80611 réponses à ce sujet

[plfranke]

I'm just saying what they argue, not that I support it lol. The Catalyst's explanation of the Crucible doesn't make any sense in the EC. The Catalyst is supposed to be what powers the Crucible, yet he says the Crucible is a power source.

I've always been very vocal on how ridiculous it is that no one knows what the Crucible does. I mean come on, the dimensions sync up perfectly with the Citadel, but none of the top researchers and scientists could put that together?

[ThisOneIsPunny]

RavenEyry wrote...

plfranke wrote...

The literal argument against this is that the Catalyst was not aware of these possibilities until the Crucible changed it.

That's what my second line was about. If the crucible is just a power source that means the actual device was designed with the citadel. Mr. Sparkle sat there for gajillions of years without ever figuring out what that thing did, but knows as soon as it's powered?

Which means he wasn't changed at all, because those three options have been sitting around forever without the means to power them. I mean the crucible didn't MAKE the decision chamber on the citadel and if it's always been there, then that means the reapers made it with the original construction of the citadel.

[GethPrimeMKII]

RavenEyry wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...
Whats even more interesting are elements that break the 4th wall and closely resemble things only the player would be able to interpret. 

I know the colour choice and the dialog wheel set up. Are there others?

Thats all I know as well. But those two are huge and should immediately jump out at everyone. 

[Lokanaiya]

Am I the only one who feels like facepalming every time someone talks about how "the Crucible changed the Catalyst?"

[DoomsdayDevice]

Yeah, the whole crucible story is bizarre..

It's all at the same time:

- A crude device
- Just a huge battery
- A device that can change the DNA of the entire galaxy
- A device that can wipe out all synthetic lifeforms
- A device that lets you become an immortal AI that rules the Reapers

Yeah, some crude device... It. does.not.make.sense, EC or no.

And if the Crucible is 'just the battery' and the citadel has those powers, it makes even less sense. Why didn't the Reapers just build the battery if they want synthesis so badly?

And if the catalyst is the one capable of doing these things, how does a huge battery change what he can do? And again, why didn't the Reapers build this battery?

Oh right, the most advanced and intelligent lifeform, that considers itself the pinnacle of evolution didn't know it was possible.

SEEMS. LEGIT.

But a catalyst, by definition, does not change, no matter how well built the battery is. Unless   "BIOWARE DUZNT KNOW WUT DA HELL A CATLYST IS LAWL"

plfranke wrote...

Something interesting about overlord is no mater what you do, the game beats you over the head with "this was a terrible thing to do". There is no "the ends justify the means" way of thinking about Overlord. If you allow Dr. Archer to continue the studies, there is no progress made in fighting the geth. Dr. Archer stops the expirement himself if you don't. The game, in many places, says how horrible Synthesis would be. Javik talks about the people that tried it from his cycle, Overlord, we already know about the Reapers and their path to synthesis. It's the same with how the game beats you over the head with "You can't control the Reapers". I don't see how people can ignore all these things that were established just because a last minute character who admits he embodies everything you've been fighting against tells them it's cool.

What baffles me is that every player, renegade or paragon, has to go through that conversation with TIM and convince him that he is indoctrinated for thinking he can control the Reapers... and yet two minutes later, sooooooooooo many pick control, just because this kid tells them that it's okay! Are you kidding me?

"Hey Shep! TIM can't control us, because we control him! But you can! Because you're awesome and special!"

SEEMS. LEGIT.

And even when people don't pick control, sooooooo many of them are thinking the choices are legit, and have to be taken at face value.

I just can't wrap my mind around the literal interpretation, I just can't. IT makes so much god damn sense, it's not even funny.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 21 septembre 2012 - 01:48 .

[plfranke]

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

plfranke wrote...

The literal argument against this is that the Catalyst was not aware of these possibilities until the Crucible changed it.

That's what my second line was about. If the crucible is just a power source that means the actual device was designed with the citadel. Mr. Sparkle sat there for gajillions of years without ever figuring out what that thing did, but knows as soon as it's powered?

Which means he wasn't changed at all, because those three options have been sitting around forever without the means to power them. I mean the crucible didn't MAKE the decision chamber on the citadel and if it's always been there, then that means the reapers made it with the original construction of the citadel.

However, whatever the decision chamber may have been, could have been completely changed by the Crucible. They didn't have to necessarily make the Citadel with destroy, control and synthesis in mind. For instance, say someone wants to build a house so they start putting together a big pile of wood. Then all of a sudden comes a guy in a cold night and uses the wood to make a fire. The person who put the pile of wood there didn't intend for it to be used to make a fire, a cleansing fire, if you will.

[RavenEyry]

And of course another problem of it being 'just a huge battery' is the many non-battery like components in the war assets. I believe it was bleedinguranium that made a good list of them a short while back.

[ElSuperGecko]

So then, Synthesis (again).

The implication is in the Extended Cut DLC that the Synthesis process doesn't in fact turn the entire galaxy into mindless, husked drones, devoid of personality, individuality and emotion. We do, in fact, stay pretty much as we are, only now with the addition of glowing green eyes, wires and circuitry (YAY for glowing eyes, wires and circuitry!)

My question is: Where does this leave the Reapers?

If the Synthesis beam affects EVERY living being in the galaxy, then it affects the Reapers too. Is each Reaper now an individual (or the combined conciousness of the species it was created from?) are they now unshacked? Free from external influence? Are they no longer controlled?

Because if this is the case, it's a pretty terrifying prospect.

We know from the From Ashes DLC that the Protheans were not the belevolent forefathers they were originally assumed to be. There is no guarantee that the indivdual species that the Reapers were created from will by sympathetic towards the species of this cycle. There's no telling HOW the newly synthesized and unshackled Reapers will react, if they each have individuality and free will, without the Catalyst's (flawed) logic and reasoning guiding their actions. They could be a benevolent source of information and lore. They could enslave the other races. Continue their original programming. Engage in a civil war. Go insane. Abandon this galaxy altogether.

What we DO know is that in Synthesis, the Reapers survive - and they survive as the most powerful and deadly individual beings in the galaxy. A single Reaper can level a city, destroy a fleet, or indoctrinate a world's population.

And if that was the case, how exactly could we stop them?

[plfranke]

RavenEyry wrote...

And of course another problem of it being 'just a huge battery' is the many non-battery like components in the war assets. I believe it was bleedinguranium that made a good list of them a short while back.

Yeah, there's even one that says it's meant to work with the Crucible's main power source. How does a power source require things to work with its main power source?

[RavenEyry]

plfranke wrote...
However, whatever the decision chamber may have been, could have been completely changed by the Crucible. They didn't have to necessarily make the Citadel with destroy, control and synthesis in mind. For instance, say someone wants to build a house so they start putting together a big pile of wood. Then all of a sudden comes a guy in a cold night and uses the wood to make a fire. The person who put the pile of wood there didn't intend for it to be used to make a fire, a cleansing fire, if you will.

So the citadel builders (either leviathans or reapers) left a load of random junk around that just happens to have three radically different and unbelievable abilities when powered?

I really feel that is reaching.

[RavenEyry]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

My question is: Where does this leave the Reapers?

My usual description is "their hearts grew three times in size"

[plfranke]

RavenEyry wrote...

plfranke wrote...
However, whatever the decision chamber may have been, could have been completely changed by the Crucible. They didn't have to necessarily make the Citadel with destroy, control and synthesis in mind. For instance, say someone wants to build a house so they start putting together a big pile of wood. Then all of a sudden comes a guy in a cold night and uses the wood to make a fire. The person who put the pile of wood there didn't intend for it to be used to make a fire, a cleansing fire, if you will.

So the citadel builders (either leviathans or reapers) left a load of random junk around that just happens to have three radically different and unbelievable abilities when powered?

I really feel that is reaching.

Literalists don't apparently. I don't know what to say, I mean it's incredibly idiotic to me, but some people seem to believe it.

[RavenEyry]

I found the crucible made a lot more sense BEFORE it was 'clarified' as a power source. (Still didn't make much sense, but more than now)

[ThisOneIsPunny]

plfranke wrote...

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

Which means he wasn't changed at all, because those three options have been sitting around forever without the means to power them. I mean the crucible didn't MAKE the decision chamber on the citadel and if it's always been there, then that means the reapers made it with the original construction of the citadel.

However, whatever the decision chamber may have been, could have been completely changed by the Crucible. They didn't have to necessarily make the Citadel with destroy, control and synthesis in mind. For instance, say someone wants to build a house so they start putting together a big pile of wood. Then all of a sudden comes a guy in a cold night and uses the wood to make a fire. The person who put the pile of wood there didn't intend for it to be used to make a fire, a cleansing fire, if you will.

I can't imagine there was much tweeking needed to suddenly become the choices they did. Especially since starbinger insists it's just a power source, but i do get what you mean. I just can't see the decision chamber being mundane before the crucible docks.
-eyes narrow- I see what you did there..

[ElSuperGecko]

RavenEyry wrote...
My usual description is "their hearts grew three times in size"

LOL!  Bless the Reapy The Friendly Reaper.  I've seen that rather desperate "La La La Rainbows, Clouds and Pink Fluffy Synth-Happiness" theory around.

Either the Synthesis process completely strips away individuality, emotion and the concept of self, or it does not.  if it does not, then conflict is inevitable, Synthesis be damned.  And if conflict is inevitable, then the Reapers have a clear and rather overwhelming advantage...

[ThisOneIsPunny]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...
My usual description is "their hearts grew three times in size"

LOL!  Bless the Reapy The Friendly Reaper.  I've seen that rather desperate "La La La Rainbows, Clouds and Pink Fluffy Synth-Happiness" theory around.

Either the Synthesis process completely strips away individuality, emotion and the concept of self, or it does not.  if it does not, then conflict is inevitable, Synthesis be damned.  And if conflict is inevitable, then the Reapers have a clear and rather overwhelming advantage...

Moreso with the Leviathans also synthesized, now they have indoctrination and enthralling while the rest of galaxy has
RAINBOWSFLOWERS~*`~*UNDERSTANDING*~`*~RAINBOWSFLOWERS

Modifié par ThisOneIsPunny, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:12 .

[spotlessvoid]

ITFTW!

[Dwailing]

So, anyone here? Any discussion going on? Shepard?

[GethPrimeMKII]

All this talk of rainbow flowers and understanding just killed the thread.

[RavenEyry]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

All this talk of rainbow flowers and understanding just killed the thread.

SYNTHESIS! *waves fist at ceiling*

[Restrider]

So, I've been thinking.
Why is the last needed piece called the Catalyst?
Each major plot device/location had kind of a fitting name:
-the Conduit
-the Citadel
-the Crucible
-the Collectors
-the Reapers
.
.
.
-the Catalyst

The Catalyst, if it truly would start catalysis, would accelerate/start some kind of reaction, it would boost it. Since the Catalyst enables the choices we have, it kind of makes sense.
Now, here is the fun part:
Usually, a catalyst remains unaltered and endures the chemical reaction it started. It takes part during the reaction, but you regain it in equal numbers (if it is being consumed, it is a reagent not a catalyst):

X + C → XC      (1)
Y + XC → XYC (2)
XYC → CZ        (3)
CZ → C + Z      (4)
X + Y → Z (net)

Of course, in reality, you have always some kind of consumption regarding the catalyst, but as it is used in high dilution/low concentration/low amounts being able to catalyze a lot of reaction cycles, to call something a catalyst, it has to endure a lot.

What does this mean for the ME Catalyst?
Well, as stated above, it starts a reaction, but would it be far-fetched, if it remained unaltered?
This is especially interesting if you take Control. Do you really think the Catalyst is replaced knowing the definition of a Catalyst?

Edit: Formating.

Modifié par Restrider, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:00 .

[RavenEyry]

It's possible Mr. Sparkle is not the catalyst even if it is real. The only 'proof' is that it says so.

[Restrider]

RavenEyry wrote...

It's possible Mr. Sparkle is not the catalyst even if it is real. The only 'proof' is that it says so.

Yeah, I always thought that he cannot be trusted. For all we know, the Citadel is the Catalyst and that would make a lot more sense than some fishy AI.

[DoomsdayDevice]

[FifthBeatle]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Bravo!