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[spotlessvoid]

Andromidius wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

" . And the oily shadows, whispers, and hallucinations are also supposed to happen when you're awake."

Yeah okay buddy

Also, they did.  So...  Yeah.

Not even sure what's being argued anymore.  I'm just confused.  People are just quoting the codex at this stage.

gray is enlightening us on his vast collection of facts.

[masster blaster]

Also is it just me, or were the Geth on Noviria in the same position, as Shepard is at the end of ME3. I mean when they are on all fours around the altar to the reapers, so does that mean viewing the Reaper it's self with super sticius awe,

[WhiteKnyght]

Home run MF wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

Grayson was  more of a Husk than human, the Reapers have diferent levels of indoctrination. Benezia and Saren were indoctrinated and didn't have visible Reaper tech (not for the entire game in Saren's case) if you are useful to them because you're in a position of power they are not gonna pump nanites inside you and modify your appereance because your function as a sleeper agent would be rendered useless.
Also we are not saying he is indoctrinated during the game, we're saying the decision chamber is the final click in Shepard's mind, depending on your choice you align yourself with the Reapers logic and become indoctrinated. Like Saren and TIM already did.

Leviathan added a tidbit to the lore that shields can block those fields. When they showed that the fragment of Sovereign was shielded. Shepard has shields up most of the game.

Shepard only gets headaches a couple of times throughout the whole series and they have other causes. The humming noise he only hears in the shuttle bay, which is right below the engine room. Different from the ringing and buzzing he would have to be hearing inside of his head(my Dad had a head trauma last year, he still has ringing in his ears from it and gets frequent headaches.)

The only time Shepard heard a voices was when he was around Object Rho, but given the pulses it made when he heard them, it's plausible that the sound was coming from the Object itself. Not to mention Arrival can be skipped entirely, eliminating Shepard's exposure at that point. But it changes no events other than losing 50 points of war assets.


To say that the ending itself was an indoctrination attempt, it would have to be rapid indoctrination. Because Shepard has been established as clean of Indoc as recent as Thessia and Chronos station. And during the push to the beam, Shepard is at great range away from Harbinger(thing is probably at least two miles away going by its size and shown distance)

There's arguably not enough time between being blasted and making the final choice for the slow, patient version. Shepard spent more time aboard the Derelict Reaper and came out clean.

First of all you don't need to quote the entire wiki. 
You are assuming that the shield we see in Dr Bryson's lab is the same as a combat shield.
If I recall correctly Shepard spent most of ME 2 hearing Harbinger.
The Prothean VI is not a viable source for discarting someone from being indoctrinated. (As someone already pointed out to you).
As a race of ancient machines capable of building the Relays and ignoring the laws of physics, I don't think they need to be at tentacles reach to indoctrinate someone.
Again the Derelict Reaper afirmation is something you assume but  it hasn't been adressed in-game.
I would sugest that before posting in a thousand page thread you atleast bother reading a bit of the OP, it would prevent yourself from looking like an attention seeker.

The shield around sovereign appeared to be the same type of field used by conventional sources. A special shield was requried for Leviathan's artifact, according to the DLC itself.

Doesn't Shepard only hear Harbinger when he's fighting the possessed collectors? That means the thrall is speaking, it's not in Shepard's mind. In the Viper Nebula, the Reapers were close enough for Harbinger to project his likeness the same way Sovereign did in ME1.

Also I'd like to point out that some people are capable of being immune to indoctrination entirely. Case in point, Randall Ezno. A cerberus soldier outfitted with Reaper tech implants which were meant to indoctrinate him. But they didn't.

[GethPrimeMKII]

spotlessvoid wrote...

" Shepard's never within the close proximity to reaper tech without being shielded"

Like in Arrival?

Object Rho was just a sweet laser show. No indoctrination there. 

[masster blaster]

spotlessvoid wrote...

" We a re Legion, we are many"

Awesome point MB

Yes and EDi is the one that also gave Legion his name. " My name is Legion, for we are many." Also Old dead Reaper from ME1 said this as well. We are legion, we are Many.

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

" Shepard's never within the close proximity to reaper tech without being shielded"

Like in Arrival?

He meant Skin-Deep Shielding, the newest product from Kassa Fabrication.

Modifié par paxxton, 17 septembre 2012 - 04:19 .

[WhiteKnyght]

masster blaster wrote...

Also is it just me, or were the Geth on Noviria in the same position, as Shepard is at the end of ME3. I mean when they are on all fours around the altar to the reapers, so does that mean viewing the Reaper it's self with super sticius awe,

He passed out laying on his front. How else is he supposed to be posed when he wakes up and gets up?

Also that might also just be the devs cutting corners. The same way werewolves in Skyrim have the same animations as the Deathclaws in Fallout.

[masster blaster]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Also is it just me, or were the Geth on Noviria in the same position, as Shepard is at the end of ME3. I mean when they are on all fours around the altar to the reapers, so does that mean viewing the Reaper it's self with super sticius awe,

He passed out laying on his front. How else is he supposed to be posed when he wakes up and gets up?

Also that might also just be the devs cutting corners. The same way werewolves in Skyrim have the same animations as the Deathclaws in Fallout.

Does everything people say about anyting we come up with in this thread, have to say BAD WRITING, LAZY BIOWARE, AND OTHER SH** that is BS.

I am seriuos every single time we find something some one says  " IT"S BAD WRITING, AND MORE BS."

Why don't people say the whole game thing is BS, and life it's self. Honestly that is the only thing people that come in here that want to say IT is dead, and it should just remain a theory say " It's bad writing, and Lazy Bioware, when they have nothing left to say.


ALso when people say it's not far that you can use this since you can't prove it, then HOW the HELl do you expect us to prove it, if you WON'tT let us go into depth with the things we come up with I mean fu**. Most of the time when people say bad writing, and other crap I don't care about say " You can't use what you have because it's all theory, and nothing more.

Fu** it I am going to bed. See you all next Friday everyone.

Modifié par masster blaster, 17 septembre 2012 - 04:01 .

[Bill Casey]

He wasn't laying on his front in Leviathan...
He was on his hands and knees being approached by an apparition of someone being pulled from his memories, but not really...

Just like in the ending...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 17 septembre 2012 - 04:03 .

[spotlessvoid]

I find it hilarious that when you get shot down on one thing you just move on to another without addressing it. Typical

[Andromidius]

Bill Casey wrote...

He wasn't laying on his front in Leviathan...
He was on his hands and knees being approached by an apparition of someone being pulled from his memories, but not really...

Just like in the ending...

Yeah, its as close as we're likely to get to an official admission that they are the same thing.

At the very least 'Starchild' is in Shepard's head.  Whether or not its malicious or not or whether its part of indoctrination, I don't think it can be disputed anymore.

Not that it'll stop certain people.

[spotlessvoid]

Later MB

Anyways, I'm out of nuts and this flamer is obviously still hungry so I'm going to leave too

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 17 septembre 2012 - 04:08 .

[Home run MF]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

First of all you don't need to quote the entire wiki. 
You are assuming that the shield we see in Dr Bryson's lab is the same as a combat shield.
If I recall correctly Shepard spent most of ME 2 hearing Harbinger.
The Prothean VI is not a viable source for discarting someone from being indoctrinated. (As someone already pointed out to you).
As a race of ancient machines capable of building the Relays and ignoring the laws of physics, I don't think they need to be at tentacles reach to indoctrinate someone.
Again the Derelict Reaper afirmation is something you assume but  it hasn't been adressed in-game.
I would sugest that before posting in a thousand page thread you atleast bother reading a bit of the OP, it would prevent yourself from looking like an attention seeker.

The shield around sovereign appeared to be the same type of field used by conventional sources. A special shield was requried for Leviathan's artifact, according to the DLC itself.

Doesn't Shepard only hear Harbinger when he's fighting the possessed collectors? That means the thrall is speaking, it's not in Shepard's mind. In the Viper Nebula, the Reapers were close enough for Harbinger to project his likeness the same way Sovereign did in ME1.

Also I'd like to point out that some people are capable of being immune to indoctrination entirely. Case in point, Randall Ezno. A cerberus soldier outfitted with Reaper tech implants which were meant to indoctrinate him. But they didn't.

Appeared is not a word I would use when I try to state something as a fact.
I don't see Shepard running around the battlefield with all that paraphernalia that surrounds Sovereign leftovers in the lab.
About Harbinger you forget something, this is the Codex description about Object Rho:

"The third discovery is that the object broadcasts signals and information on many different spectra. One such pulse, suspected to be similar to a quantum entanglement communicator, reaches into Reaper territory. Another broadcast is infrasound, consistent with frequencies that trigger feelings of awe and fear in humans, a known factor in Reaper indoctrination." 

If Harbinger uses the same method to take control of Kenson and the Collectors (as you said) then I'm afraid Shepard is at Reapers hands just like in Arrival.

Modifié par Home run MF, 17 septembre 2012 - 04:21 .

[WhiteKnyght]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I find it hilarious that when you get shot down on one thing you just move on to another without addressing it. Typical

So far all I see are you guys twisting facts, jumping to conclusions that anything (not)odd looking is automatically reaper possession(Shepard is human, humans dream, get stressed, worry about people they care about, etc) and answering any attempt to speak from another viewpoint with denial and personal attacks. Rather than looking for good arguments.

The strongest argument I can think of against IT is that there it has no place in the plot, at all. If the idea were true, it makes a bigger farce of 90 hours of gameplay and seven years of player commitment than people say the endings do. It leaves the game entirely un-concluded and is based on what Padok Wiks would call "intuition." But I guess that makes people hopeful for an ending remake or a Mass Effect 4, if it ever happens.

Indoctrination Theory is just that. Theory. If you really believed it was truth, you'd use a different title.

Me? I'll keep thinking of Shepard as a human character(not meant in the species sense, but in the sense that they made him into a deep character rather than a bland mary-sue) And take the game series which is based on fact and not some puzzle or conspiracy, at face value. You guys go on believing your theory, but when ME3 development wraps up, I sincerely doubt you'll get what you want.

PS. I actually liked Drew Karpyshyn's dark energy ending idea better than the Organic vs Synthetic idea. Makes the story a lot deeper and darker. And makes the final choice a lot more difficult.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 17 septembre 2012 - 04:16 .

[BleedingUranium]

I would like to remind everyone that Chris Priestly recently said that IT is as valid as the literal interpretation. "As valid." Those were the words he used, and they can only be interpreted one way.

That means, as far as BW is officially saying right now, they are on the same level of correctness.

[BleedingUranium]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I find it hilarious that when you get shot down on one thing you just move on to another without addressing it. Typical

So far all I see are you guys twisting facts, jumping to conclusions that anything (not)odd looking is automatically reaper possession(Shepard is human, humans dream, get stressed, worry about people they care about, etc) and answering any attempt to speak from another viewpoint with denial and personal attacks. Rather than looking for good arguments.

The strongest argument I can think of against IT is that there it has no place in the plot, at all. If the idea were true, it makes a bigger farce of 90 hours of gameplay and seven years of player commitment than people say the endings do. It leaves the game entirely un-concluded and is based on what Padok Wiks would call "intuition." But I guess that makes people hopeful for an ending remake or a Mass Effect 4, if it ever happens.

Indoctrination Theory is just that. Theory. If you really believed it was truth, you'd use a different title.

Me? I'll keep thinking of Shepard as a human character(not meant in the species sense, but in the sense that they made him into a deep character rather than a bland mary-sue) And take the game series which is based on fact and not some puzzle or conspiracy, at face value. You guys go on believing your theory, but when ME3 development wraps up, I sincerely doubt you'll get what you want.

PS. I actually liked Drew Karpyshyn's dark energy ending idea better than the Organic vs Synthetic idea. Makes the story a lot deeper and darker. And makes the final choice a lot more difficult.

You really need to learn what "Theory" means. Yes, IT is a theory. Just like gravity and evolution are "just theories"

Whether the game ends or not is irrelevant to whether IT is correct or not. IT can still be true with no ending, those are two seperate issues.

[spotlessvoid]

Lol literal is just as much theory as IT. The rest of your post makes no damn sense. And I'm not making fun of you because I don't have answers. I'm doing it because you're a pretentious tool who has no idea what he is talking about yet acts like he has all the answers. I don't like anything about you and your condescending attitude will continue to be met with mockery. Come to terms with it

And I dont "believe" IT like you believe literal. I'vealready told you this. We are speculating about what we think Bioware may have intended. It's You who acts like your opinion on it is absolute truth

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 17 septembre 2012 - 04:33 .

[plfranke]

Spotless, this is a waste of time. He has said it himself, the strongest argument he can come up with is that indoctrination has no place in the plot at all. Indoctrination, the theme of Leviathan. Indoctrination, the driving force behind the Cerberus plotline. What do you consider having a place in the plot, a magic elevator taking you to see a holographic kid that has the power to destroy, control, and synthesize entire species at the drop of a hat? If that's your strongest argument I don't wanna see your weak ones. However, I did. They're written all over the last few pages.

Very few times in life have I ever actually regretted time spent on something, reading your posts has been one of those times.

[GethPrimeMKII]

IT and Literal interpretation might be equally as valid, but if you ask me its the literal theory that people ought to be challenging. It simply leaves way too many massive plot holes and inconsistencies out there.

[BleedingUranium]

plfranke wrote...

Spotless, this is a waste of time. He has said it himself, the strongest argument he can come up with is that indoctrination has no place in the plot at all. Indoctrination, the theme of Leviathan. Indoctrination, the driving force behind the Cerberus plotline. What do you consider having a place in the plot, a magic elevator taking you to see a holographic kid that has the power to destroy, control, and synthesize entire species at the drop of a hat? If that's your strongest argument I don't wanna see your weak ones. However, I did. They're written all over the last few pages.

Very few times in life have I ever actually regretted time spent on something, reading your posts has been one of those times.

Considering the only enemies you ever fight are either criminals or indoctrinated, I'd say it's pretty important  Hell, in ME3 every enemy you fight is indoctrinated, even in MP!

[BleedingUranium]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

IT and Literal interpretation might be equally as valid, but if you ask me its the literal theory that people ought to be challenging. It simply leaves way too many massive plot holes and inconsistencies out there.

I agree, my point was more that we are officially on an even playing field, they can't say IT isn't valid or whatever.

[Andromidius]

Best way to strength a theory or argument is to fully explorer the alternative viewpoints.

I've tried to rationalise a literal interpretation. Problem is, it just doesn't work without at least some degree of mental manipulation being involved. At the very least, 'The Catalyst' looking like a child from Shepard's memories and dreams has to imply the Catalyst is a mind reader (or a mind projector). And once you've got the main villian rooting around inside the hero's brain, things rapidly go downhill in regards to trusting said villian.

[spotlessvoid]

plfranke wrote...

Spotless, this is a waste of time. He has said it himself, the strongest argument he can come up with is that indoctrination has no place in the plot at all. Indoctrination, the theme of Leviathan. Indoctrination, the driving force behind the Cerberus plotline. What do you consider having a place in the plot, a magic elevator taking you to see a holographic kid that has the power to destroy, control, and synthesize entire species at the drop of a hat? If that's your strongest argument I don't wanna see your weak ones. However, I did. They're written all over the last few pages.

Very few times in life have I ever actually regretted time spent on something, reading your posts has been one of those times.

You are right. Logging off now.

[GethPrimeMKII]

Andromidius wrote...

Best way to strength a theory or argument is to fully explorer the alternative viewpoints.

I've tried to rationalise a literal interpretation. Problem is, it just doesn't work without at least some degree of mental manipulation being involved. At the very least, 'The Catalyst' looking like a child from Shepard's memories and dreams has to imply the Catalyst is a mind reader (or a mind projector). And once you've got the main villian rooting around inside the hero's brain, things rapidly go downhill in regards to trusting said villian.

I tried to rationalize the literal interpretation and it hurt my head. Thats the nicest way I can put it. It completely unravels and destroys the trilogy.