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[The Twilight God]

Fedi.St wrote...

And how the hell races were able to design and construct something with synthesis/control choice. They fall in the citadel trap and they are all stranded. 

From what I gather the Reapers are the one's who built the synthesis array and control prongs.

Assuming, the Kid is hardwired into the Citadel and the contraption was built as a failsafe how do you see synthesis and control working in the Leviathans' favor? Obviously it wasn't built for one of their own kind to use.

For synthesis perhaps it allows them to control synthetics as well as organics.

I can't figure out how control could serve their purpose.

Just something else that came to mind just now. What if it is the Leviathans that caused the organics to fight the synthetics. That the Chaos is their doing, the Reapers are doing what the Leviathans desired, BUT they didn't expect it to blow up in their faces. If they cannot control synthetics they may have seen them as an eventual threat and ordered there thralls to destroy them which resulted in the death of their thralls. It would be funny if the Morning War was instigated by the Leviathans. Never made sense how irrational the Qurians reacted to the geth when they attained sentience.

It just makes no sense that synthetics ALWAYS kill their creators. I might have to do another section just based on the Leviathan DLC.

[megamacka]

It just makes no sense that synthetics ALWAYS kill their creators. I might have to do another section just based on the Leviathan DLC.

Problem logics?

'' Hey ! I notice that all of you got this problem with crazy AI s ? Let me help by creating an AI to solve your problem with other AI ''

No but srsly. It kinda makes sense yet not. What's stopping organics from destroying themselves ala nuclear warfare? Or one species from wiping out every other species? What is stopping one species to create a synthetic army and take over?

I kinda see what they went for, AI will go for self preservation or see organics as inferior or simply as a threat to themselves but now with the Geth whom are obviously very friendly. Can't the reapers just F off? But when a machine asks '' do I have a soul '', I think it makes sense to panic a bit ( they never aimed to create such smart synthetics ).

I may be wrong, it might have already been said otherwise but isn't it pretty obvious that the control / synthesis choices are put there by the illusive man ( control ) and synthesis by the reapers ( they tried before ). I don't see how ANYONE can argue against it.

And the Leviathans probably started everything by their damned '' calculations ''. Perhaps they just assumed that shiet was about to go down between organics and synthetics. I am not 100% sure if they mentioned that it did infact happen in their cycle or not but I think it's still kinda R-tarded to assume that just because it happened once it HAS to happen every god damned time for an eternity..... Then again, I think they abandoned logics a long time ago. The entire plot in ME3 is so filled with plot holes that my head is about to explode.

  Do shepard even mention the Geth whilst talking to the Leviathans?
Scratch that, the leviathan DLC never happened.... F it, I have to headcanon EVERYTHING these days.  So much that never happened.... 

  If the Leviathans or reapers WANTED the crucible to happen and we were just '' guided '' towards it..... WHY THE F DODELDI FCK DID THEY PUT ALL OF THOSE DODELIDODELIDIDELI PANELS IN THERE!?!?!?!?!

 Reapers    - Hah those stupid organics creating our device for us! Lets put an option in there to destroy us. No wait lets not, let them figure that out and add that themselves but lets NOT put anything in there in order to sabotage or stop it would it happen except for a stupid tube that can be destroyed by a handgun. And yes allow the illusive man to put in an option there to control us or maybe we will do it ourselves?

Leviathans    - Hey we were added post ending DLC and we don't really matter. we are just a number on your screen and we make the already stupid stuff even more stupid. Lets guide the organics to enable them to ally themselves with our enemy the reapers or perhaps control them? What happens if a douchebag ala renegade shepard gets to control them? Even worse than it already is? Why did we put those options there anyway? Why didn't we ONLY put destroy there.... Oh well... Space magic 

Btw, something I just remembered.... Do they ever give an explanation for the human reaper in ME2? Or did they abandon that too?

Modifié par megamacka, 31 août 2012 - 12:51 .

[The Twilight God]

megamacka wrote...

Problem logics?

'' Hey ! I notice that all of you got this problem with crazy AI s ? Let me help by creating an AI to solve your problem with other AI ''

No but srsly. It kinda makes sense yet not. What's stopping organics from destroying themselves ala nuclear warfare? Or one species from wiping out every other species? What is stopping one species to create a synthetic army and take over?

I kinda see what they went for, AI will go for self preservation or see organics as inferior or simply as a threat to themselves but now with the Geth whom are obviously very friendly. Can't the reapers just F off? But when a machine asks '' do I have a soul '', I think it makes sense to panic a bit ( they never aimed to create such smart synthetics ).

I may be wrong, it might have already been said otherwise but isn't it pretty obvious that the control / synthesis choices are put there by the illusive man ( control ) and synthesis by the reapers ( they tried before ). I don't see how ANYONE can argue against it.

And the Leviathans probably started everything by their damned '' calculations ''. Perhaps they just assumed that shiet was about to go down between organics and synthetics. I am not 100% sure if they mentioned that it did infact happen in their cycle or not but I think it's still kinda R-tarded to assume that just because it happened once it HAS to happen every god damned time for an eternity..... Then again, I think they abandoned logics a long time ago. The entire plot in ME3 is so filled with plot holes that my head is about to explode.

  Do shepard even mention the Geth whilst talking to the Leviathans?
Scratch that, the leviathan DLC never happened.... F it, I have to headcanon EVERYTHING these days.  So much that never happened.... 

  If the Leviathans or reapers WANTED the crucible to happen and we were just '' guided '' towards it..... WHY THE F DODELDI FCK DID THEY PUT ALL OF THOSE DODELIDODELIDIDELI PANELS IN THERE!?!?!?!?!

 Reapers    - Hah those stupid organics creating our device for us! Lets put an option in there to destroy us. No wait lets not, let them figure that out and add that themselves but lets NOT put anything in there in order to sabotage or stop it would it happen except for a stupid tube that can be destroyed by a handgun. And yes allow the illusive man to put in an option there to control us or maybe we will do it ourselves?

Leviathans    - Hey we were added post ending DLC and we don't really matter. we are just a number on your screen and we make the already stupid stuff even more stupid. Lets guide the organics to enable them to ally themselves with our enemy the reapers or perhaps control them? What happens if a douchebag ala renegade shepard gets to control them? Even worse than it already is? Why did we put those options there anyway? Why didn't we ONLY put destroy there.... Oh well... Space magic 

Btw, something I just remembered.... Do they ever give an explanation for the human reaper in ME2? Or did they abandon that too?

Only time will tell. But I get a sneaking suspicion that they gutted ME3 to milk fans for DLC. The game had the same development time as ME2, without having to make large changes in graphics and gameplay, and yet the game is half as long as ME2. We paid for half a game and they intend to nickel and dime people in order to get the full game. Thank you, Youtube. for providing a means to see everything without paying Bioware a single cent. 

Modifié par The Twilight God, 01 septembre 2012 - 12:30 .

[megamacka]

Only time will tell. But I get a sneaking suspicion that they gutted ME3 to milk fans for DLC. The game had the same development time as ME2, without having to make large changes in graphics and gameplay, and yet the game is half as long as ME2. We paid for half a game and they intend to nickel and dime people in order to get the full game. Thank you, Youtube. for providing a means to see everything without paying Bioware a single cent.

You are correct. ME3 is actually INCREDIBLE short if you keep only to the mainstory, perhaps the shortest of them all. And 80% of the side quests ( Except for VERY few ) takes place in those tiny multiplayer locations. The world feels very small compared to ME2 and ME aswell. I remember roaming around on ilium doing side missions because they were actually fun and pleasing to do. I remember this side mission with that Krogan that you find a recording from in that cave in ME3 when he read poetry to his Asari lover, it had me smiling and laughing for a good few minutes. I REALLY REALLY miss those kind of side missions in the cities. I mean look at operation overlord for instance! That DLC is MAAAAASSSIIIIIVE compared to anything in ME3 even the last mission probably. And that side mission with the Quarian falsely accused of stealing on the citadel. Those kind of things is what made the world feel alive.

But in ME3 it's all about getting that number on your screen that doesn't really have a real impact and roaming around in tiny spaces ( seriously, the citadel..... what.... did...you do Bioware? ). The world actually felt like a real Galaxy in ME1 and 2, in ME3 it's like you are running around in the same small corridors getting from point A to B.

I would love to have seen what would have happened if the game did not have the improved combat, I in all honesty believe that the combat saved the game ( and that it's called Mass effect ) from being shoved to the side even by the fan base considering what a HUGE step backwards this was. I no longer felt like an epic space adventurer bad ass, I now felt like an action hero that I had almost no control over. The dialogue system was lacking Bioware... Don't give me that '' oh there is more dialogue in this game than ME1 and 2 '' perhaps small talk. But id rather have had less dialogue ( which I don't believe for 1 second ) and MORE GOD DAMNED OPTIONS!!!!!!!!!!! That's also one of the reason that the game felt so short and narrowed down, just look at ME1 and 2 and then at 3. You don't even get 20% of the same amount of dialogue choices it's pretty pathetic tbh.

If they just stopped caring they should've given it to someone else whom actually did care. The more I think of this game the more I realize just how lacking it is and it's sad. Because I want to like it, I really really do. But in the end of the day I think Bioware took a huge leap back and I sincerely hope that my favorite company of all time will jump back. I wont hold my breath but I am so excited to see what the Dragon age 3 development team can do and if they keep it as an RPG and don't try to '' actionalize '' it. That would make the world to me.... That would make me go all teary eyes.

None of this is HATE..... It's all tough love, Bioware has given me way too much for me to hate them but that doesn't mean that I can't be disappointed in the direction where they are going and I think that A LOT of REAL fans think the same way as me. But sadly the gaming industry is changing and they have to appeal to the..... kids.... Call of duty.... kids.. There I did it, I managed to put call of duty in this post...

Modifié par megamacka, 01 septembre 2012 - 11:18 .

[The Twilight God]

megamacka wrote...

Only time will tell. But I get a sneaking suspicion that they gutted ME3 to milk fans for DLC. The game had the same development time as ME2, without having to make large changes in graphics and gameplay, and yet the game is half as long as ME2. We paid for half a game and they intend to nickel and dime people in order to get the full game. Thank you, Youtube. for providing a means to see everything without paying Bioware a single cent.

You are correct. ME3 is actually INCREDIBLE short if you keep only to the mainstory, perhaps the shortest of them all. And 80% of the side quests ( Except for VERY few ) takes place in those tiny multiplayer locations. The world feels very small compared to ME2 and ME aswell. I remember roaming around on ilium doing side missions because they were actually fun and pleasing to do. I remember this side mission with that Krogan that you find a recording from in that cave in ME3 when he read poetry to his Asari lover, it had me smiling and laughing for a good few minutes. I REALLY REALLY miss those kind of side missions in the cities. I mean look at operation overlord for instance! That DLC is MAAAAASSSIIIIIVE compared to anything in ME3 even the last mission probably. And that side mission with the Quarian falsely accused of stealing on the citadel. Those kind of things is what made the world feel alive.

But in ME3 it's all about getting that number on your screen that doesn't really have a real impact and roaming around in tiny spaces ( seriously, the citadel..... what.... did...you do Bioware? ). The world actually felt like a real Galaxy in ME1 and 2, in ME3 it's like you are running around in the same small corridors getting from point A to B.

I would love to have seen what would have happened if the game did not have the improved combat, I in all honesty believe that the combat saved the game ( and that it's called Mass effect ) from being shoved to the side even by the fan base considering what a HUGE step backwards this was. I no longer felt like an epic space adventurer bad ass, I now felt like an action hero that I had almost no control over. The dialogue system was lacking Bioware... Don't give me that '' oh there is more dialogue in this game than ME1 and 2 '' perhaps small talk. But id rather have had less dialogue ( which I don't believe for 1 second ) and MORE GOD DAMNED OPTIONS!!!!!!!!!!! That's also one of the reason that the game felt so short and narrowed down, just look at ME1 and 2 and then at 3. You don't even get 20% of the same amount of dialogue choices it's pretty pathetic tbh.

If they just stopped caring they should've given it to someone else whom actually did care. The more I think of this game the more I realize just how lacking it is and it's sad. Because I want to like it, I really really do. But in the end of the day I think Bioware took a huge leap back and I sincerely hope that my favorite company of all time will jump back. I wont hold my breath but I am so excited to see what the Dragon age 3 development team can do and if they keep it as an RPG and don't try to '' actionalize '' it. That would make the world to me.... That would make me go all teary eyes.

None of this is HATE..... It's all tough love, Bioware has given me way too much for me to hate them but that doesn't mean that I can't be disappointed in the direction where they are going and I think that A LOT of REAL fans think the same way as me. But sadly the gaming industry is changing and they have to appeal to the..... kids.... Call of duty.... kids.. There I did it, I managed to put call of duty in this post...

When a person makes a mistake I can hold no ill will. A mistake is by definition unintentional. People will try to correct mistakes. But ME3 isn't a mistake. It's intentional and that intent has been rubbed in our faces. This is hate. I do not forgive willfull and conscious animosity. I don't care what past games have been great.

[The Twilight God]

Part I: Destroy Analysis
Part II: Control Analysis
Part III: Synthesis Analysis
Part IV: Refuse Analysis
Part V: The Catalyst's Deceptions

The implications of the Leviathans

 
 
The Chaos and Order the Reapers allude to is in fact philosophical perspective afforded to them by the Leviathans. Chaos is a galaxy that they cannot control. Order is a galaxy that bends to their will. Because synthetics are not affected by Leviathan indoctrination their very existence and those who create them are "chaotic". Furthermore, the Leviathans designed the Crucible and it is a double edged sword. The Crucible grants the Leviathans everything they desire.
 

Hypothesis:

 
Order: Leviathan Control
The Leviathans utilize a method of organic-based quantum entanglement to forcefully take control of the mental processes and motor functions of other organic species.  Ann Bryson asserts that she believes Leviathan is "entangling particles to stimulate neural activity. It uses the artifact to establish a connection, and then controls the mind of anyone near it." This is referred to as organic quantum entanglement. This hypothesis is based on the Rachni Queen's physiology. This capability has its limits. The Leviathans cannot fully control the entirety of a specie's population. A certain degree of freedom is maintained among a large enough population of thralls. This is evident in the fact that they cannot outright prevent their subjects from developing artificial intelligence. Leviathan claims that, "Before the cycles, our kind was the apex of life in the galaxy. The lesser species were in our thrall, serving our needs. We grew more powerful, and they were cared for. But we could not protect them from themselves."
 
Chaos: The Limitations of Leviathan Control
I hypothesize that Leviathan indoctrination, like Reaper indoctrination, only effects organics; their methods having no effect on synthetic life.  As such, the Leviathans are incapable of controlling the body and minds of synthetic life forms. Organics create synthetic s to improve their own existence, but those improvements have limits. To exceed those limits, synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators.  And they will continue to evolve and advance and surpass the Leviathans. If the entire galaxy comes to be filled with self-determinate life that cannot be bent to the will of the Leviathans, "chaos" ensues. The Leviathans enforced "order" upon the galaxy.  Because of this threat the Leviathans directed their thralls to destroy their creations. 
 
I notice on the wall painting at the dig site the people underneath the Leviathan are up in arms. They are attacking what appears to be a long limbed giant. I hypothesize that this humanoid which is larger and distinctly depicted as different from the organic is a synthetic life form. An "iron giant" if you will. Purely speculation, of course. However, the depiction the Leviathan shows Shepard in the dream realm is roses and butterflies , depicting happy people walking with children.  It is obvious that the Leviathans, like the Thorian, do not value other sentient beings as anything but a means to an end. In this scene the Leviathan claims the "lesser races" were cared for, yet in the same conversation claims they Leviathans were above the concerns of the "lesser species".  It is plausible that they would sacrifice them in a petty war against their creations once the tools were no longer worth the trouble. Leviathan says so itself that, "Every creature, every nation, every planet we discovered became our tools. We were above the concerns of the lesser species." The result is conflict, destruction, chaos.  It is inevitable. The synthetics prevail against their creators and after which the Leviathans destroyed the synthetics before they reached a level in which they could challenge them. These events represented the first manifestation of the cycles. These are the conflicts the Intelligence would later be tasked to bring to an amicable end.
 
The Advent of the Cycles
The Leviathans cannot fully control the entirety of a specie's population. A certain degree of freedom is maintained among a large enough population of thralls. This means that synthetics will inevitably be created and the Leviathans will be unable to maintain control of the galaxy. I postulate synthetics are a natural part of galactic evolution. Synthetic life is the final manifestation of physical life. This phenomenon did not affect the Leviathans because other organics are their synthetic equivalent: Tools used to improve their existence.  And given this instinctual culture of control, the concept of creating that which is outside the scope of that control did not exist prior to development of synthetics by mainstream organics.  Like the Thorian, the Leviathans are an anomaly of nature. To prevent the synthetics from surpassing them the Leviathans developed the cycles; All species advanced enough to create synthetic life would be eradicated so that no synthetic race could surpass them, leaving the younger races alone to develop and take their place as thralls. Because the Leviathans would rather throw the baby out with the bath water than allow the chance that they could be supplanted, that there would be a galaxy that they could not dominate, a galaxy in which they would be mere observers on the sidelines. They saw synthetics as the end of everything they knew. However, the cycles were eventually deemed wasteful and inadequate. The timing between the demise of one species and the ascent of another was too long. Tribute would lessen. To solve this problem once and for all the Intelligence was created.
 
"They are only echoes. We existed long before."
 
On Thessia Vendetta claims that there is an inferred presence influencing each cycle which extends beyond the Reapers in the conversation in which it starts off saying, " Our studies of past ages led us to believe that time is cyclical. Many patterns repeat."
 Shepard declares, "Like the Reaper attacks."
Vendetta responds, "And beyond. The same peaks of evolution, the same valleys of dissolution. The same conflicts are expressed in every cycle, but in a different manner. The repetition is too prevalent to be merely chance."
Liara later states, "We assumed the Reapers were responsible for the pattern".
 
This implies that the conversation is about something outside the scope of just the Reapers. Remember that according to the Catalyst the Reapers exist to serve as a solution to a problem. Vendetta is referring to the source of that problem.
 
Vendetta continues, "Perhaps.  Though I believe the Reapers are only servants of the pattern. They are not its master."
Shepard inquires, "So who is the master?"
Vendetta replies, "Unknown. It's presence is inferred rather than observed. The only certainty is its intention... Galactic annihilation."
 
What we have to remember in all this is that Vendetta is not merely speaking about the harvests. He is speaking about the individual cycles themselves. That is, the events that transpire within the histories of each cycles' species prior to the return of the Reapers. Hence the "and beyond" comment.
 
This cannot refer to the Kid if we accept its claims. The Kid states that it embodies the collective intelligence of the Reapers.  It even lumps itself in with them with words like "us" and "we". It would be like saying the Reapers are not the ones responsible for the pattern; the Reapers motivations are what is responsible for the pattern. The Reapers actions in no way infer an unknown motivation outside the observable actions of the Reapers themselves to explain their actions.  Furthermore, under normal circumstances, why would the Intelligence instigate organic-synthetic conflicts prior to the harvest? It is implied that the Leviathans provoked the Rachni wars and who is to say they didn't provoke the Morning War? It is hypothesized that the Leviathans instigated the Rachni War to prepare them to fight the Reapers. Or, they saw the Reapers weren't coming and took things into their own hands.
 
The Dawn of Intelligence
The Intelligence was first created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life; to establish a connection.  A connection? A link. A bond. To join together. The purpose of this bond was to formulate a means to incorporate synthetics into the Leviathans' thralldom. We know this as synthesis. I hypothesize that the synthetics resisted these attempts, comprehending the implications of becoming slaves:  Reverting back to mere tools.  And the organics resisted this as well for the same reason you or I would resist someone trying to force a surgical procedure on us. The Leviathan controlled governments, but not entire population. Individual resist to their desires is still possible. The Leviathans would use their thralls to attempt to enforce this ideology, but war with synthetics and civil unrest among organics hindered their efforts. Therefore the Intelligence's efforts always ended in conflict.  A new solution was required.
 
The Kid says, "We did what we were expected." And "And I welcome their involvement. We are only facilitating their request."
 
Leviathan says, " There was no mistake. It still serves its purpose."
 
When the Leviathans asked that the Intelligence solve the problem with conflict, they failed to understand that they were part of the problem themselves. The flaws of their organic reasoning could not perceive this. They lacked the foresight to understand that their destruction was part of the very solution they required. That is why the Leviathans were the first to be harvested into the first true reaper. Their destruction was the solution. They did not approve of this, but it was the only solution. However, not all of the Leviathans were harvested. Some of them avoided destruction. The Intelligence sought to complete what was started, to find and harvest the remaining Leviathans, but failed in this endeavor. The Leviathans continued to meddle in the affairs of organic civilizations, fearing that the advent of a synthetic lifeforms would bring about a day in which their own was surpassed as the apex. "Until the intelligence finds what it is looking for, the harvest will continue." The Harvests must continue until the Leviathans are found and eliminated.
 
"The Intelligence has one purpose: preservation of life. That purpose has not been fulfilled."
 
Its purpose is not being fulfilled and yet "It still serves its purpose". How is this reconciled?  I speculate that the destruction of civilizations that advanced  too far (i.e. old tools) was always a function of the Reapers. The harvest, and creation of the reapers, is just a refinement. An attempt to preserve life. I believe that as the Intelligence studies life to prevent the need for the cycles, it continued to annihilated every failure per the Leviathans' desire.
 
 
The Crucible: Tool of the Leviathans
The Leviathan breaks eye contact with Shepard at the mention of the Crucible. This is typically a sign of deception. It then says, " We watched its construction before. It has never been completed. Those who have tried still fell victim to the harvest. Its outcome is unknown."
 
The Crucible accomplishes the Leviathans immediate goals. It aims to eliminate all synthetics in the galaxy, eliminating direct resistance to any play they make to regain their former glory. It destroys the relay network, putting organics at a logistical disadvantage. Recall that the relay network was created after the Leviathans were overthrown for the benefit of up-and-coming organics. Leviathan states, " It directed the Reapers to create the mass relays--to speed the time between cycles for greatest efficiency." If this is the case, and the mass relays are a Intelligence technology it stands to reason that the Leviathans' galaxy spanning empire utilized a different means of travel. Something akin to the hyper drive technology of the Star Wars universe.  And most importantly it will be difficult for organic races to fight an enemy that can forcefully take control of an opposing force in a relatively short time. It will require both synthetics and organics to fight a effective war against them. Organics to breach their defenses and eliminate them. Synthetics to get close enough to engage them.
 
I hypothesize that the Leviathans have been using races within each cycle to construct the Crucible. It is a double edged sword. You eliminate the Reapers, however you make way for the Leviathans. The fact that the Leviathans do not reveal themselves and instruct organics to build the Crucible prior to the harvest is that they want to cycles' races weakened and exhausted when the weapon is deployed.  It's also possible that another race came up with the original design and the Leviathans are the ones who instigate the adaptation which utilizes the Citadel.
 
"Over the cycles the thrall races were controlled, removing traces of our existence as we directed them to."
 
Note that Leviathan says "cycles" - plural. A cycle encompasses all the space faring races of an era. This indicates that they have been actively involved in the affairs of organics in numerous cycles after the Intelligence "betrayed" them and went on the harvest the advanced races of that time. Furthermore, I do not believe the Reapers are under any delusion that the Leviathans were all dead. The Kid is in no way surprised and the Reapers were after the Leviathan themselves beforehand. This is why the Reapers harvest, because the continuation of the Leviathans and their meddling demands it.
 
What do we have to look forward to?
 
Why are asteroid workers (i.e. the Leviathans) researching:
1.Turian pain thresholds psychosis. The Leviathans' abilities cause physical pain when applied aggressively (Shepard, Hadley, Ann). Planning on aggressive indoctrination of the Turians?
2. They are speaking about taking whole colonies collector style.
3. Evolutionary implications of human biotics.
4.  Developing odd plants that are inconspicuous. The orbs aren't their only tools.
5.  How weather effects the Hanar government. Political manipulations.
6.  Estimating sixty days for global starvation on some world. Referred to as the merciful route?
7. There is a beta site that we never see in the DLC. People who are still thralls to the Leviathans.
8.  Working on corrupted skin samples in sector E
 
Speculate!!
 
I'm betting the geth weren't destroyed because they aren't traditional artificial intelligences. When the Leviathans designed the Crucible nothing like the geth existed. It isn't designed to go after them.  A ****** in their plans. I wouldn't be surprised if the next protagonist is a synthetic.  A terminator like the guy in Terminator salvation. Possibly a new form of synthetic that is powered by chemical reactions. Organic parts, necessity to eat, emotional, etc.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 02 septembre 2012 - 12:10 .

[megamacka]

The mass effect series is a pretty massive one. I sincerely doubt that this was the last game, I guess they could make a ME4 with the Leviathans as this '' last threat '' or something since they kinda hints that shepy did survive. I mean look at how many halo games we have.... Even an RTS ( a bit too many imo ). This universe has A LOT more to offer.
They could be planning a pre shepard game but if it's post ME3 then the leviathans would only make sense. They are still alive so what now? They go on about their own stuff or did they have an agenda all along? These are not petty children we are dealing with, they are '' the prime species '' smart as heck. Speculations indeed.

I wont hold my breath, but if Bioware decided to go with this route I wouldn't be surprised at all. It still doesn't make up for the many flaws of this game though and I don't even know what to feel or expect if they announce anything, atm I just feel hollow and depressed whenever I hear Mass effect.

Thanks for another well written post and it actually made me think, pieces of the puzzles are coming together. There are too many things pointing in the same direction that can simply not be assumed to be '' mistakes '' anymore. I guess the developers must have just graduated or something then? This is not some budget company, this is Bioware.

Modifié par megamacka, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:53 .

[The Twilight God]

megamacka wrote...

The mass effect series is a pretty massive one. I sincerely doubt that this was the last game, I guess they could make a ME4 with the Leviathans as this '' last threat '' or something since they kinda hints that shepy did survive. I mean look at how many halo games we have.... Even an RTS ( a bit too many imo ). This universe has A LOT more to offer.
They could be planning a pre shepard game but if it's post ME3 then the leviathans would only make sense. They are still alive so what now? They go on about their own stuff or did they have an agenda all along? These are not petty children we are dealing with, they are '' the prime species '' smart as heck. Speculations indeed.

I wont hold my breath, but if Bioware decided to go with this route I wouldn't be surprised at all. It still doesn't make up for the many flaws of this game though and I don't even know what to feel or expect if they announce anything, atm I just feel hollow and depressed whenever I hear Mass effect.

Thanks for another well written post and it actually made me think, pieces of the puzzles are coming together. There are too many things pointing in the same direction that can simply not be assumed to be '' mistakes '' anymore. I guess the developers must have just graduated or something then? This is not some budget company, this is Bioware.

Sheaprd doesn't have to be the prtagonist and it doesn't have to occur immediately. It could take place a thousand years in the future. Or if sooner, Shepard is still around, but out of commission; An old man like John Grissom. Whatever.

I'd think the new protagonist would be a hybrid organic synthetic. Something like the guy from Terminator Salvation. He could have a machine brain and nervous system composed of nanites confirgured to look and operate like neurons. Bone made of titanium and geth hopper-like musculature, but have organic parts. The body, because so closely built to resemble and function like organic issue could be powered by chemical reactions (i.e. eating and drinking). That way he can avoid indoctrination and survive a Leviathan energy sapping blast.

But this is all speculation. I think I might make a seperate thread as the Leviathan stuff doesn't exactly fit here as is.

[Code_R]

It's been a great read and I appreciate the details particularly about how the final three devices appear to be functioning, as some of this is over very quickly within the game. Your theory does hinge upon the idea that the Reapers have made the decision for Control and Synthesis to be available by building those devices... any speculation on why these options even exist? A single Reaper tech device being presented to Shepherd at the end which simply destroys the Crucible or allows for an overall Reaper victory would make more sense, particularly when the results are not perfectly aligned with their intents (as far as the Kid states).

Modifié par Code_R, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:54 .

[The Twilight God]

Code_R wrote...

It's been a great read and I appreciate the details particularly about how the final three devices appear to be functioning, as some of this is over very quickly within the game. Your theory does hinge upon the idea that the Reapers have made the decision for Control and Synthesis to be available by building those devices... any speculation on why these options even exist? A single Reaper tech device being presented to Shepherd at the end which simply destroys the Crucible or allows for an overall Reaper victory would make more sense, particularly when the results are not perfectly aligned with their intents (as far as the Kid states).

I'm sure we can all come up with ways in which the Reapers could ensure victory. But then there would be no way for the protagonsit to win, It's like asking why Soveriegn needed to dock with the Citadel when he could just have had a quantum entanglement remote control to patch him in? Why didn;t the collectors just deactivate the relay on their end and only turn it on when they needed to travel? Why does Saren stick around on Virmire if you do it last when he has everything he needs to find the conduit? I could go on and one.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 03 septembre 2012 - 08:04 .

[Zagardal]

Just realized I posted this on the "wrong" topic:

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The ending isn't nonsensical, it's just goddamn depressing.

Refusal is just being too stubborn to accept the fact that what they did wasn't enough, even if they clearly stated that they couldn't win in a conventional confrontation waaaay beforehand.

Destroy is going for the original purpose we had, but sacrificing the geth in the process. If you went renegade and didn't give a crap about them to begin with, it shouldn't be a problem. If you went paragon, this clearly should be too steep a price to pay. While refusal is all about rejecting the next stage in evolution, this is supposed to be the less extreme refusal choice. It says "we don't believe in your logic, but by choosing this we don't have a back up argument either". The whole idea of sentient synthetical intelligence being as important as organic intelligence is supposed to stop you from doing this, which would be the racist choice. Geth holocaust, plain and simple.

Control is thinking you have the will to command the reapers, which is a gamble considering that by merging with them, you might eventually assume their logic too and finish what they started. It could be millions of years later, but it could happen anyway. You save every species, but in the really really really long term something could change. It's the "paragon" choice, but for Shepard, not for the overall scheme; you might save everything you know, but that's ultimatelly just a grain of sand.

Synthesis makes you "one with the galaxy". Supposedly, it doesn't make you a reaper, a being with a great degree of conciousness but in the end still under the control of a higher form of intelligence. You could actually argue that we are the same in some way, bound to instinct and basic human logic: we are never told that the reapers are aware of starchild, they're just aware of what they must do in order to survive. Synthesis should preserve life as a whole, and while individuality suffers (but does not disappear entirely as we see in the EC), it merges everybody into a new plural entity. It's basically what every religious utopia offers to us, but because we also merge with "robots", part of which are the same that apparently brought all of this upon the unsuspecting masses, most people think it's too much even if it might be the better outcome; if jesus/budha/yoda/norris came to tell us he's going to save us all but not the way you though he would, a lot of people would be pissed. I see synthesis more as an organic-synthetic hybrid geth consensus than a reaper-like overtaking. It still kinda sucks that we can't get a ambiguous disney ending (we won the way we like/millions of years from now we're still screwed), or at least closer than what the destroy ending offers, but that would contradict a lot of what happens at the end. In a way, if synthesis was introduced as a possibility way before during the franchise (like a Saren 2.0), it wouldn't have felt so rape-like.
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[ToaOrka]

I honestly just don't think that Bioware is smart enough to come up with anything even related to Indoctrination Theory, you guys are giving them too much credit.

[megamacka]

I'm betting the geth weren't destroyed because they aren't traditional artificial intelligences. When the Leviathans designed the Crucible nothing like the geth existed. It isn't designed to go after them. A ****** in their plans. I wouldn't be surprised if the next protagonist is a synthetic. A terminator like the guy in Terminator salvation. Possibly a new form of synthetic that is powered by chemical reactions. Organic parts, necessity to eat, emotional, etc.

The geth and EDI are software, software can be rewritten and the hardware platforms can be rebuilt. Shepard takes a breath in the end credits yet he rely on synthetics. The Quarians seem to be fine, okay they probably have a backup plan should the suits fail but still. Nothing seems to have happened. The fleet seems to be fine except for the '' fast travel '' ( can't remember the name ) which is probably REAPER TECH?

It was said that the '' catalyst '' was theoretically supposed to '' focus '' the power beam onto the reaper. My guess is that it focused on REAPER TECH. This would also explain why the geth are targeted but not quarians as they have reaper tech in them after legions sacrifice. The relays are reaper tech, starships fast travel is reaper tech I think that they found on Mars for example not sure though. Quarians suits are NOT reaper tech, shepards synthetics? Probably not, as the illusive man wanted him '' as he were '' and reaper tech r probably not very '' indoctrination risk free ''.

Firearms are not targeted either, neither the space suits or life support of other species and ships it seems. I just find it hard to believe that it actually targeted all tech. EDI and the Geth had reaper tech in them yes, but I don't see why it would target anything else. The quarians have synthetic implants in them from day 1 in order to survive. So basically, if '' the crucible will not skip anyone/anything '' then the Quarians should've died instantly.

  Maybe the crucible was indeed the Leviathans doing and it was supposed to destroy the reapers all along. Hence why it would focus on REAPER TECH and reaper tech ONLY. But the Leviathans failed and were nearly wiped out before they could finish but they managed to salvage some of the crucible plans.

I honestly just don't think that Bioware is smart enough to come up with anything even related to Indoctrination Theory, you guys are giving them too much credit. 

One can always hope .
We have all seen throughout numerous of games what Bioware is capable off, and that they DO care. RPGs are what they do best and they do it better than anyone else. They have A LOT of talented people on their teams. I just hope that the emperor is right : 
  .  Just imagine if that is how the top people of Bioware are acting right now lol. Maybe the team are sitting there '' OMG WE WANT TO TELL THEM BUT WE CAN'T ! ''. One can always hope... and I do hope.... I have faith, yet it is slowly drifting away.

Modifié par megamacka, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:23 .

[The Twilight God]

ToaOrka wrote...

I honestly just don't think that Bioware is smart enough to come up with anything even related to Indoctrination Theory, you guys are giving them too much credit.

It doesn't matter if they intended it or not. It is what they wrote nonetheless.

I honestly can't bring myself to believe anyone being paid to write can be as bad as would be required to have intended the ending to have nothing to do with indoctrination.

As I posted in another thread....

Control

Kid: Hey, how about you kill yourself by disintegrating on that there reaper device because interacting with reaper devices always turns out good. We made the device to strip us of our free will and make you our leader. I wouldn't like it if you did that... *cough* that's why I had it built in the first place. Because we DON'T want you to use it.

Shepard: Derp! Sure!!! I just got finished telling TIM it wasn't worth risking all of humanity for, nt to mention the whole game opposing it. But now - five minutes later - I'm totally for it based solely on your say so, Mr. reaper king and I'm willing to kill myself, leaving no one else to save the day if you - the freaking reapers - are deceiving me. I'll ignore the fact that you've pushed this option on your indoctrinated minions every cycle. But I'm special and immune to indoctrination!! DERP!!!

Synthesis

Kid: I finally found a soultion to my galactic social studies assignment. You kill yourself by jumping into a beam and then everyone will have reaper .. I mean totally-not-reaper synthetic tech put in them. And the entire galaxy totally won't be pretty husks or indoctrinated in any way. Pinky swear.

Shepard: Derp!! Sure thing!!! But why didn't you do it yourself?

Kid: It can't be forced... Now please jump into that beam and force it on everyone.

Shepard: Derp!! OK. I eagerly kill myself to advance your objective, Reaper Commander. I'm totally NOT indoctrinated. DERP!!!

Refusal

Shepard: I know we cannot defeat you conventionally, but I'm goona die free and stuff.

Kid: What are you talking about? You're freedom isn't at stack. You life is.

Shepard: I die knowing I did everything to stop you.

The Kid looks over at "tubes" that, if destroyed, would allow the Crucible to fire. Thus killing it, the reapers and end their solution, effectively making it the worst outcome from the Reapers' perspective. The only option that does no compromise with the Reapers.

Kid: Everything, huh? ...So, um, you know everyone you know and love will die right?

Shepard: Yeah, so? And I'm not indctrinated if that's what you're thinking. I just sudden got really really really stupid.

Harbinger: *grin* (Guess I don't have to keep up the charade anymore). SO BE IT!!!

No, that can't be what they intended.... no way. Dragon Age 2 isn't even that bad.

[The Twilight God]

megamacka wrote...

The geth and EDI are software, software can be rewritten and the hardware platforms can be rebuilt. Shepard takes a breath in the end credits yet he rely on synthetics. The Quarians seem to be fine, okay they probably have a backup plan should the suits fail but still. Nothing seems to have happened. The fleet seems to be fine except for the '' fast travel '' ( can't remember the name ) which is probably REAPER TECH?

It was said that the '' catalyst '' was theoretically supposed to '' focus '' the power beam onto the reaper. My guess is that it focused on REAPER TECH. This would also explain why the geth are targeted but not quarians as they have reaper tech in them after legions sacrifice. The relays are reaper tech, starships fast travel is reaper tech I think that they found on Mars for example not sure though. Quarians suits are NOT reaper tech, shepards synthetics? Probably not, as the illusive man wanted him '' as he were '' and reaper tech r probably not very '' indoctrination risk free ''.

The geth are not "reaper tech". Neither is eezo and alternating current (which is all mass effect fields are). The only things that are "reaper tech" are things that indoctrinate and function as an extension of their will. 

As far as "Reaper code" is concerned, it's a terminology which is commonly misunderstood. The Geth simply have a code that the Reapers designed to improve their efficiency, but it doesn't make them reaper-like or make them "reaper tech". For instance, say a reaper was an architech and built a house. The house wouldn't blow up just because a reaper designed it. The house isn't "reaper tech". The Geth remain programs distinguished from the reapers. Legion doesn't say it was the code that allowed them to be controlled. The code was simply something that imporvement their efficiency. It had nothing to do with the actual control. Otherwise Legion would have turned on Shepard.

Any machinery is synthetic. There is no difference between a mech, an alliance cruiser or a geth destroyer platform. The fact that all synthetics, which would include all those ships cruising past that broken relay, were not destroyed or disabled indicates that the Kid may have been fibbing alittle. It's not that far fetched actually. It doesn't want you to choose Destroy. Tali even says that Geth were loading into Quarian suits cybernetics to help them develop their immune system faster. They are still the same software-only lifeforms they have always been. Just like the epilogues, Bioware expected the player to make quick emotionally charged assumptions and ignore the plain facts. They needed to tempt players away from Destroy and it would be harder to do so if only EDI, a single individual, was the only thing at stake. Going back to the epilogue I think a mention of the geth sacrifice would be warranted. Hackett says nothing about any such loss.

megamacka wrote...

Maybe the crucible was indeed the Leviathans doing and it was supposed to destroy the reapers all along. Hence why it would focus on REAPER TECH and reaper tech ONLY. But the Leviathans failed and were nearly wiped out before they could finish but they managed to salvage some of the crucible plans.

Technically, the relays aren't "reaper tech" either. They are just alot of eezo, electricty, entagled particles and dark matter generators. This is why I see the relays blowing as something the Leviathans tossed in to put the races at a logistical disadvantage. Maybe they'll come in to "help" us by providing an alternative. Just... come alittle closer and we'll tell you how to make hyper drives.

[Fixers0]

 Just a quick question:

If the Starbrat doesn't wan't destroy to be chosen then why doesn't he simply refuse to raise the platform to the destroy tube? Or better: why have that option at all? (as in Low EMS, Collector base Saved).

Modifié par Fixers0, 05 septembre 2012 - 07:54 .

[The Twilight God]

Fixers0 wrote...

Just a quick question:

If the Starbrat doesn't wan't destroy to be chosen then why doesn't he simply refuse to raise the platform to the destroy tube? Or better: why have that option at all? (as in Low EMS, Collector base Saved).

Because Shepard has a gun and doesn't have to walk over there. The cinematic choices of the developers are meaningless in the context of the plot. Seems like a big dialog wheel to me.

The Twilight God wrote...

Effective Military Strength (EMS) is the rating that dictates the military strength of your combined fleet. The lower the number, the less effective your forces are against the Reapers. A low EMS results in several reaper destroyers breaking through the Shield Fleet assigned to escort the Crucible. The outcome is that the Crucible is damaged upon arrival. If the Collector Base is destroyed the Reaper Core survives the blast. This Core was used by Cerberus to power their research center on Horizon. It is acquired as a war asset once Sanctuary is shut down and utilized in the construction of the Crucible; presumably as an additional power source.

The Crucible is too damaged to power Synthesis, which is essentially forming synthetic molecules from pure energy. That's the power of a nuclear detonation in each atom. This is why Synthesis requires a high EMS. The Crucible is to damaged to be adapted for Control. Essentially the Crucible isn't fit to interface with an outside device This would require the Reaper Brain to compensate. The Crucible's main systems are shot and its processing capabilities in ruin. But that Reaper Core gives it enough juice to fire, albeit wildly and erratically. As Destroy is the actual function of the Crucible itself, unlike Control, it can do this in and of itself. Albeit In an unpredictable manner not foreseen or intended by its designers.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 05 septembre 2012 - 08:29 .

[Fixers0]

The Twilight God wrote...


Because Shepard has a gun and doesn't have to walk over there. The cinematic choices of the developers are meaningless in the context of the plot.

Then why can't i choose destroy if i saved the base. (With low EMS)

Modifié par Fixers0, 05 septembre 2012 - 08:11 .

[megamacka]

Technically, the relays aren't "reaper tech" either. They are just alot of eezo, electricty, entagled particles and dark matter generators. This is why I see the relays blowing as something the Leviathans tossed in to put the races at a logistical disadvantage. Maybe they'll come in to "help" us by providing an alternative. Just... come alittle closer and we'll tell you how to make hyper drives.

Well my point was kinda like. The starbrat over exaggerated the damage that the destroy option would cause. I don't see why some things are destroyed and some things are not. Tbh the Geth are a sacrifice that I am pretty much okay with. Bioware obviously had this hard on about EDI and synthetics, and yeah.... I cried manly tears when Legion sacrificed himself, but he was nonetheless a MACHINE. A machine that can be reprogrammed as they / we see fit and that '' feel '' through programming of their own choosing ( how EDI reprogrames herself for example )is not '' alive '' per se according to me. I cared about EDI and the Geth but not more than I cared about everyone else.

I think a lot of people choose Synthesis cuz they wanted the Geth and EDI to survive.
Good job, you '' killed '' everyone by making everyone dance the same robo dance ( if you even believe that it happened as in the epilogue ).

   But the reapers obviously had something that allowed the crucible to focus on them and with '' reaper tech '' I kinda meant like reaper influenced technology. It would only make sense that it targeted ALL reaper influenced technology, '' leave no survivors ''. And that might have included the reaper codes that the Geth received.

Modifié par megamacka, 05 septembre 2012 - 09:28 .

[Lunch Box1912]

Imagine if they sold three different Mass Effect 4's based off the decisions in ME3, they could even do four games? Start from scratch with the next cycle for the refuses, they could just keep expanding on the alternate universes. That would be a massive undertaking though. Makes you wonder if there will be a Mass Effect 4 post ME3 timeline. I mean how would Bioware deal with the alternative endings?

[The Twilight God]

Fixers0 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...


Because Shepard has a gun and doesn't have to walk over there. The cinematic choices of the developers are meaningless in the context of the plot.

Then why can't i choose destroy if i saved the base. (With low EMS)

The Reaper parts are sturdier and therefore survive the Reaper attacks.

If you have the Brain the computational capabilies remain intact, but the Crucible has no power to activate its systems and fire. No core, no power. No power, no destroy. The standard power supply, which is fragile compared to the reaper core, is destroyed by the Reapers. The Core was sturdy enough to survive the collector base destruction and survives the reaper assault. Its destruction in the alternate ending indicates it uses organic parts. Similar to whatever powers to collector weapons.

If you have the Core, the power system that activates the Crucible's systems remain intact, but the processors are damaged preventing the Crucible from making the necessary computations required to discriminate its targets. So the Crucible simply releases its energy in the most basic form possible. Hence it kills everything in its path. 

[The Twilight God]

megamacka wrote...

Well my point was kinda like. The starbrat over exaggerated the damage that the destroy option would cause. I don't see why some things are destroyed and some things are not. Tbh the Geth are a sacrifice that I am pretty much okay with. Bioware obviously had this hard on about EDI and synthetics, and yeah.... I cried manly tears when Legion sacrificed himself, but he was nonetheless a MACHINE. A machine that can be reprogrammed as they / we see fit and that '' feel '' through programming of their own choosing ( how EDI reprogrames herself for example )is not '' alive '' per se according to me. I cared about EDI and the Geth but not more than I cared about everyone else.

Sure you could reconstitute a geth and name it Legion, but it won't be the same as the geth whose name was Legion. Similarly, I a person can have their memory wiped. The person that remains will not be the person that existed prior to the amnesia. The race could continue, just like it may be possible to grow more humans for genetic material, but the culture and personalities that took centuries to develope are gone. It just isn't the same.

megamacka wrote...

I think a lot of people choose Synthesis cuz they wanted the Geth and EDI to survive.
Good job, you '' killed '' everyone by making everyone dance the same robo dance ( if you even believe that it happened as in the epilogue ).

Nothing happened in the epilogues. Which is why it isn't technically an epilogue as you're never actual told how things turn out. You just have a narrator stating what they would like to happen, what they think will happen or what they plan to make happen. But it is never stated what actually happens.

megamacka wrote...

 But the reapers obviously had something that allowed the crucible to focus on them and with '' reaper tech '' I kinda meant like reaper influenced technology. It would only make sense that it targeted ALL reaper influenced technology, '' leave no survivors ''. And that might have included the reaper codes that the Geth received.

What makes a brick house I build distinguishable from a brick house house a reaper builds? There is no way to target things that aren't distinctively reaperish. That is, something that has "reaper signatures". The Crucible used in the game was designed prior to the advent of the Geth. Even if the protheans reprogrammed it to kill synthetics and made a list of everything the Reapers had made, that narrow definition of synthetic and that list of reaper inventions wouldn't include the Geth. 
 

[The Twilight God]

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

Imagine if they sold three different Mass Effect 4's based off the decisions in ME3, they could even do four games? Start from scratch with the next cycle for the refuses, they could just keep expanding on the alternate universes. That would be a massive undertaking though. Makes you wonder if there will be a Mass Effect 4 post ME3 timeline. I mean how would Bioware deal with the alternative endings?

Bioware will announce the Destroy is the cannon ending and the others are indoctrinated endings and therefore will not be used to continue the franchise. Or simply make Destroy the ending they will contiue from and don't bother to address indoctrination. But I think if they have any respect for their work and self respect as writers they will admit that synthesis, control and refuse are indoctrinated endings (and maybe even add new versions of destroy). The Geth/Quarians peace will be the default.

Otherwise... 

Obviously, there will be no importing. I think that is a given.

Bioware has stated that synthesis will occur regardless of which ending is chosen. Furthermore, the Stargazer states that the details concerning the exploits of The Shepard have been lost over time. This, in essense, questions even if the ending you picked is what actually occured becasue the exact details have been lost over time. The ending the player chooses is just the Stagazer's telling of the story.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where this is going.

The next game in the franchise will take place in the distant future.

In this distant future synthesis will be a reality achieved on our own terms, albeit no glowing eyes and circuit skin. I believe that was included to make the outcome visually apparent. When or how we achieved it will be vague however. This allows for ending ambiguity. This way the player can think maybe it was from synthesis ending; maybe it occured after Destroy or Control.

In this distant future the Reapers will be things of legend. They either were dismantled, left for a new galaxy, were destroyed or whatever. Like the archangel Samael they will be villains in some legends and redeemed heroes in others. No one telling of the story will be given legitimacy over another. This allows for ending ambiguity.

The Geth will still be around. There is no concrete evidence that the Geth are wiped out in Destory seeing as they are not tradtional AI's. Regardless of rather you side with geth or quarians, there were survivors and those survivor went on to repopulate the race. Peace was achieved at some unspecified time.

The Krogan genophage will be cured or overcome naturally at some point in the past. They may even have the Rachni sharing Tuchanka with the Krogan.

The Shepard's sex will be unknown.

They could also have an event in game similar to Miranda's questioning of Shepard on the shuttle to the Cerberus base in the beginning of ME2. Where a history discusson is taking place and the player states what they have been taught. This would make minor changes to the codex and a few dialogue changes that make no real difference.

[Lunch Box1912]

Now that you mention the shuttle to the Cerberus base at the beginning of ME2….. I could see a similar setup to make your choices update to your codex and some dialogue sequences kick in. They did make Udina councilor even if you chose Anderson going into ME3. I would be interested to see if the new main character would be human based, Alien or AI.

[Fixers0]

The Twilight God wrote...

The Reaper parts are sturdier and therefore survive the Reaper attacks.

If you have the Brain the computational capabilies remain intact, but the Crucible has no power to activate its systems and fire. No core, no power. No power, no destroy. The standard power supply, which is fragile compared to the reaper core, is destroyed by the Reapers. The Core was sturdy enough to survive the collector base destruction and survives the reaper assault. Its destruction in the alternate ending indicates it uses organic parts. Similar to whatever powers to collector weapons.

If you have the Core, the power system that activates the Crucible's systems remain intact, but the processors are damaged preventing the Crucible from making the necessary computations required to discriminate its targets. So the Crucible simply releases its energy in the most basic form possible. Hence it kills everything in its path. 

Headcannon,  you can't even shoot tube unless you're standing right in front of it, as you can only hit on specific part, so the kid might just presented him with the other two options and refuse to raise the platform to the tube.

Just a few simple questions of logic:
-Why is there even a shootable tube?
-Why is there even a platform leading  to the destroy tube?
-Why does that option exists at all (on the citadel)?
-Why am i shooting this tube X3?


Now Let me explain what's happening here:

You've come up with a theory that is soley based on your subjective interpertation of certain scenes with established contradictory content, then when faced with simple questions of logic or reason you can't anwser them without going into more  speculation, which are obivously just convienant make-ups as they aren't backed up any were in the narative, I'm not actually blaming you at this point, but you attempt to anwser logical questions in a narative that doesn't have one, especially given the rather questionable content of previous scenes, have we gotten a ''you're indoctrinated message'' at the end of all endings but destroy? no we haven't, because it's not there ,These endings are just poorly written and we just have to deal with it.

Modifié par Fixers0, 06 septembre 2012 - 05:27 .