80611 réponses à ce sujet

[plfranke]

So let's talk about Kai Leng. I think something is fishy about his character and it may relate to Shepard's indoctrination. I don't have any hard ideas about how it does relate but hear me out on this and maybe we can put something together.

Your squadmates never once acknowledge Kai Leng. Even in the final battle at Cerberus HQ, it's been noted how odd it is that your squad seems to not even know he's there when he's coming up behind you. He put a VI into the system that erased footage of him wherever he went. He also for some reason doesn't pursue the council and the only reason given for it is he was trying to get away from Bailey and that one csec guy. Come on. Bailey and the csec guy scared off Kai Leng and 3 phantoms?

Note: I realized about halfway through this that Miranda does acknowledge him when told so it kind of ruins this whole idea I had, but I'm still gonna share this stuff because it still seems odd.

The only person other than Miranda who knows who Kai Leng is, is Anderson. And guess what, he knows exactly who Kai Leng is before Shepard mentions any characteristics. All Shepard has to do is mention an assasin and Anderson says, "Kai Leeeeeeeng". Shared memories anyone?

Then there was the email sent to Shepard "The legend of Shepard needs to be re-written, it ends with your death." Seems pretty symbolic considering the wording used at the end of the game "Commander Shepard has become a legend" So maybe this was Bioware's way of telling us the ending will be re-written?

Then there was the line from the monitor in Cerberus HQ where TIM said "You really do remind me of him". My theory was basically shot down when I remembered about Miranda, but I really do think there are some elements of Kai Leng that as Bioware might say, should be taken "non literally". All Bailey gives when describing the assasin following the councilors are "someone with a sword". I don't know things just seem really odd to me. Just putting that out there in case I think of some ways to follow it up or maybe someone else wants to speculate on some of the more odd parts of Kai Leng's character.

[plfranke]

Big_Boss9 wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Actually in the first encounter he defeated Thane 1v1, jumped onto a flying car, blocked your bullets with his mind, and jammed his sword down your roof sabotaging your plan. Then he was able to elude all of C-Sec. Second encounter he takes out your entire squad. I'm cutting this off because you guys have just gave me a potentially great idea and I need time to post it.

On the Citadel, all Shep had to do was invert the car. Dead. Plot armored.

And no, he didn't take out your entire squad on Thessia. The gunship does. Go back and watch/play it again.

Dude that is not plot armor. Plot armor would have been if Shep did invert the car but Kai Leng still didn't die.
Do you not see where he throws Liara into the other person? Or do you just hear "target the supports" and stop watching?

[RavenEyry]

Anderson met cerberus assasin Leng in a novel, apart from that good points.

[plfranke]

RavenEyry wrote...

Anderson met cerberus assasin Leng in a novel, apart from that good points.

Thanks! About Anderson, you never tell him anything about Leng though. I know it could have just been an oversight, but it just seems really shady. It would be like if someone was talking to me and they said hey I met an indoctrination theorist the other day and I said "RavenEyry I know that guy too." It very well could be you that guy is talking about but I have no way of knowing it's you from any other person on this thread.

[Big_Boss9]

plfranke wrote...

Big_Boss9 wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Actually in the first encounter he defeated Thane 1v1, jumped onto a flying car, blocked your bullets with his mind, and jammed his sword down your roof sabotaging your plan. Then he was able to elude all of C-Sec. Second encounter he takes out your entire squad. I'm cutting this off because you guys have just gave me a potentially great idea and I need time to post it.

On the Citadel, all Shep had to do was invert the car. Dead. Plot armored.

And no, he didn't take out your entire squad on Thessia. The gunship does. Go back and watch/play it again.

Dude that is not plot armor. Plot armor would have been if Shep did invert the car but Kai Leng still didn't die.
Do you not see where he throws Liara into the other person? Or do you just hear "target the supports" and stop watching?

He was a poorly introduced Gary Stu, until the plot dictated that he should die. And what is your other post implying? That he didn't exist at all? (Or Shep never actually encountered him?)

Modifié par Big_Boss9, 22 septembre 2012 - 07:42 .

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

To be fair, Kai Leng needed a reasonable amount of plot armor to survive far enough into the storyline to be meaningful. Honestly, I'm surprised he made it in after the crap Deception took on the Mass Effect series...

[RavenEyry]

I've said before and I'll say again: I don't think Leng was badly written. I think he was supposed to be a whiny coward with delusions of being Shepards archnemesis.

[plfranke]

I just rewatched both scenes of Kai Leng on the citadel, where he successfully assasinates the councilor and when in the fight with Thane. Your squadmates don't fire a shot at him when he's in the fight with Thane, something that has annoyed almost every player. This surely would have been seen as odd but yet it was kept in anyway. In fact, when you're looking down on the salarian councilor, your squadmates just walk away while you're looking at the councilor and leng. It's eerily reminiscent of the scene with the kid on Earth.

Even the Councilor kind of ignores Leng. He/She says "He's going to kill us all" Then you say "That remains to be seen" And the councilor seems not even worried about Leng and says "I mean Udina he's staging a coup" If Leng successfully assasinates the councilor, your squadmates don't do anything. You chase down Leng and start shooting but they just stand there.

@BigBoss
I'm not sure what I'm saying yet, but after looking at this for a while now I'm convinced there's something up with his character. I urge you all to go back and watch these scenes over.

[Big_Boss9]

plfranke wrote...

I just rewatched both scenes of Kai Leng on the citadel, where he successfully assasinates the councilor and when in the fight with Thane. Your squadmates don't fire a shot at him when he's in the fight with Thane, something that has annoyed almost every player. This surely would have been seen as odd but yet it was kept in anyway. In fact, when you're looking down on the salarian councilor, your squadmates just walk away while you're looking at the councilor and leng. It's eerily reminiscent of the scene with the kid on Earth.

Even the Councilor kind of ignores Leng. He/She says "He's going to kill us all" Then you say "That remains to be seen" And the councilor seems not even worried about Leng and says "I mean Udina he's staging a coup" If Leng successfully assasinates the councilor, your squadmates don't do anything. You chase down Leng and start shooting but they just stand there.

@BigBoss
I'm not sure what I'm saying yet, but after looking at this for a while now I'm convinced there's something up with his character. I urge you all to go back and watch these scenes over.

Fair point, but I don't want to fall into the trap of ascribing IT to any and all sort of writing issues (at face value) contained in the game. As far as the ending goes, I'm competely on board, but Bioware is certainly capable of making creative mistakes.

Modifié par Big_Boss9, 22 septembre 2012 - 07:54 .

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Trust me, up until Deception I loved Kai Leng's character- almost the "nega-Shepard". It gave the series a much needed adversary for Shep and I waited with bated breath for their confrontation in ME3. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I avoided Deception until after I played ME3 but by then I already didn't care...

Plfranke It kind of sounds to me like your trying to force Kai Leng's character in-game to be, well, what he should have been. But his scenes were too inconsistent to be anything but plot armour... Who even engages in melee combat in the 22nd century? Other than a good 'ol rifle butt to the face Mass Effect has never emphasized close range combat with anything other than a shotgun. Your henchman engaging Kai Leng in close quarters and not even trying to shoot him dishonors them when you disregard plot armor.

Just know that plot armor is not always a bad thing- Sometimes I want Edmond Dantes to take his revenge upon Fernand Mondego ASAP but the Count's patient, slow destruction of Fernand's life is soooo much more satisfying! Mass Effect 3's plot was thusly served by allowing him to twice escape direct combat with Shepard, the second time dealing him a severe psychological blow. In the end the fight with him is as near a boss fight with cerberus as we get I guess..

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

RavenEyry wrote...

I've said before and I'll say again: I don't think Leng was badly written. I think he was supposed to be a whiny coward with delusions of being Shepards archnemesis.

That is what he came of as to me as well. I really doubt TIM held much regard for him even. A useful piece for his skills, but nothing more than that.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Sorry 'bout posting under myself (hopefully someone will post as I type) but haha plfranke you remind me of the guys describing Hackett's message to Shepard after Intro Earth, were you there for that conversation?

[Big_Boss9]

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

Sorry 'bout posting under myself (hopefully someone will post as I type) but haha plfranke you remind me of the guys describing Hackett's message to Shepard after Intro Earth, were you there for that conversation?

Prophet status confirmed.

And agreed, there's absolutely nothing wrong with careful use of plot armor with a well-established character ... which Kai Leng was not.

Modifié par Big_Boss9, 22 septembre 2012 - 07:57 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

Trust me, up until Deception I loved Kai Leng's character- almost the "nega-Shepard". It gave the series a much needed adversary for Shep and I waited with bated breath for their confrontation in ME3. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I avoided Deception until after I played ME3 but by then I already didn't care...

Plfranke It kind of sounds to me like your trying to force Kai Leng's character in-game to be, well, what he should have been. But his scenes were too inconsistent to be anything but plot armour... Who even engages in melee combat in the 22nd century? Other than a good 'ol rifle butt to the face Mass Effect has never emphasized close range combat with anything other than a shotgun. Your henchman engaging Kai Leng in close quarters and not even trying to shoot him dishonors them when you disregard plot armor.

Just know that plot armor is not always a bad thing- Sometimes I want Edmond Dantes to take his revenge upon Fernand Mondego ASAP but the Count's patient, slow destruction of Fernand's life is soooo much more satisfying! Mass Effect 3's plot was thusly served by allowing him to twice escape direct combat with Shepard, the second time dealing him a severe psychological blow. In the end the fight with him is as near a boss fight with cerberus as we get I guess..

In regards to who engages in melee combat at that time...Thane did it pretty well during his Assasination entry and from what we see in cutscenes Jack also has a tendency to get a bit up close and personal with her Biotic powers (though that might as well be her not picking up a gun during her escape as you let her out).

[plfranke]

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

Sorry 'bout posting under myself (hopefully someone will post as I type) but haha plfranke you remind me of the guys describing Hackett's message to Shepard after Intro Earth, were you there for that conversation?

No, what was said?

[plfranke]

In a world of shields that deflect bullets and mental control over gravity I don't think getting into close quarters combat with a sword that can tear through space cars is too out of the question.

[Rob Psyence]

I think it's funny how a few of you are acting like tactical retreat is cowardly. Who else is with the councilers at the end of the citadel attack which makes going after them kinda dumb? Ash/Kaiden..you know, another spectre, in addition to Shepard and two other team mates.. On Thessia, his mission was to ensure that Shepard didn't keep the prothean VI...once he does that what is the point of sticking around?

Kai Leng is a former N7 soldier, he got kicked out shortly after training but still. He's an assassin and assassins don't tend to fight prolonged battles, they get in and get out. It has nothing to being cowardly.

Modifié par Rob Psyence, 22 septembre 2012 - 08:00 .

[Big_Boss9]

plfranke wrote...

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

Sorry 'bout posting under myself (hopefully someone will post as I type) but haha plfranke you remind me of the guys describing Hackett's message to Shepard after Intro Earth, were you there for that conversation?

No, what was said?

I assume he means the people who claimed it was a fake transmission because the scar is on the wrong side. There was a long conversation about that a while ago.

Modifié par Big_Boss9, 22 septembre 2012 - 08:01 .

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

 

In regards to who engages in melee combat at that time...Thane did it pretty well during his Assasination entry and from what we see in cutscenes Jack also has a tendency to get a bit up close and personal with her Biotic powers (though that might as well be her not picking up a gun during her escape as you let her out).

True about Thane (keep in mind you already answered everything about Jack)  but other than hime who else do we see engaging in melee combat? Grunt's blood rage charge does not count...

Also think of the Thessia scene I was thinking of when I wrote that, why would your team mates:

1. Not expect Kai Leng to charge them and engage close quarters combat?

2. Why would your squaddies stand still as he comes at them? (Like Liara futiley shooting the Shadow Broker's "super-shield")

[plfranke]

Rob Psyence wrote...

I think it's funny how a few of you are acting like tactical retreat is cowardly. Who else is with the councilers at the end of the citadel attack which makes going after them kinda dumb? Ash/Kaiden..you know, another spectre, in addition to Shepard and two other team mates.. On Thessia, his mission was to ensure that Shepard didn't keep the prothean VI...once he does that what is the point of sticking around?

Kai Leng is a former N7 soldier, he got kicked out shortly after training but still. He's an assassin and assassins don't tend to fight prolonged battles, they get in and get out. It has nothing to being cowardly.

In real life what you're saying makes sense, but sometimes you have to make assumptions that the game is obviously leading you to make. For instance, the game wanted you to assume that had that been Kai Leng and the phantoms in the elevator the councilors were gonna get killed. And the game could have easily framed Kai Leng's retreat as you did, not wanting to get mixed up with Shepard's squad and another spectre, but it didn't. It was framed as
"They beat feet into the keeper tunnels when they found out we were coming."
"Beat feet into the keeper tunnels when they found out we were coming."
"When they found out WE (Bailey and random C-Sec guy) were coming."

[Big_Boss9]

Rob Psyence wrote...

I think it's funny how a few of you are acting like tactical retreat is cowardly. Who else is with the councilers at the end of the citadel attack which makes going after them kinda dumb? Ash/Kaiden..you know, another spectre, in addition to Shepard and two other team mates.. On Thessia, his mission was to ensure that Shepard didn't keep the prothean VI...once he does that what is the point of sticking around?

Kai Leng is a former N7 soldier, he got kicked out shortly after training but still. He's an assassin and assassins don't tend to fight prolonged battles, they get in and get out. It has nothing to being cowardly.

And yet when Shepard mocks him for running on both occasions, his "thoughtful" retort is ... "SHUT UP!"  

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

plfranke wrote...

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

Sorry 'bout posting under myself (hopefully someone will post as I type) but haha plfranke you remind me of the guys describing Hackett's message to Shepard after Intro Earth, were you there for that conversation?

No, what was said?

That there were a number of things wrong with the conversation had with Hackett before you go to Mars:
(Boy, its list-o-mania for me tonight)

1. How is Hackett contacting Shepard, it is not clear if that terminal links to the QEC network.

2. Hackett's scar is reversed- Reaper trap to lead Shepard to Liara/Crucible?

3. Ash/Kaiden and Vega do not acknowledge the conversation directly.

That is just a few of the things I'm sure there are a number I am forgetting but led to all sorts of hubub about Hackett, Glyph, Liara being Indoctrinated...

[Rob Psyence]

plfranke wrote...

Rob Psyence wrote...

I think it's funny how a few of you are acting like tactical retreat is cowardly. Who else is with the councilers at the end of the citadel attack which makes going after them kinda dumb? Ash/Kaiden..you know, another spectre, in addition to Shepard and two other team mates.. On Thessia, his mission was to ensure that Shepard didn't keep the prothean VI...once he does that what is the point of sticking around?

Kai Leng is a former N7 soldier, he got kicked out shortly after training but still. He's an assassin and assassins don't tend to fight prolonged battles, they get in and get out. It has nothing to being cowardly.

In real life what you're saying makes sense, but sometimes you have to make assumptions that the game is obviously leading you to make. For instance, the game wanted you to assume that had that been Kai Leng and the phantoms in the elevator the councilors were gonna get killed. And the game could have easily framed Kai Leng's retreat as you did, not wanting to get mixed up with Shepard's squad and another spectre, but it didn't. It was framed as
"They beat feet into the keeper tunnels when they found out we were coming."
"Beat feet into the keeper tunnels when they found out we were coming."
"When they found out WE (Bailey and random C-Sec guy) were coming."

Maybe the councilors weren't the real reason they were there? (Just kinda musing btw) If you think of it like that it'd make sense why they broke off the attack so soon, perhaps the attack was just a diversionary tactic? I don't know what else they'd be there for but whatever lol

[RavenEyry]

Funny that all the oddest conversations are only witnessed by Shep. Such as Tali wandering off before the rannoch reaper speaks.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

plfranke wrote...

In a world of shields that deflect bullets and mental control over gravity I don't think getting into close quarters combat with a sword that can tear through space cars is too out of the question.

I vehemetly agree!! In fact my first intorduction to Sci-Fi Shields was through Frank Herbert's Dune. A lasgun on a shield would create a near nuclear explosion. The slow moving object penetrated the shield- thus inevitable melee with a shielded opponent.

But none of your squadmates are hand to hand specialists (at least not on Kai Leng's level and yes supposition) Thane's fight with Leng is not recreatable with Vega or EDI...