1238 réponses à ce sujet

[clennon8]

Hannah Montana wrote...

If it unlocked as soon as you get to the citadel then it is almost straight after the Indoctrination dream.

No.  The nightmare (which I do think is an indicator of indoctrination, just to be clear) does not occur until you return to the Normandy after the initial Citadel visit.

Anyway, as I said, it actually unlocks sometime during Priority: Mars.  I paused and checked the Codex when Eva Core was charging at me, and it was there.

Modifié par clennon8, 14 août 2012 - 04:09 .

[clennon8]

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Modifié par clennon8, 14 août 2012 - 08:58 .

[The Twilight God]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Really? The reapers really can't figure out how prevent something like the Crucible from physically docking with the Citadel? All they have to do is create a simple, solid object that physically prevents anything from accessing or interfacing with Citadel. Surely the reapers should know any kind of port on the Citadel where an external device can tap into its energy. Why not imply physically block that access/interfacing port?

Your entire argument hinges on the concept that just because you can conceive something in simplistic terms, it is possible to enact in a practical manner. You assert, intentionally or ortherwise, that the Reapers can theorhetically achieve anything and that they are limited only by the their imagination and resources. Obviously, this isn't the case.

As I said before...

The Twilight God wrote...

Perhaps it isn't possible because the means by which it would interact with the Citadel involves something crucial to the performance of the Citadel's functions.

Let me give you an example as you clear didn't understand the quote above. Let's say I have a device that interacts with an automobile. In this case, its connection point is the exhaust. To prevent this device from interfacing with said automobile would it be wise to fill the exhaust pipe with cement? No, of course not. It is crucial to the design of the car and the performance of its function. I could install and screen over the exhaust, which would be analogous to the CSD, but I cannot outright block the exhaust.

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

And why would the reapers design a CSD to be so accessible? Why not place it on the opposite side that doesn't have a platform leading up to it? A small shift in the geometry can do the trick.

Once again, your query is addressed in the very post you are replying to... *sigh*

The Twilight God wrote...

Assuming the CSD needs to be in close proximity to the Crucible, its power has to come from somewhere and get to the device at some location. The power junction, in this scenario, happens to be that location.

Once again you asume that because you can conceive something is simplistic terms it must be possible on a practical level. Neither you nor I know the exact specifications of the Crucible or the CSD. We can infer that the CSD is most likely located within the docking chamber. Why is it there and not somewhere else? The simplist answer is that it needs to be in close proximity to the Crucible.

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

If the reapers' goal is to prevent the Crucible from docking with the Citadel, you would think that they can do a better job of that. Unless they are unaware of the Crucible until the Illusive Man informed them. However, even if that's the case, how can the Crucible, even in pristine condition, interface with the Citadel so well that the Crucible's energy can be tapped by the Citadel to assume control of the reapers? If I may go into my engine fuel analogy, shouldn't any device that interfaces with the Citadel have a very specific interfacing system?

Well, if you had been paying attention or read my thesis you would already know my answer. As usually I have to keep repeating myself as you apparently have the short term memory of an amoeba.

Control is a function of the Citadel. "The Controller" is a device that the Reapers designed and built. Control uses the energy of the Crucible, but that is all the Crucible is in relation to Control: A battery. The Crucible doesn't do anything else beside power it. The same goes for Synthesis.

Why would the Reapers pre-build a device that allows for someone else to take them over you ask? Exactly! They wouldn't. Ergo, Control ending is a delusion on the part of the new Shepard flavored AI who in reality looks out for and ensures a future for the many by harvesting them into reapers.



I must assume that because you ignored all the other points brought up you could not come up with a rebuttal and therefore agree with my assessment (your interpretation is invalid). Versus simply ignoring them and regurgitating the same arguments that have already been shot down, killed and buried like you did with this latest post of yours.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 14 août 2012 - 04:23 .

[The Twilight God]

Fat Head wrote...

Even if it doesn't, it's solid enough that I can finally replay the game and actually enjoy the endings.

Glad I could help.

[Eterna]

No, just because you choose and think Destroy is the best option doesn't mean that everyone who didn't pick it is indoctrinated. Sheesh.

[clennon8]

Eterna5 wrote...

No, just because you choose and think Destroy is the best option doesn't mean that everyone who didn't pick it is indoctrinated. Sheesh.

You would say that.  You're indoctrinated.

[Eterna]

clennon8 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

No, just because you choose and think Destroy is the best option doesn't mean that everyone who didn't pick it is indoctrinated. Sheesh.

You would say that.  You're indoctrinated.

And you're genocidal. 

[Ranger Jack Walker]

@Eterna5 Don't bother man. Words of wisdom are lost on these guys.

[Eterna]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

@Eterna5 Don't bother man. Words of wisdom are lost on these guys.

Well honestly, if they want to believe that anyone who didn't pick destroy is indoctrinated I say let them. They're just trying to find justification for the genocide they commited. 

" Oh god, I stabbed the Geth in the back and killed EDI! oh god!....but wait it's okay the other endings must be bad somehow right!?!?! Right!? They must be indoctrinated to choose those options ! So I was right! I'M THE GOOD GUY LOVE MEEE"

Modifié par Eterna5, 14 août 2012 - 06:48 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

You see, they need to believe their choice is the correct one. But seeing how insecure they are, the only way they can believe in their own choice is to discredit the other choices as well as the people who made them.

[clennon8]

I actually don't need any version of IT to justify choosing Destroy. It just happens to fit quite nicely in a game where the villains' most terrifying weapon is indoctrination. Go figure.

It sure does seem important to some of you Synth-heads that I believe you aren't indoctrinated.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Nah, I'd rather you not try to force your views on others as the OP has done several times in several other threads.

[clennon8]

Well, I can't speak to what OP has said or done in other threads. Although I have to wonder how one "forces" his views on a discussion board. It sounds like you think he's trying to indoctrinate you. Is he transmitting infrasonic noise and subliminal messages through your monitor?

Anyway, we're in this thread right now. And what I see is some insecure Synth-heads flailing their arms a lot while making little or no attempt to understand the OP material.

Modifié par clennon8, 14 août 2012 - 11:24 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

clennon8 wrote...

 It sounds like you think he's trying to indoctrinate you. Is he transmitting infrasonic noise and subliminals messages through your monitor?

You never know man, you never know...

[The Twilight God]

ZajoE38 wrote...

How can someone still believe in indoctrination?

How can you not?

By all means, explain how it makes any sense whatsoever that after 3 years of conflict with the Reapers, denouncing synthesis and denouncing and actively opposing the idea of trying to control the Reapers for the entirety of the game literally up to mere moments prior to speaking with the Kid, that at the very end Shepard makes a complete 180 degree turn and decides to put all his faith in the Reapers. So much faith, in fact, that he is willing to commit suicide on at their behest and do so to adavance the Reapers' agenda?

How do you explain this outside of textbook indoctrination? Because if Shepard isn't indoctrinated neither was Dr. Kenson the Arrival DLC.

Please, we're all waiting for your riveting explaination. Take your time.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Picking Destroy is also trusting the Catalyst.

[Necrotron]

Might as well pick destroy and assume Shepard is indoctrinated because by the time I'm finished with the end sequence, everything feels so contrived and nonsensical, 'it was all a dream' might as well be the interpretation of it all. I'd much rather remember Soverign and the Mass Effect 1 plot for what it was. 

Not to mention, everyone else who ever dealt with Reapers ended up indoctrinated, so why would Shepard be any different?

Modifié par Bathaius, 14 août 2012 - 07:27 .

[clennon8]

Let me save TTG the trouble of once again pointing out that this isn't an "It was all a dream" thread.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

It's very similar and it's the exact same in function: To make Destroy seem like the only good option.

And I'm laughing at one of the OP's previous posts where he states that refusing is an indoctrinated choice because Shepard loses the will to fight. That would be the exact opposite of what refuse is.

[The Twilight God]

ajb314 wrote...

Still not sure about question 2. If the conversation is in Shepard's head than that would explain why Shepard never sees Anderson beforehand. If Anderson is actually there, I don't see a solid explanation for why they came out in different places.

Consider the secondary relays. They are capable of going to other secondary relays within range. If there are multiple mimi relay points within the Citadel then it is not all that surprising that the London Conduit can send people to any one of these points. It may cycle through them in sequence so that one area isn't quickly filled up as they are herding people through the conduit.

ajb314 wrote...

And this just occurred to me as I was writing (But I might just be exhausted too)...What if TIM is there but Anderson is not? TIM could be indoctrinating Shepard and so Shepard "shields" his mind with an image of Anderson. I would need to listen to the exchange again to see if TIM ever addresses Anderson directly. I know he refers to "the words of an old soldier" but does he ever speak to Anderson? Feel like I am getting too far out there. I would need to see the entire scene again to make more sense of it. I'll check back again soon.

He does speak to Anderson and addreses him as "admiral". At one point he says, "the two of you..." Not only that but he pulls the gun from Anderson's belt, and will shoot Anderson if you don't shoot him first. One issue I have with the hallucination is that TIM will kill Shepard if you don't shoot him. But could this be representative of Indoctrination winning out. It's far too speculative.

[clennon8]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

It's very similar and it's the exact same in function: To make Destroy seem like the only good option.

And I'm laughing at one of the OP's previous posts where he states that refusing is an indoctrinated choice because Shepard loses the will to fight. That would be the exact opposite of what refuse is.

I might disagree with him on that point, too.  But the fact is that it doesn't matter.  If you Refuse, you lose, because you didn't destroy the Reapers.  Period.  Indoctrination is moot.

[clennon8]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

It's very similar and it's the exact same in function: To make Destroy seem like the only good option.

I want to speak to this some more.

Mass Effect is what it is.  A trilogy of games about villains who use indoctrination as their most powerful, insidious weapon.  Bioware made a game about indoctrination.  That isn't my fault.  That isn't OP's fault.  It isn't even your fault.  IT is a natural extension of the that flat out incontrovertible truth.

You seem to think (or want other people to think) that IT (in all its variations) is simply about making people who chose Synthesis and Control feel stupid.  No.  It isn't about YOU.  It's about dealing with the fact that Bioware made a game about indoctrination. They even gave us examples of indoctrinated villains who favored Synthesis and Control, while having every damn friend and ally in the game repeatedly tell us that the Reapers needed to be killed.

Now if you can reconcile those facts with choosing Synthesis or Control, then good for you, I guess.  If you like being indoctrinated, that is.  But if you feel bad or unsure or insecure or angry about it, that isn't OUR fault.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

There is little reason to believe that Destroy isn't some indoctrination attempt too. Only refusing the Catalyst would be a logical way to break this attempt but that turns out great doesn't it?

So there is no way to win. I guess that goes perfectly with the Lovecraftian inspiration the reapers had. No one wins against anything from the Cthulu Mythos.

[clennon8]

I have reason to believe that the Crucible was built to destroy the Reapers. I mean, maybe that's a really wacky assumption, but it somehow seems sound to me. So, yeah, I'm going to give shooting the tube a try. Seems like a better idea than committing suicide by grabbing live plasma conduits or throwing myself off a ledge.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that the reaper's so called CSD is incredibly flawed. It's crappy design and the serious lack of effort it takes to thrawt their CSD compared to the normally complicated plans of the reapers is enough to completely dismiss the CSD's very existence.