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[TheConstantOne]

So here is some speculation for everyone. I had some thoughts regarding this next ME game that Bioware said they have plans for and had a great idea.

Let's go to the Leviathan discussion where we are told that the Leviathans didn't want their servant races killing each other and so created an Intelligence to solve the problem for them. What if the Leviathans didn't just want servants but soldiers as well?

A good story possibility would be for the Leviathans to have begun exploring a nearby galaxy. During these explorations, they discovered this other galaxy's apex race. This new race was formidable enough to challenge the Leviathans and perhaps even threaten them. The implication here is that the Leviathans wanted to end all of the squabbling of the "lesser" races so that the Milky Way would be both
1) more defendable
and
2) the Leviathans could raise an army that could invade this other galaxy and continue spreading their dominance.

Of course, the Intelligence reached a different solution than the Leviathans had in mind and the Reapers were born.

Many years passed now. The apex race from the neighboring galaxy did not try to invade, perhaps because their technology was behind where the Leviathans were. However, the Reaper fleet kept growing. Eventually, when the neighboring apex race sent scout vessels towards our galaxy, they discovered an immense Reaper fleet and knew that conquering our galaxy would be futile. So they focused their gaze elsewhere and waited until they could one day defeat a Reaper fleet of that size.

Enter our cycle. We end the Reaper threat. A few things can happen now:

1) Destroy (both IT and literal): The Reaper fleets have been destroyed and our galaxy is rebuilding. But...the neighboring apex race has noticed that the Reapers are gone and our military forces are spent. Only a few years after our greatest victory, we face an invasion from an extremely powerful extragalactic force. It is possible that Shepard could be the protagonist if this chain of events plays out.

2) Control (literal): The Shepard-AI helps the galaxy rebuild but begins to lose control of some of the Reapers after a few months. The collective was simply to great for Shepard's mind to override forever. These rogue Reapers try to begin harvesting again. The Shepard Reapers then unite with the galaxy's military forces and end the insurrection. Essentially, the Reaper war is won conventionally. But almost all of the Reapers are destroyed and the galaxy still needs to focus on rebuilding. Sensing our weakness, the neighboring apex race invades...

3) Synthesis (literal): The galaxy is united and the rebuilding process is going smoothly. The species of the galaxy learn about a lot of lost technology from the now pacified Reapers. There are new problems for the galaxy to face, but they are being addressed. The Reapers, despite their fierce weaponry, are essentially little more than enormous libraries. Their programming fulfilled, the Reapers simply communicate and leave matters of security to the rest of the galaxy. After a few years of reconnaissance, the neighboring apex race realize that the Reapers aren't a threat and attack. The Reapers put up no resistance and the galaxy, still not having completely rebuilt, once again falls into a state of war...

4) Refuse: I highly doubt this ending would be used. But, for the sake of those who like this choice, any of the above will happen but the events will be triggered by someone else.

I know that this post is slightly off topic but this thread looks like it needed a little kick. So here you are, speculations for the future. The Destroy ending sets the best tone for this kind of story I think. It's also the only ending we can really utilize with IT

[EpyonX3]

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Using people from ME1, whom most players might have forgotten about, wouldn't have the same impact as showing people Shepard's just met.

They could've used squadmembers or someone else that even people who've only played three would consider more important than the scientist thy met an hour ago.

I suppose Leviathan can only take forms of people he enthralled.

Btw, why wasn't Dr Bryson enthralled at all?

That's a good question.

He was probably more cautious than his assistants or probably didn't spend so much time next to it. Remember, you have prolonged exposure to the artifact. 

This in a way disproves IT a bit. Indoctrination works very similar to the enthrallment of Levy. It's like a synthetic version of it. In order to become indoctrinate, you need prolonged, direct exposure to whatever is generating the signal. 

So those who believe that SHepard can be indoctrinated by small contact with reapers over the course of two to three years might be wrong.

[RavenEyry]

EpyonX3 wrote...


So those who believe that SHepard can be indoctrinated by small contact with reapers over the course of two to three years might be wrong.

Two days next to object rho remember.

[demersel]

Dr Bryson wasn't enthralled because he was already indoctrinated. Reapers were searching for the leviathan through him.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

EpyonX3 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Using people from ME1, whom most players might have forgotten about, wouldn't have the same impact as showing people Shepard's just met.

They could've used squadmembers or someone else that even people who've only played three would consider more important than the scientist thy met an hour ago.

I suppose Leviathan can only take forms of people he enthralled.

Btw, why wasn't Dr Bryson enthralled at all?

That's a good question.

He was probably more cautious than his assistants or probably didn't spend so much time next to it. Remember, you have prolonged exposure to the artifact. 

This in a way disproves IT a bit. Indoctrination works very similar to the enthrallment of Levy. It's like a synthetic version of it. In order to become indoctrinate, you need prolonged, direct exposure to whatever is generating the signal. 

So those who believe that SHepard can be indoctrinated by small contact with reapers over the course of two to three years might be wrong.

Rana Thanopsis, the asari you ran into on Virmire eventually becomes indoctrinated and goes on a killing spree in ME3 and the only known exposure she had was the time she spent on Sarens facility on Virmire.

This essentially proves that Indoctrination can grow on its own after initial exposure, it dosent need constant exposure. I mean we meet her in ME2 and she showed no signs of Indoctrination.

Also Shepard did not spend a very long time around the Leviathans orbs either, the longest beeing the battle on the water planet at the end, but Leviathans mind control power works just fine.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

demersel wrote...

Dr Bryson wasn't enthralled because he was already indoctrinated. Reapers were searching for the leviathan through him.

Possibly, but I dont really see anyway of verifying that.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Restrider wrote...

I don't know about "most people" but I personally had no problem with the ending except a few loose ends that the extended cut patched up. In my first playthrough, before all the hubub, I was sitting there trying to decide wether I should pick control or destroy... blue is paragon, red is renegade, the child said destroy would kill not just the reapers and said control was good,etc.. All these thoughts were floating through my head and I suddenly woke up, thinking "wait a minute...TIM showing paragon? Anderson as renegade? This catalyst AI is the boy from the beginning and the dreams, he's lying! Screw you reapers!" And I went toward destroy and shot that thing with conviction.

I formed the Indoctorination conclusion on my own and not because I wanted to have a new ending but because I interpreted the clues and had a revelation that this was the reapers last attempt to stop shepard, their last ditch effort to Indoctorinate not just Shepard, but also me. I personally don't understand all the distain for the endings.

No kidding.

When I first played the ending, I was sitting there, wondering why the hell 'control' was coloured paragon blue and 'destroy' renegade red. I couldn't believe it. They even showed TIM trying to take control and Anderson shooting the tube! At first, it just confused the hell out of me.

Not to mention the fact that I just spent 10 minutes trying to convince TIM that he was indoctrinated for thinking he could control the Reapers. So here comes this kid, suspiciously looking like that kid back on Earth, telling me that I can control the Reapers, but TIM could not.

I didn't immediately think   "Indoctrination!!!", but I was reeeeeeeeally suspicious of the choices I was being offered. Synthesis sounded completely ridiculous, I didn't give it much thought. I pondered control for a while, but I really didn't trust it. I really couldn't convince myself that I could control the Reapers where TIM could not.

So naturally, I picked destroy, but veeeeeeery reluctantly, because I couldn't stand the idea of my final choice being the renegade option, when my Shepard had always been 100% pure paragon.

Then after finishing the game, I was organizing my thoughts by discussing the ending with a friend; he was mostly just mad about the plotholes, where I was more confused as to what the hell it all meant. Then when organizing my thoughts I suddenly realized that Saren had been advocating the concept of synthesis.

So, being curious about the 'perfect ending', I looked up the breath scene on youtube (I didn't get it because even though I had the highest possible EMS, I didn't play any multiplayer because I was playing my friend's copy of the game) and seeing the stone rubble, my first thought was 'London!', and it immediately dawned on me.

I just KNEW with absolute certainty at that point, that it had all been an indoctrination attempt. It 'only' took me a couple of hours to figure it out. So, having this epiphany, I enthusiastically messaged my friend, pitching the idea that it had all been an indoctrination attempt, because TIM advocated control and Saren advocated synthesis, and both had been indoctrinated, and he immediately started about IT.

I had no idea what he was talking about, because I had come up with the idea entirely by myself. But it seemed like he couldn't even believe that I did, as he started ranting about how I was 'buying into a fanmade theory', while I had never even heard of Indoctrination Theory.

So that's when I found out my friend is a die-hard IT-hating literalist.

Anyway, what baffles me is that every player, renegade or paragon, has to go through that conversation with TIM and convince him that he is indoctrinated for thinking he can control the Reapers... and yet sooooooooooo many pick control, just because this kid tells them that it's okay! Are you kidding me?

"Hey Shep! TIM can't control us, because we control him! But you can! Because you're awesome and special!"

SEEMS. LEGIT.

And even when people don't pick control, sooooooo many of them are thinking the choices are legit, and have to be taken at face value.

I just can't wrap my mind around the literal interpretation, I just can't. IT makes so much god damn sense, it's not even funny.

As for all the supporting evidence for IT, it's damn interesting, but I don't even need it. I came to the conclusion just by paying attention to the story.

And I don't need an IT reveal either. Don't get me wrong, Project X would be awesome, but even if we never get a 'real ending', and they will forever leave it vague, it will always be crystal clear to me what happened at the end. Without the shadow of a doubt.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 20 septembre 2012 - 03:47 .

[TheWill]

im sure the codex says that the reapers end up using the person to amplify the signal.. so at some point the device originally used is no longer needed to gain control of the individual.... just the initial exposure to it...

[Andromidius]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

demersel wrote...

Dr Bryson wasn't enthralled because he was already indoctrinated. Reapers were searching for the leviathan through him.

Possibly, but I dont really see anyway of verifying that.

That would actually make quite a bit of sense.  Why are the Reapers at the Mining colony already?  How did they find out? 

Having an indoctrinated agent seeking it out and attempting an infilitration (hense why he was locked up in the medical bay and replaced with an imposter - maybe the Leviathans wanted to study indoctrination and see if they could override it with Enthrallment?) would sort that out nicely.

[RavenEyry]

TheWill wrote...

im sure the codex says that the reapers end up using the person to amplify the signal.. so at some point the device originally used is no longer needed to gain control of the individual.... just the initial exposure to it...

I always thought that meant indoctrinated people could indoctrinate others, though we never see evidence of that (not obviously at least)

[TheWill]

im sure the leviathans would be interested in getting this "perfected indoctrination" for themselves...

[Home run MF]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Rana Thanopsis, the asari you ran into on Virmire eventually becomes indoctrinated and goes on a killing spree in ME3 and the only known exposure she had was the time she spent on Sarens facility on Virmire. 

This essentially proves that Indoctrination can grow on its own after initial exposure, it dosent need constant exposure. I mean we meet her in ME2 and she showed no signs of Indoctrination.

Also Shepard did not spend a very long time around the Leviathans orbs either, the longest beeing the battle on the water planet at the end, but Leviathans mind control power works just fine.

I'm not so sure about that, I mean listen to both of her conversations, the background sounds seem to tell something is definitely wrong. 

[Andromidius]

Home run MF wrote...

I'm not so sure about that, I mean listen to both of her conversations, the background sounds seem to tell something is definitely wrong. 

I always thought it was odd that you couldn't execute her in ME2. 

I mean you had less reason to in ME1, yet you can.  In ME2 she's clearly not doing what she promised she would and is a danger to society.  Yet all you can do is let her go.

Bizzare.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Have you noticed how 'glowy' and Saren-like her eyes are though? Compare them to Liara's in that same cutscene. Wow.

Not so much in the ME2 vid though.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 20 septembre 2012 - 04:04 .

[D.Sharrah]

I've said before that the game did a very good job of getting me confused enough with the final choice that I picked synthesis...can't really tell you why, but I can tell you that I immediately felt like it was too good to be true (a feeling only reinforced by the EC). So I reloaded and picked control and confirmed my suspicions when I had a very similar response. Only after reloading again to pick destroy, did I feel right about the choice (and that was without the breath scene due to not playing any MP iniatally). Now I will also admit that I did not jump right to IT...but just after a few days of lurking this thread (Mark I) and seeing the clues with fresh eyes I came around to believing IT.

[Restrider]

TheConstantOne wrote...

So here is some speculation for everyone. I had some thoughts regarding this next ME game that Bioware said they have plans for and had a great idea.

Let's go to the Leviathan discussion where we are told that the Leviathans didn't want their servant races killing each other and so created an Intelligence to solve the problem for them. What if the Leviathans didn't just want servants but soldiers as well?

A good story possibility would be for the Leviathans to have begun exploring a nearby galaxy. During these explorations, they discovered this other galaxy's apex race. This new race was formidable enough to challenge the Leviathans and perhaps even threaten them. The implication here is that the Leviathans wanted to end all of the squabbling of the "lesser" races so that the Milky Way would be both
1) more defendable
and
2) the Leviathans could raise an army that could invade this other galaxy and continue spreading their dominance.

Of course, the Intelligence reached a different solution than the Leviathans had in mind and the Reapers were born.

Many years passed now. The apex race from the neighboring galaxy did not try to invade, perhaps because their technology was behind where the Leviathans were. However, the Reaper fleet kept growing. Eventually, when the neighboring apex race sent scout vessels towards our galaxy, they discovered an immense Reaper fleet and knew that conquering our galaxy would be futile. So they focused their gaze elsewhere and waited until they could one day defeat a Reaper fleet of that size.

Enter our cycle. We end the Reaper threat. A few things can happen now:

1) Destroy (both IT and literal): The Reaper fleets have been destroyed and our galaxy is rebuilding. But...the neighboring apex race has noticed that the Reapers are gone and our military forces are spent. Only a few years after our greatest victory, we face an invasion from an extremely powerful extragalactic force. It is possible that Shepard could be the protagonist if this chain of events plays out.

2) Control (literal): The Shepard-AI helps the galaxy rebuild but begins to lose control of some of the Reapers after a few months. The collective was simply to great for Shepard's mind to override forever. These rogue Reapers try to begin harvesting again. The Shepard Reapers then unite with the galaxy's military forces and end the insurrection. Essentially, the Reaper war is won conventionally. But almost all of the Reapers are destroyed and the galaxy still needs to focus on rebuilding. Sensing our weakness, the neighboring apex race invades...

3) Synthesis (literal): The galaxy is united and the rebuilding process is going smoothly. The species of the galaxy learn about a lot of lost technology from the now pacified Reapers. There are new problems for the galaxy to face, but they are being addressed. The Reapers, despite their fierce weaponry, are essentially little more than enormous libraries. Their programming fulfilled, the Reapers simply communicate and leave matters of security to the rest of the galaxy. After a few years of reconnaissance, the neighboring apex race realize that the Reapers aren't a threat and attack. The Reapers put up no resistance and the galaxy, still not having completely rebuilt, once again falls into a state of war...

4) Refuse: I highly doubt this ending would be used. But, for the sake of those who like this choice, any of the above will happen but the events will be triggered by someone else.

I know that this post is slightly off topic but this thread looks like it needed a little kick. So here you are, speculations for the future. The Destroy ending sets the best tone for this kind of story I think. It's also the only ending we can really utilize with IT

This is just my personal opinion (obviously), but I kind of resent the idea of introducing a whole new über-threat to the ME universe. Furthermore, if you stick with Shepard as the main character (and many fans want that), you should stick with the same antagonist.

As an IT-Dream supporter the answer for a Mass Effect 4 (=sequel) is pretty obvious.
Here is how I would imagine a Mass Effect 4 (=sequel):
You import your character
I) Destroy was chosen
I.1) With High EMS
Shepard wakes up after the breathe scene, disoriented, but alive (introduction of gameplay, eg. SR-1 incident at the beginning of ME 2). The reaper war is not over, since the last events of ME 3 have been a failed indoctrination attempt. Yet, the Crucible is still armed. Now I am not sure, several things could happen for a good main plot. The Crucible is a trap, or the Crucible fires, but only destroys/disables a fraction of the Reapers and finding a solution to the war is still the way to go.

Furthermore I'd like to see no or a minor decision at the end of ME4, but that the endings differ vastly based on the decisions we did throughout the series (eg.: the genophage arc did that okay, so you would have -for example- several different story arcs (genophage, Rannoch, Cerberus/Alliance (option for ME4), Council (ME1 or ME4 ?), Collector Base... you name it!) that have all a different outcome, but are also not isolated from each other. Let's say we cured the genophage but without Wrex in charge. If we did not save the council, the Turians would be to weak to battle the krogan hordes again... note that this is just an example I made in less then a minute.

I.2) With Mid EMS
Shepard is severely injured and has to be treated medically. This may trigger the loss of a squadmate later throughout the game (maybe Shepard is still too weak, to rescue one of his squadmates - again, just an example). Everything else is like in I.1.

I.3) With Low EMS
Shepard is dead. Critical Mission Failure. Or you play a new character (though that is unlikely and hard to implement).

II) Control was chosen
II.1) With High EMS
You see Shepard in London approaching Anderson and squadmates. After an autodialogue, where  Shepard tries to subtly convince his allies to do something that would jeapardize the mission Anderson/LI/squadmate are pointing these flaws out, and Shepard would come to a logic loop, such as Saren/TIM. In a struggle, Shepard could breake free of indoctrination, but he would harm one of the squadmates/LI (say this character would be in treatment during the next 3 Missions).

II.2) With Mid EMS
You see Shepard in London approaching Anderson and squadmates. After an
autodialogue, where  Shepard tries to subtly convince his allies to do
something that would jeapardize the mission Anderson/LI/squadmate are
pointing these flaws out, and Shepard would come to a logic loop, such
as Saren/TIM. Shepard retains his will for a brief moment, to have the opportunity to shoot him/herself TIM/Saren-style. Critical Mission Failure.

II.3) With Low EMS
You see Shepard in London approaching Anderson and squadmates. After an
autodialogue, where  Shepard tries to subtly convince his allies to do
something that would jeapardize the mission Anderson/LI/squadmate are
pointing these flaws out, and Shepard would come to a logic loop, such
as Saren/TIM. Getting mad, Shepard would go into a full rampage and kill Anderson/LI/squadmates (of course not all of them) and be shot by squadmates. Critical Mission Failure.

III) Synthesis was chosen
III.1) With High EMS
You see Shepard (maybe with reaper eyes?) in London approaching Anderson and squadmates. After an
autodialogue, where  Shepard tries to subtly convince his allies to do
something that would jeapardize the mission Anderson/LI/squadmate are
pointing these flaws out, and Shepard would come to a logic loop, such
as Saren/TIM. Shepard retains his will for a brief moment, to have the
opportunity to shoot him/herself TIM/Saren-style. Critical Mission
Failure.

III.2) With Mid EMS
You see Shepard (maybe with reaper eyes?) in London approaching Anderson and squadmates. After an
autodialogue, where  Shepard tries to subtly convince his allies to do
something that would jeapardize the mission Anderson/LI/squadmate are
pointing these flaws out, and Shepard would come to a logic loop, such
as Saren/TIM. Getting mad, Shepard would go into a full rampage and kill
Anderson/LI/squadmates (of course not all of them) and be shot by
squadmates. Critical Mission Failure.

III.3) With Low EMS
Shepard is a husk and is shot by LI/squadmate. Critical Mission Failure.

IV) Refuse was chosen
I have to admit, this is the wildcard. Personally I would favor Refuse of the Control/Synthesis, so I guess in High EMS at least, there should be the possibility to play as Shepard.

Conclusion:
What I think is the advantage of this kind of approach is that we still have Shepard and the other beloved characters. You do not totally change the subject of the series (win over the reapers against all odds )and the choices at the end of ME3 did matter (and not only Destroy choosers would be able to continue to play). My short concept of how the end of the series should not be made by a choice at the end, but rather by an interweaving of the different endings throughout the different relevant story arcs.

[TheWill]

i thnk they took away the option to kill her i me2 so you could see the effects in me3... letting you know that almost anybody you thought may be indocrinated can become a danger..an important lesson many have yet to learn....

[RavenEyry]

D.Sharrah wrote...

I've said before that the game did a very good job of getting me confused enough with the final choice that I picked synthesis

Me too. I picked it because A) I wanted to see what the hybrids looked like and Because it was the third option. Taking the third option is always best right? Right?

[Restrider]

Home run MF wrote...

I'm not so sure about that, I mean listen to both of her conversations, the background sounds seem to tell something is definitely wrong. 

I actually like Rana, sad that she goes crazy .
She is one of my favourite sidecharacter asari, next to naughty Shiala of course.

[Restrider]

Just read this:
More on the red herring and Coats front:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/14176038

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Hmm little question here.

How many of you trusted EDI in ME2, at least near the start of the game? We know by now that she is trustworthy, but would like to hear who harbored supicions against her at the start.

I for one was actually suprised she never even seemed to turn on us and i think that came from the effective way ME1 had painted AI and how that picture is turned upside down in ME2.

[TheConstantOne]

Restrider wrote...

*snip*

Conclusion:
What I think is the advantage of this kind of approach is that we still have Shepard and the other beloved characters. You do not totally change the subject of the series (win over the reapers against all odds )and the choices at the end of ME3 did matter (and not only Destroy choosers would be able to continue to play). My short concept of how the end of the series should not be made by a choice at the end, but rather by an interweaving of the different endings throughout the different relevant story arcs.

I agree that we either need Shepard or we need a way to feel the consequences of our choices throughout any following game.  Experiencing how our decisions play out is part of what makes ME the great series it is.

You have some great ideas.  I'd be inclined to think that what you're saying wouldn't happen at the beginning of ME 4 though.  More like in an epilogue dlc for ME 3.  Else some people would import characters that could die after only a mission or two.

My personal opinion is that a new uber threat could work rather well if done properly.  Of course, that's just me.  My above post was intended to take place after any eiplogue dlc (I favor IT...the other ending descriptions are in the event that Bioware allows the literal versions to stick around.)

[RavenEyry]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Hmm little question here.

How many of you trusted EDI in ME2, at least near the start of the game? We know by now that she is trustworthy, but would like to hear who harbored supicions against her at the start.

I for one was actually suprised she never even seemed to turn on us and i think that came from the effective way ME1 had painted AI and how that picture is turned upside down in ME2.

I guessed she'd be plot important because of all the AIs in one, though I couldn't guess in what way.

[RavenEyry]

Restrider wrote...

Just read this:
More on the red herring and Coats front:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/14176038

Ugh. I really, really hate it when people call IT fanfiction because the term just does not apply in any way.

[D.Sharrah]

@Restrider: I think the problem with your scenarios is that too many of the options lead to "Game Over" by the end of the intro level...if that's the case, why not just have those as non-importable states? I think if you go with a sequel that immediately follows ME 3, you would almost have to do two seperate games - one for the united galactic hero storyline and for the indoctrinated agent storyline. Which to me sounds really appealling...but more as an expansion pack than as a whole new game.