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[paxxton]

estebanus wrote...

Ace7 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

The next while, I said...

paxxton wrote...

Just go for Control and everything will be fine. You even get Reaper toys to play with at no additional cost.

On a more serious note, how does Control distinguish between Reapers and synthetics like EDI or the geth? If it doesn't, then maybe choosing Control poses a similar moral dilemma as Destroy. Is it better to live and obey someone's will or die and lose everything? Ponder that for a while.

Better to die as yourself than live as a husk of what you once were, I say.

It would have taken me until morning to ponder an answer like that .....but yeah, I agree with this.
and......Indoctrination is the divil.

Is life truly worth living if you can't live it on your own terms? Is it truly beautiful if you don't even have the liberties to make your own decisions, doing what you think is right?

I don't think so, to be honest.

And I agree. But nevertheless everyone has to obey some rules forced on them by social or political regulations. There's always some kind of control. Without it, there's chaos and progress is stifled. lol I'm Harbinger.

Modifié par paxxton, 17 septembre 2012 - 09:48 .

[Lokanaiya]

I had always assumed that by choosing control (in the literal interpretation) Shepard's mind would be uploaded and would just replace the Starchild's. Shepard would become the "collected conciousness of the Reapers" or whatever Starchild introduces himself as.

[Lord Luc1fer]

SubAstris wrote...

Lord Luc1fer wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Anybody on shades of grey theory?

As in Fifty?

Harbinger was sexually abused by the Leviathans so now he must act out kinky scenarios with Shepard for his own gratification? Or something? Haven't read them, so I probably understand the plot of those books as well as anyone...

hehe those books have no plot. They are essentially an X-rated version of ME2

It's fun listening to fangirls try and explain what the book's actually about once you ask 'so what is it about, other than all the bondage?'
And in fairness, I'd say ME2 had a plot! It was kinda episodic with almost a compelte story in each mission. So, many small plots, at any rate

[Dwailing]

I'll answer paxx's question with another: is submission preferable to extinction? Honestly, that's the question that's at the core of the endings. In Control, even if you don't Assume Direct Control of the geth, it looks like Shreaper uses the Reapers to force the geth into line. In Synthesis, you submit to the Catalyst's beliefs by choosing the choice he wants most. In Destroy, you do what you came to do. You don't submit to the Catalyst, and you don't force others to submit to you. Of course, there's also Refuse, but it's still the weirdest of the bunch, if you ask me. I'll reserve judgment on it until we see what BioWare does with dlc.

[Ace7]

estebanus wrote...

Is life truly worth living if you can't live it on your own terms? Is it truly beautiful if you don't even have the liberties to make your own decisions, doing what you think is right?

I don't think so, to be honest.

I whole heartedly agree.

[Arashi08]

paxxton wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

The next while, I said...

paxxton wrote...

Just go for Control and everything will be fine. You even get Reaper toys to play with at no additional cost.

On a more serious note, how does Control distinguish between Reapers and synthetics like EDI or the geth? If it doesn't, then maybe choosing Control poses a similar moral dilemma as Destroy. Is it better to live and obey someone's will or die and lose everything? Ponder that for a while.

If given a choice, I'd personally rather die than be a mindless drone, but that's just me.

Fair enough but no one is talking here about being a mindless creature. I was rather thinking about a kind of control in which the controlled have much freedom but have to obey certain rules imposed by the controller. The controller shapes reality in which the controlled exist.

Well in that case, we are essentially doing that anyway.  People love to think they are in control of things when they really aren't.  While trying not to bring up religion, we still have to obey the laws of physics and all that after all.  But the dilemma might be if you would choose that path for fear of dying, or fear of others dying, which reminds me of another Lao Tzu quote:

"Life and death are one thread, the same line viewed from different sides."

But still what you are talking about sounds alot like what the Templars want in Assassin's Creed; take control of the people to keep them from doing evil things.  I think the capacity for doing what is right should be known and understood through experience and reflection, not forced upon one's point of view because a group of people think they know better than those they want to control, when in reality they are just as corrupt as those they want to "fix"  That's how the Reapers always seemed to me.

Modifié par Arashi08, 17 septembre 2012 - 09:51 .

[estebanus]

paxxton wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ace7 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

The next while, I said...

paxxton wrote...

Just go for Control and everything will be fine. You even get Reaper toys to play with at no additional cost.

On a more serious note, how does Control distinguish between Reapers and synthetics like EDI or the geth? If it doesn't, then maybe choosing Control poses a similar moral dilemma as Destroy. Is it better to live and obey someone's will or die and lose everything? Ponder that for a while.

Better to die as yourself than live as a husk of what you once were, I say.

It would have taken me until morning to ponder an answer like that .....but yeah, I agree with this.
and......Indoctrination is the divil.

Is life truly worth living if you can't live it on your own terms? Is it truly beautiful if you don't even have the liberties to make your own decisions, doing what you think is right?

I don't think so, to be honest.

And I agree. But nevertheless everyone has to obey some rules forced on them by social or political regulations. There's always some kind of control. Without it, there's chaos and progress is stifled. lol I'm Harbinger.

Of course. Total freedom is after all not any different than total chaos. There must always be those strong enough to guide and help those who cannot do so themselves.
Fortunately, western society allows us humans to live and die how we see fit, as long as we don't cause any unnecessary harm to others. That is something I think is worth fighting for.
Freedom is not for free, after all.

Modifié par estebanus, 17 septembre 2012 - 09:53 .

[paxxton]

Ace7 wrote...

What's going to happen to this community if IT is ever confirmed? Kind of a strange prospect...

Anyway's was just dropping by. Im off again....Adios!! Happy Speculating guys and gals!

Everyone's going to be ascended to a higher form of IT existence by the Reapers BioWare.

[SubAstris]

Lord Luc1fer wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Lord Luc1fer wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Anybody on shades of grey theory?

As in Fifty?

Harbinger was sexually abused by the Leviathans so now he must act out kinky scenarios with Shepard for his own gratification? Or something? Haven't read them, so I probably understand the plot of those books as well as anyone...

hehe those books have no plot. They are essentially an X-rated version of ME2

It's fun listening to fangirls try and explain what the book's actually about once you ask 'so what is it about, other than all the bondage?'
And in fairness, I'd say ME2 had a plot! It was kinda episodic with almost a compelte story in each mission. So, many small plots, at any rate

By "fangirls" you mean repressed middle-aged women, yes?

I have to disagree about ME2, it was more or less pointless in terms of plot. I could accept an episodic style if the ME franchise consisted of 12 games, but alas, no.

[estebanus]

paxxton wrote...

Ace7 wrote...

What's going to happen to this community if IT is ever confirmed? Kind of a strange prospect...

Anyway's was just dropping by. Im off again....Adios!! Happy Speculating guys and gals!

Everyone's going to be ascended to a higher form of IT existence by the Reapers BioWare.

Yeah, I think that BioWare would certainly commend ITers for their resilience.

[SubAstris]

Ace7 wrote...

What's going to happen to this community if IT is ever confirmed? Kind of a strange prospect...

Will check to see it isn't April 1st

[estebanus]

SubAstris wrote...

Ace7 wrote...

What's going to happen to this community if IT is ever confirmed? Kind of a strange prospect...

Will check to see it isn't April 1st

lol!

[Restrider]

FellishBeast wrote...

Ace7 wrote...

What's going to happen to this community if IT is ever confirmed? Kind of a strange prospect...

Anyway's was just dropping by. Im off again....Adios!! Happy Speculating guys and gals!

I say we all get drunk and revel in our victory. Maybe we should do that either way, lmao.

You know... there is a nice bar in Rio. Drinks are on me.

[paxxton]

estebanus wrote...

Fortunately, western society allows us humans to live and die how we see fit, as long as we don't cause any unnecessary harm to others. That is something I think is worth fighting for.

Well said. Fighting for and cherishing.

Modifié par paxxton, 17 septembre 2012 - 10:08 .

[Bill Casey]

science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brainwashing1.htm

Breaking down the self

"Maybe I'm just a VI who thinks he's Commander Shepard"

• Assault on identity: You are not
  who you think you are. This is a systematic attack on a target's sense
  of self (also called his identity or ego) and his core belief system.
  The agent denies everything that makes the target who he is: "You are
  not a soldier." "You are not a man." "You are not defending freedom."
  The target is under constant attack for days, weeks or months, to the
  point that he becomes exhausted, confused and disoriented. In this
  state, his beliefs seem less solid.

"You can't help me"

• Guilt: You are bad. While
  the identity crisis is setting in, the agent is simultaneously creating
  an overwhelming sense of guilt in the target. He repeatedly and
  mercilessly attacks the subject for any "sin" the target has committed,
  large or small. He may criticize the target for everything from the
  "evilness" of his beliefs to the way he eats too slowly. The target
  begins to feel a general sense of shame, that everything he does is
  wrong.

"Because... I need you to believe."

• Self-betrayal: Agree with me that you are bad. Once the
  subject is disoriented and drowning in guilt, the agent forces him
  (either with the threat of physical harm or of continuance of the mental
  attack) to denounce his family, friends and peers who share the same
  "wrong" belief system that he holds. This betrayal of his own beliefs
  and of people he feels a sense of loyalty to increases the shame and
  loss of identity the target is already experiencing.

"Wake Up"

• Breaking point: Who am I, where am I and what am I supposed to do?
  With his identity in crisis, experiencing deep shame and having
  betrayed what he has always believed in, the target may undergo what in
  the lay community is referred to as a "nervous breakdown." In
  psychology, "nervous breakdown" is really just a collection of severe
  symptoms that can indicate any number of psychological disturbances. It
  may involve uncontrollable sobbing, deep depression and general
  disorientation. The target may have lost his grip on reality and have
  the feeling of being completely lost and alone. When
  the target reaches his breaking point, his sense of self is pretty much
  up for grabs -- he has no clear understanding of who he is or what is
  happening to him. At this point, the agent sets up the temptation to
  convert to another belief system that will save the target from his
  misery.

"Why are you telling me this? Why help me?"

• Leniency: I can help you. With ­the target in a state of crisis, the
  agent offers some small kindness or reprieve from the abuse. He may
  offer the target a drink of water, or take a moment to ask the target
  what he misses about home. In a state of breakdown resulting from an
  endless psychological attack, the small kindness seems huge, and the
  target may experience a sense of relief and gratitude completely out of
  proportion to the offering, as if the agent has saved his life.

"So... the Illusive Man was right after all"

• Compulsion
  to confession: You can help yourself.For the first time in the
  brainwashing process, the target is faced with the contrast between the
  guilt and pain of identity assault and the sudden relief of leniency.
  The target may feel a desire to reciprocate the kindness offered to him,
  and at this point, the agent may present the possibility of confession
  as a means to relieving guilt and pain.

"The created will always rebel against the creator"

• Channeling of guilt:
  This is why you're in pain. After weeks or months of assault, confusion,
  breakdown and moments of leniency, the target's guilt has lost all
  meaning -- he's not sure what he has done wrong, he just knows he is
  wrong. This creates something of a blank slate that lets the agent fill
  in the blanks: He can attach that guilt, that sense of "wrongness," to
  whatever he wants. The agent attaches the target's guilt to the belief
  system the agent is trying to replace. The target comes to believe it is
  his belief system that is the cause of his shame. The contrast between
  old and new has been established: The old belief system is associated
  with psychological (and usually physical) agony; and the new belief
  system is associated with the possibility of escaping that agony.

"It is the ideal solution"

• Releasing of guilt: It's not me; it's my beliefs.The
  embattled target is relieved to learn there is an external cause of his
  wrongness, that it is not he himself that is inescapably bad -- this
  means he can escape his wrongness by escaping the wrong belief system.
  All he has to do is denounce the people and institutions associated with
  that belief system, and he won't be in pain anymore. The target has the
  power to release himself from wrongness by confessing to acts
  associated with his old belief system. With his full
  confessions, the target has completed his psychological rejection of his
  former identity. It is now up to the agent to offer the target a new
  one.

Modifié par Bill Casey, 17 septembre 2012 - 10:08 .

[estebanus]

Restrider wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

Ace7 wrote...

What's going to happen to this community if IT is ever confirmed? Kind of a strange prospect...

Anyway's was just dropping by. Im off again....Adios!! Happy Speculating guys and gals!

I say we all get drunk and revel in our victory. Maybe we should do that either way, lmao.

You know... there is a nice bar in Rio. Drinks are on me.

No alcohol for me, thanks. I'd rather have a nice, cold coke!

[BleedingUranium]

Restrider wrote...

Congrats to Bleeding Uranium (though I am not sure how a heavy metal can bleed).

Lord Luc1fer wrote...

And Happy Birthday if you're still there Uranium!

Lol, thanks

[Restrider]

estebanus wrote...

Restrider wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

Ace7 wrote...

What's going to happen to this community if IT is ever confirmed? Kind of a strange prospect...

Anyway's was just dropping by. Im off again....Adios!! Happy Speculating guys and gals!

I say we all get drunk and revel in our victory. Maybe we should do that either way, lmao.

You know... there is a nice bar in Rio. Drinks are on me.

No alcohol for me, thanks. I'd rather have a nice, cold coke!

If I think about it....
It would be a nice occasion to smoke a cigar and go hit the bar again...
*scratches head*
Hm.... sweet.

[BleedingUranium]

Bill Casey wrote...

science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brainwashing1.htm

*snip*

You always pop in randomly with the awesomest stuff!

[smokingotter1]

SubAstris wrote...

Ace7 wrote...

What's going to happen to this community if IT is ever confirmed? Kind of a strange prospect...

Will check to see it isn't April 1st

After a little self congrats to myself I would probably lose interest in ME3. Dedicate that time to playing more Starcraft 2.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Well said Bill Casey, you always have these knowledge bombs to drop like this, it's great!

[paxxton]

Arashi08 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

The next while, I said...

paxxton wrote...

Just go for Control and everything will be fine. You even get Reaper toys to play with at no additional cost.

On a more serious note, how does Control distinguish between Reapers and synthetics like EDI or the geth? If it doesn't, then maybe choosing Control poses a similar moral dilemma as Destroy. Is it better to live and obey someone's will or die and lose everything? Ponder that for a while.

If given a choice, I'd personally rather die than be a mindless drone, but that's just me.

Fair enough but no one is talking here about being a mindless creature. I was rather thinking about a kind of control in which the controlled have much freedom but have to obey certain rules imposed by the controller. The controller shapes reality in which the controlled exist.

Well in that case, we are essentially doing that anyway.  People love to think they are in control of things when they really aren't.  While trying not to bring up religion, we still have to obey the laws of physics and all that after all.  But the dilemma might be if you would choose that path for fear of dying, or fear of others dying, which reminds me of another Lao Tzu quote:

"Life and death are one thread, the same line viewed from different sides."

But still what you are talking about sounds alot like what the Templars want in Assassin's Creed; take control of the people to keep them from doing evil things.  I think the capacity for doing what is right should be known and understood through experience and reflection, not forced upon one's point of view because a group of people think they know better than those they want to control, when in reality they are just as corrupt as those they want to "fix"  That's how the Reapers always seemed to me.

That reminds me of neuroscientific foundations of human behavior, which is an interesting topic in itself and is considered with, among others, that the roots of human's being good or bad to each other lie inside their brains and how they are influenced by their surroundings. So in other words the rules should reflect human nature and not be one's or a particular group's convictions imposed on others.

[estebanus]

Well, I'm going to bed now. Goodbye!

[paxxton]

A possible course of things is that the thread will gradually evolve from purely discussing IT to other related ME topics (shifting from time to time).

[Dwailing]

I agree with everyone. That truly is a fine post Bill. And before anyone says, "Oh, BioWare's writers aren't smart enough to come up with that," remember that Mac Walters has a degree in psychology. He would know this, most likely.