80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Iconoclaste]

magnetite wrote...

Sorry, my memory is kind of shot. I'd search for it, but the forum's search function only searches thread titles.

There were pictures of both shown on the thread to illustrate the differences. The issue was discussed in IT mark I and II, and briefly hinted at in III for a few pages, if I remember well.

[Rifneno]

Dendio1 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Shades of grey theory people.

 Shepard's exposure to reaper tech resulted in disturbing dreams and emotional instability. The endings were real and shepard made his final choice of his own free will.

Let's call it "Nonsensical crap theory" instead.

what? Couldn't read through all the snark

My bad.  You're saying all the little clues that lead us to IT are there and real, but the indoctrination didn't work and the ending is real.  You're basically taking the two major interpretations of the ending and combining their worst aspects into some sort of horrific monster.  Not unlike a turian and a yahg krogan makes a brute.

[Dendio1]

Most of the more compelling evidence for IT is found within the game and game series more so than the last 10 mins, especially after extended cut.

You want to talk about the dream sequences, object rho, the derelect reaper, the squad reactions to the human reaper in cerberus, james asking about hums, shepard gaining his paranoia idle animation, even major coats...fine all very compelling stuff

However while all this stuff does strongly suggest that something may be up with shepard, I don't think its enough to conclude that the ending is all a dream, .

It was originally assumed that the ending was a dream partially because of how star kid came out of nowhere, alongside the very brief ending sequence. Too much makes sense now with the additional EC and leviathan content.

At best lets say shepard fought through mass effect 3 with subtle indoctrination playing a part in his waning mental health. Perhaps given more time the indoctrination would have gotten stronger and eventually became something shep had to deal with directly.

However because star kid, the prothean VI and leviathan never mention shepard being controlled by the reapers, its safe to say shepard freely chooses to use or abandon the crucible and becomes a legend for his part in ending the reaper threat.

Modifié par Dendio1, 18 septembre 2012 - 03:03 .

[Iconoclaste]

llbountyhunter wrote...

yeah we thought they were cables, but in the guys from bioware said it was re-bar during that conference thingy.... of course they have misspoken in the past.

Which "guys from Bioware"?

[Rifneno]

Oh God. The Prothean VI detection argument. I haven't heard that one in a while. Excuse me, I have to go drink until my liver fails.

[byne]

The prothean VI clearly no longer wants to cooperate with Shepard once it talks to her on the Cerberus station. He only complies because his security protocols were overwritten.

Also, why the hell would godchild mention she's being controlled by the Reapers? That'd make his entire plan fall apart....

"This depends on you not knowing we're controlling you. By the way we're controlling you!"

Godchild's dumb but he isnt that dumb.

[Dendio1]

Rifneno wrote...

Oh God. The Prothean VI detection argument. I haven't heard that one in a while. Excuse me, I have to go drink until my liver fails.

Drink responsibly

[401 Kill]

byne wrote...

The prothean VI clearly no longer wants to cooperate with Shepard once it talks to her on the Cerberus station. He only complies because his security protocols were overwritten.

Also, why the hell would godchild mention she's being controlled by the Reapers? That'd make his entire plan fall apart....

"This depends on you not knowing we're controlling you. By the way we're controlling you!"

Godchild's dumb but he isnt that dumb.

He kind of says that he was controlling Shepard too. About TIM: "He could have never taken control , because we already controlled him"... TIM controlled Shepard, and the Reapers controlled TIM, thus the reapers controlled Shepard. (That is my logic and I am referring to when TIM makes you shoot Anderson (If that even happened of course)).

[lex0r11]

Rifneno wrote...

Oh God. The Prothean VI detection argument. I haven't heard that one in a while. Excuse me, I have to go drink until my liver fails.

Bottoms up.

Modifié par lex0r11, 18 septembre 2012 - 03:14 .

[Iconoclaste]

byne wrote...

The prothean VI clearly no longer wants to cooperate with Shepard once it talks to her on the Cerberus station. He only complies because his security protocols were overwritten.

I didn't see that. The Prothean VI tells everything Shepard needs to know at that point. He reveals that his "security protocols" have been bypassed by TIM, but he doesn't complain about EDI putting him "online". Did TIM succeed in "forcing" the VI to answer whatever question it is asked without resistance? Maybe. But then, how can anyone prove it wouldn't have answered willingly to Shepard in normal circumstances?

The gap was filled too easily regarding the "Prothean VIs incapacity to detect indoctrinated agents" in the end of the Prothean cycle. Where is it explained that those agents ever got close to being detected by Prothean VIs, or at what "range" the VIs could effectively detect indoctrination? These indoctrinated agents surely didn't spend their time dancing around VIs capable of revealing them! Every Prothean had a VI on him, and it started beeping when crossing an indoctrinated prothean? How did it proceed? Were there Indoctrination-detecting VIs everywhere like we have sprinklers in buildings?

From there, how can we say that, since Protheans had VIs capable of detecting indoctrinated people, and they were brought down by them, VIs were ineffective to do their job, so Javik speaks out of his competence, and the VI in Cerberus base is also incompetent ? Did the whole Prothean saga happen at VI-indoc-detection range, in a large room?

Edited typos.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 18 septembre 2012 - 04:02 .

[demersel]

 Even after all this time - just preceless!
"it is not a thing you can comprehend...." 
www.youtube.com/watch

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

 Even after all this time - just preceless!
"it is not a thing you can comprehend...." 
www.youtube.com/watch

"Not the answer I was looking for."

[Dendio1]

byne wrote...

The prothean VI clearly no longer wants to cooperate with Shepard once it talks to her on the Cerberus station. He only complies because his security protocols were overwritten.

Also, why the hell would godchild mention she's being controlled by the Reapers? That'd make his entire plan fall apart....

"This depends on you not knowing we're controlling you. By the way we're controlling you!"

Godchild's dumb but he isnt that dumb.

Leviathan tells us that star kid is searching for a solution to prevent organics from wiping themselves out and has not yet found it. Star kid tells shepard he is helping him because shepard's presence and the crucibles construction convinced him that his old solution was flawed and he wanted to work with shep to find a new one.

So here the game clearly states on two occasions , at two different times from two different npc's ,who are mutual enemies, that star kids purpose is to find/ improve his solution.

The game does not anywhere state that star kid is trying to trick shepard into choosing a choice( his descriptions are shown to be legit), and it would make zero sense for star kid to give an indoctrinated shepard choices.

Indoctrination is clear in its strengths and one of them is forcing the victim to submit to its whims through direct mental assault. Sure subtle influence has its place, but it only goes so far. TIM opposed the reapers throughout his subtle stages. Eventually tim finally moved to open the citadel walls (renegade option), and thats when the reapers dialed it up and physically forced his submission. There was no trickery to ,for example, convince TIM that refusing to open the doors was the only way to stop the reapers. subtle indoctrination only goes so far. If shepard were truly indoctrinated the reapers would just dial up the mental assault and shep would have to commit suicide or listen to the voices.

Now its also worth mentioning that even though star kid controls the reapers, he and the reapers are not one and the same. he says he is the catalyst and the citadel. He refers to the reapers as his tools. Sovereign says reapers are each a nation, the reaper on rannoch says harbinger speaks of shepard. All of these things suggest that the reapers have a level of individuality. My point with all of this is to say, that  Harbinger wanting to indoctrinate shepard back in mass effect 2 does not necessarily mean that star kid wants to do the same in mass effect 3. As stated above star kid wants to find a better solution to his problem.

Its very hard to break away from ignoring everything and going back to simply distrusting everything star kid says, but think about what bioware has done since EC. They have clarified star kid and his purpose. The kid once came out of left field, suddenly brought up a then completly out of nowhere problem of synthetics vs organics, and oddly seemed to give shepard the manual on how to use the crucible for seemingly no reason.

Since then bioware has give us the reason he's helping shepard, mentioned star kid and his problem mid game via leviathan and added dialogue where he says he doesn't like control and destroy, but is willing to go with it in hopes of improving his solution.

So getting back to my point. Bioware has done everything in their power to make star kid believable. If you choose to ignore all of the added content proving star kids alibi, then thats your choice and your interpretation. But if you are truly basing your opinion on what we experience in game, its much easier now to take the star kid at face value.

The evidence and reasoning for shepard being affected on some level by indoctrination is solid and I enjoy watching the vids finding more stuff throughout the series. In my opinion shepards exposure results in his disturbing dream sequences and what edi observes to be something along the lines of extreme emotional instability...and thats it. If it were more than that, then we would have seen more than that.

Shades of Grey Theory

Modifié par Dendio1, 18 septembre 2012 - 03:51 .

[Iconoclaste]

demersel wrote...

 Even after all this time - just preceless!
"it is not a thing you can comprehend...." 
www.youtube.com/watch

That's hilarious...

[Iconoclaste]

Dendio1 wrote...

The game does not anywhere state that star kid is trying to trick shepard into choosing a choice( his descriptions are shown to be legit), and it would make zero sense for star kid to give an indoctrinated shepard choices.

The only thing I really can't believe in the Catalyst's explanations is the destruction of all synthetics and stuff related to Reapers (Reaper-derived tech) if Shepard chooses the "Destroy" option, because we can see weapons, Alliance fleet ships and most of the Citadel still there after the blast. Even the Reapers only fall to the ground, they do not "explode" or "dissolve", and the Alliance ships seen in EC are not torn to pieces like the aft part of the Normandy was. Which allows me to believe synthetics are not really "destroyed" by the Crucible.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 18 septembre 2012 - 04:05 .

[Rifneno]

Iconoclaste wrote...

demersel wrote...

 Even after all this time - just preceless!
"it is not a thing you can comprehend...." 
www.youtube.com/watch

That's hilarious...

And there's one thing we agree on.  That video is awesome.  It's just so perfectly done.  The stuttering answers, the long awkward pauses, trying to drown out Shepard's protests with his horn, it's just a masterpiece.  The rest of that parody series was funny, but they didn't live up the impossible standards set by that.

[spotlessvoid]

Dendio you forgot one little thing....
People suggest the end is a dream because it's weird and dream like. The things you mention aren't why the thread began.

[spotlessvoid]

If Harbinger is individually acting out his own plan, then how does control work? Here Shep, Harbs is a bit rebellious-just yank the leash real hard. Bastard tries tohump indoctrinate everything !!!

[Iconoclaste]

Rifneno wrote...

And there's one thing we agree on.  That video is awesome.  It's just so perfectly done.  The stuttering answers, the long awkward pauses, trying to drown out Shepard's protests with his horn, it's just a masterpiece.  The rest of that parody series was funny, but they didn't live up the impossible standards set by that.

Too bad. I would gladfully watch the Catalyst fumble like that with corresponding animations while explaining synthesis or Control to Shep. Big Reaper there is just a limp mass of shame, just hilarious...

[Dwailing]

Rifneno wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

demersel wrote...

 Even after all this time - just preceless!
"it is not a thing you can comprehend...." 
www.youtube.com/watch

That's hilarious...

And there's one thing we agree on.  That video is awesome.  It's just so perfectly done.  The stuttering answers, the long awkward pauses, trying to drown out Shepard's protests with his horn, it's just a masterpiece.  The rest of that parody series was funny, but they didn't live up the impossible standards set by that.

Oh, and don't forget to turn on the transcribed subtitles. 

[paxxton]

Dwailing wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

demersel wrote...

 Even after all this time - just preceless!
"it is not a thing you can comprehend...." 
www.youtube.com/watch

That's hilarious...

And there's one thing we agree on.  That video is awesome.  It's just so perfectly done.  The stuttering answers, the long awkward pauses, trying to drown out Shepard's protests with his horn, it's just a masterpiece.  The rest of that parody series was funny, but they didn't live up the impossible standards set by that.

Oh, and don't forget to turn on the transcribed subtitles. 

Btw, have you tried to turn on the subtitles in ACAVYOS' video. The Codex reader pronounces everything so perfectly that the algorithm exactly transcribes everything he says. Seriously, no difference.

[Rifneno]

God, I wish they'd get on with it and release another MP DLC. Been saving creds for too long, I'm starting to run out of expendable gear. =/

[Dwailing]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

The game does not anywhere state that star kid is trying to trick shepard into choosing a choice( his descriptions are shown to be legit), and it would make zero sense for star kid to give an indoctrinated shepard choices.

The only thing I really can't believe in the Catalyst's explanations is the destruction of all synthetics and stuff related to Reapers (Reaper-derived tech) if Shepard chooses the "Destroy" option, because we can see weapons, Alliance fleet ships and most of the Citadel still there after the blast. Even the Reapers only fall to the ground, they do not "explode" or "dissolve", and the Alliance ships seen in EC are not torn to pieces like the aft part of the Normandy was. Which allows me to believe synthetics are not really "destroyed" by the Crucible.

And what's even weirder is that they don't show ANYTHING depicting the geth or EDI dying.  You'd think that they would show them dying to drive home the sacrifices that you had to make to stop the Reapers (Goodness knows they didn't pull any punches before.), but no.  The only hints you have that the synthetics were destroyed is that there is no geth slide, and EDI's name is on the memorial wall while she is not present in the memorial scene.

[paxxton]

No, there's more. Its taxes.