1238 réponses à ce sujet

[gorezeelar]

Cheviot wrote...

gorezeelar wrote...

I would say that the Crucible was designed merely as a tuner and an amplifier, while the Citadel (Catalyst) is the gateway leading to that dark space where the Reaper exist.

I think that the Crucible is basically a dark energy reactor, and the Catalyst is the means to focus it, like using a magnifying glass allows you to focus the sun's energy into an ant death ray.

I would say vice versa. The catalyst (the thing in the very middle of any chemical equation to make thing go faster) is the gateway between the Crucible and the dark space where the Reapers come from. 

If you would just stick the Crucible out into the dark space, I think it will eventually gather enough dark energy to do its job.

But this raise another question. Are there more Reapers? Seems like the only way for them to get into the Milky Way is through some kind of gateway, like how Harbinger (or was it Sovereign) used the Citadel. Why can't they just wiggle in? Doesn't matter exist in "dark space"?

[Cheviot]

The Twilight God wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

Oh, yeah,  "they didn't want people to just reload and pick destroy".  That makes literally no sense.  So they spent months writing, designing, storyboarding, animating and coding an ending that they wanted people to never pick?  What? 

No, they wanted you to pick Control, Synthesis or Destroy. That's why they made Synthesis and Control look so much better than Destroy. All 3 are valid endings. No one is more valid than the others.

So let me get this right: your justification for ignoring the fact that the game tells you that you defeated the Reapers was that Bioware didn't want people to go back and choose Destroy, yet now you're saying they didn't care?

The Twilight God wrote...

"The Shepard" is mentioned in Refusal and Destroy. And in both Stargazer scenes it is presumably far into the distant future. There is no proof that the male Stargazer is a member of any known species in Destroy, Control or Synthesis. None of the male dialog explicitly states "The Shepard" was victorious. The male stargazer could just as easily be used in the Refusal ending. It would confuse people, but would not outright contradict anything. Who knows what transpired in the width of all those years. All we'd know is that organics in the disstant future are doing alrgith and know about the Reapers.

The story ends after Shepard's defeat of the Reapers.  The Stargazer is telling the story of "The Shepard," so he is telling the story of the defeat of the Reapers too.

Modifié par Cheviot, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:15 .

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

The Twilight God wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

If the Catalyst is truly trying to deceive Shepard, then why should we believe that any of the options work? If the Catalyst's ultimate desire is Synthesis and will do everything in its power to achieve it, then why explain the other options?

Read my posts again. I've covered all of this. The Destroy thesis adresses this best, I believe.

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Secondly, you assume that the Reapers are inherently evil, even though there's no indication that they even operate on the same set of morals. You're trying to apply organic concepts to a hyper-advanced mind.

There morals are irrelevent to me just as I am irrelevent to them. I don't have to assume anything. They have shown, through their actions, what they are throughout the entire series. A ten minute chat isn't going to change that.

Even from a moral relativistic perspective they are in opposition to my likes and dislikes. That is enough for me to personally consider them "evil".

Shepard has no idea what the Crucible is capable of or how it even works. The Catalyst could easily tell our dying hero that Synthesis is the only option that can be performed while completely ignoring the other two. If he can lie, he's doing a pretty bad job of it.

[gorezeelar]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

If the Catalyst is truly trying to deceive Shepard, then why should we believe that any of the options work? If the Catalyst's ultimate desire is Synthesis and will do everything in its power to achieve it, then why explain the other options?

Read my posts again. I've covered all of this. The Destroy thesis adresses this best, I believe.

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Secondly, you assume that the Reapers are inherently evil, even though there's no indication that they even operate on the same set of morals. You're trying to apply organic concepts to a hyper-advanced mind.

There morals are irrelevent to me just as I am irrelevent to them. I don't have to assume anything. They have shown, through their actions, what they are throughout the entire series. A ten minute chat isn't going to change that.

Even from a moral relativistic perspective they are in opposition to my likes and dislikes. That is enough for me to personally consider them "evil".

Shepard has no idea what the Crucible is capable of or how it even works. The Catalyst could easily tell our dying hero that Synthesis is the only option that can be performed while completely ignoring the other two. If he can lie, he's doing a pretty bad job of it.

Shepard: "Hey, soooo...what is that red glowing double tube on the right? And WHAT are those blue glowing tesla ball-stick looking thing on my left?

Catalyst: "Umm... Don't worry about it."

[Wayning_Star]

The Twilight God wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

If the Catalyst is truly trying to deceive Shepard, then why should we believe that any of the options work? If the Catalyst's ultimate desire is Synthesis and will do everything in its power to achieve it, then why explain the other options?

Read my posts again. I've covered all of this. The Destroy thesis adresses this best, I believe.

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Secondly, you assume that the Reapers are inherently evil, even though there's no indication that they even operate on the same set of morals. You're trying to apply organic concepts to a hyper-advanced mind.

There morals are irrelevent to me just as I am irrelevent to them. I don't have to assume anything. They have shown, through their actions, what they are throughout the entire series. A ten minute chat isn't going to change that.

Even from a moral relativistic perspective they are in opposition to my likes and dislikes. That is enough for me to personally consider them "evil".

their actions may be construed as evil, but they are not, as simple machines, they lack the sapience to construct a right from wrong programming protocol. If they did, they'd give up on the cycle independently, without extra user interfacing... Even lowly geth Legion could tell right from wrong when he defende that geth in the fields from it's quarian master creator... Cannot fit that into the IT very easily..or at all.

[The Twilight God]

D24O wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Playing devil's advocate here.

The ending sequence with the Catalyst doesn't have to be a hallucination for it to be an indoctrination attempt.

You can't "break" an indoctrination attempt. You can only resist. Shepard choosing destroy could be his moment of resistance. As a result, the Crucible disabled the Reapers and their control over Shepard.

Now that's a way to look at it, and I'm not an ITer.

That's what I wrote.

At no point did I ever say the last 30 minutes was a hallucination. Not once. I said the Star Child may have been a hallucination in the same way Shepard spoke with Harbinger at the end of Arrival. A hallucination in that nobody else would see it, but it's still real. The conversation between Shepard and the Reapers is actually taking place.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

gorezeelar wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

If the Catalyst is truly trying to deceive Shepard, then why should we believe that any of the options work? If the Catalyst's ultimate desire is Synthesis and will do everything in its power to achieve it, then why explain the other options?

Read my posts again. I've covered all of this. The Destroy thesis adresses this best, I believe.

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Secondly, you assume that the Reapers are inherently evil, even though there's no indication that they even operate on the same set of morals. You're trying to apply organic concepts to a hyper-advanced mind.

There morals are irrelevent to me just as I am irrelevent to them. I don't have to assume anything. They have shown, through their actions, what they are throughout the entire series. A ten minute chat isn't going to change that.

Even from a moral relativistic perspective they are in opposition to my likes and dislikes. That is enough for me to personally consider them "evil".

Shepard has no idea what the Crucible is capable of or how it even works. The Catalyst could easily tell our dying hero that Synthesis is the only option that can be performed while completely ignoring the other two. If he can lie, he's doing a pretty bad job of it.

Shepard: "Hey, soooo...what is that red glowing double tube on the right? And WHAT are those blue glowing tesla ball-stick looking thing on my left?

Catalyst: "Umm... Don't worry about it."

"Oh, those? They're essential to the interaction between the Crucible and Citadel. Tampering with them would be Catastrophic."

[gorezeelar]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

gorezeelar wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

If the Catalyst is truly trying to deceive Shepard, then why should we believe that any of the options work? If the Catalyst's ultimate desire is Synthesis and will do everything in its power to achieve it, then why explain the other options?

Read my posts again. I've covered all of this. The Destroy thesis adresses this best, I believe.

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Secondly, you assume that the Reapers are inherently evil, even though there's no indication that they even operate on the same set of morals. You're trying to apply organic concepts to a hyper-advanced mind.

There morals are irrelevent to me just as I am irrelevent to them. I don't have to assume anything. They have shown, through their actions, what they are throughout the entire series. A ten minute chat isn't going to change that.

Even from a moral relativistic perspective they are in opposition to my likes and dislikes. That is enough for me to personally consider them "evil".

Shepard has no idea what the Crucible is capable of or how it even works. The Catalyst could easily tell our dying hero that Synthesis is the only option that can be performed while completely ignoring the other two. If he can lie, he's doing a pretty bad job of it.

Shepard: "Hey, soooo...what is that red glowing double tube on the right? And WHAT are those blue glowing tesla ball-stick looking thing on my left?

Catalyst: "Umm... Don't worry about it."

"Oh, those? They're essential to the interaction between the Crucible and Citadel. Tampering with them would be Catastrophic."

"Not to mention......Destructive!"

[Wayning_Star]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

gorezeelar wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

If the Catalyst is truly trying to deceive Shepard, then why should we believe that any of the options work? If the Catalyst's ultimate desire is Synthesis and will do everything in its power to achieve it, then why explain the other options?

Read my posts again. I've covered all of this. The Destroy thesis adresses this best, I believe.

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Secondly, you assume that the Reapers are inherently evil, even though there's no indication that they even operate on the same set of morals. You're trying to apply organic concepts to a hyper-advanced mind.

There morals are irrelevent to me just as I am irrelevent to them. I don't have to assume anything. They have shown, through their actions, what they are throughout the entire series. A ten minute chat isn't going to change that.

Even from a moral relativistic perspective they are in opposition to my likes and dislikes. That is enough for me to personally consider them "evil".

Shepard has no idea what the Crucible is capable of or how it even works. The Catalyst could easily tell our dying hero that Synthesis is the only option that can be performed while completely ignoring the other two. If he can lie, he's doing a pretty bad job of it.

Shepard: "Hey, soooo...what is that red glowing double tube on the right? And WHAT are those blue glowing tesla ball-stick looking thing on my left?

Catalyst: "Umm... Don't worry about it."

"Oh, those? They're essential to the interaction between the Crucible and Citadel. Tampering with them would be Catastrophic."

aw, come'on you guys, don't choke up on us now..lol

[Cheviot]

The Twilight God wrote...
At no point did I ever say the last 30 minutes was a hallucination. Not once. I said the Star Child may have been a hallucination in the same way Shepard spoke with Harbinger at the end of Arrival. A hallucination in that nobody else would see it, but it's still real. The conversation between Shepard and the Reapers is actually taking place.

Harbringer's appearance doesn't seem to be a halluncination, it looks a lot like the appearance of Soverign at the beacon on Virmire.  Maybe Object Rho is projecting it?

Modifié par Cheviot, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:26 .

[Wayning_Star]

Really though, how would/could a human/organic even talk to a charactor like a catalyst program or even a bulky ultra powerful ship sized reaper? Use their i phone?

[The Twilight God]

Cheviot wrote...

You missed the bit where he looked down at his blood-drenched arm, couldn't get back to his feet, lost consciousness and was in obvious pain.

And then woke up and stood around chatting it up with the Star Child for 10 minutes with no problem, even starts running in some endings and has enough juice to survive an explosion (at least for awhile).

Cheviot wrote...

There's no reason to do that.  Even if he regained consciousness, all the Catalyst has to do is shut down that console and Shepard would be powerless.  Where could he go?  What could he do?

He's shoots the CSD. The Catalyst can't him from doing that. It only controls the stuff hardwired into the Citadel (control and synthesis). The Reapers could take their chances and hope he never bothers to shoot everything up or take precautions dealing with the guy that has kicked their butts twice and has them scared ****tless now. I wouldn't underestimate Shepard. Would you?

He's like Sam and Dean Winchester. No matter the odds they keep winning.

[Cheviot]

The Twilight God wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

You missed the bit where he looked down at his blood-drenched arm, couldn't get back to his feet, lost consciousness and was in obvious pain.

And then woke up and stood around chatting it up with the Star Child for 10 minutes with no problem.

Except being doubled up in pain the whole time, yes.

The CSD.

Ah yes.  Have you got any evidence for this thing existing in the game?

[The Twilight God]

Wayning_Star wrote...

D24O wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Playing devil's advocate here.

The ending sequence with the Catalyst doesn't have to be a hallucination for it to be an indoctrination attempt.

You can't "break" an indoctrination attempt. You can only resist. Shepard choosing destroy could be his moment of resistance. As a result, the Crucible disabled the Reapers and their control over Shepard.

Now that's a way to look at it, and I'm not an ITer.

but on what do they pose that premise on? Saren shot himself, that broke indoctrination, just by Shep giving him a pep talk. The same happened with the Illusive man, if spoken to correctly,enough "command voice", blew the indoctrination right out of the equation. Shep resisted or became immune or adjusted to indoctrination to be able to communicate with  the catalyst in the end and the headish reapers in the mid game.. that theory essay lacks fortitude.

Shepard resisted if he chose Destroy.

Shepard communicated with Harbinger in the same way as he communicates with the Star Child at the end of Arrival. He wasn't fully indoctrinated then either. But he was touched by a Reaper artifact and left allive for slow indoctrination. Based on his derpish behavior with the Catalyst they were fast forwarding it a bit given the immediate threat of their destruction. 

[comrade gando]

alienatedflea wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

lets just have you fighting reapers for 99% of the trilogy then change the goal at the last 10 minutes. if control and synthesis aren't indoctrination then idk what is.

lol thats simple...they are simply endings to the game...indoctrination never was a problem that shep had to deal with...get over yourself....

like I haven't heard that before.

[The Twilight God]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Hey TWG, did it ever occur to you that the thing saying it's the Catalyst is not the Catalyst at all?

 
The actual catalyst is the Citadel. The Star Child was never the catalyst; just a poser. As I mentioned in my posts.
 

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Shepard is the real Catalyst.

Figuratively speaking. Yes.

[Wayning_Star]

The Twilight God wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

You missed the bit where he looked down at his blood-drenched arm, couldn't get back to his feet, lost consciousness and was in obvious pain.

And then woke up and stood around chatting it up with the Star Child for 10 minutes with no problem, even starts running in some endings and has enough juice to survive an explosion (at least for awhile).

Cheviot wrote...

There's no reason to do that.  Even if he regained consciousness, all the Catalyst has to do is shut down that console and Shepard would be powerless.  Where could he go?  What could he do?

He's shoots the CSD. The Catalyst can't him from doing that. It only controls the stuff hardwired into the Citadel (control and synthesis). The Reapers could take their chances and hope he never bothers to shoot everything up or take precautions dealing with the guy that has kicked their butts twice and has them scared ****tless now. I wouldn't underestimate Shepard. Would you?

He's like Sam and Dean Winchester. No matter the odds they keep winning.

that is interpretation, not reality as based in the game at all. Only hard wired? control and synthesis? Control and sythesis are both energy combinations, shooting/destroy is the only thing done with hard wires/conduits. The others you convert Poor old shep with different energy types. Destroy, you simple short out the conduit and the the thing over loads the citadel and sets off the crucible recklessly. No need to 'estimate' Shepard, they've already contacted him on the ground, or he wouldn't even be there.

[The Twilight God]

gorezeelar wrote...

OK, so what was YOUR ending, OP? Did everyone in the galaxy die in a fire? How can you explain the refuse ending? Did Shepard just say "I give up"?

The Twilight God wrote...

Refusal
Shepard says, "No, I'm going to end this war on my terms."
The Catalyst replies, "Then you will die knowing you have failed to save everything you have fought for."
Shepard retorts, "I fight for freedom. Mine and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I die knowing I did everything I could to stop you."

Everything except actually stopping the Reapers, when the means to do so is right in front of you. The means to choose your own fate was right there. Instead, Shepard let the Reapers choose his and every organics' fate. Shepard is definitely indoctrinated here. No questions about it.

[Wayning_Star]

The Twilight God wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Hey TWG, did it ever occur to you that the thing saying it's the Catalyst is not the Catalyst at all?

 
The actual catalyst is the Citadel. The Star Child was never the catalyst; just a poser. As I mentioned in my posts.
 

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Shepard is the real Catalyst.

Figuratively speaking. Yes.

wasting all the resources of an entire trilogy just to indoctrinate to control a population already beaten down by the impressive and violent assult from the reaper horde? They basically wasted their computer time, just to over power Shep to make it easier to harvest planet earth? Mean while, the rest of the MEU is being attacked by ground forces and such to carry out the indoctrination of Shep so they can waste more resources on the rest of the galaxy not needed because Shepard is the catalyst? Man those reapers programming is definitively messed up.. and the story of IT has hit critical convolution...

[Wayning_Star]

anyone but me notice none of my posts are responded to..lol I must be onto something..

[The Twilight God]

Cheviot wrote...

Or the designers of the Crucible designed it to interact with the Catalyst.

No, Control is a console built into the Citadel for the supposed purpose of rewriting the Star Child. Nobody knew about the Star child so the idea that it was designed with the Star Child in mind is absurd. I already went over this in my posts.

Cheviot wrote...

Control and Destroy are both functions of the Catalyst (their method of activation is on the Catalyst side), but the Synthesis function is less clear-cut: it's a beam cascading from the Crucible, but going through the top of the Citadel. 

Destory is suposed to trigger automatically. The Star Child placed a suppression device that prevents it from arming itself. Again this has been covered already.

Start from the top: http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419372

I will no longer be addressing comments from people who don't even bother to read the subject matter.

[Wayning_Star]

bah, cop out ..typical evasion tactic. been there done that. old bud

[gorezeelar]

The Twilight God wrote...

gorezeelar wrote...

OK, so what was YOUR ending, OP? Did everyone in the galaxy die in a fire? How can you explain the refuse ending? Did Shepard just say "I give up"?

The Twilight God wrote...

Refusal
Shepard says, "No, I'm going to end this war on my terms."
The Catalyst replies, "Then you will die knowing you have failed to save everything you have fought for."
Shepard retorts, "I fight for freedom. Mine and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I die knowing I did everything I could to stop you."

Everything except actually stopping the Reapers, when the means to do so is right in front of you. The means to choose your own fate was right there. Instead, Shepard let the Reapers choose his and every organics' fate. Shepard is definitely indoctrinated here. No questions about it.

See? You indoctrinated theoriest always lead the series down to a gloom and doom path. So you're saying that the cycle goes on. That's is a big middle finger to Shepard and everyone who died trying to stop that from happen from ME1 up til now. Now that has to be the worse ending in the history of video game. 

So no, I am NOT indoctrinated. I know you probably say that truth hurts. Indulge me for a second... Have you ever considered that you are, in fact, actually not right?

[The Twilight God]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

You make good points. I don't agree with you, but you make good points.

Thank you. That's a refreshing perspective.

I don't know whay people feel that just because I post something they have to believe in it and therfore fight me tooth and nail to make it not so. I don't require anyone to agree with anything I've posted.

Ithurael wrote...

I must, however, disagree on the priciple that IT (as great and clever as it was) simply cannot happen and would be implausible given the EC and the amount of work and effort that went into the EC.

See, you immediately state that somehow the endings are worthless if it isn't a traditional happy ending. And that Bioware would have wasted their time if Shepard lost out to indoctrination. This is simply not true.

And this is why the indoctrinated endings must never blatantly be stated as such. Because if Bioware does that they break the indoctrination. The moment you say it's an indoctrinated ending people want to fight it and if they lose the inner battle Destroy becomes the only ticket in town. People won't accept Shepard failing as a a true ending. So Bioware cannot and will not come and say Control and Synthesis didn't work out like shep would have wanted because people would treat them like troll endings even though they are just as valid and believeable outcomes as Destroy. 

Only if Bioware admitted that Control and synthesis were indoctrinated endings would they become "worthless". As long as players believe things turned out well and are satisfied then the indoctrinated endings are fine. Even if you don't realize you're indoctrinated.

[Wayning_Star]

gorezeelar wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

gorezeelar wrote...

OK, so what was YOUR ending, OP? Did everyone in the galaxy die in a fire? How can you explain the refuse ending? Did Shepard just say "I give up"?

The Twilight God wrote...

Refusal
Shepard says, "No, I'm going to end this war on my terms."
The Catalyst replies, "Then you will die knowing you have failed to save everything you have fought for."
Shepard retorts, "I fight for freedom. Mine and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I die knowing I did everything I could to stop you."

Everything except actually stopping the Reapers, when the means to do so is right in front of you. The means to choose your own fate was right there. Instead, Shepard let the Reapers choose his and every organics' fate. Shepard is definitely indoctrinated here. No questions about it.

See? You indoctrinated theoriest always lead the series down to a gloom and doom path. So you're saying that the cycle goes on. That's is a big middle finger to Shepard and everyone who died trying to stop that from happen from ME1 up til now. Now that has to be the worse ending in the history of video game. 

So no, I am NOT indoctrinated. I know you probably say that truth hurts. Indulge me for a second... Have you ever considered that you are, in fact, actually not right?

I think I'm officially over the IT gig, it's totally open ended, that is the 'its no use' the game is fixed thing they seem to relish. IT boils down to some one trying to make some sort of coup name for themselves by undoing anything/other than failure of the ME trilogy? I could be wrong about it, but is sure seems that way.. anyway, i'm taking my bat a ball and going home on the IT stuff. Too cut'n dried for my taste..as is over fore it started..