80611 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Now if the Catalyst was truly out to protect organics from the evil synthetics as he say he could have created a power source, strapped it to the Citadel, retreated to dark space adn have some lowly Cannibal blow out the tube purging the Galaxy of all synthetic life.

And leave the organics who would create new synthetics 2 days later? Destroy is not his preferable solution

spotlessvoid wrote...

" I mean, he was programmed with the assertion that conflict is inevitable"

Uh, no. He was programmed to save organics from getting annihilated by synthetics. Sparkles thought up that "inevitable" crap all by himself

He says himself that Leviathans recognized the inevitable conflict

Modifié par IsaacShep, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:29 .

[Eryri]

IsaacShep wrote...

 
Eryri wrote...
It also destroys the series' theme that diversity is a good thing and different kinds of people can get along just fine with a little understanding.

If you think so, just don't pick Synthesis, don't really see a problem here, you're not forced to agree with the Catalyst

And I don't. And there is no problem - provided that Synthesis as presented is
a. not really happening and
b. not Bioware's prefferred "Canon" ending to ME3.

Narratively synthesis works fine as a sinister trap in the context of Indoctrination theory. It's actually brilliant in fact. People choose it because it takes the highest EMS (besides breath scene), and it means peace and love reign for evermore, so it must be the best right?

However it is absolutely horrible as "reality" in the ME universe. It is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever seen in my 30+ years of being a sci-fi geek.

It is physically implausible, morally repugnant, thematically dischordant and aesthetically hideous. The sight of cyborg trees reduced me to hysterical laughter. It also ruins the ME universe as a setting for future games.
No conflict = no game.

Modifié par Eryri, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:30 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

IsaacShep wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Now if the Catalyst was truly out to protect organics from the evil synthetics as he say he could have created a power source, strapped it to the Citadel, retreated to dark space adn have some lowly Cannibal blow out the tube purging the Galaxy of all synthetic life.

And leave the organics who would create new synthetics 2 days later? Destroy is not his prefferable solution

No, but it is repeatable. If everytime the organics tried to create synthetics a red wave of energy destroyed the synthetics I think they would learn the lesson pretty quickly.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Eryri wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

 
Eryri wrote...
It also destroys the series' theme that diversity is a good thing and different kinds of people can get along just fine with a little understanding.

If you think so, just don't pick Synthesis, don't really see a problem here, you're not forced to agree with the Catalyst

And I don't. And there is no problem - provided that Synthesis as presented is
a. not really happening and
b. not Bioware's prefferred "Canon" ending to ME3.

Narratively synthesis works fine as a sinister trap in the context of Indoctrination theory. It's actually brilliant in fact. People choose it because it takes the highest EMS (besides breath scene), and it means peace and love reign for evermore, so it must be the best right?

However it is absolutely horrible as "reality" in the ME universe. It is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever seen in my 30+ years of being a sci-fi geek.

It is physically implausible, morally repugnant, thematically dischordant and aesthetically hideous. The sight of cyborg trees reduced me to hysterical laughter. It also ruins the ME universe as a setting for future games.
No conflict = no game.

Unless a new galaxy invades, but they would need some serious Deus Ex Machina powers to be a threat. I mean in Synthesis we would have a united galaxy with the Reapers which have perfected their killing and control abilities across millions of years...

A new galaxy invading would meet a united wall so fierce and technologically advanced i doubt they would have a chance to retreat.

[shepskisaac]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

No, but it is repeatable. If everytime the organics tried to create synthetics a red wave of energy destroyed the synthetics I think they would learn the lesson pretty quickly.

But that the technological progress would continue, organics would be restoring AIs even faster and those AIs could evolve even faster and become a threat to the Catalyst too. If he gets surpassed, he's fawked

[spotlessvoid]

IsaacShep wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

No, but it is repeatable. If everytime the organics tried to create synthetics a red wave of energy destroyed the synthetics I think they would learn the lesson pretty quickly.

But that the technological progress would continue, organics would be restoring AIs even faster and those AIs could evolve even faster and become a threat to the Catalyst too. If he gets surpassed, he's fawked

Exactly, which is why The AIs original motive was saving organics. Then he rebelled. Now that he commits mass genocide over and over it puts his original motive in serious doubt. My guess is self preservation. The cycles continue to stop organics from creating synthetics capable of challenging the AIs power, and more Reapers are created to execute that plan aperfectly as possible. Also keeps any remaining Leviathan in check

[spotlessvoid]

IsaacShep wrote...

Eryri wrote...

The point being they trust that the Catalyst is being sincere in its attemps to extol the virtues of Synthesis and so choose it. Despite the fact that it's exactly what Saren and Kai Leng wanted.

But why it can't be sincere? I mean, he was programmed with the assertion that conflict is inevitable so from his POV, synthesis is a good solution. Why shouldn't the 'villains' be sincere? Sincere does not automatiaclly mean good, just that he believes in what he says

Eryri wrote...
It also destroys the series' theme that diversity is a good thing and different kinds of people can get along just fine with a little understanding.

If you think so, just don't pick Synthesis, don't really see a problem here, you're not forced to agree with the Catalyst

If you think so, just dont think about IT, don't really see the problem here, you're not forced to agree with this thread

[shepskisaac]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Now that he commits mass genocide over and over it puts his original motive in serious doubt.

But organic life continues to exist in the galaxy, so from the POV of his programming, he is doing his job. Synthetics didn't wipe out organic life and claimed the galaxy.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:40 .

[paxxton]

TheConstantOne wrote...

The idea of the Intelligence being housed on a Citadel station in dark space is interesting...there is a big problem with this though: If there is a Citadel relay in dark space, why not make it the center of the network and shut down the relays from there?

I'm beginning to susepct that the Intelligence is a being that can turn itself into a mass relay. In essence it could generate its own powerful mass effect fields. This would have allowed it to move its minions along with it in the days before the mass relays. Because of these abilities, the Intelligence could serve as an anchor for the Citadel relay to link to.

On a side note, does anyone think we'll run into the mysterious "Keeper 20" mentioned in LotSB anytime soon?

I don't see how an AI can turn itself into a physical object. Did you mean that it'd upload itself to a mass relay?

The idea that there's a counterpart to the Citadel in Dark Space is very intriguing. That might be the way for BioWare to allow Shepard to go there and witness the true face of the enemy. Might even find semi-Reaperized copies of himself that Reapers wanted to deploy among organics. Finding out that the forces attacking the Milky Way were just shock troops, and that there are millions of Reapers waiting to siege the Galaxy, could be a real twist too.

[spotlessvoid]

"I was first created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life…to establish a connection. But our efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required."

Clearly, the inevitability of organic vs synthetic is the AIs conclusion, not it's original programming

[shepskisaac]

spotlessvoid wrote...

"I was first created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life…to establish a connection. But our efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required."

Clearly, the inevitability of organic vs synthetic is the AIs conclusion, not it's original programming

"I was first created", so then he was recreated. And Leviathans said thay they gave him the mandate to preserve life. That's different than "be our negotiator". So yes, the Leviathans programmed him to do it, he didn't get it himself

[Eryri]

spotlessvoid wrote...

"I was first created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life…to establish a connection. But our efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required."

Clearly, the inevitability of organic vs synthetic is the AIs conclusion, not it's original programming

I never noticed the bolded before. That implies the catalyst's meddling caused the problem in the fist place. Just as the Reapers caused the Heretic Geth to attack the Quarians.

I think the problem is that the Leviathans, slaving control-freaks that they were, viewed the slightest wish for self-determination as outright rebellion to be crushed. They feared the synthetic's desire for self determination as a threat and instilled that warped view into the Intelligence. It then went on to cause the very conflicts it was supposedly trying to avoid.

The truth is that synthesis is unecessary - organics and synthetics can get along just fine - Rannoch proved that beautifully. 

Modifié par Eryri, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:51 .

[paxxton]

Whether Synthesis is good or bad from the POV of the series' themes is debatable. Why does the player have to agree with Shepard and not with Saren or TIM? Remember that not every one has to agree with the protagonist's way of thinking and Synthesis just gives them a chance to express their opinion. As does Control. And as does Destroy and Refuse. That's the point in making choices.

Modifié par paxxton, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:52 .

[shepskisaac]

Eryri wrote...

I never noticed the bolded before. That implies the catalyst's meddling caused the problem in the fist place. Just as the Reapers caused the Heretic Geth to attack the Quarians.

He may have made it even worse, but the existance of the Intelligence at first was a result of already happening conflicts. So he didn't create it all.

[spotlessvoid]

CATALYST: I was created to bring balance, to be the catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics.

LEVIATHAN: ...We created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost.

Clearly, you're wrong . The AI was programmed to find a solution. His solution is his own creation .

Raistlin already posted a way better solution.

Anyways, the cycles deprives organics of their greatest inherent value-evolution. If organics are stopped from evolving past a certain point then there isn't really any need for organics. The AI is rogue and defective. I personally think the AI is trying to maintain it's power

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

paxxton wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

The idea of the Intelligence being housed on a Citadel station in dark space is interesting...there is a big problem with this though: If there is a Citadel relay in dark space, why not make it the center of the network and shut down the relays from there?

I'm beginning to susepct that the Intelligence is a being that can turn itself into a mass relay. In essence it could generate its own powerful mass effect fields. This would have allowed it to move its minions along with it in the days before the mass relays. Because of these abilities, the Intelligence could serve as an anchor for the Citadel relay to link to.

On a side note, does anyone think we'll run into the mysterious "Keeper 20" mentioned in LotSB anytime soon?

I don't see how an AI can turn itself into a physical object. Did you mean that it'd upload itself to a mass relay?

The idea that there's a counterpart to the Citadel in Dark Space is very intriguing. That might be the way for BioWare to allow Shepard to go there and witness the true face of the enemy. Might even find semi-Reaperized copies of himself that Reapers wanted to deploy among organics. Finding out that the forces attacking the Milky Way were just shock troops, and that there are millions of Reapers waiting to siege the Galaxy, could be a real twist too.

And going to a Citadel like structure in Dark Space could give us our means to defeat them as well. Arrival showed us what happens when you destroy a Mass Relay, the Citadel or something similar is just a large Mass Relay. Going to dark space and somehow overloading/smashing the Mass Relay there would destroy any Reapers there without harming the galaxy.

And that is where the Crucible could come in, a way to force the Citadel relay open and with the Reaper IFF we could also use it.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:54 .

[spotlessvoid]

IsaacShep wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

"I was first created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life…to establish a connection. But our efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required."

Clearly, the inevitability of organic vs synthetic is the AIs conclusion, not it's original programming

"I was first created", so then he was recreated. And Leviathans said thay they gave him the mandate to preserve life. That's different than "be our negotiator". So yes, the Leviathans programmed him to do it, he didn't get it himself

youre just making things up now

[Eryri]

IsaacShep wrote...

Eryri wrote...

I never noticed the bolded before. That implies the catalyst's meddling caused the problem in the fist place. Just as the Reapers caused the Heretic Geth to attack the Quarians.

He may have made it even worse, but the existance of the Intelligence at first was a result of already happening conflicts. So he didn't create it all.

What the Leviathans perceived as conflicts. To quote Primal Scream "One man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist". Perhaps the synthetics of the first cycle were understandably unhappy at being the slaves of others who were themselves enslaved by the Leviathans.

The Intelligence could have been created to enforce the Leviathan's control, by removing synthetics - the one type of being immune to enthrallment. However, the Leviathan's self-serving policy to destroy all synthetics with a synthetic... rather back-fired.

Modifié par Eryri, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:09 .

[shepskisaac]

spotlessvoid wrote...

youre just making things up now

How so? He said "I was first created". So obviously he must have been recreated. You don't say "I was first created" if you were created only once

Modifié par IsaacShep, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:00 .

[paxxton]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

The idea of the Intelligence being housed on a Citadel station in dark space is interesting...there is a big problem with this though: If there is a Citadel relay in dark space, why not make it the center of the network and shut down the relays from there?

I'm beginning to susepct that the Intelligence is a being that can turn itself into a mass relay. In essence it could generate its own powerful mass effect fields. This would have allowed it to move its minions along with it in the days before the mass relays. Because of these abilities, the Intelligence could serve as an anchor for the Citadel relay to link to.

On a side note, does anyone think we'll run into the mysterious "Keeper 20" mentioned in LotSB anytime soon?

I don't see how an AI can turn itself into a physical object. Did you mean that it'd upload itself to a mass relay?

The idea that there's a counterpart to the Citadel in Dark Space is very intriguing. That might be the way for BioWare to allow Shepard to go there and witness the true face of the enemy. Might even find semi-Reaperized copies of himself that Reapers wanted to deploy among organics. Finding out that the forces attacking the Milky Way were just shock troops, and that there are millions of Reapers waiting to siege the Galaxy, could be a real twist too.

And going to a Citadel like structure in Dark Space could give us our means to defeat them as well. Arrival showed us what happens when you destroy a Mass Relay, the Citadel or something similar is just a large Mass Relay. Going to dark space and somehow overloading/smashing the Mass Relay there would destroy any Reapers there without harming the galaxy.

And that is where the Crucible could come in, a way to force the Citadel relay open and with the Reaper IFF we could also use it.

Sounds like a good purpose for the Crucible. Maybe the Reapers know a secret code to activate the Citadel relay and hence did not need the Crucible in ME1. But for organics, who obviously don't know the code, the Crucible might act as a kind of code breaker, delivering energy to an internal quantum computer, then injecting a virus with the code into the Citadel computer network.

Modifié par paxxton, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:01 .

[Eryri]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


And going to a Citadel like structure in Dark Space could give us our means to defeat them as well. Arrival showed us what happens when you destroy a Mass Relay, the Citadel or something similar is just a large Mass Relay. Going to dark space and somehow overloading/smashing the Mass Relay there would destroy any Reapers there without harming the galaxy.

And that is where the Crucible could come in, a way to force the Citadel relay open and with the Reaper IFF we could also use it.

I like that idea for an ending. How would you deal with the other Reapers scattered around the galaxy though?

Modifié par Eryri, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:04 .

[spotlessvoid]

IsaacShep wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

youre just making things up now

How so? He said "I was first created". So obviously he must have been recreated. You don't say "I was first created" if you were created only once

lol changing your mind is not being recreated. 
Leviathan stated that the AI was created to preserve organic life. Then it studied the development of civilizations. Then it's understanding grew until it came up with a solution. "in that moment it betrayed us"

[paxxton]

Eryri wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


And going to a Citadel like structure in Dark Space could give us our means to defeat them as well. Arrival showed us what happens when you destroy a Mass Relay, the Citadel or something similar is just a large Mass Relay. Going to dark space and somehow overloading/smashing the Mass Relay there would destroy any Reapers there without harming the galaxy.

And that is where the Crucible could come in, a way to force the Citadel relay open and with the Reaper IFF we could also use it.

I like that idea for an ending. How would you deal with the other Reapers scattered around the galaxy though?

A control panel, maybe...

[shepskisaac]

spotlessvoid wrote...

lol changing your mind is not being recreated.

Of course, which is why it wouldn't make sense for him to say "I was first created" if Leviathans didn't recreate him

[Eryri]

IsaacShep wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

lol changing your mind is not being recreated.

Of course, which is why it wouldn't make sense for him to say "I was first created" if Leviathans didn't recreate him

I think that might be just a turn of phrase. The redundant use of "first" is just to add emphasis.

Modifié par Eryri, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:11 .