1238 réponses à ce sujet

[megamacka]

So happy that I didn't buy Leviathan, it's cheesy as feckz.... Youtube ftw. Seems like we are screwed whatever choice we pick now. These awesomezors uber l33t surviving Leviathans seem to be able to control.... Anyone.... And everything, including shepard and reapers <.<. And they '' enslaved '' the '' lesser species's '' of their time. Yeah.... Congratz everyone! We are all going to get enslaved, even after the reapers are dead lol...

   Bioware officially pulled a George Lucas ala Phantom Menace lol....

Modifié par megamacka, 28 août 2012 - 07:33 .

[megamacka]

MegaSovereign wrote...

OP have you seen this video?

www.youtube.com/watch

I for one had not seen it, thought I had seen them all . THank you it was a good video.

The Twilight God wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Op, is your theory, rival to, in accordance with, or totally separate from regular (dream theory) IT?

I don't think it's a dream, so it's seperate. 

It all happens, but indoctrination is attempted. It's up to the player rather or not the attempt fails or succeeds. 

 

Do you ever think Bioware will come out and admit it? That this is true? Seriously, I know that they swapped writers with every game. But if this all isn't indoctrination which I find VERY unlikely ( id like to believe that the writers are not mentally tarded ) then they would be going against everything that has been hinted/ talked about and even confirmed throughout the entire series..... Or maybe the writers staff was indoctrinated? And they aided the reapers in obtaining the '' final evolution ''.....

   Anyway, do you think they will EVER come out of the closet lol.... Or will they continue to hide?

Modifié par megamacka, 28 août 2012 - 07:41 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Spoilers for Leviathan:

















Catalyst does in fact exist and is not a hallucination. I'm not going to comment on whether the theory is debunked or not but the kid definitely exists and it's purpose is what it states. Even the Leviathans agree that even though the Catalyst betrayed them its still staying true to its programming.

[Fat Head]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Spoilers for Leviathan:

















Catalyst does in fact exist and is not a hallucination. I'm not going to comment on whether the theory is debunked or not but the kid definitely exists and it's purpose is what it states. Even the Leviathans agree that even though the Catalyst betrayed them its still staying true to its programming.

Having played Leviathan this morning I can confirm this.  I haven't gotten to the conversation with the catalyst yet, so I don't know what's changed there, but regardless it still puts a big dent in this theory.  

It's really a shame, because now I just feel like someone is trying to force a bad idea down my throat, just because they were upset that I didn't like it in the first place.

EDIT:  Unless of course Leviathan is lying about everything too, but that would just make everything WAY more convoluted than it already is and I can't believe Bioware would be THAT stupid.

Also, a bunch of people are saying that the DLC discourages the Destroy and Control options, which is false.  It just doesn't encourage them.

Modifié par Fat Head, 28 août 2012 - 11:30 .

[Fat Head]

ajb314 wrote...

I have not bought or played the new DLC, but youtube has worked fine...How does the reality of the AI debunk this idea? In my view it adds clarity to the idea. We now know that Shepard is, in fact, talking to an AI and not a hallucination. The AI still has the ability to read Shepard's mind (as evidenced by the fact that it is still in the form of the child) and still wants to survive at any cost. Leviathan says that they were never given a reason for why the AI turned on them. In a control ending, Shepard could use the Reapers to hunt down the remnants of this species. Reapers win. In Synthesis, The Reaper goal would be complete in that all life in the galaxy (including Leviathan) would now be "Reaperized". Reapers win. It seems to me that self-preservation is still foremost on the catalyst's mind. Destroy remains the only option where the Reapers "lose" the war. In that case, it is still lying about the choices. Let me add that Leviathan does seem to confirm that the Crucible is not some kind of Reaper trap but was created by a species attempting to defeat the Reapers. It therefore makes even more sense that the Reapers would build the fail-safe devices described in this thesis.

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but isn't this theory relying on the appearance of the catalyst/boy being in Shepard's head as of a result of an attempt at indoctrination?  If it's real, then that there would be evidence against the theory.  And if it's a real AI, how is it reading Shepard's mind?  I don't recall anything in the ME lore that hints at AIs being able to do that.

[The Twilight God]

megamacka wrote...

So happy that I didn't buy Leviathan, it's cheesy as feckz.... Youtube ftw. Seems like we are screwed whatever choice we pick now. These awesomezors uber l33t surviving Leviathans seem to be able to control.... Anyone.... And everything, including shepard and reapers <.<. And they '' enslaved '' the '' lesser species's '' of their time. Yeah.... Congratz everyone! We are all going to get enslaved, even after the reapers are dead lol...

Bioware officially pulled a George Lucas ala Phantom Menace lol....

I'm guessing it can't control synthetics. It never controls the reaper, it uses a weapon to remove its power. The same thing it used on the shuttle presumably.

I'd rather be under the Leviathans and pay them tribute than a smilling idiot (that asari makes me laugh in synthesis) husk or a lose my cultural identiy under Prothean servitude. I think they included Leviathan to forshadow a new enemy that the Stargazer's grandkid will have to fight.

megamacka wrote...

Anyway, do you think they will EVER come out of the closet lol.... Or will they continue to hide?

If they have any self respect and want to maximize sales, yes.

However, afterwards they'd need to make some new endings to replace the current ones. I have a way where synthesis can work as an ending more believably. Even control. Without any indoctrination and it all making sense. And the Reapers dying in both scenarios. However, Destroy would have to be changed so that control wasn't objectively better than both Synthesis and Destroy. But I have an idea for that too.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 29 août 2012 - 04:04 .

[megamacka]

Starbrat dialogue post ending

[megamacka]

Fat Head wrote...

ajb314 wrote...

I have not bought or played the new DLC, but youtube has worked fine...How does the reality of the AI debunk this idea? In my view it adds clarity to the idea. We now know that Shepard is, in fact, talking to an AI and not a hallucination. The AI still has the ability to read Shepard's mind (as evidenced by the fact that it is still in the form of the child) and still wants to survive at any cost. Leviathan says that they were never given a reason for why the AI turned on them. In a control ending, Shepard could use the Reapers to hunt down the remnants of this species. Reapers win. In Synthesis, The Reaper goal would be complete in that all life in the galaxy (including Leviathan) would now be "Reaperized". Reapers win. It seems to me that self-preservation is still foremost on the catalyst's mind. Destroy remains the only option where the Reapers "lose" the war. In that case, it is still lying about the choices. Let me add that Leviathan does seem to confirm that the Crucible is not some kind of Reaper trap but was created by a species attempting to defeat the Reapers. It therefore makes even more sense that the Reapers would build the fail-safe devices described in this thesis.

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but isn't this theory relying on the appearance of the catalyst/boy being in Shepard's head as of a result of an attempt at indoctrination?  If it's real, then that there would be evidence against the theory.  And if it's a real AI, how is it reading Shepard's mind?  I don't recall anything in the ME lore that hints at AIs being able to do that.

Why would this matter? He can still be a real AI, but if he controls the reapers / are a part of the reapers then obviously he can indoctrinate and read his mind through them.... I doubt the '' ME lore '' matters here either lol. I bet an AI created by the leviathans are a bit more.... technologicly advanced. Thousands/ milions of cycles = more tech.

How did you think that they/ he got the kid from shepards mind? Or did the kid just magicly randomly happen to represent the same kid back on earth? :-)

It's all silly space magic anyway.

Modifié par megamacka, 29 août 2012 - 02:20 .

[The Twilight God]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Catalyst does in fact exist and is not a hallucination. I'm not going to comment on whether the theory is debunked or not but the kid definitely exists and it's purpose is what it states. Even the Leviathans agree that even though the Catalyst betrayed them its still staying true to its programming.

First, any Reaper induced hallucination is still real. Like when Harbinger appeared before Shepard at the end of Arrival. A hallucination, but still real. The conversation did take place. It was true communication between the two. This is proved by the fact that the Collector General appears if you do it pre-suicide mission and Shepard never encounters the Collector General to know what it looks like (which is quite different from a normal collector). So to make things clear, reaper induced hallucinations can still be real. Not physically tangible, but real nonetheless. It has never been stated in my thesis that the Kid is just something Shepard dreamt up in his own head. That would be Shep losing his mind which wouldn't even make it indocrination and wouldn't make sense given the outcome of each ending.

Second, regardless of rather or not Starbinger is a Reaper(s) or a distinct entity is not proven in the Leviathan DLC. Only the existence of "the intellegence" is mentioned by the Leviathans. And it never says, "Oh and by the way it's in the Citadel". Rather or not that "intelligence" actually exists on the Citadel and is the thing Shepard converses with is another story. The mass relays were created after the advent of the Reapers, not before. And the Citadel is definitely not tailored to facilitate giant cuttelfish. It's the realy hub and a reaper nursery. So in actually it adds another level of iffiness to the Kid's claim to "live there", as it existed before the mass relay network, and presumably the Citadel, existed. Leviathan's race might have used a more Star Wars type FTL. 

"The Intelligence" can be a form of quantum software (like a super geth) existing within all Reapers or any hardware it pleases, on the Leviathan homeworld away from any relays or not even be "in the field" anymore. It could be out in darkspace at the location the Citadel relay would connect to (wherever the Reapers would wait in darkspace). It's all speculative at this point.

Is it doing what the Leviathans said it's doing. Yes. Does that mean Synthesis is actually the ideal solution? No. Does it mean Control is now a rational choice? No. As I said before the DLC came out it doesn't really affect IT that much and that hasn't changed after seeing the full script. And what little does affect it is in favor of my veiws.

"No reason given when they turned against us. Only slaughter." Oh, so you didn't like that outcome? Wasn't expecting  that? Reasonable response.

"There was no mistake. It still serves it's purpose." Huh? So you're OK with them doing what they did and continue to do?

"They are the enemy" But.. w-what?!?! Make up you mind!!! They either did bad or did good. They f'ed up or everything is proceeding as planned.

So is the middle comment just a result of pride? Not willing to admit that they screwed up due to a ridiculously overblown ego? Hmm? Something to think about.

Let's continue...

"The intelligence has one purpose: to preserve all life. That purpose is not being fullfilled." So IS it serving it's purpose or not? Make up your mind, Squidward...


"Until the Intelligence find what it is looking for the harvest will conitinue" It always struck me as odd that an organic race younger and technologically inferior than the Reapers could make a device (the crucible) that the Reapers were encapable of making themselves. Another reason to cast doubt on synthesis being ideal seeign as they should have made their own battery and just tossed someone in, but now it makes synthesis even worse.

Well, at the end of Synthesis it still hasn't found what it's looking for. I've established in my thesis that synthesis canot be the Reapers ideal solution. I saw synthesis as either good or bad, an end to free will as we know it with everyone presumed to survive, but even synthesis now seems as if it will end in a harvest and the remaining people will become the collectors of the next cycle. Or the Reapers simply make another Crucible and de-synthesize the galaxy after they finish making new reapers. Speculation for everyone.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 29 août 2012 - 02:55 .

[The Twilight God]

Fat Head wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Having played Leviathan this morning I can confirm this. I haven't gotten to the conversation with the catalyst yet, so I don't know what's changed there, but regardless it still puts a big dent in this theory.

It puts no dent whatsoever in my thesis as I never state one way or the other that there is a distinct entity seperate from the Reapers. I personally BELEIVE it is Harbinger, but there isn't enough evidence to assert that claim as fact. Hence I stated the belief in the last part under "speculation for everyone". And Leviathan does not confirm that that intelligence is what we speak to on the Citadel nor turns any of its lies into truths. It actually makes synthesis go from the "good or bad ending depending on perspective" to "just a bad ending". Now all endings are crappy with Destroy simply being less crappy than the rest, only in the fact that we survive.

The rachni organic quantum entanglement bit gave me an idea for another ending. 

Fat Head wrote...

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but isn't this theory relying on the appearance of the catalyst/boy being in Shepard's head as of a result of an attempt at indoctrination? If it's real, then that there would be evidence against the theory. And if it's a real AI, how is it reading Shepard's mind? I don't recall anything in the ME lore that hints at AIs being able to do that.

If the Reapers can indoctrinate and get into people's heads why wouldn't the Reaper Commander, the collective intelligence of all reapers, be able to utulize this technology? Reapers are technically AI's too so indoctrination in the series has mainly been from AIs.

I still don't think there is an AI physically on the Citadel. I still think it's Harbinger, but even if it is The Intelligence it's projecting itself to Shepard via the Reapers or nearby reaper tech. *cough* the contraption *cough* It's not actually there as it was created prior to the relays and presumably the Citadel.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 29 août 2012 - 02:45 .

[The Twilight God]

ajb314 wrote...

@The Twilight God
Out of curiosity, why do you think that the starchild is Harbinger? Just a hunch? Or do you base it on something specific within your thesis? When I first posted in this thread I commented to you that I thought 'the Catalyst' was built by the Reapers as one of the fail-safes in case the Crucible was ever completed (Meaning that it was created alongside the 'control console' in order to direct Shepard towards synthesis or control and away from destroying the CSD). I still think that the Catalyst could be a tangible AI, although I don't necessarily believe that it is the 'creator AI' described by Leviathan.

1. He's in the vicinity of the Crucible. He is the Reaper that grabs that cruiser in the space scene after you reach the Conduit. He has taken personal interest in Shepard, had stated he would prefer shepard intact and spares him on the Conduit run in order to indoctrinate him. It makes sense that for Shepard's indoctrination he would  "direct this personally". It seems highly plausible to me that it would be him from a story perspective vs. some random reaper we've never interacted with.

2. The "So be it" voice is associated with him. It strikes me as Harbinger dropping the charade since it sees Shepard is completely broken when choosing Refuse. The need for deception is over and it no longer has to keep up pretenses.

3. He is the "leader" of the Reapers. The Rannoch reaper says he knows of Shepard because Harbinger speaks of him. This implies they aren't some amalgamated consciousness or just mindless tools under a single group mind, but individual independent nations of AIs (like Sovereign states). Harbinger has to tell the others about him. They don't share thoughts under some singular overlord AI. Not saying the intelligence didn't start it all, can't influence the Reapers or doesn't monitor their activities; but I think each reaper is very much self-aware and aren't being forced against their will as their will is what the intelligence designed it to be. Hardwired indoctrination, if you will.

4. Continuing from the last point, Leviathan even implies this by saying, "each formed in Harbinger's image. Our image". A humanoid form would actually be more efficient than the cuttlefish forms. The Collector Base gives me the impression that Harbinger is conducting the creation of Reapers himself. Even if Starbinger made Harbinger it would seem that Harbinger functions of its own volition even if it's purpose was established by another entity. In a similar way that EDI works of her own volition, but still continues to do what she was made to do: Serve the Normandy crew. Harbingers believes in the work the intelligence is doing.

It could be the intelligence, it could be some other AI or it could a reaper. It's all specualtion.There isn't enough information to known for sure. But the exact nature of Starbinger isn't relevent. It changes nothing.

ajb314 wrote...

Edit: As for my hypothetical second point, I know you have made this statement before, but the new DLC seems to lend credence to the fact that we basically need to ask the Reapers permission to use the device meant to destory them.

The DLC makes it sound like the Crucible is just something that is meant to destroy the Reapers, but it's never been tested before. I don't think it lends credit to the concept of needing the Kid to work. Not sure where you're getting that from or did you just mistype that last part?

I'm actually wondering if the Leviathans made the Crucible. When I look over the conversation It never says they didn't. It just says it has watched other "lesser races" try to build it and none have succeeded. It even drops eye contact with Shepard as if unconfortable with the subject. Typically a sign of dishonesty. That fact that it is supposed to kill all synthetics indiscriminately and disable the relays may be for the Leviathan's benefit as they aparently didn't use mass relays to get around and can't control synthetics. This puts them in a superior position to reclaim their lost glory as they can still move around at will, no organic force can challenge them head on and no synthetics are left to complicate their takeover. Just something to think about.

Even if this was the case and it was intended to interact with the Kid, it is still made to Destroy. Synthesis and Control? Those options don't benefit the Leviathans. And if the Crucible was designed with the intelligence in mind and it does shackle it it would only proves that control isn't possible as the AI is unable to simply call off the Reapers. And. of course, still doesn't explain why those two options are already there prior to the Crucible docking. So no matter what, Destroy is the only purpose the Crucible itself serves.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 29 août 2012 - 05:26 .

[The Twilight God]

MegaSovereign wrote...

OP have you seen this video?

www.youtube.com/watch

From what I gather he is making a video stating the obvious: Everyone wants the Reapers dead except for the indoctrinated.

Of course nobody on Shepard's side backs Control or Synthesis. One is never considered possible until the last 4 minutes and the other doesn't even exist as far as Shepard is concerned until the very last minute. Shepard has no reason to think either is truly viable. Not that any of his team would recommend comprimising with the Reapers even if those two options were considered in the first minute of the game.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 29 août 2012 - 06:17 .

[The Twilight God]

megamacka wrote...



Starbrat dialogue post ending

You'd think something like a Reaper creator race would be more... I don't know - important. Not just in terms of Starbinger chat, but I mean to the story. I felt Javik added more to the sotry than the Leviathans. You run around searching for these things, you find them and then that's it. It's like you never really found them at all. Just an arbitrary number to bolster EMS. 

[megamacka]

The Twilight God wrote...

megamacka wrote...



Starbrat dialogue post ending

You'd think something like a Reaper creator race would be more... I don't know - important. Not just in terms of Starbinger chat, but I mean to the story. I felt Javik added more to the sotry than the Leviathans. You run around searching for these things, you find them and then that's it. It's like you never really found them at all. Just an arbitrary number to bolster EMS. 

Funny how shep still wonders whom created the reapers lol. Even though you've met the leviathans and discussed it already xD. I feel like Bioware are shooting themselves in their feets atm lol. People complained about the starbrat going all '' You would not know them and there is not enough time to explain '' when you asked whom created the reapers. And now.... It just feels like they are trying to slowly '' repair '' the plot holes and are doing it in a horrific way. Imo the Leviathans are just lame, not like we got to know much about them and they feel completely unimportant ( kind of like adding a random completely new guy in the last 2 minutes of the game that '' gives you your choices '' ).

  To me, the Leviathans are just some random squid boring alien species that looks --tarded and adds nothing to the story/plot that we did not already know and are put into the game WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too late and has too little of an impact. And seriously, who got the brilliant idea to make the Leviathans look like that? Did they seriously HAVE to make them look like squids, couldn't the reapers just be.... reapers and not some leviathan copies?.... Complete and utter waste of both development time, our money and time... Touché, they should call George Lucas and discuss how they can further sell toys and DLCs......

   PS. I still love you Bioware <3 You've given me way too much to make me angry at you ( Dragon age Origins and the ME series with exceptions ). JUST PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! STOP HOLDING THE GUN TO YOUR HEADS AND ASK US TO PULL THE TRIGGER!

  The reapers had their mystique, they were the horrors of space. They should never have tried to explain them, only what they wanted ... sure. But not their origin imo, they completely ruined the mystery behind them -.-.
Sometimes, less is more. 

Modifié par megamacka, 29 août 2012 - 06:27 .

[Fedi.St]

Twilight god how do you see Mass Effect 1 lore being connected to your theory?

I mean how the starbrat left sovereign helpless and let shepard succeed if it can control reapers?


EDIT scrap that already answerred

Modifié par Fedi.St, 29 août 2012 - 09:52 .

[Fedi.St]

The Twilight God wrote...



I'm actually wondering if the Leviathans made the Crucible. When I look over the conversation It never says they didn't. It just says it has watched other "lesser races" try to build it and none have succeeded. It even drops eye contact with Shepard as if unconfortable with the subject. Typically a sign of dishonesty. That fact that it is supposed to kill all synthetics indiscriminately and disable the relays may be for the Leviathan's benefit as they aparently didn't use mass relays to get around and can't control synthetics. This puts them in a superior position to reclaim their lost glory as they can still move around at will, no organic force can challenge them head on and no synthetics are left to complicate their takeover. Just something to think about.

Even if this was the case and it was intended to interact with the Kid, it is still made to Destroy. Synthesis and Control? Those options don't benefit the Leviathans. And if the Crucible was designed with the intelligence in mind and it does shackle it it would only proves that control isn't possible as the AI is unable to simply call off the Reapers. And. of course, still doesn't explain why those two options are already there prior to the Crucible docking. So no matter what, Destroy is the only purpose the Crucible itself serves.

This is the first thing that crossed my mind bro.

Btw watch closely as the camera zoom in his eyes. It's like he 's hiding something(leviathan dude). Nervous about something.

Watch his exact words "We have watched its construction before, it has never being completed".

And how the hell races were able to design and construct something with synthesis/control choice. They fall in the citadel trap and they are all stranded. 

My guess is "crucible is just a contigency plan for reapers theor" or  most probably "leviathans  saving grace theory".

They way they presented dlc is hinted that they know more about the crucible than what they are letting out.
Bioware is going somewhere. Let's wait for it.

Modifié par Fedi.St, 29 août 2012 - 10:03 .

[OdanUrr]

Okay, I tried reading it all the way through but I'm afraid I failed. What I did read, however, leads me to the following points.

Much, if not most, of what is written is your opinion/conjecture on any number of things, such as the Crucible Suppression Device (which is actually kind of smart), Shepard being indoctrinated, the Crucible's one and only purpose being Destroy, the Catalyst's attempts to deceive Shepard, etc.

The truth is we know nothing of the Catalyst, nothing of the Reapers, and nothing of the Crucible, and what little the Catalyst tells us you dismiss as lies to convince Shepard not to destroy the Reapers. He may be lying about everything, nothing or something, but we can't conclusively prove that he is. Also, we can't say, "he lied about A so he must be lying about everything," that's just an assumption.

You describe the Catalyst's actions from the basis that he's trying to deceive Shepard during an "indoctrination attempt," but I read no proof that Shepard's being indoctrinated at all. However, as I didn't finish through I might have easily missed it. If it's there, I shall read and consider it. But in the end it all hinges in this being some elaborate charade to what end? If the Catalyst hadn't forced the encounter with Shepard, the latter would've bled to death and the Reapers would have won. You said yourself that they had already created a device that would render the Crucible useless, so why take the chance with Shepard?

Time and again it's mentioned that "destroy is the goal of the galaxy." Well, that's likely true. My Shepard's goal was to stop the Reapers as stated by him at the end of ME1. Here I must stress that "stop" does not equate "destroy." Sure, destroying the Reapers is a way to stop them and the only way Shepard knew of at the time of the events of ME1.

In an intriguing turn of events, however, ME3 continuously forces Shepard to disagree with TIM's view that controlling the Reapers is the way to win, and has Anderson and Hackett advocating for destroying the Reapers. To my mind this was done to force a confrontation between Shepard and Cerberus in order to have an enemy besides the Reapers to fight throughout ME3, in other words: this forced viewpoint was introduced to create gameplay. After all, a Renegade Shepard might still be in good terms with TIM at the end of ME2. Not so much at the beginning of ME3.

But then, if external (outside of the game) forces play a part in determining how characters act and react, why do we waste time trying to find internal forces that justify said actions and reactions? I don't see any internal force that can explain Renegade Shepard's sudden change of heart in ME3 as to Cerberus' role. This is not the only example, mind you, just one of the most prominent ones.

Back on topic, Destroy does seem to be the goal advocated by your allies. The problem is, nobody knows what the Crucible is, what it does, or how it works, yet one party claims it'll control the Reapers while another claims it will destroy them. All they know (somehow) is that the Crucible is capable of releasing "unquantifiable amounts of energy" (or something such). I'm sure the same could be said about mass effect cores and yet they're used to power spaceships. I don't recall seeing anyone drop a mass effect bomb on an unsuspecting crowd but I could be mistaken. By the way, if memory serves, Shepard never deigns himself to ask TIM how he knows the Crucible will be able to control the Reapers, he just goes along with it all for the sake of the plot. Does this mean anything? Yes, that Shepard has the curiosity of an amoeba, but that isn't saying much.

Again, the problem is a lack of data or, rather, characters acting as though they know things you don't and the one character you control has a rather worrisome case of a lack of curiosity. Indeed, this was the case (and not the only one) with the original endings where Shepard decided to forego asking the Catalyst about some key unknowns. But, once more, we know that Shepard's "lack of curiosity" is not in small part influenced by the more stream-lined nature of dialogue in the game, another example of an external force.

I won't go into further detail for the moment or this post will become larger than was intended. My point is that, throughout the length of ME3, external forces have played a part in determining how characters act: what they say, what they do. There are lots of things that make little to no sense and whenever this happens people either dismiss it, chalk it up to indoctrination, or invent some other contrived explanation. Now I have no problem with conjectures as long as we recognise them as such until such time as Bioware decides to acknowledge them, if ever. I do mind, however, when we elevate those to the status of fact, because then we'll use them as a basis to construct other opinions or conjectures.

To finish this, I'll leave this quote from one of my favourite authors that perhaps conveys my meaning better:

"I believe in evidence. I believe in observation, measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll believe anything, no matter how wild or ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be."

I'll let you guess who he is.

[The Twilight God]

OdanUrr wrote...

Okay, I tried reading it all the way through but I'm afraid I failed. What I did read, however, leads me to the following points.

Much, if not most, of what is written is your opinion/conjecture on any number of things, such as the Crucible Suppression Device (which is actually kind of smart), Shepard being indoctrinated, the Crucible's one and only purpose being Destroy, the Catalyst's attempts to deceive Shepard, etc.

The majority of your post is too generalized. You should address my thesis point by point.

It would be best if you took your time and addressed one analysis at a time instead of trying to read it all and then after the fact essentially state it's conjecture "just because" without going into any detail. If you really want to rebute my thesis you might be better of replying to a particular post and use quotes from said post. Then explain exactly what you disagree with about the indivudal points and why.

If your point is, it's just a game and the story doesn't matter because of the player's involvement then you're wasting your time here. This thread discusses the story of Mass Effect. Shepard is a character within this universe and as such his actions cannot be attributed to the whims of some demi-god outside the story (i.e. the player). The reason for this is that a player is not in a life or death situation. Therefore, a player cannot be the source of Shepard's motivation. The player can pretend to be Shepard, but Shepard has a distinct personality and character that the player has little to no influence over.

OdanUrr wrote...

"I believe in evidence. I believe in observation, measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll believe anything, no matter how wild or ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be."

I'll let you guess who he is.

Here are some other quotes from the same individual

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”

“Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.” 

"When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."”

[The Twilight God]

megamacka wrote...

Funny how shep still wonders whom created the reapers lol. Even though you've met the leviathans and discussed it already xD.

But then he remembers again and asks Starbinger about the Leviathans. 

Talk about being haphazardly thrown together. In another thread some pointed out how they removed those brief clips that showed you what the ending entailed. They literally just ripped them out. for Destroy it's not very noticable, but for Control its very obvious to the point of looking like a glitch. 

megamacka wrote...

I feel like Bioware are shooting themselves in their feets atm lol. People complained about the starbrat going all '' You would not know them and there is not enough time to explain '' when you asked whom created the reapers. And now.... It just feels like they are trying to slowly '' repair '' the plot holes and are doing it in a horrific way. Imo the Leviathans are just lame, not like we got to know much about them and they feel completely unimportant ( kind of like adding a random completely new guy in the last 2 minutes of the game that '' gives you your choices '' ).

I guess next we find out who designed the original concept of the Crucible. I think it was the Leviathans using a "lesser race" as proxy for building and deploying it. Perhaps Starbinger is unaware and assumes that some "lesser race" somehow managed to surpass the Reapers in the creation of the Crucible which just seems inconceivable.

megamacka wrote...

  To me, the Leviathans are just some random squid boring alien species that looks --tarded and adds nothing to the story/plot that we did not already know and are put into the game WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too late and has too little of an impact. And seriously, who got the brilliant idea to make the Leviathans look like that? Did they seriously HAVE to make them look like squids, couldn't the reapers just be.... reapers and not some leviathan copies?.... Complete and utter waste of both development time, our money and time... Touché, they should call George Lucas and discuss how they can further sell toys and DLCs......

I don;t mind them looking like that, but I think it would have been better if they were more organic looking. They look like they are made of rocks. Horrid design. They even have the slit down the center... but that's a reapers main gun. The actual organic race shouldn't have that. They don't even look like they evolved in an ocean.



If I wanted them to by aquatic I'd have them look similar actual cuttelfish in form, but with dolphin-like skin and intelligent eyes (vs. glowing spots). They look too much like actual reapers. They would have an array of very thin tentacle under the larger "walker" tentacles that together gave them the same dexterity, if not more, as the human hand. And they'd be able to change colors and they'd be about the size of killer whale.

megamacka wrote...

  The reapers had their mystique, they were the horrors of space. They should never have tried to explain them, only what they wanted ... sure. But not their origin imo, they completely ruined the mystery behind them -.-.
Sometimes, less is more. 

I'd have went with a more metaphysical appraoch then trying to explain them as just of thing of this world. That way even in explaining them you don't. You can explain something metaphysical while at the same time explaining nothing. Because we can't relate to it. It would translate as alegory. They could keep their mystique. And you'd have the good kind of speculation.

[megamacka]

Speculation for everyone!

But then he remembers again and asks Starbinger about the Leviathans. 

Talk about being haphazardly thrown together. In another thread some pointed out how they removed those brief clips that showed you what the ending entailed. They literally just ripped them out. for Destroy it's not very noticable, but for Control its very obvious to the point of looking like a glitch.  

Wait.... You mean when you see shepard standing touching the '' pillar thingies '' and getting burnt to ash?
So...... Basically they don't want us to see that shepard gets reaporized or liquified before we make our choice? 
Oh dear, speculations speculations and even more speculations.... 

 It's funny how both the leviathans ( and the reapers? ) have watched the '' lesser species '' try to build and add to the crucible before. Yet they have NO IDEA what it's suppoused to do..... <_< I guess that the ones building it from the start had no idea either. I guess that they were immune to '' mind reading, indoctrination and all that other stuff that could have been used on them too ''. Or maybe they just started building something without even knowing what it does. '' Hey Bill! What are you building there? ..... I have no idea, but it's supposed to stop the reapers .
Lets leave a message and let every continued cycle add and build upon it, no one will ever know what it does.
Oh look! It's not a massive EMP, its got some kind of space magic device in it that allows a big wave to be used in order to genetically EVERYONE against their own will or control the reapers. 

   Gigantic EMP release or space magic control / synthesis release? Pick your choice.

Modifié par megamacka, 30 août 2012 - 03:47 .