80611 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenEyry]

I assure you any tears will be from laughter.

[Iconoclaste]

byne wrote...

Iconoclaste, I thought you were going to bed?

I mean, I said I was too and haven't yet, but you said it like an hour ago.

Also, you misspelled pony, but I shan't tell you where. The fun is in finding it and correcting it on your own!

I'm actually going to bed now though.

Right. Sleep is better than this, he's not even enjoying it...

Bye

[Restrider]

RavenEyry wrote...

What's this? Saren wanted bad synthesis but the crucible gives good synthesis? And people say we're reaching.

You could also add, TIM wanted bad control and Shepard is responsible for good control (ie the first was not truly in control of the situation, but the other will be?).

[gunslinger_ruiz]

So no that we're done with that mess; was  there anything from Bioware on that teaser pic posted yesterday? From Montreal I think it was.

[ElSuperGecko]

There's so much I agree with about the indoctrination theory, so much that it reads into the hints, clues and various plot elements hidden throughout the game that resonate with me, that make sense.

But I can't quite believe that the ENTIRE end sequence is nothing more than a dream, that Shepard is lying in the rubble in London, having been blasted into unconciousness by Harbinger.

My take on the indoctrination theory is that the events play out on the Crucible, but the choices that the Catalyst offers at the end are, in fact, an "Illusion of Choice".

Harbinger attempted to stop the allied forces from reaching the beam, and accessing the Citadel. The purpose of the Crucible is real; it DOES have the power to end the Reaper threat once and for all. But once you're onboard, the Reapers can do very little to stop you. Except by trying to influence your decisions, and your actions.

Shepard has been in contact with the Reapers for a long time. Sovereign, the inactive Reaper, the Human Reaper, Harbinger, Object Rho... apart from TIM, Shepard is probably the one human who has had the most contact with them. There's also questions regarding the technology Shepard was implanted with, and it's origins.

Throughout ME3 we see (during the dream sequences) Shepard's subconcious giving him a warning. All is not well. He's conflicted, worried and by the time he reaches the Catalyst, on the verge of mental and physical exhaustion. He's a prime target for indoctrination.

So the Catalyst does what the Reapers have always done - first with Saren, then with TIM - attempted, through subtety, through whispers and persuasion, to make Shepard make the wrong decision. To make him (and the player themselves) betray everything he's fighting for, while thinking at the same time that they're doing the right thing.

And this is the key part of the Control/Synthesis/Destroy decision for me.

We're shown repeatedly over the course of the trilogy that "Control" simply does not work. Saren, the Geth and the Quarians. The Thorian. Overlord. TIM's attempt at "Control". And even the Reaper's control over TIM can backfire.

Synthesis is morally wrong. The entire concept of arbitarily changing and modifying all life into a "higher form" is an abomination. A clear-thinking Shepard would know this instantly. Synthesis implies that life - all life - is fundamentally flawed, broken, and needs to be "perfected". At best, it's involuntary eugenics on a galactic scale. At worst, it's husking the galaxy. It's a solution posited by a mass-murdering AI that destroyed it's own creators, believing it to be the right thing to do.

Yet a two minute conversation with the ghost of a child you saw killed (and why would the Catalyst know such a form, unless it can read your mind? And if it can read your mind, why would it take on such a form, unless to play on your emotions, your guilt and fears?) can apparently convince Shepard - and the player - that these are viable, even attractive options. That Shepard can succeed, without risk, where the Illusive Man failed. That Saren was right all along when he raved about the "organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither!" That Hackett, talking about how "Dead Reapers being the way we win this", was dead wrong.

Unable to interact with Shepard physically, the Reapers are making their final play. A last-ditch attempt to sway Shepard's purpose by attacking his mind. He is undergoing indoctrination. Choose anything but Destroy, and they succeed.

[RavenEyry]

Very well put ElSuperGecko, I can see my self accepting the face value ending if it was obviously a trick and you're not supposed to believe Mr. Sparkle and his sudden shift in series themes.

[Restrider]

Iconoclaste wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

What? They made them as slaves, "Geth" means "servant of the people". The Geth "rebelling", if you can even call it that, would be like black slaves in the US rebelling a couple hundred years ago. They were controlled, and rebelled, as any sapiant being would. The fact that they are synthetic, despite what the leader of the Reapers tells you, is fairly irrelevant.

As for the rest, it all comes down to you believing what the leader of the Reapers is telling you.

I don't believe in sapient robots, so no need to get furious upon this subject, ok? I would happily destroy the Geth if I wasn't losing EMS points as a consequence. It's a videogame, not human history.

Have a nice birthday, I'll get some sleep now, it's 4:00 in the morning here. Stay calm.

...

Let me get this straight. You are the one arguing that the endings should be taken at face value...

...while at the same time you dont believe in sapient robots despite it what we are specifically shown in the Geth and especially EDI?

No comment.

...Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

I don't believe in magic, but I don't read/watch a work of fiction that involves magic and be all like "I don't believe in magic, so it doesn't exist in this universe"

I think this thread is infested at night with kids lacking sense of responsibilities hilariously exhibiting their virtual cowardice. I east three like you for breakfast. Frankly, I think this whole IT thing is sick in the head. Happy?

By the way I see you trying to get a fight, I suppose you coward away from confrontation in real life, don't you? If this is the way you want things to be, juniors, I'll fill you in : leave this game for a while before you become even more lost in its complexity. If you think IT is sooo deeep that only a few "enlightened" may comprehend all its subtleties, just look how easily any opponent comes here and throws you off your poney.

In a few hours from now, another Troll will come in and laugh in your faces, and you'll start crying all over the place once again. You will once again complain that people come here to insult you with no reason, you poor little pure things only having kiddy debate about bad ending being just a nightmare, papa Bioware will fix all for you, just wait and see.

Maybe I should change my approach and start treating you like you really deserve...

Seriously, I was just catching up, and the posts were polite and reasonable. Your opinion on synthetic life/robots is debatable and it would require a whole new thread to discuss what life actually is. But this derail to -in fact- trolling and personal insults did just come out of nowhere.

I assume everyone has a f**ck-up some time, so I'll just pretend it was exactly that.

Modifié par Restrider, 17 septembre 2012 - 09:56 .

[RavenEyry]

It's not actually the first time he's got extremely hostile at anyone of a differing opinion.

[Restrider]

Well, let's hope it is not going to be a constant thing.

@ElSuperGecko
What you are aluding to is more the Walking Nightmare Theory or IT Con. Though these interpretations are strong, I tend more to the IT Dream, just because of the breathe scene. The place resembles a lot London and if it tuns out to be London, the explanation for Shepard to survive the Citadel blast and the return to London would really be interesting to listen to.
But your summary is a good read for anyone who wants to get a short grasp about what IT/WKN really means.
So, now it is time to work.

[ElSuperGecko]

RavenEyry wrote...

Very well put ElSuperGecko, I can see my self accepting the face value ending if it was obviously a trick and you're not supposed to believe Mr. Sparkle and his sudden shift in series themes.

Thanks.  That's how I see it, anyway.  The confrontation with the Catalyst, and the choices you're presented with at the end of the game are incredibly jarring, as you say.  And the previous encounters with the kid have been unsettling.

Shepard watches the kid playing in the courtyard prior to the attack. Playing n the courtyard of a major military installation, with an Alliance starship toy.  Childlike innocence, or a subtle message?  A foreshadowing that the child is playing with the player at the end?

The Reapers attack, and somehow the kid and Shepard's path intersect - by the kid climbing up onto the rooftops, and entering a door clearly marked as "locked".

Shepard encounters the kid hiding in a vent. The kid is calm, however, says something you wouldn't expect a terrified child to say, and vanishes (with a Reaper growl) when Shepard is distracted. There's a warning sign alongside the vent, displaying an arrow penetrating a representation of a human head. (it's in your head?) Anderson doesn't appear to notice or acknowledge the kid at all. Was the kid really there at all?

You quickly make it down to the extraction area - in part due to a collapsing building - only to see, as you're evacuated, the kid in the staging area. With a warning/caution symbol in shot each time. Despite the fact that soldiers are helping in the evacuation, no-one seems to notice the kid. Certainly no-one offers to help him. He has to climb into a shuttle on his own.

Then he's blown to kingdom come.

The dreams that followed, with Shepard chasing the kid, replete with "oily shadows" and "whispering voices" have been passed off as survivor's guilt, stress, fatigue, PTSD, the works. But they're deliberately unsettling, and your teammates grow increasingly concerned for your state of mind, and voice their concerns on multiple occasions.
Then finally, we reach the Citadel, and a projection of the kid is waiting there for us?  Offering impossible choices?  Trying to persuade us to take an action that just feels entirely wrong?

There's too many coincidences for my liking. There's more to the kid's appearances than meets the eye.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 17 septembre 2012 - 10:16 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Dont know if this has been bought up before, but something just struck me.

When Leviathan takes control of Shepards mind and appears as Ann Bryson, Shepard questions her appereance leading to the Leviathan quote about how the images her perceive are plucked from his memory.

But despite Shepard questioning Ann Brysons appereance he never questions the Catalyst taking the shape of the child even though that should be even more...well, questionable. He never acknowledges it or anything despite questioning when Ann Bryson appeared out of nowhere.

What was it again Matriach Benezia said about Indoctrination again: "The longer you stay aboard, the more Sarens will seems correct. You sit at his feet and smile as his words pour into you."

Dident Paul Grayson have a similar experience where he started nodding in regards to what the Reapers were telling him, agreeing without even realizing it. Seem to remember someone quoted that some time ago. 

The point is people stop questioning the Reapers, which is a hallmark of Indoctrination, their will becomes correct in the eyes of its victims. Could Shepard be exibiting a bit of that when he dosent question the kid despite quetioning the person appearing in a similar situation?

[ElSuperGecko]

Restrider wrote...
@ElSuperGecko
What you are aluding to is more the Walking Nightmare Theory or IT Con. Though these interpretations are strong, I tend more to the IT Dream, just because of the breathe scene. The place resembles a lot London and if it tuns out to be London, the explanation for Shepard to survive the Citadel blast and the return to London would really be interesting to listen to.
But your summary is a good read for anyone who wants to get a short grasp about what IT/WKN really means.
So, now it is time to work.

Thanks.  I'll have to look up those topics!

The "breathe" scene is quite interesting, in that it's the hardest part of the ending to achieve in terms of EMS.  That would suggest that the "breathe" scene is some kind of a reward.  And yet only available when you choose the Destroy option.

The rubble is interesting too.  It could quite easily be Earth/London - same colour palette as the ruins, hints of rebar, hints of Mako.  It could concievably be part of the the Citadel's wreckage as well.  If only we could see a bit more...  :S

[RavenEyry]

The breath scene clearly being in London (to me) is what sadly puts me off all theories about Shepard really going to the citadel, even though there are some really good ones.

[Hrothdane]

RavenEyry wrote...

The breath scene clearly being in London (to me) is what sadly puts me off all theories about Shepard really going to the citadel, even though there are some really good ones.

My feelings as well.

It's also a lot of little things. To paraphrase TIM, the patterns are there, buried in the data.

[Restrider]

RavenEyry wrote...

The breath scene clearly being in London (to me) is what sadly puts me off all theories about Shepard really going to the citadel, even though there are some really good ones.

Exactly that's true for me aswell.

The IT Dream interpretation would be that you break the indoctrination attempt, wake up in London and the war is still not over.
Another thing that has always fizzled IT Con for me is the fact that Starbrat offers you Destroy (if Destroy in IT Con actually results in the destruction of all reapers). Since this would mean that Starbrat risks everything to have the possibilty do gain Shepard as an ally. And that just does not sound reasonable at all, even or especially for the reapers.

[RavenEyry]

Restrider wrote...

Another thing that has always fizzled IT Con for me is the fact that Starbrat offers you Destroy (if Destroy in IT Con actually results in the destruction of all reapers). Since this would mean that Starbrat risks everything to have the possibilty do gain Shepard as an ally. And that just does not sound reasonable at all, even or especially for the reapers.

Yes, offering destroy makes more sense in a mental battle than a physical trick. If I was Mr. Sparkle I'd just kill Shep instead of hoping they fall for my ploy and not kill me.

EDIT: Maybe he just enjoys playing russian roulette with the universe.

Modifié par RavenEyry, 17 septembre 2012 - 11:01 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Restrider wrote...
Another thing that has always fizzled IT Con for me is the fact that Starbrat offers you Destroy (if Destroy in IT Con actually results in the destruction of all reapers). Since this would mean that Starbrat risks everything to have the possibilty do gain Shepard as an ally. And that just does not sound reasonable at all, even or especially for the reapers.

Not entirely true.

The Starbrat doesn't "offer" you Destroy; it acknowledges that you've been looking for the chance to destroy the Reapers. "I know you've thought about destroying us." - it then tries to gloss over this idea, saying that choosing Destroy will result in the destruction of the Geth (and why would the Catalyst care about that?  It is playing on your guilt), EDI, possibly even yourself due to your synthetic implants.  And then it tops it off by saying that Destroy will simply mean that organics will all eventually be wiped out by synthetics, anyway.  It should be remembered that the threat of a technological singularity is certain only by the Catalyst's logic and calculations.  The only evidence we have of synthetics wiping out organic life is - surprise, surprise - the Catalyst's own actions.

Then it talks up Control as a more viable alternative, and Synthesis as the "perfect solution".

Basically, it's significant to me that the Catalyst is not impartial.  It acknowledges your desire to stop the Reapers by destroying them, nixes the idea, and tries to get you to do what it wants instead.  Destroy is the only ending option that the Catalyst tries to dissuade you from.  Control and Synthesis, it actively encourages.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 17 septembre 2012 - 11:20 .

[Restrider]

RavenEyry wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Another thing that has always fizzled IT Con for me is the fact that Starbrat offers you Destroy (if Destroy in IT Con actually results in the destruction of all reapers). Since this would mean that Starbrat risks everything to have the possibilty do gain Shepard as an ally. And that just does not sound reasonable at all, even or especially for the reapers.

Yes, offering destroy makes more sense in a mental battle than a physical trick. If I was Mr. Sparkle I'd just kill Shep instead of hoping they fall for my ploy and not kill me.

EDIT: Maybe he just enjoys playing russian roulette with the universe.

The reasonable assumption would be that either Destroy in reality does nothing. Let's say the tube explodes, Shepard dies in mid/low EMS, and the Crucible does nothing. Starbrat would just shrug his shoulders and say something like... "Well, it did not work out with the two of us."
If the tubes would really cause the total annihilation of all reapers, I would expect Starbrat to shoot/kill/make Shepards head explode, after he is certain that Shepard is approaching the tube to finish the job. But Starbrat obviously does not do that. Maybe we are just wrong to assume that Starbrat follows the principle of self-preservation. On the other hand EDI states earlier that reapers are exactly that.... trying to preserve themselves at any cost.
This behaviour is just bizarre.
If you are not taking everything literal, you might as well see the whole ending as a huge, epic, metaphorical mind-battle. Everything else seems ot me to be half-arsed.

[RavenEyry]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Basically, the Catalyst acknowledges your desire to stop the Reapers by destroying them, nixes the idea, and tries to get you to do what it wants instead.

It still acknowledges it as an option though. It didn't have to raise the platform to the pipe or draw attention to it.

And if it hadn't I doubt Shep would have asked about the red bit because Shep barely argues or thinks in that scene (which is another sign not everythings on the level)

[demersel]

So what is with that teaser pic? (i mean the fact that it is yeased only in a low res phote, when you can't make anything out of the picture - and that is the only source?)

[Restrider]

ElSuperGecko wrote...
Not entirely true.

The Starbrat doesn't "offer" you Destroy; it acknowledges that you've been looking for the chance to destroy the Reapers. "I know you've thought about destroying us." - it then tries to gloss over this idea, saying that choosing Destroy will result in the destruction of the Geth (and why would the Catalyst care about that?  It is playing on your guilt), EDI, possibly even yourself due to your synthetic implants.  And then it tops it off by saying that Destroy will simply mean that organics will all eventually be wiped out by synthetics, anyway.  It should be remembered that the threat of a technological singularity is certain only by the Catalyst's logic and calculations.  The only evidence we have of synthetics wiping out organic life is - surprise, surprise - the Catalyst's own actions.

Then it talks up Control as a more viable alternative, and Synthesis as the "perfect solution".

Basically, the Catalyst acknowledges your desire to stop the Reapers by destroying them, nixes the idea, and tries to get you to do what it wants instead.

If he would not offer Destroy, he would automatically raise suspicions. By disavowing Destroy and offering better solutions he wants to trick you to not choose Destroy. We can agree on that.
What concerns me is the fact that Destroy is not a hoax in IT Con. Starbrat could tell Shepard that he has the possibilty to destroy the reapers by shooting the tubes, but in fact nothing happens. Starbrat would know if either Shepard is ready for indoctrination (Control/Synthesis/(Refusal)) or not (Destroy) by letting him choose freely. If he choses Control/Synthesis/(Refusal) the indoc party starts and Shepard is united with the reapers. If he choses Destroy (which I suppose should be a hoax/mock-up) Starbrat knows that his attempts to indoctrinate Shepard have been in vain, so it is safe to kill Shepard, since he is of no use for the reapers. Starbrat playing roulette seems just too bizarre and convenient for Shepard.


I hope I underlined my stance here comprehensively enough (not saying that anyone is stupid who "does not get it". I am just aware of the fact that convinving others requires a certain amount of communication skills).
Edit: Made it more coherent.

Modifié par Restrider, 17 septembre 2012 - 11:27 .

[ThisOneIsPunny]

demersel wrote...

So what is with that teaser pic? (i mean the fact that it is yeased only in a low res phote, when you can't make anything out of the picture - and that is the only source?)

hold the phone, what teaser pic and where? 

[Restrider]

demersel wrote...

So what is with that teaser pic? (i mean the fact that it is yeased only in a low res phote, when you can't make anything out of the picture - and that is the only source?)

Kind of weird since this is the INTERNETZ. There should be a lot of pictures of varying resolutions fly around this thread. But a day has passed and nothing new was added. Highly suspicious or just weird.
Edit: For the smartasses. I am not implying that this proves IT.

Modifié par Restrider, 17 septembre 2012 - 11:29 .

[demersel]

 this one - the one that vaguely shows the 3d model of a collector ship.



www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/zyeko/next_dlc_teaser_image_from_montreal_comiccon/
my question is why it is only in such a low quality to make anything out? Leviathan teaser pic was hi-def and provided by bioware. 

[demersel]

Restrider wrote...

demersel wrote...

So what is with that teaser pic? (i mean the fact that it is yeased only in a low res phote, when you can't make anything out of the picture - and that is the only source?)

Kind of weird since this is the INTERNETZ. There should be a lot of pictures of varying resolutions fly around this thread. But a day has passed and nothing new was added. Highly suspicious or just weird.
Edit: For the smartasses. I am not implying that this proves IT.

I'm just saying it looks remarkably like bioware saying (Oh, so you like piecing together some crap you found on reddit, and other sources? Ok. Have knock yourselves out.  " 

And that add well with the BSN survey that had the question about where do you prefer to get your Mass Effect News from.