Aller au contenu

Photo

Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


  • Ce sujet est fermé Ce sujet est fermé
80611 réponses à ce sujet

#22876
BleedingUranium

BleedingUranium
  • Members
  • 6 118 messages

Iconoclaste wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

I'm not sure I follow. Most of the point of IT is that it fits the lore. Choosing Control or Synthesis breaks it, literal or not. Literal or not, you're siding with the antangonists and making the trilogy pointless.

The lore does not apply after the Crucible has docked, because it  changes what "Control" and "Synthesis" would have been in the past. Those are now "new" solutions, and the Reapers are not enemies anymore, at face value. The machine has been fixed. Peace.

That's still lore and theme breaking. Especially theme.



Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Happy Birthday Posted Image

Thanks! Posted Image

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 septembre 2012 - 07:13 .


#22877
Raistlin Majare 1992

Raistlin Majare 1992
  • Members
  • 2 101 messages

Iconoclaste wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

I'm not sure I follow. Most of the point of IT is that it fits the lore. Choosing Control or Synthesis breaks it, literal or not. Literal or not, you're siding with the antangonists and making the trilogy pointless.

The lore does not apply after the Crucible has docked, because it  changes what "Control" and "Synthesis" would have been in the past. Those are now "new" solutions, and the Reapers are not enemies anymore, at face value. The machine has been fixed. Peace. Happiness. Security.


I do not agree.

We have still established multiple times that trying to Control someone is wrong. The Protheans, the Salarians and the Krogans, Cerberus and just about all their experiments ever, the Geth Heretic rewrite...hell the Quarian/Geth conflict is spawned from the Quarians attempt to control the Geth.

Synthesis is the same. It removes diversity, but we have always been told diversity is good. Javik specifically mentions how the Protheans fell very fast against the Reapers because they had one set of strategies which the Reapers quikly learned as opposed to the variety of strategies used by the current cycle. Shepard also gathers a fleet of every species out there in ME3 and the interactions and problems between different species is a major part of the series.

Every case of Synthesis or implied Synthesis before that has also ended in horrible monsters. Collectors, Reaper Forces...the Reapers themselves who refer to themselves as the pinnacle of evolution. To quote Garrus: "The Reapers are just one big nightmare factory."

These themes and instances dont just vanish just because an AI tells us so. They were still important parts of the games and cannot simply be thrown out the window...if we do that then it is indeed bad writing.

#22878
Iconoclaste

Iconoclaste
  • Members
  • 1 469 messages

BleedingUranium wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

The lore does not apply after the Crucible has docked, because it  changes what "Control" and "Synthesis" would have been in the past. Those are now "new" solutions, and the Reapers are not enemies anymore, at face value. The machine has been fixed. Peace.

That's still lore and theme breaking. Especially theme.


Granted the endings brought a lot in the last minutes, but that's what we've been given!


Happy birthday.

#22879
RavenEyry

RavenEyry
  • Members
  • 4 394 messages
What's this? Saren wanted bad synthesis but the crucible gives good synthesis? And people say we're reaching.

#22880
BleedingUranium

BleedingUranium
  • Members
  • 6 118 messages

Iconoclaste wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

The lore does not apply after the Crucible has docked, because it  changes what "Control" and "Synthesis" would have been in the past. Those are now "new" solutions, and the Reapers are not enemies anymore, at face value. The machine has been fixed. Peace.

That's still lore and theme breaking. Especially theme.


Granted the endings brought a lot in the last minutes, but that's what we've been given!


Happy birthday.




Thanks Posted Image

It's that, the only person who tells you that is the leader of the Reapers/the Reapers themselves. He says he's the collective intelligence of all Reapers, which means he is either their leader, or is all of them, like the Geth.

*Various spoilers ahead*

This would be like, when you confront Truth in Halo 3, and he repeats that activating the Halos would "transcend" everyone into becoming gods, you could choose to be like "Oh, I get it now, that sounds like a good idea" and then choose to activate all the Halo rings.
Or Batman agreeing at the end of Batman begins that Gotham really is beyond saving, because Ducard said so, and lets the train get to the tower and vaporized all the water.
Or Frodo is told by a vision of Sauron that he could control the Ring's power, and chooses to keep it (Well, that kinda happens).
Or Luke agrees that the Dark Side is better, because the Emperor and Vader told him so, and sides with them. We know how that turned out *cough* Anakin *cough*

Applying the logic of "The antagonist told me what he's doing is right/true, so I should choose his goals" to any other story makes it seem completely ridiculous, no?

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 septembre 2012 - 07:39 .


#22881
RavenEyry

RavenEyry
  • Members
  • 4 394 messages

BleedingUranium wrote...

Or Frodo is told by a vision of Sauron that he could control the Ring's power, and chooses to keep it (Well, that kinda happens).

And it was the wrong choice I recall. It was just the ring defending itself.

#22882
BleedingUranium

BleedingUranium
  • Members
  • 6 118 messages

RavenEyry wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Or Frodo is told by a vision of Sauron that he could control the Ring's power, and chooses to keep it (Well, that kinda happens).

And it was the wrong choice I recall. It was just the ring defending itself.


Yeah, the Sauron vision I made up, to be like the kid. If anyone ever needs an example of what Reaper indoctrination is like, the One Ring is perfect.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 septembre 2012 - 07:41 .


#22883
Iconoclaste

Iconoclaste
  • Members
  • 1 469 messages

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I do not agree.

We have still established multiple times that trying to Control someone is wrong. The Protheans, the Salarians and the Krogans, Cerberus and just about all their experiments ever, the Geth Heretic rewrite...hell the Quarian/Geth conflict is spawned from the Quarians attempt to control the Geth.

Synthesis is the same. It removes diversity, but we have always been told diversity is good. Javik specifically mentions how the Protheans fell very fast against the Reapers because they had one set of strategies which the Reapers quikly learned as opposed to the variety of strategies used by the current cycle. Shepard also gathers a fleet of every species out there in ME3 and the interactions and problems between different species is a major part of the series.

Every case of Synthesis or implied Synthesis before that has also ended in horrible monsters. Collectors, Reaper Forces...the Reapers themselves who refer to themselves as the pinnacle of evolution. To quote Garrus: "The Reapers are just one big nightmare factory."

These themes and instances dont just vanish just because an AI tells us so. They were still important parts of the games and cannot simply be thrown out the window...if we do that then it is indeed bad writing.

The Quarians did not attempt to control the Geth, they tried to destroy them. If the Reapers are willingfully giving control to Shepard, they surely know what they are doing! Is the player comforted by the Catalyst's explanations? For many, it was ok, so I suppose Control is not "bad" if taken into account all the ranting related to the relays being destroyed in the other endings, having the allies stranded in the Sol system, slowly dying from starvation.

Synthesis did not remove diversity, it gave common grounds to everyone, it allowed for more "compatibility" between all species. They all looked different just like they were before, but with added "common characteristics" that erased some antagonizing needs. This is utopia, and some players really liked the idea, while some others didn't.

Bioware succeeded in giving the player a hard time to decide, and this is surely not because of  "bad writing". Having the player doubt in a crucial moment, while the allied forces are still getting wiped out, that's all part of the game. Of course the players felt the Catalyst was absolutely insensitive regarding the fate of organics, it's also obvious the Catalyst is the one who pulls the strings, leaving only a glimpse of decision upon Shepard-player, but there would be no suspense in the final act without such elements. You can't say that the "lore" still applies when everything proposed is brand new, and of course it's breaking the lore! But that is what the player has to face, alone, with no more clues than what the glowing boy says. Is it a nice twist of events to throw at players at the very end of a game? Not the best. Does that invalidate the content? No.

I'm not confusing my desire for "another type of ending" with my desire to fully understand the actual endings. They both exist, but in different parts of my mind. I can abstract from my "deception" related to my experience to try to understand the meaning of each of the choices offered, wether or not I would have chosen them. This is the "objective" action of really trying to  "understand Bioware's work", and it helps me appreciate other's opinions.

#22884
BleedingUranium

BleedingUranium
  • Members
  • 6 118 messages

Iconoclaste wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I do not agree.

We have still established multiple times that trying to Control someone is wrong. The Protheans, the Salarians and the Krogans, Cerberus and just about all their experiments ever, the Geth Heretic rewrite...hell the Quarian/Geth conflict is spawned from the Quarians attempt to control the Geth.

Synthesis is the same. It removes diversity, but we have always been told diversity is good. Javik specifically mentions how the Protheans fell very fast against the Reapers because they had one set of strategies which the Reapers quikly learned as opposed to the variety of strategies used by the current cycle. Shepard also gathers a fleet of every species out there in ME3 and the interactions and problems between different species is a major part of the series.

Every case of Synthesis or implied Synthesis before that has also ended in horrible monsters. Collectors, Reaper Forces...the Reapers themselves who refer to themselves as the pinnacle of evolution. To quote Garrus: "The Reapers are just one big nightmare factory."

These themes and instances dont just vanish just because an AI tells us so. They were still important parts of the games and cannot simply be thrown out the window...if we do that then it is indeed bad writing.

The Quarians did not attempt to control the Geth, they tried to destroy them.


What? They made them as slaves, "Geth" means "servant of the people". The Geth "rebelling", if you can even call it that, would be like black slaves in the US rebelling a couple hundred years ago. They were controlled, and rebelled, as any sapiant being would. The fact that they are synthetic, despite what the leader of the Reapers tells you, is fairly irrelevant.

As for the rest, it all comes down to you believing what the leader of the Reapers is telling you.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 septembre 2012 - 08:07 .


#22885
Iconoclaste

Iconoclaste
  • Members
  • 1 469 messages

BleedingUranium wrote...

What? They made them as slaves, "Geth" means "servant of the people". The Geth "rebelling", if you can even call it that, would be like black slaves in the US rebelling a couple hundred years ago. They were controlled, and rebelled, as any sapiant being would. The fact that they are synthetic, despite what the leader of the Reapers tells you, is fairly irrelevant.

As for the rest, it all comes down to you believing what the leader of the Reapers is telling you.

I don't believe in sapient robots, so no need to get furious upon this subject, ok? I would happily destroy the Geth if I wasn't losing EMS points as a consequence. It's a videogame, not human history.

Have a nice birthday, I'll get some sleep now, it's 4:00 in the morning here. Stay calm.

#22886
RavenEyry

RavenEyry
  • Members
  • 4 394 messages
"Robots aren't people so I can kill them all I want, now I'm leaving, ta ta!" What a great exit.

#22887
Iconoclaste

Iconoclaste
  • Members
  • 1 469 messages

RavenEyry wrote...

"Robots aren't people so I can kill them all I want, now I'm leaving, ta ta!" What a great exit.

Are you seriously going that way? How old are you, just for fun?

#22888
Raistlin Majare 1992

Raistlin Majare 1992
  • Members
  • 2 101 messages

Iconoclaste wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

What? They made them as slaves, "Geth" means "servant of the people". The Geth "rebelling", if you can even call it that, would be like black slaves in the US rebelling a couple hundred years ago. They were controlled, and rebelled, as any sapiant being would. The fact that they are synthetic, despite what the leader of the Reapers tells you, is fairly irrelevant.

As for the rest, it all comes down to you believing what the leader of the Reapers is telling you.

I don't believe in sapient robots, so no need to get furious upon this subject, ok? I would happily destroy the Geth if I wasn't losing EMS points as a consequence. It's a videogame, not human history.

Have a nice birthday, I'll get some sleep now, it's 4:00 in the morning here. Stay calm.


...

Let me get this straight. You are the one arguing that the endings should be taken at face value...

...while at the same time you dont believe in sapient robots despite it what we are specifically shown in the Geth and especially EDI?

No comment.

#22889
BleedingUranium

BleedingUranium
  • Members
  • 6 118 messages

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

What? They made them as slaves, "Geth" means "servant of the people". The Geth "rebelling", if you can even call it that, would be like black slaves in the US rebelling a couple hundred years ago. They were controlled, and rebelled, as any sapiant being would. The fact that they are synthetic, despite what the leader of the Reapers tells you, is fairly irrelevant.

As for the rest, it all comes down to you believing what the leader of the Reapers is telling you.

I don't believe in sapient robots, so no need to get furious upon this subject, ok? I would happily destroy the Geth if I wasn't losing EMS points as a consequence. It's a videogame, not human history.

Have a nice birthday, I'll get some sleep now, it's 4:00 in the morning here. Stay calm.


...

Let me get this straight. You are the one arguing that the endings should be taken at face value...

...while at the same time you dont believe in sapient robots despite it what we are specifically shown in the Geth and especially EDI?

No comment.


...Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

I don't believe in magic, but I don't read/watch a work of fiction that involves magic and be all like "I don't believe in magic, so it doesn't exist in this universe"

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 septembre 2012 - 08:39 .


#22890
Iconoclaste

Iconoclaste
  • Members
  • 1 469 messages

BleedingUranium wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

What? They made them as slaves, "Geth" means "servant of the people". The Geth "rebelling", if you can even call it that, would be like black slaves in the US rebelling a couple hundred years ago. They were controlled, and rebelled, as any sapiant being would. The fact that they are synthetic, despite what the leader of the Reapers tells you, is fairly irrelevant.

As for the rest, it all comes down to you believing what the leader of the Reapers is telling you.

I don't believe in sapient robots, so no need to get furious upon this subject, ok? I would happily destroy the Geth if I wasn't losing EMS points as a consequence. It's a videogame, not human history.

Have a nice birthday, I'll get some sleep now, it's 4:00 in the morning here. Stay calm.


...

Let me get this straight. You are the one arguing that the endings should be taken at face value...

...while at the same time you dont believe in sapient robots despite it what we are specifically shown in the Geth and especially EDI?

No comment.


...Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

I don't believe in magic, but I don't read/watch a work of fiction that involves magic and be all like "I don't believe in magic, so it doesn't exist in this universe"

I think this thread is infested at night with kids lacking sense of responsibilities hilariously exhibiting their virtual cowardice. I east three like you for breakfast. Frankly, I think this whole IT thing is sick in the head. Happy?

By the way I see you trying to get a fight, I suppose you coward away from confrontation in real life, don't you? If this is the way you want things to be, juniors, I'll fill you in : leave this game for a while before you become even more lost in its complexity. If you think IT is sooo deeep that only a few "enlightened" may comprehend all its subtleties, just look how easily any opponent comes here and throws you off your poney.

In a few hours from now, another Troll will come in and laugh in your faces, and you'll start crying all over the place once again. You will once again complain that people come here to insult you with no reason, you poor little pure things only having kiddy debate about bad ending being just a nightmare, papa Bioware will fix all for you, just wait and see.

Maybe I should change my approach and start treating you like you really deserve...

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 septembre 2012 - 09:03 .


#22891
RavenEyry

RavenEyry
  • Members
  • 4 394 messages
Calling others childish for no reason is extremely childish.

#22892
Iconoclaste

Iconoclaste
  • Members
  • 1 469 messages

RavenEyry wrote...

Calling others childish for no reason is extremely childish.

Hey! The chicken is back! So, how old are you?

The chicken ran away.

Don't mind me laughing at you, it's just too funny. I like cracked pots, even immature ones.

Good night, don't think too much.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 septembre 2012 - 09:10 .


#22893
RavenEyry

RavenEyry
  • Members
  • 4 394 messages
How am I a chicken? You seem to be spewing random insults and it really doesn't make you look good.

#22894
Iconoclaste

Iconoclaste
  • Members
  • 1 469 messages

RavenEyry wrote...

How am I a chicken? You seem to be spewing random insults and it really doesn't make you look good.

You simply don't belong here, you're not just a chicken, you're a parrot. You hurt this thread. And you're boringly predictable.

Get an opinion of your own and a beer if you want to feel manly. If I keep you long enough in here, Trolls will happily jump on your feathery robotmania.

I'm not here to "look good". Are you? I'll give you a tip : get outside, and try to "look good", then come back here to tell the tale. Deal?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 septembre 2012 - 09:17 .


#22895
RavenEyry

RavenEyry
  • Members
  • 4 394 messages
I hurt this thread by asking why the person who got very upset at off topic discussion once has made several posts insulting people for no reason?

#22896
byne

byne
  • Members
  • 7 813 messages
He's not a chicken or a parrot. He's clearly a raven.

I'm going back to sleep.

#22897
Iconoclaste

Iconoclaste
  • Members
  • 1 469 messages

RavenEyry wrote...

I hurt this thread by asking why the person who got very upset at off topic discussion once has made several posts insulting people for no reason?

You hurt this thread because you have nothing to contribute to it but nonsensical borrowed opinion and second-hand evidence already found by others. You don't even have the luxury of making a comprehensive post about what is happening between your ears regarding IT, but you bravely lick boots to stay in the run. Trolls like this kind of intelligent and mature "speculation" and will not miss the opportunity to have your face turn red with a few well-placed words.

You are not helping you fellow ITers, but even that is too hard for you to grasp by yourself, you need to have it explained! It's incredible! Keep it up, kid!

Off to bed.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 septembre 2012 - 09:25 .


#22898
RavenEyry

RavenEyry
  • Members
  • 4 394 messages
I haven't written an essay this morning so that justifies multiple attacks on me?

#22899
Iconoclaste

Iconoclaste
  • Members
  • 1 469 messages

RavenEyry wrote...

I haven't written an essay this morning so that justifies multiple attacks on me?

Now, don't start crying, ok? You begged for it, and not just today. Damn, you're Trolling your own thread, turkey! :o

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 septembre 2012 - 09:29 .


#22900
byne

byne
  • Members
  • 7 813 messages
Iconoclaste, I thought you were going to bed?

I mean, I said I was too and haven't yet, but you said it like an hour ago.

Also, you misspelled pony, but I shan't tell you where. The fun is in finding it and correcting it on your own!

I'm actually going to bed now though.