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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#22976
Hrothdane

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Reality is objective, but our perception of it subjective. There's plenty wrong with you too Icon, don't act like your so much better then everyone. We're all in a forum about a 6 month old video game. Let's not start claiming some intellectual superiority because we're all wasting time here. There's a million different ways too seek entertainment and escape from life. This is a perfectly acceptable distraction. I really don't get where you're coming from Icon with this. If you are really trying to enlighten people on the error of their ways, being pretentious and rude isn't going to get them to listen. You might be making some valid points but you're being a jerk about it


Exactly.

"We often refuse to accept an idea merely because the tone of voice in which it has been expressed is unsympathetic to us." --Nietzsche

Modifié par Hrothdane, 17 septembre 2012 - 07:12 .


#22977
Iconoclaste

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Reality is objective, but our perception of it subjective. There's plenty wrong with you too Icon, don't act like your so much better then everyone. We're all in a forum about a 6 month old video game. Let's not start claiming some intellectual superiority because we're all wasting time here. There's a million different ways too seek entertainment and escape from life. This is a perfectly acceptable distraction. I really don't get where you're coming from Icon with this. If you are really trying to enlighten people on the error of their ways, being pretentious and rude isn't going to get them to listen. You might be making some valid points but you're being a jerk about it

You've been on this "temper" for two days now. Do you expect to get back to normality any time soon? Because I've read your tantrums against The Gray Nayr yesterday, and you reacted like he was attacking you personally, insulting him and coming back for more. I surely do not see you "enjoying" anything here now, but I can understand why you could be doing this. If getting into flame wars and complaining afterwards is what you call "entertainment", I wish you luck.

#22978
WhiteKnyght

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Guys...

About 'destroy' being a real option.

I think Leviathan answered this indirectly.

When
Shepard asks how they could build an AI that betrayed them (after
having seen their thrall races being 'betrayed' by AIs), the Leviathan
says:

"You can not conceive of a galaxy that bends to your will."

This
would most certainly apply to the Reapers. From an IT point of view, if
Shepard chooses destroy, she would be the first organic ever to resist
indoctrination. There's no precedent for someone resisting
indoctrination, so the Reapers (in their villainous arrogance) would
never expect Shepard to resist it either. They would expect her to bend
to their will, like TIM and Saren.

The option is there, simply
to not raise suspicion, but the Reapers just don't expect Shepard to
resist succumbing to their will.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for how IT could actually work out with what we have... here is a theory of mine. It's a mix of IT dream and WNT:

-
Shepard is still in London. The first part of the Citadel, is all in
Shep's head. The conversation with TIM/Anderson, all of this happens
while Shep is unconscious on the ground. Shep is experiencing this as a
dream. This would explain why (in the TIM confrontation) Harbinger's
reaper horn can be heard in the background, only it's slowed down
because time goes slower inside a dream, and we hear the reaper horn as a
slow rattle. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, check the link
in my signature). This first part being a dream, would explain why
everything on the citadel looks like things from Shep's past.

-
When Shep arrives in the 'decision chamber' and Starbinger says "Wake
up", that's when Shepard wakes up in London. She's on hands and knees,
still looking at the Reaper beam, the Mako, etc., only Harbinger is
slightly altering how Shep perceives her surroundings. This is why the
decision chamber looks so much like the location of the London beam.

-
If Shep chooses synthesis, she runs over to the beam and becomes
huskified / is processed to become the mind of a human Reaper, the end
product of this cycle's harvest. (This would be fitting if we take into
account that datapad we find on the FOB, right before the run to the
beam, the one that talks about "people going into that place and coming
out not the same any more")

- If Shep chooses control, she walks
over to some Reaper device (perhaps the curvy/Reaperish device we see in
the background during the breath scene) and submits herself to it, and
turns into a Reaper agent.

- If Shep chooses destroy, she walks
over to the right side of the beam and starts shooting at some object
that she perceives as the tube. In reality, she destroys some kind of
vital part of the beam generator, which causes the beam to overload and
send a huge discharge of energy towards the Citadel, where it sets off
the Crucible, which is simply a huge, synthetics-killing bomb. The
destroy ending as we see it play out is actually what happens for real.

- How did the Citadel arms open for the Crucible to dock? Well, this is why Hacket says: "Holy ****, she did it. Someone
made it to the Citadel." Who? David Anderson. And that's why his name
is on the memorial wall in the destroy ending. Anderson did not survive
the explosion on the citadel, but died as a hero.

- Breath scene happens when Shep wakes up in the rubble in London after blowing up the "beam".

No need for further ending DLC in this interpretation.


The beam was a small relay like the conduit on Illos, used for sending material up to be processed. I don't think shooting it would blow up the whole citadel. Also considering it took the blunt force of an asteroid to destroy a Mass Relay, I think the Reapers would make the conduit sturdy enough to resist small gunfire(if it works on the same principle as the mass relays, destroying it would cause a massive explosion down on Earth)

A couple of things that is noteworthy are the variations during and after the encounter with the Catalyst.

1. The Catalysts attitude shifts based on your EMS. At lower EMS, he's pissed that you made it so far and he practically refuses to help you. Wheras when you're higher(when synthesis is avaible,) he's more welcoming and cooperative, as if he's impressed enough by you to reconsider his own stance.

2. The fact that less choices are available depending on you EMS. The lower your EMS, the more damage the Crucible takes before docking, which renders some options impossible. High EMS gives you all three, moderate gives you Destroy and Control only, and low makes only one possible(according to the Prima Strategy guide, your choice at the end of ME2 decides which is available. Arguably because the presence of the Human Reaper Heart or Brain inside the crucible makes the requirements for each specific option lesser than the other.)

To show that I'm not trying to start more drama, I'll play Devil's Advocate for a minute and explain how I believe an illusion ending could work.

1. the push to the beam and the conflict with the Illusive Man do happen.

2. When Shepard passes out, the floor doesn't really lift up and take him into a new chamber. He just passes out from blood loss.

3. He is dreaming when he meets the Catalyst because it reached out and interacted with his mind. Meaning the chamber is like the Geth Server, except he's entered the Reaper's domain, instead of a consensus. Similar also to the mental realm Leviathan nearly trapped Shepard in.

4. Shepard's gestures, such as shooting the pipe, grabbing the electrodes, or jumping into the laser are symbolic, when in reality he's punching in the commands into the console that he used to open the Citadel arms. Which activates the Crucible and does the desired effect.

5. In Control, Shepard's mind stays in the Reaper Consensus and merges with the Catalyst as the ending entails. But his body still dies.

5-2. In Synthesis, Shepard's essence is absorbed remotely, leaving his body drained and dead.

5-3. In Destroy, Sheaprd's mind returns to his body, but he is possibly killed by the fallout of the decision, since the Citadel's condition would arguably be worse the lower EMS is(the Crucible's pulse is more destructive in lower levels), leaving him either without oxygen or crushed to death under large rubble. But surviving if the damage is minimal enough to not severely compromise the room he is un.

5-4. In Refuse, The Catalyst keeps Shepard trapped in the virtual world while his body is taken to be processed and the Crucible destroyed.

6. All later events proceed as normal.

#22979
Arashi08

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"To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty." Lao Tzu

I felt like I didn't make much sense earlier but this quote illustrated what I was trying to say about 11 or so hours ago, not prefectly, but I'm not really a word person lol

Modifié par Arashi08, 17 septembre 2012 - 07:21 .


#22980
Iconoclaste

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The Grey Nayr wrote...
( ... )

This is something I'm really "comfortable" with, and if I remember well, some IT supporters on the 1st thread viewed the endings in a similar fashion.The IT "schisms" did not happen out of the blue! But what you propose doesn't call for the "upcoming Boss Battle" which most ITers remaining here now are hoping for, so you're bound to face the usual denial barrier even if what you propose includes some good part of "indoctrination".

I tried to propose a "solution" for the "All a dream" but I know it will get nowhere, because I believe the "core" of the ITers remaining are still hell-bent on this "final boss battle" that can only happen in hypothetic future DLC or game.

#22981
spotlessvoid

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Iconoclaste wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

You've been on this "temper" for two days now. Do you expect to get back to normality any time soon? Because I've read your tantrums against The Gray Nayr yesterday, and you reacted like he was attacking you personally, insulting him and coming back for more. I surely do not see you "enjoying" anything here now, but I can understand why you could be doing this. If getting into flame wars and complaining afterwards is what you call "entertainment", I wish you luck.



First thing out of Grays mouth was comparing IT to Elvis is alive. The only theory more ridiculous is the moon is made of cheese. That combined with the feel free to believe IT as long as you admit it isn't real is tremendously condescending. Gray was a tool. The guy earned his flaming. I felt like smashing him, repeatedly. I'm not going to entertain "You're all idiots: discuss!" He had no desire to debate in the search for truth. He just came by to point out his superior intellectual prowess and was a ****** about it. So I retaliated. Because I felt like it. Do you find your complaining entertaining? Don't act like I didn't go the pm route with you first. You ignored me and kept on flaming. You are being a hypocrite right now.

#22982
Jusseb

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*grabs popcorn*

#22983
Iconoclaste

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Arashi08 wrote...

"To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty." Lao Tzu

I felt like I didn't make much sense earlier but this quote illustrated what I was trying to say about 11 or so hours ago, not prefectly, but I'm not really a word person lol

There is relative "knowledge" in this world, that renders healthcare, transportation, agriculture, computing and such into reality. The works of philosophers are fun to read, but are often put back in their "theoric context" by the people who actually work their brains out to invent and build the world we live in. Go tell a soldier that what he's doing is "philosophically wrong", and then take a walk in the real world.

#22984
demersel

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Jusseb wrote...

*grabs popcorn*


Hey! Sharing is caring! Give me some!

#22985
Iconoclaste

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spotlessvoid wrote...

First thing out of Grays mouth was comparing IT to Elvis is alive. The only theory more ridiculous is the moon is made of cheese. That combined with the feel free to believe IT as long as you admit it isn't real is tremendously condescending. Gray was a tool. The guy earned his flaming. I felt like smashing him, repeatedly. I'm not going to entertain "You're all idiots: discuss!" He had no desire to debate in the search for truth. He just came by to point out his superior intellectual prowess and was a ****** about it. So I retaliated. Because I felt like it. Do you find your complaining entertaining? Don't act like I didn't go the pm route with you first. You ignored me and kept on flaming. You are being a hypocrite right now.

I'm sorry if you don't understand that for me, discussion on a forum is not "compensation" for other problems. I didn't like the endings, but not to the point of denying respect to others, and not to the point of letting wounded players get on my toes.

#22986
spotlessvoid

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Iconoclaste wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
( ... )

This is something I'm really "comfortable" with, and if I remember well, some IT supporters on the 1st thread viewed the endings in a similar fashion.The IT "schisms" did not happen out of the blue! But what you propose doesn't call for the "upcoming Boss Battle" which most ITers remaining here now are hoping for, so you're bound to face the usual denial barrier even if what you propose includes some good part of "indoctrination".

I tried to propose a "solution" for the "All a dream" but I know it will get nowhere, because I believe the "core" of the ITers remaining are still hell-bent on this "final boss battle" that can only happen in hypothetic future DLC or game.


So what? Theres a WNT and an ITCon thread. This is the ITDream thread. People can support whichever one they want. I understand why you disagree, I just don't understand why you are so hell bent on convincing people. Let it go Icon. This has no effect on real life and it doesnt hurt anyone else. 

#22987
spotlessvoid

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Iconoclaste wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

First thing out of Grays mouth was comparing IT to Elvis is alive. The only theory more ridiculous is the moon is made of cheese. That combined with the feel free to believe IT as long as you admit it isn't real is tremendously condescending. Gray was a tool. The guy earned his flaming. I felt like smashing him, repeatedly. I'm not going to entertain "You're all idiots: discuss!" He had no desire to debate in the search for truth. He just came by to point out his superior intellectual prowess and was a ****** about it. So I retaliated. Because I felt like it. Do you find your complaining entertaining? Don't act like I didn't go the pm route with you first. You ignored me and kept on flaming. You are being a hypocrite right now.

I'm sorry if you don't understand that for me, discussion on a forum is not "compensation" for other problems. I didn't like the endings, but not to the point of denying respect to others, and not to the point of letting wounded players get on my toes.


If you are so above it all go back to the real world and do some good. Its a video game forum, not geopolitics. And everyone is compensating for something. 

#22988
Iconoclaste

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spotlessvoid wrote...

So what? Theres a WNT and an ITCon thread. This is the ITDream thread. People can support whichever one they want. I understand why you disagree, I just don't understand why you are so hell bent on convincing people. Let it go Icon. This has no effect on real life and it doesnt hurt anyone else.

As much as I would like to agree with you, I have to point at the thread's title : "Was the endoing an hallucination?"

Not "a dream". But even without going there, what The Gray Nayr is proposing is, in all respects, a "dream" and not an "hallucinatiuon". Would you say his views don't belong here?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 septembre 2012 - 07:43 .


#22989
Iconoclaste

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spotlessvoid wrote...

If you are so above it all go back to the real world and do some good. Its a video game forum, not geopolitics. And everyone is compensating for something.

Everyone is not compensating here, fortunately.

#22990
smokingotter1

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Restrider wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...


DoomsdayDevice wrote...


- Shepard is still in London. The first part of the Citadel, is all in Shep's head. The conversation with TIM/Anderson, all of this happens while Shep is unconscious on the ground. Shep is experiencing this as a dream. This would explain why (in the TIM confrontation) Harbinger's reaper horn can be heard in the background, only it's slowed down because time goes slower inside a dream, and we hear the reaper horn as a slow rattle. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, check the link in my signature). This first part being a dream, would explain why everything on the citadel looks like things from Shep's past.





The Anderson / TIM confrontation is a dream.

So what would happen if TIM shots Shepard (happened to me at one of my first playthroughs, lol)? Would Shepard directly fall to indoctrination or would he just die in the rubble?



Interesting question. My assumption and interpretation is that the TIM/Anderson confrontation and long hallway is just like the Geth Consensus mission, both heavy in symbolism with real life consequences.

Remember the Geth Consensus mission where you had to destroy reaper code? Was the code really in block cube form? Even though the reaper code is real Legion had to create a representation of what it would be like to be in the Geth consensus. When Shepard shoots at the reaper code his gun is symbolic, but the consequences are real: he is really deleting reaper code.

In that same spirit the citadel hallway is all an analogy of Shepard's state of mind. You have dead humans and keepers representing blood vesels and reaper presence rewiring Shepard's brain. The Shadow broker parts represent firing Neurons.

The room with TIM/Anderson is a representation of Shepard's prefrontal cortex (in the front of your brain, the part that controls choice ;) ) Anderson is at the control panel but can't do anything, TIM can't do anything either because they are aspects of Shepard's subconcious, his superego and ID respectively. They are part of Shepard but they are not Shepard concious EGO, just influences.

Why do you think TIM "needs Shepard to believe." It's because they need the EGO to give in to TIM/Shepard's ID selfish need for control.

So what would happen if TIM kills Shepard? Nothing would happen. Shepard would cease to be a functionaly human being, he'd probably be brain dead and useless to both sides.

Even indoctrinated agents have some form of concious.

TL;DR Shepard is brain dead

Modifié par smokingotter1, 17 septembre 2012 - 07:46 .


#22991
spotlessvoid

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Gray's views aren't the problem. It was his condescending attitude.

#22992
Iconoclaste

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Gray's views aren't the problem. It was his condescending attitude.

Some ITers have one hell of a condescending attitude, I don't see you annoyed by this.

#22993
BleedingUranium

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Iconoclaste wrote...

demersel wrote...
Don't use the "R" word. It is offencive to them. :whistle:

R.b.ts, yeah... I read a debate a few days ago about this "AI are sentient, therefore their value equals that of organics" thing. It went far enough to show that some people can't get(h) out of their wounded player mindset to make abstract comments, instead they show their strong feelings that reveal they don't make proper distinction between the realm of  "Virtual world" and reality.


I really don't think you understand what I was saying. I have no idea if, in reality fully sapiant AIs could exist or not, but I'm not talking about reality, I'm talking about the Mass Effect universe. When talking about a universe, especially the themes of the story set in said universe, you accept whatever established truthes exist within it, whether they exist or not in reality.

My point was against you saying that you "Don't believe in sapiant robots". My point is that, because we're discussing a fictional universe that, no matter how you see it, has sapiant robots, that opinion is entirely irrelevant.

That would be like examining Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter and deciding that, because I don't believe in magic, it also doesn't exist in those universes.

The main point I'm trying to make? You have to examine the universe from an in-universe perspective, accepting all the facts that are setup in said universe. In the Mass Effect universe, AIs can be just as sapiant and alive as any organic. Fact. Your disagreement is irrelevant.

#22994
spotlessvoid

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Iconoclaste wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

If you are so above it all go back to the real world and do some good. Its a video game forum, not geopolitics. And everyone is compensating for something.

Everyone is not compensating here, fortunately.

Yet you're personally invested enough in an entertainment product to spend time discussing it on the internet....there are a lot more productive things you could be doing. Everyone has their reasons, but nobody here can claim they're doing anything constructive. This is a diversion from real life. It's compensating for something. Just because you feel your reasons are better doesn't mean you're better.

#22995
BleedingUranium

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Dwailing wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Wait, it's BleedingUraniums birthday?!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BLEEDINGURANIUM!

I second that motion.

I third it!


Lokanaiya wrote...

Also, happy birthday BleedingUranium! :)


Thanks everyone!

#22996
Iconoclaste

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BleedingUranium wrote...
( ... ) .

That was not the starting point : we were arguing about the Geth-Quarian war origin : the Geth "rebelling" or the Quarian "agression", it was not even related to what I posted before. Then you compared the Geth to the american slaves, and I opted out of this line of debate.

I proposed something to get out of the "all dream=no ending" circular trap, you picked any other subject to avoid adressing the issue. Your move, not mine.

#22997
spotlessvoid

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Iconoclaste wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Gray's views aren't the problem. It was his condescending attitude.

Some ITers have one hell of a condescending attitude, I don't see you annoyed by this.


You should already know I try to take my personal issue with someone through pm's. Unless they are attacking or mocking me directly, or indirectly through the thread. I don't try to "run" the thread. Anyways, I already said you make some valid points. It's the way you went about it that's disappointing me. If you really wanted to help, you'd put it constructively, instead of lashing out

#22998
BleedingUranium

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Iconoclaste wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...
( ... ) .

That was not the starting point : we were arguing about the Geth-Quarian war origin : the Geth "rebelling" or the Quarian "agression", it was not even related to what I posted before. Then you compared the Geth to the american slaves, and I opted out of this line of debate.

I proposed something to get out of the "all dream=no ending" circular trap, you picked any other subject to avoid adressing the issue. Your move, not mine.


But... that's the same issue. Again, it doesn't matter if you don't think of them as people. In this universe, they are. Legion (in his last moments) and EDI, are/were just as much people as Shepard, Garrus, Anderson, TIM, Liara, or anyone else. Your disagreement with this is irrelevant to it being both true and a central theme of the Mass Effect story.

As for the rest, the kid and decision chamber can't make sense unless they don't exist in reality.

#22999
Iconoclaste

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spotlessvoid wrote...
Yet you're personally invested enough in an entertainment product to spend time discussing it on the internet....there are a lot more productive things you could be doing. Everyone has their reasons, but nobody here can claim they're doing anything constructive. This is a diversion from real life. It's compensating for something. Just because you feel your reasons are better doesn't mean you're better.

This is no "diversion" from real life : I can assure you I am well alive here, behind the keyboard, waiting to go get my kid at school in 30 minutes from now. While I'm not typing, most of the time, I play random stuff on my guitar to strenghten my fingers and gain endurance, left hand only. Some other times, I do other things, and I find some food for thought here when some posters I like put their art and creativity at work. But I can't say this happens very often nowadays, and I voiced that recently. I don't really care if this behavior suits you or not, but if you ask me something at least I will try my best to answer politely, to the best of my capacity, most of the time. The fact that I do not share Mr A or Mr B's particular vision on the ending doesn't allow me to jump on anyone's head, but if someone acts like this towards me I will gladly retaliate as I wish.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 septembre 2012 - 08:05 .


#23000
Jusseb

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demersel wrote...

Jusseb wrote...

*grabs popcorn*


Hey! Sharing is caring! Give me some!


Sweet or Salty?