1238 réponses à ce sujet

[FreddyCast]

Arrival DLC
Harbinger: Struggle, if you wish. Your mind will be mine.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Your theory hinges on damn right everyone including Bioware lying and you being the only one who saw through their 'lies'

Your theory still fails to answer why the Starchild would tell you how to destroy him. He could have let Shepard try to figure it out him/herself. He makes no attempt to stop you should you choose destroy. None. Even if it is trying to trick, when it sees you're not falling for it's 'lies' it should logically do whatever it takes to stop you. But it just stands there.

Your point about the narrators in each ending talking about their hopes about the future is correct. But the slides themselves are actual scenes from the future. Bioware has already stated that the events in the slides do happen. As does the Stargazer scene. And since they do happen, your theory weakens even more.

[ediskrad327]

there are no indoctrinated endings

[Ranger Jack Walker]

ediskrad327 wrote...

there are no indoctrinated endings

Don't bother telling these guys that. To them, everyone who disagrees is either stupid or lying.

[Fat Head]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Your theory hinges on damn right everyone including Bioware lying and you being the only one who saw through their 'lies'

Yes to the first part, no to the second.  Indoctrination is not about honesty, and if Bioware's intentions are to indoctrinate the player, then why on earth would they be honest about it?  The theory has nothing to do with TTG being the ONLY one to see through it.  He's certainly not the first to suggest indoctrination, just the first to make such a well organized post where it points out most of the evidence that is actually in the game.

Ranger Jack Walker wrote... 

Your theory still fails to answer why the Starchild would tell you how to destroy him. He could have let Shepard try to figure it out him/herself. He makes no attempt to stop you should you choose destroy. None. Even if it is trying to trick, when it sees you're not falling for it's 'lies' it should logically do whatever it takes to stop you. But it just stands there.

Actually no, it doesn't.  The theory addresses it right away, in option 1.  As for standing around and not stopping you?  If the star child is a hallucination brought on by indoctrination, how exactly would it stop you?  I'd really like to know, so if you could explain that, please do.

The Twilight God wrote...

Option 1: Destroy the Reapers
 
"It is now in your power to destroy us".
 
The Catalyst is not a fool. It is wise to put this option on the table first as it is going to be the first and only thing on Shepard’s mind. In fact, it is the very first inquiry Shepard makes after introductions are made asking, “I need to stop the Reapers. Do you know how I can do that?” The Catalyst knows that it has to tackle the most obvious threat to its continuation before it can even bother to introduce its own suggestions. If it tried to ****foot around the Destroy option it would garner suspicion and its motivations would be immediately brought into question. The Catalyst's only hope is to maintain the illusion of impartiality and otherwise convince Shepard that its options are simply more beneficial. But at the same time it cannot portray Destroy too harshly or it risks appearing biased right from the start. The Catalyst has to play it safe and smart. Although in the throes of an indoctrination attempt, Shepard is not indoctrinated; but he is highly susceptible to suggestion.
 
It immediately begins to paint a dire picture. The negativity associated with Destroy will form the baseline for making its upcoming options more palatable. The Catalyst says, "But be warned: others will be destroyed as well. The crucible will not discriminate.  All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic.” It further adds, “Technology you rely on will be affected.” Shepard will have to sacrifice his friend, EDI, and his new Geth allies; Negating his work in securing a peace with the Quarians and discarding the sacrifice of his friend Legion. Shepard has to destroy that which flies in the face of the Catalyst's assertions about organic-synthetic relations.
 
Oh, and don't forget that "The Chaos" will return. Can't have that, right? Shepard is forced to accept this assertion. However, this is the least of Shepard's trust problems as will be covered in later segments of this thesis. Shepard's lethargic tendency to accept the Catalyst's assertions actually make sense in an indoctrination scenario. 
 
This entire exchange is intended to make Shepard hesitate and second guess his objective.  The Catalyst also notes that Shepard’s body contains synthetic parts to imply that the Crucible will target him as well. It wishes to remove self preservation as a factor in Shepard's decision. Not only that, but it brings into question rather or not the Crucible may hurt or kill multitudes of innocent people who depend on synthetic technology for their survival. In this way Shepard's decision is weighed solely on the negatives associated with destroying the Reapers verses the apparent lack of negatives (in comparison) associated with the Catalyst's upcoming suggestions.
 
The Crucible is made out to be the equivalent of a sawed-off shotgun being used to create an incision for open eye surgery. Now that the Reapers have soured the taste of using the Crucible for its intended purpose they offer their own suggestions. Shepard has not been fully indoctrinated, but he is susceptible to suggestions. Shepard is clearly not all there and the Catalyst is playing on that fact.  

 

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...  

Your point about the narrators in each ending talking about their hopes about the future is correct. But the slides themselves are actual scenes from the future. Bioware has already stated that the events in the slides do happen. As does the Stargazer scene. And since they do happen, your theory weakens even more.

Once again, if Bioware is attempting to indoctrinate the player, then why wouldn't they lie?  It's not like they haven't lied about other things in the past.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Maybe you need to read the theory more carefully. In the OP's theory, the citadel sequence is not a hallucination. Or atleast that's what he makes it seem like. The Starchild is not not a hallucination. It is a hologram but if it is indeed controlling the reapers, then it should do something to stop you.

It does not need to intervene. Without the Catalyst's help, it's unlikely Shepard would have figured out how to use the Crucible. The OP's scenario about EDI figuring it out is just that: a scenario. Something that can't be proven or disproven and is thus conveniently used as fact.

Saying that Bioware is lying is also a cop-out. Something that can't be proven or disproven. An easy way to dismiss any contradiction.

[Fat Head]

 

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Maybe you need to read the theory more carefully. In the OP's theory, the citadel sequence is not a hallucination. Or atleast that's what he makes it seem like. The Starchild is not not a hallucination. It is a hologram but if it is indeed controlling the reapers, then it should do something to stop you.

ajb314 wrote...

@Ranger Jack
Not trying to be a jerk here, but it is you that did not understand the theory in this case. The OP is pretty clear that he thinks the star brat might be a hallucination. According to the OP Shepard IS actually standing in that room, but there may not be VI interface. If you were standing in that room with him, you would see Shepard talking to himself. He has even stated more than once that the kid might never have existed at all. He may have been "inserted" into Shepard's mind by the Reapers in the first place. But this part is speculation and the OP knows it's speculation. That's why this thesis is so well done...He is extremely conscious about which parts are guesses and which parts are not. It seems to me that everyone who agrees with this idea is trying very hard to separate out cold-hard fact from guesses and speculation. The kid MIGHT be an AI and it MIGHT be a hallucination. We just don't know. But the fact that he does not stop us in any way implies that he is, in fact, an hallucination.

This. 

 

Ranger Jack Walker wrote... 

It does not need to intervene. Without the Catalyst's help, it's unlikely Shepard would have figured out how to use the Crucible. The OP's scenario about EDI figuring it out is just that: a scenario. Something that can't be proven or disproven and is thus conveniently used as fact.

So Shepard is just an idiot who can't figure anything out for his/herself?  Oh ok.  Guess I had that wrong then.  Silly me.

 

Ranger Jack Walker wrote... 

Saying that Bioware is lying is also a cop-out. Something that can't be proven or disproven. An easy way to dismiss any contradiction.

 

It's not really a cop-out unless it's being claimed as fact.  Which it's really not.  That's why this is all still just a THEORY.  If all theories were instantly disproven because they couldn't be proven yet, we'd still have square globes and all live in England.

[megamacka]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

there are no indoctrinated endings

Don't bother telling these guys that. To them, everyone who disagrees is either stupid or lying.

This is kinda how I feel that YOU are treating others.
If you don't like this interpretation then why can't you just

?

Why are you so keen of giving it your all to try and ruin the ending for others? Is this somehow the goal that you have set in your life? I am curious. 

Modifié par megamacka, 16 août 2012 - 06:02 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Again, even if the Starchild is a hallucination, if the reapers are trying to indoctrinate him, if the reapers did 'insert' him into his/her mind, should they try to stop him if he/she is 'breaking free'?

Whether or not the Child is a hallucination or not, if something is trying to indoctrinate Shepard, then they would try harder to stop him/her when their attempt is failing. Doesn't matter if the starchild is a hallucination or not. If he is real then he should make the reapers stop Shepard. If he isn't real and the reapers inserted him into his mind, then the reapers themselves should try to stop him.

NOTHING tries to stop Shepard. Why? Are the reapers just that stupid?

[clennon8]

Look, people. At this point, it is impossible - absolutely 100% impossible - that this guy is anything other than a troll. Just ignore him. Eventually he will go away.

I'm serious, not one more response to any of his posts.  Self restraint.  You can do it.

Modifié par clennon8, 16 août 2012 - 10:08 .

[Fat Head]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Again, even if the Starchild is a hallucination, if the reapers are trying to indoctrinate him, if the reapers did 'insert' him into his/her mind, should they try to stop him if he/she is 'breaking free'?

Whether or not the Child is a hallucination or not, if something is trying to indoctrinate Shepard, then they would try harder to stop him/her when their attempt is failing. Doesn't matter if the starchild is a hallucination or not. If he is real then he should make the reapers stop Shepard. If he isn't real and the reapers inserted him into his mind, then the reapers themselves should try to stop him.

NOTHING tries to stop Shepard. Why? Are the reapers just that stupid?

That requires the assumption that every reaper is linked into this attempt at indoctrination and is watching the events unfold.  There's nothing that would indicate that is even possible.

I suppose that Harbinger (assuming it's him attempting indoctrination) could inform the other reapers that Shepard would need to be taken out, but that would also assume that Harby wasn't at all arrogant and expected his plan to succeed.  Remember there's no indication that their attempt would fail until Shepard is actually climbing the Destroy ramp, and from that point, it's something like 30-45 seconds max, before Shepard destroys the tube.  If Harbinger (or another Reaper who'd have received a signal with even less time) wasn't close enough to do anything in that time frame, then there'd be nothing they could do.

Again, this is all assuming that the reapers set aside their arrogance to actually prepare for someone possibly defeating them.  I think that the original IT would be more likely than that....

[Fat Head]

clennon8 wrote...

Look, people. At this point, it is impossible - absolutely 100% impossible - this this guy is anything other than a troll. Just ignore him. Eventually he will go away.

I'm serious, not one more response to any of his posts.  Self restraint.  You can do it.

Whoops.  Troll engaged.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

clennon8 wrote...

Look, people. At this point, it is impossible - absolutely 100% impossible - this this guy is anything other than a troll. Just ignore him. Eventually he will go away.

I'm serious, not one more response to any of his posts.  Self restraint.  You can do it.

Isn't it about time you say something that adds to the thread instead of flamebaiting? Just a suggestion...

Modifié par Ranger Jack Walker, 16 août 2012 - 06:53 .

[megamacka]

What exactly is the starbrat supposed to do to stop him other than make synthesis/ control appeal like better options than destroy? Shep is a few seconds away from the destroy option and with an entire fleet protecting the crucible, the reapers wont get through in time to destroy it. And shep is one tough son of a B, I doubt fully indoctrinating him is easy.

Id like to believe that it all takes place at the control panel next to anderssons body. The whole '' trolololo, magic platform and for some random reason shep falls unconscious but only for a few seconds '' makes me face palm it's just pure stupidity. And what we see is the whole indoctrination attempt. I highly doubt it though, the whole lololo magic platform only unconscious for 2 sec, OH LOOK THE PLATFORM IS FLYING!! IT CAN FLY is just probably some stupid idea one of those damned writers randomly came up with and thought it was cool ( it's not .... ).
Atleast the platforms in the collectors base LOOKED like they could levitate. The one shep gets lifted up on is made of some kind of see through material and doesn't seem to contain anything in order to make it levitate. 

how it should have ended 

Modifié par megamacka, 16 août 2012 - 07:26 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

He raised the platform that leads to the pipe right?? Lower it. It's that simple.

My point is that the Reapers make to too easy for Shepard. It makes no sense that it would be this simple for Shepard to choose Destroy if the reapers don't want him/her to choose it. Since this theory requires the writers to be absolute geniuses, it's pretty glaring flaw.

Modifié par Ranger Jack Walker, 16 août 2012 - 07:56 .

[megamacka]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

He raised the platform that leads to the pipe right?? Lower it. It's that simple.

My point is that the Reapers make to too easy for Shepard. It makes no sense that it would be this simple for Shepard to choose Destroy if the reapers don't want him/her to choose it. Since this theory requires the writers to be absolute geniuses, it's pretty glaring flaw.

Never happened in my ending, because in reality it's all taking place on the console :innocent:.
Anyway. Why would it be simple for him to choose control then? '' And I am not looking forward to being replaced by you ''.
Why couldn't the reapers just throw a random body into the beam and create this synthesis ending themselves? What makes shepard ready? Is that why they wanted his body all along? How long is a piece of string? The reapers are cycles upon cycles of uber technological beings and they still failed attempting synthesis. Or maybe not? The reapers are kind of a '' synthesis '' organics and synthetics harvested into one. I don't want to become a reaper..... 

  Harbringer was shooting his lazorz at the aircrafts and people/vehicles rushing towards the beam he was too busy with that to shoot down the normandy ( you have hundres of people rushing to destroy you and you shoot down someone fleeing? Nope ). He then flew away because he thought that everyone was dead ( his an arrogant douche and doesn't bother to check twice as made clear throughout the entire series ). When you shoot someone with a gigantic lazer they usually die. 

  Shep then makes it to the beam and up onto the citadel which the space rapists never thought would happen, then the whole Tim sequence happens whereas he attempts to control shep using the awesomenez studies powers from sanctuary.  Tim is being controled by the reapers so obviously his a way of '' trying to stop shep''. This fails because shep is a badass and now you have the crucible docked with an entire galaxies combined fleet defending it and perhaps five minutes max to destroy the crucible. Good luck.

  So they attempt to finalize the indoctrination and make control / synthesis appeal more happy and disney ( presuming that they even exists ). Who built those two options anyway?:alien:

'' Synthesis is not something that can be forced '' Oh yeah right.... I guess shep making this decision for EVERYONE isn't forcing 

Modifié par megamacka, 16 août 2012 - 08:44 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

I never got the arguement that Synthesis is a happy disney ending. In which disney movie does the hero die? Neither is control a disney ending.

[Hannah Montana]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

I never got the arguement that Synthesis is a happy disney ending. In which disney movie does the hero die? Neither is control a disney ending.

Synthesis is a disney ending, you think everything is alright but if you peel away the covers you see right through the false lies.

[megamacka]

 '' 
 So they attempt to finalize the indoctrination and make control / synthesis appeal more happy and disney ( presuming that they even exists ). Who built those two options anyway? ''

I said '' they '' as in the space rapists aka Reapers because that's how he tries to make it sound. '' It is the final step of evolution '', you will control us no strings attached blah blah blah. You wont be enslaved by us or become like us from synthesis I promise * trollface. What makes shepard so special that he can finalize synthesis whereas the reapers through countless cycles could not themselves?

  Was shep born with two noodles or something? '' Oh he already has synthetics inside him from lazarus project '' I've heard that before. So .... that was the secret!? The reapers could not install synthetics into a random guy and throw him in? 

  Some people seem to see synthesis / control as the happy disney ending EVERYONE lives yay! What's that you say? Question what this random starbrat that I just met 10 seconds ago says? The guy responsible for those whom tried to kill me and the entire galaxy throughout the series? I think not. 

Modifié par megamacka, 16 août 2012 - 08:52 .

[The Twilight God]

Disagree with my thesis? Fine. Give me one good reason why Shepard would trust the Reapers. Just one reason. Just one teenie tiny itsy bitsy teenie weenie lil reason.

*room in absolute silence*

*cough*

Should we order pizza while we wait?

*akward silence*

I'll that as a "yes". I think we'll be here for awhile.

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

*cricket noises*

*eats pizza*

I guess we'll be sleeping here tonight. Glad I brought my sleeping bag.

*yawn* Good morning everyone. Seems like -Whoa! Ranger Jack has come up with one teenie tiny itsy bitsy teenie weenie lil reason to trust the Reapers!!!

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Your theory still fails to answer why the Starchild would tell you how to destroy him.

 
Oh... more of this. You had me all excited there thinking you might actually have posted something intelligent.

Oh, yeah, and to your coment: See first post. All answered in thesis since day one. I've even added a new sections to parts 1 -3 which go into more detail on events throughout the endings and series as a whole. The "logical deduction" part is presented as a numbered list so you can point out exactly where I've gone wrong number by number. Looking forward to an intelligent response that isn't just a glorified tantrum. *crosses fingers*

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Your point about the narrators in each ending talking about their hopes about the future is correct. But the slides themselves are actual scenes from the future. Bioware has already stated that the events in the slides do happen. As does the Stargazer scene. And since they do happen, your theory weakens even more.

Stargazer tells us that things work out sometime in the future at a undisclosed time and place. It doesn't prove that the Reapers did not continue the cycle in Control, that everyone worked together in harmony immdeiately following Destroy or that "free will" is maintained in Synthesis. And although synthesis is an indoctrinated ending it isn't necessarily bad. That's a matter of opinion. The endings boil down to Destruction, Freedom and Enslavement.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Hannah Montana wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

I never got the arguement that Synthesis is a happy disney ending. In which disney movie does the hero die? Neither is control a disney ending.

Synthesis is a disney ending, you think everything is alright but if you peel away the covers you see right through the false lies.

Even though you assumption is wrong, what you describe is exactly what a disney ending is right? I thought disney endings were the hero and his love living happily ever after or something. You know, the type of scenario only remotely possible in Destroy. Shows what I know...

[Fedi.St]

The Twilight God wrote...

Fedi.St wrote...

twilight god. It may seems that we were both wrong.

http://dl.dropbox.co...ation_small.png

 
Doesn't seem that way to me.
 
Couple of problems:

1. Whatever it is it is small enough to fit within the "grasp" of the Crucible dock fingers. There is no possible way all that stuff could fit into a shape that thin. My guess is that it eventually breaks off like those other parts we see.
2. Those contraptions have cables running into the Citadel. It isn't something that just laying on top of the Citadel. Follow the cables on both the Control and Power Junction and see where they lead.
3. There are no bendable parts. All the canitlevers are solid steel or finished concrete. No joints.
4. If you look to your right past the power junction you'll notice some of the parts that would be the extended "legs" of this proposed nubbin extend underneath parts that are definitively the Citadel (looks like a walkway for 2 addtional future endings). Which means it would have to slide in vs. extending over and setting down on top.
5. The rings of solar panel looking parts on the inside of the cantilevers have no breaks for folding even if it was possible for the rest of the contraption to fold.
6. Pic #6 in the photo doesn't even match up with the actual contraption on the Citadel or the nubbin. Somebody pulled that model out of their ass. It completely ignores entire sections of the thing and look nothing like it is presented in pic #1 (which is clearly a cylinder).
7. There is still the issue of the walkway that forks into three paths (I think this is more Bioware presenting a conversation wheel so I'm willing to ignore it)

Conclusion: It is physically impossible for that object to to be the contraption in question.  

I could answer on by one all of your points but because this is just a game I can't. They may just rushed it. But it makes sense that this is part of the crucible.


ALTHOUGH.
I still believe the whole crucible thing  COULD be a contigency plan from the reaper side.
Hackett mentions that the plans are strangely simple . He probably means that any civilization could build this.
This really reminds me the way that the whole citadel-organics relationship is based on.


ALSO 
It could be @ face value that this is it. This is the end. These are the 3 way to resolute the reaper threat!


OR

we could have the the refuse ending to be the real cannon here.
If they really wanted to close the door to any speculation they wouldn't put it in. They have somekind of possible plan if some criteria are to be met.


I believe bioware doesn't really know what to do with the situation. They improvise. So anything is possible. Except having the ending stay as it its. From leviathan we gonna see some changes. 

So even if the mechanism is crucible -attached this doesn't mean that it couldn't be another reaper trap!

[Hannah Montana]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

I never got the arguement that Synthesis is a happy disney ending. In which disney movie does the hero die? Neither is control a disney ending.

Synthesis is a disney ending, you think everything is alright but if you peel away the covers you see right through the false lies.

Even though you assumption is wrong, what you describe is exactly what a disney ending is right? I thought disney endings were the hero and his love living happily ever after or something. You know, the type of scenario only remotely possible in Destroy. Shows what I know...

Not all disney endings are like that so no.

[megamacka]

Immortal cyborg ultras.... Welcome to the imminent overpopulated galaxy.