80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Rob Psyence]

I had kind of an interesting thought before going to sleep: With the Leviathan dlc...you know what happens if you pick synthesis at the end? The synthetic Reapers, made in the Leviathan's image would merge with the organic originals wouldn't that have been one of Harbinger's main objectives?

It's me stating the obvious but I thought I'd bring it up anyway.

[Dwailing]

Restrider wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

It's possible Mr. Sparkle is not the catalyst even if it is real. The only 'proof' is that it says so.

Yeah, I always thought that he cannot be trusted. For all we know, the Citadel is the Catalyst and that would make a lot more sense than some fishy AI.

My personal hypothesis is that the actual "Intelligence" that was designed by the Leviathans is in dark space in the relay that connects to the Citadel (There has to be one).  What we see is an illusion, created as part of the indoctrination/enthrallment hallucination.  At some point, one of the cycles discovered the existence of the Intelligence, and either created or modified the Crucible to destroy the Intelligence.  The reason that it uses the Citadel as the Catalyst is simple: it's easier to use the connecting relay to aim the pulse that would destroy the Intelligence.

Also, since I have a captive audience, I want to share something that popped into my head a little while ago (I don't remember exactly when this came to me).  Remember when Leviathan mentions that the Reapers improved on enthrallment?  Well, we know that indoctrination was part of the product of that improvement, but I'll bet that before they perfected indoctrination, they improved regular enthrallment.  And what better way to improve enthrallment than to put the subject into some kind of hallucinatory world OTHER than just cold blackness?  I.E. What we see in the endings.

[DoomsdayDevice]

My theory is that the fabled AI that the Leviathans are talking about is in fact none other than the entity we know as Harbinger.

Think about it, Harbinger is the leader of the Reapers.

So whether the ending is a hallucination or no, you're talking to some projection of Harbinger. The best lies are the ones that contain a lot of truth.

Harbinger = synthesis of the AI and the 'essence' of the Leviathans.

The AI isn't on the citadel, it isn't in dark space, it's talking to you all the time in Mass Effect 2.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:47 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

And you know what, following up on that idea... if the AI controls the Reapers, and is in fact Harbinger, then it could very well be that the rest of the Reapers are his thralls.

Remember how the Reaper on Rannoch dies when you tell him that the species he was made from died thousands of years ago?

As if the spell was broken by saying that.

So, beating Harbinger, would mean beating / freeing the Reapers.

Harbinger = Leviathans' essence synthesized with the AI.

Rest of the Reapers = Harbinger thralls.

Kill Harbinger, end Reaper threat.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:56 .

[Rob Psyence]

I'm pretty sure the thralls are the husks and repurposed organic races. The other reapers are just separate, replicated synthetic platforms like the geth.

[RavenEyry]

Possible, but it seems like an anticlimax to just kill one reaper and that makes them all die.

[spotlessvoid]

If the Reapers are the collective consciousness of their species then You'd think there would be some rebelling going on. My guess is AI/HARBINGER is physically in control, or their "consciousness" is a synthetic program, or the Reapers themselves are indoctrinated by AI/Harbinger

[shepskisaac]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

My theory is that the fabled AI that the Leviathans are talking about is in fact none other than the entity we know as Harbinger.

Irhm what? It's the Catalyst

[DoomsdayDevice]

RavenEyry wrote...

Possible, but it seems like an anticlimax to just kill one reaper and that makes them all die.

I agree, but it wouldn't surprise me if this was the case.

[Eryri]

RavenEyry wrote...

Possible, but it seems like an anticlimax to just kill one reaper and that makes them all die.

You make that sound so easy.

Seriously though, I'm quite keen on the "psychic plane boss battle" that quite a few ITers were expecting way back before the EC. Shepard purges Harbinger from his mind by having a Neo vs Agent Smith style fight in some nightmarish environment, like the dream forest.

Harby takes the form of a mirror image Shepard with Shepard's abilities. Shep kicks Harby's ass, the shock of which makes him lose control of the other Reapers who promptly turn on him and blow him to kingdom come. 

If handled well, it could be a good way to give us a direct Shepard Vs Harbinger boss fight, which lets face it would be pretty unlikely in the "real world".

[RavenEyry]

IsaacShep wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

My theory is that the fabled AI that the Leviathans are talking about is in fact none other than the entity we know as Harbinger.

Irhm what? It's the Catalyst

Ihrm what? How do you know that?

[FifthBeatle]

IsaacShep wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

My theory is that the fabled AI that the Leviathans are talking about is in fact none other than the entity we know as Harbinger.

Irhm what? It's the Catalyst

Well, it sounds like you mean that the Catalyst is the Starchild, but Doomsday means that the Starchild is actually Harbinger, so... 

Personally, I couldn't agree more that the Leviathan's AI was turned into Harbinger and that the Starchild is Harbinger's best attempt at indoctrinating Shep. 

[shepskisaac]

RavenEyry wrote...

Ihrm what? How do you know that?

Because Leviathans told us there's that AI that created the solution and created the Reapers (incl. Harby) and then the Catalyst tells us he did the same things?

Modifié par IsaacShep, 21 septembre 2012 - 05:47 .

[RavenEyry]

IsaacShep wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Ihrm what? How do you know that?

Because Leviathans told us there's that AI that created the solution and created the Reapers (incl. Harby) and then the Catalyst tells us he did the same things?

And there is an undeniable inherant truth in everything the image that claims to be the catalyst says. And everything the leviathans say.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

I have said it before, but I will do again.

I do not like the idea of Harbinger beeing some sort of master control unit for the Reapers. First of it would be a massive tactical flaw and danger to the entire Cycle if true.

I mean as we see from the ME3 battle for Earth Harbinger dosent exactly steer clear of the front lines and despite the Reapers strength they are not invincible. Random coincedence of 3 Dreadnoughts focusing his ass could result in the end of the cycle, not even mentioning past cycles. Imagine if that blast which struck dead the derelict Reaper had hit Harbinger by coincedence, bam, cycle over.

Just seesm like far to big a weakness for someone as calculating and control focused as the Reapers.

Secondly if it released all the other Reapers then what? Are they suddenly good guys, free of all guilt and sin for the triillions they helped slaughter? What will happen to them?

If it shut them down...well see the bit about massive flaw.

Most importantly though it would degrade them as villians. Suddenly it is the work of one beeing and not a collective goal like we are led to believe (one of my main problems with mister Catalyst as well <_<)

However I do believe some mesaure of control is taking place or is programmed into the reapers during their creation, kinda like Indoctriantion. It gives the Reapers their unwavering belief in the necesity of the cycle, but they are still Individuals(ish) beyond that. Like Sovereign.

But it is not the kind with an origin signal or source beyond the Reaper itself.

Do I know how we then are gonna beat the Reapers? No, I dont. But a magical swicth off button like destroying Harbinger would degrade them and also raise too many questions. It would also be too easy for a threat of this scale.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 21 septembre 2012 - 06:03 .

[estebanus]

Hey there. What's up?

[Eryri]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I have said it before, but I will do again.

I do not like the idea of Harbinger beeing some sort of master control unit for the Reapers. First of it would be a massive tactical flaw and danger to the entire Cycle if true.

I mean as we see from the ME3 battle for Earth Harbinger dosent exactly steer clear of the front lines and despite the Reapers strength they are not invincible. Random coincedence of 3 Dreadnoughts focusing his ass could result in the end of the cycle, not even mentioning past cycles. Imagine if that blast which struck dead the derelict Reaper had hit Harbinger by coincedence, bam, cycle over.

Just seesm like far to big a weakness for someone as calculating and control focused as the Reapers.

Secondly if it released all the other Reapers then what? Are they suddenly good guys, free of all guilt and sin for the triillions they helped slaughter? What will happen to them?

If it shut them down...well see the bit about massive flaw.

Most importantly though it would degrade them as villians. Suddenly it is the work of one beeing and not a collective goal like we are led to believe (one of my main problems with mister Catalyst as well <_<)

However I do believe some mesaure of control is taking place or is programmed into the reapers during their creation, kinda like Indoctriantion. It gives the Reapers their unwavering belief in the necesity of the cycle, but they are still Individuals(ish) beyond that. Like Sovereign.

But it is not the kind with an origin signal or source beyond the Reaper itself.

Do I know how we then are gonna beat the Reapers? No, I dont. But a magical swicth off button like destroying Harbinger would degrade them and also raise too many questions. It would also be too easy for a threat of this scale.

I realise there's flaws with the idea - and I'm by no means married to it, if a better idea turns up. I really liked your idea of the Crucible + Citadel opening a portal to Dark Space and then taking out the Reaper's home base. That could be absolutely epic.

[Eryri]

estebanus wrote...

Hey there. What's up?

Hi Estebanus / Estebanusister (delete as applicable). Some funny literalist bashing on the last couple of pages. Otherwise not much news.

[estebanus]

Eryri wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Hey there. What's up?

Hi  Estebanusister. Some funny literalist bashing on the last couple of pages. Otherwise not much news.

I see. Back to playing GW 2, then!

[shepskisaac]

RavenEyry wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Ihrm what? How do you know that?

Because Leviathans told us there's that AI that created the solution and created the Reapers (incl. Harby) and then the Catalyst tells us he did the same things?

And there is an undeniable inherant truth in everything the image that claims to be the catalyst says. And everything the leviathans say.

There's no indication in the dialogues why it wouldn't be the truth

[Eryri]

IsaacShep wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Ihrm what? How do you know that?

Because Leviathans told us there's that AI that created the solution and created the Reapers (incl. Harby) and then the Catalyst tells us he did the same things?

And there is an undeniable inherant truth in everything the image that claims to be the catalyst says. And everything the leviathans say.

There's no indication in the dialogues why it wouldn't be the truth

Apart from the fact that they're both, you know, evil.

[BansheeOwnage]

IsaacShep wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Ihrm what? How do you know that?

Because Leviathans told us there's that AI that created the solution and created the Reapers (incl. Harby) and then the Catalyst tells us he did the same things?

And there is an undeniable inherant truth in everything the image that claims to be the catalyst says. And everything the leviathans say.

There's no indication in the dialogues why it wouldn't be the truth

There is actually. I guess you just don't understand subtleties and basic psychology. Queue attack on me about how that's not true and I'm missing the point.

Hello everyone!

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 21 septembre 2012 - 06:42 .

[shepskisaac]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

There is actually.

Such as?

[BansheeOwnage]

IsaacShep wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

There is actually.

Such as?

I just got here, so I'm not 100% sure if you're talking about the "Catalyst" or leviathan. Which?

[Eryri]

IsaacShep wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

There is actually.

Such as?

Well there is the way Leviathan assumes the form of the fake Garneux when discussing the Crucible, a form associated with deception. And the way the camera makes a point of showing Garneux's shifty expression and little pause when Shepard asks him directly about it.

Also Leviathan never refers to their creation as "the Catalyst" by name but rather as "the intelligence".

Finally we have the fact that the Leviathans practiced slavery as a way of life, and thus are morally bankrupt.

I conceed that the Leviathans could be telling the truth, but I don't find them particularly trustworthy.

Modifié par Eryri, 21 septembre 2012 - 06:57 .