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[MegaSovereign]

So in this interpretation, what happens after you choose Destroy is all real but Control/Synthesis is only an illusion in Shep's mind (or more appropriately, a twist of what's really happening in real life)?

[Ausnuk]

 
To the Op well done, could not have said it better and I tried here and in the IT thread.

I was some would say the few who only saw Indoctrination of the player as Bioware end game. It is not theory for me. I saw only this as their intent and I was blown away by it as I wrote in my previous post. They did not succeed on their idea because to make it work they have to have more than a breathe scene to make you realised what actually took place. The breathe scene shows only in destroy because it is the only choice that you should do. No one playing all 3 of these games did it to become the reapers or control them. The EMS score is a reflection of your resolve during the game and how far you are willing to go to stop the reapers. The game determines our choices and outcomes as a result of our EMS score.

That uncomfortable, unnerving feeling you had pre-EC when you ended the game, that feeling of limited control was you losing your characters mind and indeed yours. They in my opinion was pulling off the greatest mind ***k but fell short when they gave us nothing but a breathe scene to confirm you resisted their indoctrination attempt. The other options give you nothing because you did exactly what the reapers (and Bioware) wanted. To be indoctrinated.

Bioware now brings out the EC because mostly everyone did not get their original intent. They could not just tell you because it would defeat the purpose at that point. They just never made it clear enough for the player to understand what was going on. The EC does nothing to change that. Still the same holes for those that see it and remains the indoctrination of the player and Shepard. The end game in the end is not consistent with the game-play of the last 2 games and that is what lets me down, not what they wrote but how they executed the end.
Bioware just let me stand up in the rubble of London and finish it they way Shepard should. With his/her gun doing the talking.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

MegaSovereign wrote...

So in this interpretation, what happens after you choose Destroy is all real but Control/Synthesis is only an illusion in Shep's mind (or more appropriately, a twist of what's really happening in real life)?

I think that's pretty much what the OP is trying to say.

Debating is fine and all but the OP is being obnoxiously pushy with his "I'm right, you're wrong" posts.

Like when I said the Catalyst doesn't look forward to control to which the OP replies he is flat out lying to make it more appealing. How can I argue  and debate against this kind of headcanon? 

[dorktainian]

I remain to be convinced that Bioware are intelligent enough for IT to be real, but it's the only explanation imo for the ending. Destroy every time for me (or refuse) but for me control & synthesis mean we lose.

[MrSuperCrazyAwesome]

InTRAgalactic. Sorry.

[KevShep]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

So in this interpretation, what happens after you choose Destroy is all real but Control/Synthesis is only an illusion in Shep's mind (or more appropriately, a twist of what's really happening in real life)?

I think that's pretty much what the OP is trying to say.

Debating is fine and all but the OP is being obnoxiously pushy with his "I'm right, you're wrong" posts.

Like when I said the Catalyst doesn't look forward to control to which the OP replies he is flat out lying to make it more appealing. How can I argue  and debate against this kind of headcanon? 

The OP's other points in the whole statment make it evidence that the catalyst is lying about being replaced.

[Andromidius]

AlanC9 wrote...

Like I said before, this is pretty good. IT with about 70% less crazy

I take it then you don't understand IT.  Otherwise your statement makes no sense at all.

IT has no crazy.  Its theorizing about alternative interpretations of what happens to Shepard and co.  Its looking at themes, inconsistancies, easter eggs and statements by Bioware.

Where is this crazy everyone talks about?  Because I sure as hell don't see it.  Its just pathetic strawmanning, because its the cool thing to do.

And then people like threads like this, which is talking about the exact same thing only with none of the investigation and purely thematic.  I don't understand how people like that can even function, the messages are so mixed.

[WhiteKnyght]

Shepard would have to be indoctrinated to choose refuse and let the Reapers win(that's the clearest sign of Indoc, refusal to do anything to stop the Reapers).

[Arian Dynas]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Shepard would have to be indoctrinated to choose refuse and let the Reapers win(that's the clearest sign of Indoc, refusal to do anything to stop the Reapers).

No. Indoctrination is agreeing with them and accepting heir point of veiw. TIM fought the Reapers, and no one can deny he fought the Reapers.

[KevShep]

Arian Dynas wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Shepard would have to be indoctrinated to choose refuse and let the Reapers win(that's the clearest sign of Indoc, refusal to do anything to stop the Reapers).

No. Indoctrination is agreeing with them and accepting heir point of veiw. TIM fought the Reapers, and no one can deny he fought the Reapers.

In Sheps last dream we have shepard hugging the kid (trusting the kid) and happily "burning".

In trusting the catalyst (trusting the kid) we see shepard picking control/synthesis and happily "burning"!

Indoctrination!

[Ranger Jack Walker]

KevShep wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

So in this interpretation, what happens after you choose Destroy is all real but Control/Synthesis is only an illusion in Shep's mind (or more appropriately, a twist of what's really happening in real life)?

I think that's pretty much what the OP is trying to say.

Debating is fine and all but the OP is being obnoxiously pushy with his "I'm right, you're wrong" posts.

Like when I said the Catalyst doesn't look forward to control to which the OP replies he is flat out lying to make it more appealing. How can I argue  and debate against this kind of headcanon? 

The OP's other points in the whole statment make it evidence that the catalyst is lying about being replaced.

Not evidence. Interpretation. Learn the difference. Evidence would mean undeniable fact. The only thing that would make it undeniable fact that the catalyst was lying is if Bioware flat out said he was lying. As of yet, they haven't. So currently it's all a mix of interpretation and head canon.

[Galbrant]

Great read OP, you might made me decided go back to destroyed due to the pipe is apart of the citadel not the crucible.... but I am not exactly ready just yet. Personally I always thought refusal Shepard would have found another way to use the Crucible if they could..

[Aquarius87]

Bioware still hasn't denied or confirmed the IT....curious.

[yogibbear87]

The indoctrination theory just makes too much logical sense. I really do hope the DLC picks up from Shep waking up in the London rubble ready to take down Harbinger.

Otherwise I just can't accept Refuse/Control/Synth as my witness is unreliable, and the starchild is a reaper so they'd never let us make those sorts of decisions and get the outcomes shown in the EC. Has to be all made up when in reality the reapers win if you chose any of R/C/S.

Two ways this can play out:
a) DLC where you wake up from the rubble and actually enter the citadel proper to set off the crucible and then take on Harbinger in one final battle (maybe he can be in the way as you approach the proper citadel control panel).
DLC where you wake up from the rubble and someone else made it into the citadel and fired off the crucible killing all reapers except for Harbinger or Leviathan or both and now you hunt one or both of them down.

[Subguy614]

The OP(s) are brilliant.

I'm Subguy614 and this is my favorite theory on the BSN.

[Arian Dynas]

Subguy614 wrote...

The OP(s) are brilliant.

I'm Subguy614 and this is my favorite theory on the BSN.

It's indoctrination theory.

Yes, contrary to popular belief, we are not in fact an insane cult of confirmation biased conspiracy theorists.

We use the same arguments he does here to support IT.

[Lord Goose]

TIM fought the Reapers, and no one can deny
he fought the Reapers.

The only instance when Cerberus acted against Reapers were Sanctuary. And it was Reapers who decided to attack. Before that, TIM was helping them by trying to sabotage the Crucible, prevent Krogan-Turian Alliance, launching strikes against Alliance facilities...

[TJBartlemus]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Subguy614 wrote...

The OP(s) are brilliant.

I'm Subguy614 and this is my favorite theory on the BSN.

It's indoctrination theory.

Yes, contrary to popular belief, we are not in fact an insane cult of confirmation biased conspiracy theorists.

We use the same arguments he does here to support IT.

Agreed. Indoctrination Theorists just get a bad rap because some theorists aren't as good at writing/explaining as the OP and sometimes are missunderstood. 

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 01 août 2012 - 05:37 .

[AlexMBrennan]

No CSD and the Crucible would have armed as soon as it docked

You. Do. Not. Know. This. This is not in the game. This is not in the books. Thus, you are inventing facts.

Simply calling everything you dislike and doesn't conform to your ideas "bad writing" isn't goin to cut in a discussion envolving narrative/plot analysis

You're missing the point here, which is that you don't have a clue about how hypothesis testing works.

There are two conflicting hypothesis:
a) "Indoctrination theory" : Ending is just a hallucination
Ending is real, but the writers screwed up with the details

You present a piece of data that is consistent with both hypotheses. Thus, it gives you no information about which hypothesis is true. You have to find data consistent with only one of them.

The fact that I can't just shove the kid aside and shoot the damn CSD as soon as he points it out without even letting him talk about alternatives is what??? A curtesy?

Get where I'm going with this?

Yes, you're trying to patch up a logical non-sequitur (i.e. the conclusion does not follow from the premise) by handwaving.

Yeah, and if shooting that CSD didn't work I'd be able to figure something else out.

Sorry, I had assumed that you would realise that shooting a tube of unknown function in a space station of unknown design is equally suicidal.

It's all fact. Prove me wrong.

Well, I'll do one.

Note that the Crucible never needed the "Star Child". The Crucible needed the Citadel.

No. The *Catalyst* is needed for the Crucible to work. You have no basis for the claim that Star Child is not needed. That is not in the game. It's not in the book. You are inventing facts again.

Etc,

[Subguy614]

No. The *Catalyst* is needed for the Crucible to work. You have no basis for the claim that Star Child is not needed. That is not in the game. It's not in the book. You are inventing facts again.

The basis is that not one of the creatures that worked on the Crucible or adapted it to be used with the Citadel was even AWARE of the star child's existance.---> How can something be made to "need" something that for the designers doesn't exist???

[Arian Dynas]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

You're missing the point here, which is that you don't have a clue about how hypothesis testing works.

There are two conflicting hypothesis:
a) "Indoctrination theory" : Ending is just a hallucination
Ending is real, but the writers screwed up with the details

You present a piece of data that is consistent with both hypotheses. Thus, it gives you no information about which hypothesis is true. You have to find data consistent with only one of them

I have a big issue with this.

Saying "Indoctrination theory; Ending is just a hallucination" is a gross oversimplification.

It's "Indoctrination theory, the ending is a symbolic and allegorical battle for Shepard's soul, in the center of his own mind with the corrupting influence of the Reapers, which the player can either win by resisting, or can lose by aligning themselves with the Reaper ideologies." (Indoctrinationism)

And that's still leaving out TONS of other interpretations.

The ending is in Shepard's head as he enters a virtual reality representing the Reaper collective unconcious (Virtualism)

The ending is exactly what we see, and no more, the writers merely suck and there is nothing more to see, they're just hiding behind "Artistic Creativity" as an excuse, because they suck and are a bunch of liars. (Reductionism)

The ending, while flawed, is true, and the Reapers really did have good intentions, which they could not communicate effectively, leading to a misunderstanding from attempting to force their ideologies onto others (Literalism)

The ending is really occuring, but Shepard is being influenced by Reaper Control in the last moments. (Nanite-Theory)

The ending is sort of occuring, but Shepard is actually at the base of the beam, and everything else is an altered veiw of reality (Waking-Nightmare Theory)

and more than I care to list here.

Basically, this whole thing is not as simple as some would claim it to be.

[The Twilight God]

HYR 2.0 wrote...


Oi! Obviously I meant Shepard is being stupid in that moment, not in general.

Refusal Shepard wants to stop the Reapers as he clearly states, he just doesn't want to do it through the Crucible. For what reasons? That's up for interpretation, but they're not limited to indoctrination.

Shepard doesn't have a choice, but to use the Crucible. He knew that before he even went in. That entire operation: Sword, Crucible, Shield, Hammer - everything - was done because he knows for a fact that conventional victory is not possible. There is nothing he has witnessed in the war to counter this fact. Sorry, but what you propose is beyond stupid. Stupid is putting it lightly. The entire game is based around the fact that the Crucible is your only hope. I don't know how else to say this, but what you propose is simply contradictory to the enter game. The refual dialog is basic Shepard saying "I'm gonna get us all killed *derp*, but I'm gonna die free *d-derp-d-durrr*". Thing is, he has the option to LIVE free. There is no way a non-indoctrinated Shepard could make that choice. No way, no how. Period.

You think Shepard is just a ******. Fine. I'm not really interested in discussing the SST. It's like arguing with someone claiming ice is hot.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

... that's because they actively plant those thoughts in your head, and convince you that those thoughts are your own. That's where we're having a problem. You have the collective intelligence of the Reapers giving you three options to stop the Reapers, and despite supposedly being under their control, you reject all of them? And, that said rejection is never brought up as a possibility, no less.

They give 2 options. 1 was always the goal from the get go.

Refusla doesn;t have to be brought up. It is essential the crushing of Shepards will. If isn't deceived via indoctrination. He is utterly crushed by it. He is defeated. In Control and Synthesis he at least thinks he's doing something good. He's not so far gone that he knowingly dooms everyone.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

What proof do we have that Shepard decides not to use the Crucible because he's indoctrinated?

The fact that he didn't use it and purposely dooms the galactic community.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

What proof do we have that it's the Catalyst's idea?

He's indoctrinated. Ergo, it is the Catalyst's desire.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

What proof do we have that Shepard came up with the idea on his own?

None. As such a decison is narratively and thematically impossible for Shepard. We're talking about the dev's  F.U. ending for christ's sake.

If he's indoctrinated, why are we no longer hearing voices inside his head as we did when TIM was trying to control him?

The Catalyst is the voice in his head. It took the form of that boy because.... ta-da it's in his head. That is how the reapers were communicating.

TIM wasn't mind controlling Shepard. He was physically controlling him. Two different things. Shep and Anderson were both vivid and aware and still held their convictions. I honestly don't get what TIM was doing as that form of control has never been present in ME before that moment.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Also, if the catalyst is there to deceive, and making you not use the Crucible is one of his goals, why does he not try to... you know... actually deceive you into doing that? Like, "the Crucible is not sufficiently powerful enough to destroy all of us. You need to find another way. Trust me." - ?

It's too blatant. That's not deception or maipulation. that would be brazzen stupidity on the part of the Catalyst. If the reapers show up and say "Um, just turn back. The Crucible ain't here." How would the player react? What would you dialog options be? "Derp, OK" and "Out of my way, liar!!" They have to trick the player in order to indoctrinate Shepard.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

It's laden with Collector tech you can use against them, or uncover valuable information as to how to exploit them. (TIM in ME2: "Information is my weapon, Shepard.")

Collector tech, huh? Like the cruiser class collector ship the Normandy frigate butt raped?

And it might possibly become a weapon.. maybe. If the reapers have their big red doctor robotnik weak spot plans laying around perhaps. Nah, Shep figured that out on his own for destroyers at least. There is either reaper tech laying around which has always gone well for Cerberus or just more collector tech that we've already surpassed. Collector = prothean. Prothean tech is not going to beat the reapers. Didn't then, isn't now. Cerberus had an actual reaper and what good did it do them in finding a Reaper weakness? What great knowledge did they acquire?

HYR 2.0 wrote...

And this isn't even an argument. The remnants of the Collector Base or the intact Reaper brain was used in the construction of the Crucible to defeat the Reapers. It is a canon weapon.

It''s a processor or a addtional power core. The player has no input as to rather or not it goes into the Crucible. But seeing that either or would go in, and both being different types of hardware, neither one can be that crucial. The only situation in which they matter is a lose-lose situation.

[The Twilight God]

MegaSovereign wrote...

So in this interpretation, what happens after you choose Destroy is all real but Control/Synthesis is only an illusion in Shep's mind (or more appropriately, a twist of what's really happening in real life)?

Yeah, I think  you get it.

The Control and Synthesis endings continue from an indoctrinated perspective. An indoctrinated EDI or a delusion AI.

You have to remember that the epilogues are about what the narrators want or envison will happen. Even the Destroy epilogue. For all we know the Krogan went to war, then the rachni attacked and the galaxy collapsed into chaos. All that good will and cooperation stuff may never have actualized and the Citadel might still be a wreck in a decaying orbit 500 years into the future.

[Alex_Dur4and]

FINALLY!!! Someone able to explain what 99% of the IT believers were trying to say!! Thank you for making it so clear and without any form of "over-analysis"!! Hallelujah!!!

It's very interesting to imagine as the endings don't need to change at all!! But SP DLC content could possibly validate the theory and push Shepard in the right direction!

Modifié par Alex_Dur4and, 01 août 2012 - 11:04 .

[The Twilight God]

Ausnuk wrote...

 
To the Op well done, could not have said it better and I tried here and in the IT thread.

I was some would say the few who only saw Indoctrination of the player as Bioware end game. It is not theory for me. I saw only this as their intent and I was blown away by it as I wrote in my previous post. They did not succeed on their idea because to make it work they have to have more than a breathe scene to make you realised what actually took place. The breathe scene shows only in destroy because it is the only choice that you should do.

 
I thought it was because it's the only one that Shep isn't disintegrated...

Modifié par The Twilight God, 01 août 2012 - 10:58 .