rannoch - by fostering understanding between former enemies, who came to realise they were not so different after all. Not by silly space magic, which is utterly inapplicable to real life.

I also think Leviathan is more good thematic evidence against control. The Leviathans were brought down by their own arrogance and moral decadence. They treated others as tools and means to their ends. As such they were totally unable to conceive that one of their tools might have a mind of its own.

The control ending allows Shepard to enslave a race of sentient beings. The fact that said beings are murderous robo-cuttlefish is immaterial - two wrongs don't make a right. Control is repeating the mistakes of the Leviathans.