80611 réponses à ce sujet

[spotlessvoid]

You said IT has as much proof as Elvis being alive, then said we can have our little theory as long as we admit it isn't reality....and that isn't insulting? Pffffffftt.

I KNEW the religious zealot line was coming!

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 17 septembre 2012 - 03:05 .

[Bill Casey]

A better comparison would be "Deckard is a replicant" theory...
Alternatively, "Quaid is still in Rekall"...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 17 septembre 2012 - 03:04 .

[prettz]

Bill Casey wrote...

A better comparison would be "Deckard is a replicant" theory...
Alternatively, "Quaid is still in Rekall"...

but Quaid is still in recall;)

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

You said IT has as much proof as Elvis being alive, then said we can have our little theory as long as we admit it isn't reality....and that isn't insulting? Pffffffftt.

I KNEW the religious zealot line was coming!

Elvis is dead!? But when? How?

[masster blaster]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

INDOCTRINATION can be direct control OR it can be a subtle subversion gradually realigning the victim's goals to the Reaper agenda.

Shepard is strong willed and incorruptible, so the Reapers can't easily play on his fears or lust for power. So it's a gradual process that culminates with a direct attempt from Harbinger to control a wounded, desperate Shepard, who has been worn down physically and emotionally and is much more susceptible to a direct attempt by a physically present Harbinger

Shepard is a lot of things, but desperate is never one of them. He's afraid of failure, but everyone is. Shepard's attitude is classical resolve. He's driven to his goal, but doesn't get stupid or panic over things.

Worn down doesn't mean anything because Shepard was rendered unconscious and kept sedated for two days by people who were indoctrinated, but made it out with his mind intact.

Are you sure Shepard doesn't panic at all. The friends Shepard as lost, the tough chocies he/she has to make, and not a single on made Shepard panic at all. When Ash, or Kadin got hurt, and even though they may not be your Shepard's LI, Shepard panics. Shepard panics a lost of times through out ME1-3.

Are you for real. Shepard had visions implanted in his/her head, and his/her mind was fine. Also Shepard if you pay attention is tired of WAR, and he/she is haunted by THAT BOY. That one boy that died on Earth causes the Grear Commander Shepard to quake in fear eveytime Shepard has a nightmer about that boy.

Hell everytime Shepard lost a friend it caused Shepard pain as hell, and now that his/her friends, or LI got hurt by Harbinger beam/ Mako explosion. He/she paniced to get them out, and no player's Shepard can refuse to do this, nor their Shepard feeling fear everytime he/she sees the kid.

Being haunted by things that happen during war and having nightmares over it is common in soldiers. It's called Post traumatic stress. And fact: Shepard's pointed out by Joker as being under tremendous stress.

Also there's a distinct difference between worry and panic. In panic, people lose control, get hyperactive and fall to pieces. Shepard gets his injured men to safety just as any soldier would. He doesn't freak out over it.

I wasn't talking about Shepard, I was talking about Shepard's friends being in harms way. Even Renegade Shepard is afrid to lose his/her LI/friends, and everytime one of his/her friends is indanger Shepard has a mini panic attack, and it happense a lot in ME3.

Grunt, Steve, Ash or Kadin, the squad you take with you to the Conduit that almost get's killed by Harbinger/ the Mako explosion.

Also you said Shepard is just a soldier, and soldiers can be broken. Shepard is not a god, nor can he/she fight forever.

[WhiteKnyght]

Home run MF wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

You drop Drews name like that somehow makes your interpretation official. Grayson's indoctrination occurred one way therefore all indoctrination occurs exactly that way. That last part is YOUR opinion

There is the fact that all other presented cases of indoctrination have been pretty much the same. One of the points of the novel was to thoroughly explore indoctrination.(Cerberus even plainly says they are using Grayson to study the indoctrination and conversion processes)

Your method of proving the IT is by denying the previous details we've been given in a game series where facts are pretty much everything.

You're doing the same thing you're accusing me of. You're also acting short tempered, defensive, and making direct personal attacks. Which I can easily report you over, I might add.

Grayson was  more of a Husk than human, the Reapers have diferent levels of indoctrination. Benezia and Saren were indoctrinated and didn't have visible Reaper tech (not for the entire game in Saren's case) if you are useful to them because you're in a position of power they are not gonna pump nanites inside you and modify your appereance because your function as a sleeper agent would be rendered useless.
Also we are not saying he is indoctrinated during the game, we're saying the decision chamber is the final click in Shepard's mind, depending on your choice you align yourself with the Reapers logic and become indoctrinated. Like Saren and TIM already did.

"Reaper "indoctrination"
is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the
brain through physical and psychological conditioning using
electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other
subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic
system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and
buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of
"being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately,
the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its
signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind."

Leviathan added a tidbit to the lore that shields can block those fields. When they showed that the fragment of Sovereign was shielded. Shepard has shields up most of the game.

Shepard only gets headaches a couple of times throughout the whole series and they have other causes. The humming noise he only hears in the shuttle bay, which is right below the engine room. Different from the ringing and buzzing he would have to be hearing inside of his head(my Dad had a head trauma last year, he still has ringing in his ears from it and gets frequent headaches.)

The only time Shepard heard a voices was when he was around Object Rho, but given the pulses it made when he heard them, it's plausible that the sound was coming from the Object itself. Not to mention Arrival can be skipped entirely, eliminating Shepard's exposure at that point. But it changes no events other than losing 50 points of war assets.

"Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's
"suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting
enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a
Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting
chaos can bring down nations.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable.
Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a
gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this
decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall
to last for months or years."

To say that the ending itself was an indoctrination attempt, it would have to be rapid indoctrination. Because Shepard has been established as clean of Indoc as recent as Thessia and Chronos station. And during the push to the beam, Shepard is at great range away from Harbinger(thing is probably at least two miles away going by its size and shown distance)

There's arguably not enough time between being blasted and making the final choice for the slow, patient version. Shepard spent more time aboard the Derelict Reaper and came out clean.

[GethPrimeMKII]

Grey_Nayr you are a laugh riot. I think Im gonna head out and do something else before I say something I regret and get banned.

[masster blaster]

And you know what else I have notice about Shepard's behavior Friendship. The bonds that Shepard has made with everyone through out all of ME1-3 is now being tested at the end of ME3. Shepard looses his/her friends/LI at the end of the game because Shepard panicky to get them out of the hot LZ, that he/she could have risked Joker, and everyone else on the Normandy to get killed just by that pick up.

Once any squad member lets go of Shepard's hand, that's when Shepard is at his/her most vulnerable state of mind. That is why Harbinger let them go because if Shepard were to have lost them, the player and Shepard would just kill the Reapers, and that is it.

Then their is Anderson the " Father figure for Shepard." If Anderson dies, then Shepard is lost without Anderson because Anderson has been their with Shepard ever since ME1, and now he is dead. Do you think Shepard is okay. Hell no. Shepard is confused because everything is going wrong in his/her world.

Anderson is dead, Hammer has been wiped out, and then The God child comes to save Shepard. No it's their to trick Shepard into getting him to follow the Reapers way.

[spotlessvoid]

I thought all indoctrination occurred like it did with Grayson?

Or did the "facts" just change?


Who says the Reapers haven't been trying the slow indoctrination? Slow is subversive. Shepard is not power hungry or weak, so they can't turn him by using his own desires. They've been trying though, and the end is Harbinger's final push after having wormed his way in to Sheps mind. Evidenced by the dreams having all the hallmarks of indoctrination...oily shadows, whispers, reaper horns....

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 17 septembre 2012 - 03:25 .

[Andromidius]

smokingotter1 wrote...

1. You make decisions for Shepard
2. Shepard rationalizes them.

You know, that's a really good point that I never really thought about.

Same thing goes with the Interupts - you might have an idea about what Shepard is about to do, but all you're doing it prompting Shep to do something good or something bad.

Its almost exactly like indoctrination.  That's kinda crazy, but awesome.

[plfranke]

Grey you are a complete moron. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that Harbinger was 2 miles from Shepard and even if he was, how close do you think Reapers have to be to start indoctrinating?

You say your dad's description of ptsd is waking up like he's in vietnam, but Shepard isn't waking up like he's in a war that's already happened. He's waking up in some forest with a dead kid and whispering shadows. How different could the two be?

It's been said numerous times that the prothean indoctrination detection could not be worth anything because they themselves were brought down by indoctrinated agents. You come on here and compare people who debate with far more logic than you religious zealots.

Well I'll compare you to something, an idiot. From where I'm standing it's pretty difficult to tell the difference.

[masster blaster]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

You drop Drews name like that somehow makes your interpretation official. Grayson's indoctrination occurred one way therefore all indoctrination occurs exactly that way. That last part is YOUR opinion

There is the fact that all other presented cases of indoctrination have been pretty much the same. One of the points of the novel was to thoroughly explore indoctrination.(Cerberus even plainly says they are using Grayson to study the indoctrination and conversion processes)

Your method of proving the IT is by denying the previous details we've been given in a game series where facts are pretty much everything.

You're doing the same thing you're accusing me of. You're also acting short tempered, defensive, and making direct personal attacks. Which I can easily report you over, I might add.

Grayson was  more of a Husk than human, the Reapers have diferent levels of indoctrination. Benezia and Saren were indoctrinated and didn't have visible Reaper tech (not for the entire game in Saren's case) if you are useful to them because you're in a position of power they are not gonna pump nanites inside you and modify your appereance because your function as a sleeper agent would be rendered useless.
Also we are not saying he is indoctrinated during the game, we're saying the decision chamber is the final click in Shepard's mind, depending on your choice you align yourself with the Reapers logic and become indoctrinated. Like Saren and TIM already did.

"Reaper "indoctrination"
is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the
brain through physical and psychological conditioning using
electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other
subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic
system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and
buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of
"being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately,
the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its
signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind."

Leviathan added a tidbit to the lore that shields can block those fields. When they showed that the fragment of Sovereign was shielded. Shepard has shields up most of the game.

Shepard only gets headaches a couple of times throughout the whole series and they have other causes. The humming noise he only hears in the shuttle bay, which is right below the engine room. Different from the ringing and buzzing he would have to be hearing inside of his head(my Dad had a head trauma last year, he still has ringing in his ears from it and gets frequent headaches.)

The only time Shepard heard a voices was when he was around Object Rho, but given the pulses it made when he heard them, it's plausible that the sound was coming from the Object itself. Not to mention Arrival can be skipped entirely, eliminating Shepard's exposure at that point. But it changes no events other than losing 50 points of war assets.

"Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's
"suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting
enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a
Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting
chaos can bring down nations.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable.
Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a
gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this
decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall
to last for months or years."

To say that the ending itself was an indoctrination attempt, it would have to be rapid indoctrination. Because Shepard has been established as clean of Indoc as recent as Thessia and Chronos station. And during the push to the beam, Shepard is at great range away from Harbinger(thing is probably at least two miles away going by its size and shown distance)

There's arguably not enough time between being blasted and making the final choice for the slow, patient version. Shepard spent more time aboard the Derelict Reaper and came out clean.

You don't get it don't you. The VI did not detect  the Indoctrinated agents until it was to late. IT can only detect the ones who are fully taintid with Reaper tech in them. Kai Leng had Reaper tech in him almost of Cerberus operativs that were human civlians did, and TIM to. They were FULLY Indoctrinated.

Besides how do we know what Indoctrination looks like? We only know what the side affects are, and that's it.

[masster blaster]

Also what would have happened if Shepard's squad mates were with Sheppard at the end of the game. Do you think that other people would have picked Control, and Synthetics, and refuse/Reject. Hell no most people would pick Destroy because ever sacrifice that everyone has made was to KILL THE Reapers. ONLY INDOCTRINATED people wanted to save the Reapers, but only if they were promised to Control them, and Synthesis Organics, and Synthetic.

What would Anderson say if he was with us to meet the Catalyst, and do you think Anderson would let Shepard pick Control, and Synthesis/ Refuse. NO he would say we are INDOCTRINATED, and would kill Shepard.

[Andromidius]

plfranke wrote...

You say your dad's description of ptsd is waking up like he's in vietnam, but Shepard isn't waking up like he's in a war that's already happened. He's waking up in some forest with a dead kid and whispering shadows. How different could the two be?

Also, there's two cases of actual PTSD in the game.  Kelly Chambers and the Asari Commando in the hospital.  It shows Bioware know what the symptoms actually are (and one of the lead writers has a degree in psychology, so I'd hope so too).  Thus if they wanted people to think Shepard had PTSD they'd know how to give that impression.

And they don't.  Shepard is stressed and exhausted, but not suffering PTSD.  At least not yet.

[Bill Casey]

masster blaster wrote...

What would Anderson say if he was with us to meet the Catalyst

Shepard, who are you talking to?

[Home run MF]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

Grayson was  more of a Husk than human, the Reapers have diferent levels of indoctrination. Benezia and Saren were indoctrinated and didn't have visible Reaper tech (not for the entire game in Saren's case) if you are useful to them because you're in a position of power they are not gonna pump nanites inside you and modify your appereance because your function as a sleeper agent would be rendered useless.
Also we are not saying he is indoctrinated during the game, we're saying the decision chamber is the final click in Shepard's mind, depending on your choice you align yourself with the Reapers logic and become indoctrinated. Like Saren and TIM already did.

Leviathan added a tidbit to the lore that shields can block those fields. When they showed that the fragment of Sovereign was shielded. Shepard has shields up most of the game.

Shepard only gets headaches a couple of times throughout the whole series and they have other causes. The humming noise he only hears in the shuttle bay, which is right below the engine room. Different from the ringing and buzzing he would have to be hearing inside of his head(my Dad had a head trauma last year, he still has ringing in his ears from it and gets frequent headaches.)

The only time Shepard heard a voices was when he was around Object Rho, but given the pulses it made when he heard them, it's plausible that the sound was coming from the Object itself. Not to mention Arrival can be skipped entirely, eliminating Shepard's exposure at that point. But it changes no events other than losing 50 points of war assets.


To say that the ending itself was an indoctrination attempt, it would have to be rapid indoctrination. Because Shepard has been established as clean of Indoc as recent as Thessia and Chronos station. And during the push to the beam, Shepard is at great range away from Harbinger(thing is probably at least two miles away going by its size and shown distance)

There's arguably not enough time between being blasted and making the final choice for the slow, patient version. Shepard spent more time aboard the Derelict Reaper and came out clean.

First of all you don't need to quote the entire wiki. 
You are assuming that the shield we see in Dr Bryson's lab is the same as a combat shield.
If I recall correctly Shepard spent most of ME 2 hearing Harbinger.
The Prothean VI is not a viable source for discarting someone from being indoctrinated. (As someone already pointed out to you).
As a race of ancient machines capable of building the Relays and ignoring the laws of physics, I don't think they need to be at tentacles reach to indoctrinate someone.
Again the Derelict Reaper afirmation is something you assume but  it hasn't been adressed in-game.
I would suggest that before posting in a thousand page thread you at least bother reading a bit of the OP, it would prevent yourself from looking like an attention seeker.

Modifié par Home run MF, 17 septembre 2012 - 03:44 .

[masster blaster]

And may I say that the only reason why people are not picking Destroy is because they don't want to kill the Geth, and EDi, and start the cycle all over again. Then what do you think can happen in Control, and Refuse. It can start right all over again.

Also Synthesis won't bring harm any, it can still have war, it is inevitable their will be war, IT is inevitable that people will die. That is why Garrus told Shepard " If we have to kill 2 billion lives to save 3 billion lives, would you do it."

If you don't have the guts to kill The Reapers, then that's fine. But I say this to you .

In Control, why can't Shepard order the Reapers to kill themselves after they rebuild the galaxy. Why is it that When Shepard says the many he doesn't refer to the people of this galaxy. Remember the Reapers are also known as the Many. We are Legion, we are many."

Also in Synthesis, why is everyone acting like the War never happened. It's like they forgot what the Reapers are, and just lost their minds. Did we brain wash the galaxy into thinking that the Reapers are our friends. Yes we did.

Also let me tell you this, you took everyone's free will in SYnthesis, and Control. Everyone has to follow what SHepard says in Control, and In Synthesis everyone has forgotten that the war happened.

In Destroy you can say you are taking the Geth's, and EDi's free will, but are you. No The Geth, and EDi know what is at stake, and would give their lives to stop the Reapers.

IN ME2 everyone signed up to go take the fight to the Collecotrs no matter what the cost was, and that goes for Mordin, Legions,Thane,Kadin, or Ash, and everyone that has given their lives to help stop the Reapers.

Modifié par masster blaster, 17 septembre 2012 - 03:44 .

[spotlessvoid]

" We a re Legion, we are many"

Awesome point MB

[WhiteKnyght]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I thought all indoctrination occurred like it did with Grayson?

Or did the "facts" just change?


Who says the Reapers haven't been trying the slow indoctrination? Slow is subversive. Shepard is not power hungry or weak, so they can't turn him by using his own desires. They've been trying though, and the end is Harbinger's final push after having wormed his way in to Sheps mind. Evidenced by the dreams having all the hallmarks of indoctrination...oily shadows, whispers, reaper horns....

You don't know how to read, do you? A lot of indoctrination facts used
by the theory rely on the codex definition. Noises, ghostly
hallucinations, headaches. I had people trying to bash it into my head
as early as a couple of days ago. Indoctrination comes from reaper tech, the only difference between Grayson and any other indoctrination case is where the tech is. Implanting him and dosing him with red sand was the fastest way to begin the process. What was indoctrinating was the same, the fields and noise were being emitted from the nanites.

Shepard's dreams also have all
the hallmarks of a person haunted by grief/guilt. And the oily shadows,
whispers, and hallucinations are also supposed to happen when you're awake.

Also
with what would they be doing the slow process? Shepard's never within
the close proximity to reaper tech without being shielded or for long
enough for anything to happpen. The only Reaper tech aboard the Normandy
is Sovereign's black box of viruses which EDI used to develop her
cyberwarfare countermeasures(meaning she has the computational
capability to neutralize any dangerous aspects of it), and the Reaper
IFF, which they appropriately scrubbed after the Collectors kidnapped
the crew(meaning it is safe and is actually used the other way around,
to trick the relays into believing the Normandy is itself a Reaper. Which keeps the Normandy from being swarmed unless they start scanning.)

[spotlessvoid]

" . And the oily shadows, whispers, and hallucinations are also supposed to happen when you're awake."

Yeah okay buddy

[paxxton]

I initially didn't want to lose the Mass Relay technology. But after the EC Control has the most oddsome, bad-ass cinematic and music of all.

EDIT: haha

Modifié par paxxton, 17 septembre 2012 - 03:47 .

[masster blaster]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I thought all indoctrination occurred like it did with Grayson?

Or did the "facts" just change?


Who says the Reapers haven't been trying the slow indoctrination? Slow is subversive. Shepard is not power hungry or weak, so they can't turn him by using his own desires. They've been trying though, and the end is Harbinger's final push after having wormed his way in to Sheps mind. Evidenced by the dreams having all the hallmarks of indoctrination...oily shadows, whispers, reaper horns....

You don't know how to read, do you? A lot of indoctrination facts used
by the theory rely on the codex definition. Noises, ghostly
hallucinations, headaches. I had people trying to bash it into my head
as early as a couple of days ago. Indoctrination comes from reaper tech, the only difference between Grayson and any other indoctrination case is where the tech is. Implanting him and dosing him with red sand was the fastest way to begin the process. What was indoctrinating was the same, the fields and noise were being emitted from the nanites.

Shepard's dreams also have all
the hallmarks of a person haunted by grief/guilt. And the oily shadows,
whispers, and hallucinations are also supposed to happen when you're awake.

Also
with what would they be doing the slow process? Shepard's never within
the close proximity to reaper tech without being shielded or for long
enough for anything to happpen. The only Reaper tech aboard the Normandy
is Sovereign's black box of viruses which EDI used to develop her
cyberwarfare countermeasures(meaning she has the computational
capability to neutralize any dangerous aspects of it), and the Reaper
IFF, which they appropriately scrubbed after the Collectors kidnapped
the crew(meaning it is safe and is actually used the other way around,
to trick the relays into believing the Normandy is itself a Reaper. Which keeps the Normandy from being swarmed unless they start scanning.)

I will say this again DO you know WHAT Indoctrinations looks like?

No we can only hear what the effects are, but can we see it with our own eyes. Do we know what the hell people go through to become Indoctrinated. NO.

[spotlessvoid]

" Reaper IFF, which they appropriately scrubbed"

New improved scrubbing bubbles leave no Reaper residue behind!

[Andromidius]

spotlessvoid wrote...

" . And the oily shadows, whispers, and hallucinations are also supposed to happen when you're awake."

Yeah okay buddy

Also, they did.  So...  Yeah.

Not even sure what's being argued anymore.  I'm just confused.  People are just quoting the codex at this stage.

[spotlessvoid]

" Shepard's never within the close proximity to reaper tech without being shielded"

Like in Arrival?