80611 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

Eryri wrote...

Also Leviathan never refers to their creation as "the Catalyst" but rather as an "intelligence".

But it is obvious to everyone really that it's the same thing.

Eryri wrote...

Finally we have the fact that the Leviathans practiced slavery as a way of life, and thus are morally bankrupt.

Yes but that doesn't indicate which/if any parts of what he says are untrue.

[BansheeOwnage]

Eryri wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

There is actually.

Such as?

Well there is the way Leviathan assumes the form of the fake Garneux when discussing the Crucible, a form associated with deception. And the way the camera makes a point of showing Garneux's shifty expression and little pause when Shepard asks him directly about it.

Also Leviathan never refers to their creation as "the Catalyst" but rather as an "intelligence".

Finally we have the fact that the Leviathans practiced slavery as a way of life, and thus are morally bankrupt.

That covers a lot of it. I would say that most of what the leviathan says is true, albeit slightly exaggerated and tainted by their arrogance.

[BansheeOwnage]

IsaacShep wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Also Leviathan never refers to their creation as "the Catalyst" but rather as an "intelligence".

But it is obvious to everyone really that it's the same thing.

Eryri wrote...

Finally we have the fact that the Leviathans practiced slavery as a way of life, and thus are morally bankrupt.

Yes but that doesn't indicate which/if any parts of what he says are untrue.

1. When someone uses many absolutes, they lose credibility. Much like the reapers. They love absolutes. Think about Sovereign.
2. If it was "obvious to everyone" we wouldn't be arguing it.
3. If it was the same thing, why not say so. They know they're looking for the "catalyst".
4. It's a general feeling un distrust, not pointing to anything in particular. It calls the validity of all of what he says into question.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:02 .

[TheConstantOne]

The idea of the Intelligence being housed on a Citadel station in dark space is interesting...there is a big problem with this though: If there is a Citadel relay in dark space, why not make it the center of the network and shut down the relays from there?

I'm beginning to susepct that the Intelligence is a being that can turn itself into a mass relay. In essence it could generate its own powerful mass effect fields. This would have allowed it to move its minions along with it in the days before the mass relays. Because of these abilities, the Intelligence could serve as an anchor for the Citadel relay to link to.

On a side note, does anyone think we'll run into the mysterious "Keeper 20" mentioned in LotSB anytime soon?

[spotlessvoid]

I hate the idea that a Reaper is the collective consciousness of the harvested race. I just refuse to believe Reaper paste is sentient. You break an organic down into slime and there's no mental processes continuing to occur. That's just impossibly ludicrous.
The fact that the Reaper Brain is repurposed as a computational device for the crucible implies Reapers have a synthetic minds. It may be a consensus of programs, but it isn't a collective consciousness of organic minds.

[TheConstantOne]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Eryri wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

There is actually.

Such as?

Well there is the way Leviathan assumes the form of the fake Garneux when discussing the Crucible, a form associated with deception. And the way the camera makes a point of showing Garneux's shifty expression and little pause when Shepard asks him directly about it.

Also Leviathan never refers to their creation as "the Catalyst" but rather as an "intelligence".

Finally we have the fact that the Leviathans practiced slavery as a way of life, and thus are morally bankrupt.

That covers a lot of it. I would say that most of what the leviathan says is true, albeit slightly exaggerated and tainted by their arrogance.

Exactly.  I think that the Leviathan tells us a self biased truth.  Similarly, I think the Star Child also reveals mostly true information but misconstrues it in an attempt to indoctrinate you

[Eryri]

IsaacShep wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Also Leviathan never refers to their creation as "the Catalyst" but rather as an "intelligence".

But it is obvious to everyone really that it's the same thing.

Granted, at face value he's the most likely candidate. However there is wiggle room, as the Intelligence is never specifically named. 

Additionally its not clear that the glowing brat is in fact "the Catalyst" that we've been searching for. We already had one big twist when Vendetta revealed that the Catalyst was the Citadel.

Then 10 minutes before the end we get yet another twist - the Citadel is not the Catalyst - this blue glowing thing we've just met is. From a purely story telling stand point, that's one twist too many. It strains credulity. Especially as it claims to be the mouthpiece of the Reapers - a species not know for their honesty.

[shepskisaac]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

1. When someone uses many absolutes, they lose credibility. Much like the reapers. They love absolutes. Think about Sovereign.
2. If it was "obvious to everyone" we wouldn't be arguing it.
3. If it was the same thing, why not say so. They know they're looking for the "catalyst".
4. It's a general feeling un distrust, not pointing to anything in particular. It calls the validity of all of what he says into question.

But what would be the story point of Harby pretending to be the Intelligence? One bad guy pretending to be another bad guy who follows the same plan. It's pointless

[BansheeOwnage]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I hate the idea that a Reaper is the collective consciousness of the harvested race. I just refuse to believe Reaper paste is sentient. You break an organic down into slime and there's no mental processes continuing to occur. That's just impossibly ludicrous.
The fact that the Reaper Brain is repurposed as a computational device for the crucible implies Reapers have a synthetic minds. It may be a consensus of programs, but it isn't a collective consciousness of organic minds.

It doesn't matter if the organic part of them is alive or not; we only have to kill them. Regardless, the main point of any antagonist is that they're wrong. In this case, they opertate on the assumption that the organic paste is sentient even though it isn't.

End of lunchtime; got to go now.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:09 .

[Bill Casey]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

3. If it was the same thing, why not say so. They know they're looking for the "catalyst".

Because it would break the story...
Shepard is not supposed to know what the Catalyst is until Vendetta tells him it's the Citadel...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:11 .

[TheConstantOne]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I hate the idea that a Reaper is the collective consciousness of the harvested race. I just refuse to believe Reaper paste is sentient. You break an organic down into slime and there's no mental processes continuing to occur. That's just impossibly ludicrous.
The fact that the Reaper Brain is repurposed as a computational device for the crucible implies Reapers have a synthetic minds. It may be a consensus of programs, but it isn't a collective consciousness of organic minds.

True. But this is again, I think, a slanted truth to paint the image of some glorious existence within a Reaper that Star Child uses to try and make them seem benevolent.  But it is technically telling the truth:  a Reaper consists of many, many synthetic programs, hence a collective consciousness. BUT the structure that it is housed in actively uses the genetics of species, thus a Reaper is a form of the harvested race.

So what Star Child says is true...just terribly and intentionally misleading

[Eryri]

IsaacShep wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

1. When someone uses many absolutes, they lose credibility. Much like the reapers. They love absolutes. Think about Sovereign.
2. If it was "obvious to everyone" we wouldn't be arguing it.
3. If it was the same thing, why not say so. They know they're looking for the "catalyst".
4. It's a general feeling un distrust, not pointing to anything in particular. It calls the validity of all of what he says into question.

But what would be the story point of Harby pretending to be the Intelligence? One bad guy pretending to be another bad guy who follows the same plan. It's pointless

Apparently not, as many of the posters on other threads seem to believe that Catalyst is not evil at all, but merely a mis-programmed AI trying to fulfil a noble objective in a deeply ignoble way. There's even an "I support the Catalyst Thread" - which I think is dangerously close to Stockholm syndrome. Indoctrinating the player indeed.

The point being they trust that the Catalyst is being sincere in its attemps to extol the virtues of Synthesis and so choose it. Despite the fact that it's exactly what Saren and Kai Leng wanted. It also destroys the series' theme that diversity is a good thing and different kinds of people can get along just fine with a little understanding.

Modifié par Eryri, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:19 .

[shepskisaac]

Bill Casey wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

3. If it was the same thing, why not say so. They know they're looking for the "catalyst".

Because it would break the story...
Shepard is not supposed to know what the Catalyst is...

It ain't like Leviathans would know where or what the Catalyst is anyway. I mean, the Intelligence didn't contact them "hi, I ordered Reapers to build the Citadel where I will transfer myself and coordinate mass relays, thoguht you should know that"

[TheConstantOne]

Bill Casey wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

3. If it was the same thing, why not say so. They know they're looking for the "catalyst".

Because it would break the story...
Shepard is not supposed to know what the Catalyst is until Vendetta tells him it's the Citadel...

It is also possible that the Leviathans don't know how the Crucible is supposed to precisely work.  If this is the case, they may not even be aware that we require a Catalyst

[Bill Casey]

TheConstantOne wrote...

So what Star Child says is true...just terribly and intentionally misleading

"We have tried a... similar solution in the past..."


That's a hell of a pause for a quantum intelligence...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:14 .

[spotlessvoid]

Well I thinks it's important because if Reaper's mind is the collective consciousness of it's harvested races (indoctrinated or not) it means Harbinger isn't the AI, it's the Leviathan collective. However, if the information from Reaper paste is used to and shape an AI brain for Reapers, then the AI could definitely install itself in the Harbinger Reaper

[Bill Casey]

The Catalyst is also the collective consciousness of the Reapers...
He's a katamari ball of brain slurry...

[Eryri]

Bill Casey wrote...

The Catalyst is also the collective consciousness of the Reapers...
He's a katamari ball of brain slurry...

Which is another contradiction, as he existed before the Reapers. How can he be the Reapers collective conciousness, when there were no Reapers?

[spotlessvoid]

IsaacShep wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

1. When someone uses many absolutes, they lose credibility. Much like the reapers. They love absolutes. Think about Sovereign.
2. If it was "obvious to everyone" we wouldn't be arguing it.
3. If it was the same thing, why not say so. They know they're looking for the "catalyst".
4. It's a general feeling un distrust, not pointing to anything in particular. It calls the validity of all of what he says into question.

But what would be the story point of Harby pretending to be the Intelligence? One bad guy pretending to be another bad guy who follows the same plan. It's pointless

No. AI is like "oh I want to help stop the Reapers now Shepard"
harbinger is like "I'm going to totally ****ing pwn you Shepard"
Different motuvations

[shepskisaac]

Eryri wrote...

The point being they trust that the Catalyst is being sincere in its attemps to extol the virtues of Synthesis and so choose it. Despite the fact that it's exactly what Saren and Kai Leng wanted.

But why it can't be sincere? I mean, he was programmed with the assertion that conflict is inevitable so from his POV, synthesis is a good solution. Why shouldn't the 'villains' be sincere? Sincere does not automatiaclly mean good, just that he believes in what he says

Eryri wrote...
It also destroys the series' theme that diversity is a good thing and different kinds of people can get along just fine with a little understanding.

If you think so, just don't pick Synthesis, don't really see a problem here, you're not forced to agree with the Catalyst

[spotlessvoid]

Organics: Invented the crucible
Reapers: Derp
Leviathan: Derp
AI: Derp


Seems legit

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

IsaacShep wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

1. When someone uses many absolutes, they lose credibility. Much like the reapers. They love absolutes. Think about Sovereign.
2. If it was "obvious to everyone" we wouldn't be arguing it.
3. If it was the same thing, why not say so. They know they're looking for the "catalyst".
4. It's a general feeling un distrust, not pointing to anything in particular. It calls the validity of all of what he says into question.

But what would be the story point of Harby pretending to be the Intelligence? One bad guy pretending to be another bad guy who follows the same plan. It's pointless

Would you have believed the Catalyst had a holo of Harbinger appeared proclaiming he is the Catalyst and really an AI in the Citadel? I dont think so, or at least I wouldnt. Had Harbinger appeared there I would have listened, nodded and then, "yeah right, Harby" and blown out the tube. I still blew out the tube, but I was seriusly tempted by Synthesis for a few moments.

After all the things Harbinger said in ME2, his opinion on the organic species (dust to the cosmic winds) and his adviertesiment of uplifing species by making them a Reaper I doubt anyone would have believed him as benevolent (except people who had only played ME3)

[Restrider]

Eryri wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

The Catalyst is also the collective consciousness of the Reapers...
He's a katamari ball of brain slurry...

Which is another contradiction, as he existed before the Reapers. How can he be the Reapers collective conciousness, when there were no Reapers?

Maybe they merged?
You have at first the AI, creating the Reapers. And thus form some kind of consensus, since new programms are built and the AI becomes the avatar of all programms.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

IsaacShep wrote...

But why it can't be sincere? I mean, he was programmed with the assertion that conflict is inevitable so from his POV, synthesis is a good solution. Why shouldn't the 'villains' be sincere? Sincere does not automatiaclly mean good, just that he believes in what he says

Think about it this way. According to the Catalyst the Crucible is nothing but a battery meaning the possibilities of Destroy, Control, Synthesis was build into the Citadel.

Now if the Catalyst was truly out to protect organics from the evil synthetics as he say he could have created a power source, strapped it to the Citadel, retreated to dark space adn have some lowly Cannibal blow out the tube purging the Galaxy of all synthetic life when necesary.

Oh and dont even start on "he dident know the possibilities of the Crucible," he said it was a giant battery, he knew of its construction. Are we seriusly going to believe the Reapers never found a blueprint where the damn purpose and abilities of the device is on?

I do beleive the AI is stuck in a loop on how to preserve all organic life and the best lies are often coated in a layer of truth, but to believe that this is the solution we have because the Crucible, a battery, suddenly changed him is absurd.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:27 .

[spotlessvoid]

" I mean, he was programmed with the assertion that conflict is inevitable"

Uh, no. He was programmed to save organics from getting annihilated by synthetics. Sparkles thought up that "inevitable" crap all by himself

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:26 .