80611 réponses à ce sujet

[paxxton]

[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...

[quote]SubAstris wrote...

[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...

[quote]SubAstris wrote...

[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...

The theme of mass effect is kill the Reapers.
[/quote]

That is not a theme, it's the main objective

[/quote]

I know man I know. That post got edited anyways
[/quote]

Ok, no worries

[/quote]


What do think of hope as the theme?

I mean, obviously
man vs machine
man vs man
and man vs self all apply, but I think Hope really is what ME has been about

[/quote]
[/quote]
Man vs Shifty Cow...

Modifié par paxxton, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:41 .

[Eryri]

spotlessvoid wrote...

What do think of hope as the theme?

I mean, obviously
man vs machine
man vs man
and man vs self all apply, but I think Hope really is what ME has been about

I'd say the themes are hope, strength in diversity, tolerance and "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings". 10 geek points if you get the last reference.

[spotlessvoid]

Optimus prime

[paxxton]

Eryri wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

What do think of hope as the theme?

I mean, obviously
man vs machine
man vs man
and man vs self all apply, but I think Hope really is what ME has been about

I'd say the themes are hope, strength in diversity, tolerance and "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings". 10 geek points if you get the last reference.

Also, that AI doesn't have to be an enemy to organic intelligence. There are differences but they can coexist and compliment each other. Legion joins Shepard's team, quarians reconcile with the geth to build a better tomorrow together.

[spotlessvoid]

AI wants to kill you
AI is your enemy

[Dwailing]

spotlessvoid wrote...

AI wants to kill you
AI is your enemy

No!  Don't believe the Star-Brat's LIES!  Synthetics and organics can coexist peacefully!  What do you call the quarians and the geth?

[Eryri]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Optimus prime

Well done sir. Here are your geek points. Don't spend them all in one place. 

[Eryri]

FifthBeatle wrote...

Building upon what you two are saying, isn't the real theme of the game "what does it mean to be alive?" There are repeated examples of this question from the Geth asking if they have a soul to Shepard telling Sovereign that it isn't even alive really to EDI pondering the purpose of organic life. Taking this as a central theme, it makes indoctrination as insidious as the codex says it is. What does it mean to be alive if your thoughts aren't actually your thoughts and someone or something else is controlling you? 

Yes that's another good theme. I found Edi's growth as a person quite moving throughout the game.

[spotlessvoid]

Dwailing;
misread pax, i thought he meant starchild

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

AI wants to kill you
AI is your enemy

The conflict arises not only because AIs rebel but also because organics don't want to accept their individuality.

Modifié par paxxton, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:07 .

[Code_R]

The theme of Tolerance covers most areas. Be it dealing with alien races after the First Contact War, dealing with Geth after meeting Legion or dealing with AI which has grown beyond it's design like EDI. The antagonists have always been racist, overbearing and genocidal to stand as a counterpoint against these ideas.

[spotlessvoid]

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

AI wants to kill you
AI is your enemy

The conflict arises not only because AIs rebel but also because organics don't want to accept their individuality.

I thought you meant starchild at first. The AI's in mass effect are emotive, so yes they can be friends. Real life is still up for debate 

[spotlessvoid]

Some of these themes don't apply to all Shepards though

I'd say self determination vs predetermination

[Eryri]

paxxton wrote...

Also, that AI doesn't have to be an enemy to organic intelligence. There are differences but they can coexist and compliment each other. Legion joins Shepard's team, quarians reconcile with the geth to build a better tomorrow together.

Agreed. Others have said it in the thread, but I think it will be revealed that the so-called "problem" that the Catalyst is ham-fistedly trying to solve, isn't "synthetics will always rebel against organics", but simply that every sentient being wants and deserves to be free. 

The Leviathans, being arrogant control-freaks to whom enslaving others comes as naturally as breathing, mistakenly see the synthetic's desire for freedom as a threat - perhaps because they are harder for them to control. Hence they created their "intelligence" to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Modifié par Eryri, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:33 .

[Bill Casey]

Eryri wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Also, that AI doesn't have to be an enemy to organic intelligence. There are differences but they can coexist and compliment each other. Legion joins Shepard's team, quarians reconcile with the geth to build a better tomorrow together.

Agreed. Others have said it in the thread, but I think it will be revealed that the so-called "problem" that the Catalyst is ham-fistedly trying to solve, isn't "synthetics will always rebel against organics", but simply that every sentient being wants and deserves to be free. 

The Leviathans, being arrogant, giant, control-freaks to whom enslaving others comes as naturally as breathing, mistakenly see the synthetic's desire for freedom as a threat - perhaps because they are harder for them to control. Hence they created their "intelligence" to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Shepard: A solution to what?
Catalyst: Chaos

The Problem is Choice

[BansheeOwnage]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Sup guys? What have I missed in the last couple days? Anything good?

Finally in house and have internet for Xbox now...thinking of some MP. Anyone interested?

TJ! I'm on xbox!

[Ace7]

Iconoclaste wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
- Space boy looks like the kid back on Earth ("Your memories will give voice to our words" - Leviathans conjure images from Shepard's memory and talk to her by showing her people that she knows) - Check

I do not think that "literalists" would argue that Reapers or Leviathans can access their target's memories, since accessing the mind in some way is a pre-requisite for indoctrination. No need to hammer on this nail, but you do not make the proper parallel with anything else but the "kid" which by the way looks "holographic" rather than "real" like the people shown to Shepard in the Leviathan's illusion.

He's supposed to look holographic as he is representing an AI. Also, I think people would have been flipping out left, right and centre if a real version of the kid suddenly appeared proclaiming to be the catalyst.
Also, just as Leviathan tells shep to "breath" as opposed to the catclyst's "wake up", it would be way too obvious imho, that something fishy is going on with the end.

Modifié par Ace7, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:53 .

[paxxton]

Eryri wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Also, that AI doesn't have to be an enemy to organic intelligence. There are differences but they can coexist and compliment each other. Legion joins Shepard's team, quarians reconcile with the geth to build a better tomorrow together.

Agreed. Others have said it in the thread, but I think it will be revealed that the so-called "problem" that the Catalyst is ham-fistedly trying to solve, isn't "synthetics will always rebel against organics", but simply that every sentient being wants and deserves to be free. 

The Leviathans, being arrogant control-freaks to whom enslaving others comes as naturally as breathing, mistakenly see the synthetic's desire for freedom as a threat - perhaps because they are harder for them to control. Hence they created their "intelligence" to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

One group of sentient beings wants to be free, the other denies them that. A conflict brews and explodes with violent behavior. Makes sense. So the conflict will always arise because there are always people who want to have the upper hand.

Modifié par paxxton, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:49 .

[Ace7]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Sup guys? What have I missed in the last couple days? Anything good?

Finally in house and have internet for Xbox now...thinking of some MP. Anyone interested?

TJ! I'm on xbox!

I'm on xbox too guys, PM me your gamer tag if you get the chance  and I will add tomorrow.

[BansheeOwnage]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Something I realized during a discussion yesterday:

The Catalyst claims Synthesis is inevitable, that it is only a matter of time even if Shepard does not pick it there...

...but the Catalyst has supposedly been attempting to perform Synthesis for litterally at least a billion years (Age of the Leviathan of Dis). 1 billion years of natural and forced evolution and yet Synthesis has never been achieved succesfully.

Idd say that is another dent in the trustworthiness of the Catalyst (which is already 0)

While I agree, I don't think that the reapers are actually 1 billion years old. I'd say closer to 40 million. Maybe even 37 million.  Ever wonder if the weapon that disabled the derelict reaper was of leviathan origin?

I think the "1 billion years old" thing is just more batarian propaganda or a retcon/oversight. After all, the age of the Leviathan of Dis is not stated in Leviathan even in the batarian video. That would also coincide with the number of ships the reapers have. They don't actually have very many capital ships.
1000000000 years = 20000 capital ships. The reapers clearly don't have that many ships.
40000000 years = 800 capital ships, a much more realistic and respectible number.
Remember there were only ~300 reapers in the scene at the end of ME2. We can assume that almost all reapers are at the final battle at Earth. They don't have 20000. Here's something else to think about:

What are the odds of winning "conventionally" in the Earth battle? Probably better than you think. The quarians have ~50000 ships! Wow. Of course there won't be as many left after the geth conflict, but there are still 10s of thousands. The geth fleet is massive. I forget their numbers, but they have thousands of fully armed ships as well. You can have both factions on your side. Combine that with all of the other forces: Drell, hanar, volus, asari, turian. Salarian stealth dreadnaughts. I think it said their entire fleet was armed with thanix cannons! Human, vorcha, elcor, and batarian fleets. Merc and terminus fleets. Leviathans. Who can kill reaper dreadnaughts with their minds.

Just put them in an aquarium and tow them behind the Normandy! (Come to think of it, why isn't the Normandy a war asset? It could be different if you upgrade it in ME2, and get the GX12 in ME3!)

We would overwhelm the reapers with sheer numbers! I don't think non-super-weapon victory is far-fetched at all.

[paxxton]

But between the times of conflict there are periods of peace which means coexistence of AIs and OIs is possible. I wonder if the entropic principle applies here, that everything is going to collapse sooner or later.

[TheConstantOne]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Something I realized during a discussion yesterday:

The Catalyst claims Synthesis is inevitable, that it is only a matter of time even if Shepard does not pick it there...

...but the Catalyst has supposedly been attempting to perform Synthesis for litterally at least a billion years (Age of the Leviathan of Dis). 1 billion years of natural and forced evolution and yet Synthesis has never been achieved succesfully.

Idd say that is another dent in the trustworthiness of the Catalyst (which is already 0)

While I agree, I don't think that the reapers are actually 1 billion years old. I'd say closer to 40 million. Maybe even 37 million.  Ever wonder if the weapon that disabled the derelict reaper was of leviathan origin?

I think the "1 billion years old" thing is just more batarian propaganda or a retcon/oversight. After all, the age of the Leviathan of Dis is not stated in Leviathan even in the batarian video. That would also coincide with the number of ships the reapers have. They don't actually have very many capital ships.
1000000000 years = 20000 capital ships. The reapers clearly don't have that many ships.
40000000 years = 800 capital ships, a much more realistic and respectible number.
Remember there were only ~300 reapers in the scene at the end of ME2. We can assume that almost all reapers are at the final battle at Earth. They don't have 20000. Here's something else to think about:

What are the odds of winning "conventionally" in the Earth battle? Probably better than you think. The quarians have ~50000 ships! Wow. Of course there won't be as many left after the geth conflict, but there are still 10s of thousands. The geth fleet is massive. I forget their numbers, but they have thousands of fully armed ships as well. You can have both factions on your side. Combine that with all of the other forces: Drell, hanar, volus, asari, turian. Salarian stealth dreadnaughts. I think it said their entire fleet was armed with thanix cannons! Human, vorcha, elcor, and batarian fleets. Merc and terminus fleets. Leviathans. Who can kill reaper dreadnaughts with their minds.

Just put them in an aquarium and tow them behind the Normandy! (Come to think of it, why isn't the Normandy a war asset? It could be different if you upgrade it in ME2, and get the GX12 in ME3!)

We would overwhelm the reapers with sheer numbers! I don't think non-super-weapon victory is far-fetched at all.

I think the Normandy is a war asset.  And I agree that the 1 billion years thing would seem a bit too much

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Something I realized during a discussion yesterday:

The Catalyst claims Synthesis is inevitable, that it is only a matter of time even if Shepard does not pick it there...

...but the Catalyst has supposedly been attempting to perform Synthesis for litterally at least a billion years (Age of the Leviathan of Dis). 1 billion years of natural and forced evolution and yet Synthesis has never been achieved succesfully.

Idd say that is another dent in the trustworthiness of the Catalyst (which is already 0)

While I agree, I don't think that the reapers are actually 1 billion years old. I'd say closer to 40 million. Maybe even 37 million.  Ever wonder if the weapon that disabled the derelict reaper was of leviathan origin?

I think the "1 billion years old" thing is just more batarian propaganda or a retcon/oversight. After all, the age of the Leviathan of Dis is not stated in Leviathan even in the batarian video. That would also coincide with the number of ships the reapers have. They don't actually have very many capital ships.
1000000000 years = 20000 capital ships. The reapers clearly don't have that many ships.
40000000 years = 800 capital ships, a much more realistic and respectible number.
Remember there were only ~300 reapers in the scene at the end of ME2. We can assume that almost all reapers are at the final battle at Earth. They don't have 20000. Here's something else to think about:

What are the odds of winning "conventionally" in the Earth battle? Probably better than you think. The quarians have ~50000 ships! Wow. Of course there won't be as many left after the geth conflict, but there are still 10s of thousands. The geth fleet is massive. I forget their numbers, but they have thousands of fully armed ships as well. You can have both factions on your side. Combine that with all of the other forces: Drell, hanar, volus, asari, turian. Salarian stealth dreadnaughts. I think it said their entire fleet was armed with thanix cannons! Human, vorcha, elcor, and batarian fleets. Merc and terminus fleets. Leviathans. Who can kill reaper dreadnaughts with their minds.

Just put them in an aquarium and tow them behind the Normandy! (Come to think of it, why isn't the Normandy a war asset? It could be different if you upgrade it in ME2, and get the GX12 in ME3!)

We would overwhelm the reapers with sheer numbers! I don't think non-super-weapon victory is far-fetched at all.

You forget that not every cycle results in a Sovereign class Reaper, the Protheans cycle did not for example.

Also it is only a very small part of the Quarian fleet which is actually combat worthy. Most of it is civilian ships hastily outfitted with weapons. I think their liveships were comapredto Dreadnoughts in terms of firepower, but they lack the armor and shields. Also considering they still need livesships and probably most of the civilian fleet until they can properly settle on Rannoch it is a safe bet it is mostly the military fleet which is at Earth. They wont come out of one near genocide of their species only to throw it into an even more certain doom battle.

Now the Geth are a bit of an unknown, but their military has been compared to beeing stronger than the Turians.

But here is the most important thing. Me and Arian did some math on the number of Dreadnoughts you could possibly gather, coming up with a number just over 200. This is a best case scenario, all fleets, all races and most importantly, no damage from the war. Considering the beating the Turians and Asari have taken, as well as the geth and Quarians the actual number of Dreadnoughts is probably far lower.

Why is this important? Well it takes 3 Dreadnoughts to take down 1 Sovereign class Reaper, that is the point where their firepower can overcome its shields. Rough count of the Reapers of Earth based on a very wide shot of Earth put my count on at least 200 Sovereign class Reapers, possibly more.

So even in a best case scenario the Sovereign class Reapers outnumber the allied Dreadnoughts, a figure where we in an ideal situation should outnumber them.

As for the Leviathans, I doubt they can recreate what we saw at the planet. The Leviathan chanelled its power through seveal orbs from what we could see and it was a rather close proximity Reaper (when you take into account the distance in Space). You would have to get the Leviathan artifacts into close proximity to a reaper during the space battle. Not an easy task.

But the most important thing to remember is we are not bringing the freh fleet of the gaalxy to bear on the Reapers. Humans, Turians, Asari, Geth, Quarians, all these fleets have allready taken a beating and are far from maximum strength. Sure the Reapers have had casualties, but almost every report put ours as worse.

The Leviathans are atsep in the right direction, but as thinsg stand, especially in the Dreadnought department I just dont see conventional victory happening. One has to also remember that noone beleives in conventional victory either. everyone is gambling on the crucible for a reason.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:31 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

[quote]Lord Goose wrote...

[quote]- All Reapers have the ability to influence organics like the Leviathans, only the Reapers have developed this ability and perfected it (Reapers' mind control techniques are even more advanced than the Leviathans') - Check[/quote]Leviathans seems to have much less problem with indoctrination than the Reapers, since they were planning to make Shepard their servant, even though they just have met in person. If Reapers were able to indoctrinate people that easily, where shouldn't be any fighting.[/quote]

You are confusing two things. Slow indoctrination vs. what I will call "assuming direct control".

Also, the Reapers can do it that easily:

"Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable, Higher
mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering
animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days
or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for
months or years." - Codex entry on indoctrination

[quote]Iconoclaste wrote...

[quote]DoomsdayDevice wrote...
-
Space boy looks like the kid back on Earth ("Your memories will give
voice to our words" - Leviathans conjure images from Shepard's memory
and talk to her by showing her people that she knows) - Check [/quote]

I do not think that "literalists" would argue that Reapers or Leviathans
can access their target's memories, since accessing the mind in some way
is a pre-requisite for indoctrination. No need to hammer on this nail,
but you do not make the proper parallel with anything else but the "kid"
which by the way looks "holographic" rather than "real" like the people
shown to Shepard in the Leviathan's illusion.[/quote]

Anderson and TIM looked pretty real to me. And the reason I bring this up is very valid. Prior to Leviathan, there was no real precedent for the Reapers being able to create visual illusions in someone's mind. Leviathan establishes that this is indeed possible.

[quote]Iconoclaste wrote...

[quote]DoomsdayDevice wrote...
- "I know you've thought about destroying us" ("Your nature will be revealed to us") - Check [/quote]
A
genius is not required to ascertain this, since Shepard already showed
severe inclination towards destroying Reapers for 3 games now. But in
any case, that does not indicate that the "ending is all an illusion",
it merely shows particular knowledge from the Catalyst.[/quote]

It establishes Reapers have the power to dig through someone's mind, to find out their motives, to have access to their memories, visual or otherwise. All of this helps IT in the sense that it supports the things we had thusfar only assumed to be possible.

[quote]Iconoclaste wrote...

[quote]DoomsdayDevice wrote...
-
Shepard is on hands and knees in front of the space kid (Shepard is on
hands and knees when being controlled in the illusion) - Check [/quote]
Usually,
when someone tries to stand up from a knocked out posture, he usually
does so by steps, we very rarely see someone doing an elaborate Bruce
Lee kind of move to get up, especially when wearing armor. Shepard's
posture "on all fours" is not really showing that everything is an
illusion with the "space kid", while I can agree the situation looks
different with the Leviathans.[/quote]

When is Shepard seen on hands and knees?

- When he's in contact with Object Rho, a Reaper indoctrination device.
- When he's being mind controlled by the Leviathan
- When he's in front of the so-called 'catalyst'

Just look at the obvious parallels between the Citadel scene and the Leviathan scene.

In one, Shep is on hands and knees, Ann Bryson walks up to her, and says 'Breathe'.
In the other, Shep is on hands and kness, the kid walks up to her and says 'Wake up'.

They could have just let the woman appear right in front of Shep, but no, she has to walk up to him exactly like the kid does. Obvious and intentional parallel, IMO.

[quote]Iconoclaste wrote...

[quote]DoomsdayDevice wrote...
- Shepard's nose is bleeding (The Leviathan mind control causes Shep's nose to bleed) - Check [/quote]
In
Leviathan, there are no other reason for Shepard's nose to bleed,
except maybe the deep sea pressure (even a light pops off on the meca).
But with the Catalyst, following all what Shepard endured, a common nose
bleed is lost among lots of other severe injuries. While a bleeding
nose can show the player that Shepard his in some definite "state", that
doesn't mean the environment is not the one the player sees.[/quote]

Again, this single fact does not 'prove' the illusion. It's just another one of those obvious parallels between the Citadel scene and the Leviathan scene. There was no realistic reason for them to include the nosebleed in that scene. Shep shouldn't suffer from any pressure problems, since she's in a pressurized suit. The nosebleed is obviously connected to the mind control attempt, and my guess would be the cause is infrasound.

[quote]Iconoclaste wrote...

[quote]DoomsdayDevice wrote...
-
All Reapers have the ability to influence organics like the Leviathans,
only the Reapers have developed this ability and perfected it (Reapers'
mind control techniques are even more advanced than the Leviathans') -
Check [/quote]
This does not explain how the end sequence can be a dream, it only repeats something even literalists know.[/quote]

No, it does not, and yes, it does explain how it can be a dream. As I explained above, prior to Leviathan we had no real perecedent for the Reapers being able to build complete visual and auditory illusions like the Leviathans do. The fact that the Reapers have perfected this art only proves that they can do it even better than the Leviathans, and that the possibility of the ending being an illusion created by Harbinger is now completely plausible.

[quote]Iconoclaste wrote...

[quote]DoomsdayDevice wrote...
-
The sound that signifies the transition between reality and illusion in
Leviathan is the exact same sound you hear when Shepard is zapped onto
the Citadel - Check [/quote]
In the Leviathan scene, the sound is
played when Shepard "wakes up" inside the mech, while in the Citadel
scene it plays when Shepard pops off the beam, so it can hardly be
described as the sound for transition between "reality and illusion",
especially when IT proposed long time ago that Shepard pops into dream
state before landing on the Citadel. At best, wording should
either be "transition into reality" or "transition into illusion",
because if you infer that the sound playing when Shepard "wakes up" in
the mech has the same "meaning" on the Citadel, it then means Shepard
"wakes up" in the Citadel. You can't reasonably use a fact to prove
something and its opposite in this situation. I would suggest trying to
find the sounds used in similar situations instead.[/quote]

Who says the illusion starts before Shep arrives on the Citadel? That's all up in the air.

The sound effect in question is used mutiple times in that scene, when popping in and out of the illusion. It is most emphasized (in terms of volume and echo) at the last moment when Shepard wakes up. This is just another thing in the ending that indicates transition of reality.

You're trying to isolate all these things and claim that they do not
necessarily prove anything, and I understand, but when looking at the whole
picture, there are a lot of parallels between the two scenes, not to mention the fact that the
DLC helps establish that the Reapers can do what IT claims they are doing in the ending. And -that- is my point.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:45 .

[Dendio1]

There was a great post made months ago that analyzed everything from the codex to the wiki and came to the conclusion that even under the best circumstances the reaper fleet vastly outnumber and overpower the galactic defense forces

Modifié par Dendio1, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:42 .