1238 réponses à ce sujet

[Ranger Jack Walker]

The Twilight God wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Hey, you just ignored the point that Reapers don't need to force the final indoctrination for it to be succesful. So what I'm saying about you ignoring stuff is not a blatant lie. Not only is it true, but you've convinced yourself that it isn't. Kind of like, oh I don't know, indoctrinated slaves?

Forcing Indoctrination quickly at the last minute would not instantly melt Shepard's brain but it would ruin the main purpose of slow indoctrination: To create deep cover agents who don't cause suspicion until it's too late.

Yes, it is a blatant lie as I addressed your statements with a counter question.

I'm not sure what you mean by "force indoctrination". There is a more rapid indoctrination, but forced? By definition, you can't force it. Indoctrination implies you make the choice. The reaper just providea the influence to get you to the point where your choices reflect its desires. So your statement is completely moot. If they could force it there would be no way to come to a favorable outcome. That would be the Leviathan form of control.

Exactly my point. Nothin in the game lore says the Reapers need to anything special at the last minute for indoctrination to be successful. So if the Reapers were to actively try to indoctrinate Shepard at the last minute, it would the rapid indcotrination. THis would only degrade Shepard's mind in matter of days completely ruining the supposed indoctrination that's been going on in all the instances that Shepard has been in contact with Reaper tech.

[Restrider]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Hey, you just ignored the point that Reapers don't need to force the final indoctrination for it to be succesful. So what I'm saying about you ignoring stuff is not a blatant lie. Not only is it true, but you've convinced yourself that it isn't. Kind of like, oh I don't know, indoctrinated slaves?

Forcing Indoctrination quickly at the last minute would not instantly melt Shepard's brain but it would ruin the main purpose of slow indoctrination: To create deep cover agents who don't cause suspicion until it's too late.

Yes, it is a blatant lie as I addressed your statements with a counter question.

I'm not sure what you mean by "force indoctrination". There is a more rapid indoctrination, but forced? By definition, you can't force it. Indoctrination implies you make the choice. The reaper just providea the influence to get you to the point where your choices reflect its desires. So your statement is completely moot. If they could force it there would be no way to come to a favorable outcome. That would be the Leviathan form of control.

Exactly my point. Nothin in the game lore says the Reapers need to anything special at the last minute for indoctrination to be successful. So if the Reapers were to actively try to indoctrinate Shepard at the last minute, it would the rapid indcotrination. THis would only degrade Shepard's mind in matter of days completely ruining the supposed indoctrination that's been going on in all the instances that Shepard has been in contact with Reaper tech.

The reapers apply rapid indoctrination at the end, because the boundary conditions have been altered. An undercover agent (indoctrinated Shepard) at the key location of the organic's resistance would've been dandy, but now the organics managed to nearly breach the defenses and reach the Citadel with the Crucible. Then the reapers speed up the indoctrination process to make sure that Shepard is not able to fulfill his tasks. The reapers rather try to survive than to get intact indoctrinated Shepard.

On another note: Keep up the good work TTG. This is the best and most fleshed out analysis on the endings so far.
Edit : Typos.

Modifié par Restrider, 11 septembre 2012 - 09:34 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Yeah, that doesn't work. If they are just trying to ensure thier survival at the last minute, why not just kill Shepard? Sure they would have preferred a fully indoctrinated Shepard but if it's do or die, why not just kill Shepard? Why leave open the possibility of their rapid indoctrination failing resulting in their destruction.

[megamacka]

Shepard: "So, The Illusive Man was right after all."

Intelligence: "Yes, but he could never have taken control, because we already controlled him."

As an indoctrinated puppet of the Catalyst, Illusive Man's goal with his mind controlling ability is to control Shepard's mind, force him/her to believe in Control and not destroy the Catalyst's work in manifesting the Synthesis solution.

Illusive Man: "I underestimated you, Shepard. I warned you, control is the means to survival, control of the Reapers, and of you, if necessary."

Shepard (renegade dialogue): "Why waste your time with us when you can control the Reapers?"

Illusive Man: "Because... I need you to believe."

Shepard (paragon dialogue): "Controlling me is a lot different than controlling a Reaper."

Illusive Man: "Have a little faith..."

Interesting observation.
Especially the Renegade dialogue ( I am a paragon player with a bit renegade ), I had never seen that before. Why else would he '' Need shepard to believe ''.

[megamacka]

Yeah, that doesn't work. If they are just trying to ensure thier survival at the last minute, why not just kill Shepard? Sure they would have preferred a fully indoctrinated Shepard but if it's do or die, why not just kill Shepard? Why leave open the possibility of their rapid indoctrination failing resulting in their destruction.

Because of the .... Storytelling. You have already mentioned this before '' why not just kill shepard ''. Why didn't they just have Frodo in LoTR fly in over mordor on one of those eagles and drop the ring? Why didn't the Emperor just shut his mouth and let Luke kill Vader in Star wars? Why didn't cerberus just '' force '' a control chip into shepard during Lazarus or at the very least double check that Miranda did indeed place one? Why didn't they suicide with a shuttle to kill shepard instantly?

You can't just stupidly kill the hero like that. Also, if you have read the pre leaked ending. They say that the reason that the human species was turned into a human reaper was because '' we were ready ''. We were supposed to be THE species to stop the dark energy. Perhaps now in this ending '' we are ready '' for them to use us in their synthesis option? Synthesis is his goal, why kill off the first guy/species EVER throughout these thousands of cycles that can be used? Perhaps they are looking to use Synthesis as a mean to stop the dark energy. We don't really know, hence why we all speculate.

It's also worth to note that Harbringer and probably the rest of the reapers are incredible arrogant. They probably believed and calculated that Shepard could be fully indoctrinated or talked over in order to finalize Synthesis.
It would've been a worthy and perhaps the ONLY chance that they would ever get to reach their goal of Synthesis. The chance for them was worth it. And they were sure that they would succeed. They always had before.

  What valid reasons do you have to believe in the starbrat in those last 1½ minutes with EVERYTHING at stake?
You can say '' what reason is there to believe that he speaks the truth about destroy ? ''. This simply comes down to storytelling and a badly executed idea from Bioware. But WHY would you be double stupid and not only believe that shooting the tube does indeed trigger destroy but also that the reapers can do space magic and that everything will be happily ever after no strings attached?

Id rather be stupid ONCE and then not risk everything because a reaper tells me so. I promiz it's de truth! We can all haz Synthesis and be happy! Pinky promise!
I promiz touching those thingies and getting melt and reaperized will let u control us! Why would he even tell shepard ANY of this? Why not just tell him about Synthesis, oh jumping into this beam will overload blah blah and the reapers will be destroyed or Synthesis is THE only way and is THE solution that the crucible was made for. Don't mind those other two thingies at the sides.

  Storytelling, bad writing and a badly executed idea that was rushed in the last minute by EA and evil corporations...... 

Modifié par megamacka, 11 septembre 2012 - 12:56 .

[megamacka]

Id pay for this.

[jasonxxsatanna]

Did anyone else get the feeling that during your meeting with Miranda that she was going to tell you more, like I actually did put a control chip in you or something, and why did Dr. Chakwaswant to examine your implants, it almost felt like there was going to be something to both those encounters that may be plot driven to the story, but nothing ever came about.
I was hoping it would show maybe that the tech used to bring back Shep was obvious reaper tech, but again nothing maybe another DLC would expand on it and maybe show how TIM was able to control Anderson and Shep.

[megamacka]

jasonxxsatanna wrote...

Did anyone else get the feeling that during your meeting with Miranda that she was going to tell you more, like I actually did put a control chip in you or something, and why did Dr. Chakwaswant to examine your implants, it almost felt like there was going to be something to both those encounters that may be plot driven to the story, but nothing ever came about.
I was hoping it would show maybe that the tech used to bring back Shep was obvious reaper tech, but again nothing maybe another DLC would expand on it and maybe show how TIM was able to control Anderson and Shep.

  I didn't speak with Miranda that much . I prefer her to die in the arms of her sister at Sanctuary. I thought that was a beautiful moment. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate her. I just thought that it was perfect and very fitting.

  It kinda made sense that doc examined sheps implants. Your body doesn't ignore implants or any other modifications ( piercings r some easy examples ) so it made sense that she wanted to examine them.

Modifié par megamacka, 11 septembre 2012 - 06:52 .

[jasonxxsatanna]

But it almost seems like it was there or done for the purpose of moving the storing along but nothing, idk if its the way BW begins to lay out a story ,then it gets edited, but somethings are started and then never expanded on like ME 1s thing about Bane I could be weeping but was it ever explained what happen to him or in ME2 the cerberus data you get from the N7 mission , it was mad a if it was going to develop into a important piece of info.
I hope these and others are explained in a DLC

[jasonxxsatanna]

Sorry about the spelling errors, at work on my cell

[megamacka]

They changed story writers and the development team with every game so a lot gets edited....
Just look at wtf happened, they pretty much threw everything out the window. Just look at how much they hinted at the dark energy and now just '' dark what? ''.

[jasonxxsatanna]

I guess your right, it just frustrating when it happens your all set up to see how the story develops and bam, its not even heard of again,I don't mind if it will covered in a DLC just don't start a plot line then drop it , hell they could even cover it in other medias ,books, comics, news threads, ios game something.....

[The Twilight God]

Updated Part I: Destroy Analysis

Added more direct correlations to indoctrination
Demonstrates more clearly that Destroy is the only option that is completely counter to the desires of and does not compromise with Starbinger.
Exponded on why the Geth survive the Crucible in the Destroy ending.


Please give me your input on the changes.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 12 septembre 2012 - 07:22 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

I might as well throw this into the mix. Why do indoctrinated individuals like Amanda Kenson and Matriarch Benezia not have those "indoctrination eyes?"

[megamacka]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

I might as well throw this into the mix. Why do indoctrinated individuals like Amanda Kenson and Matriarch Benezia not have those "indoctrination eyes?"

Weren't those cybernetics? Not '' indoctrination eyes''. Saren for example were '' upgraded '' by sovereign / the geth. And the Illusive man were also using cybernetic upgrades.

  Saren and the Illusive man are the only individuals that I can think of that had these cybernetic eyes. The illusive man was physically '' touched '' by reaper tech in ME: Evolution but it was not completely succesfully. The '' huskfication '' was not complete so to speak.


   Also, I find it interesting that you can actually modify and grant your Shepard a version of the Illusive mans eyes with the Save editor. Hmm, a hint? Speculations mhmm. Bioware do like to hint.

Modifié par megamacka, 12 septembre 2012 - 12:34 .

[megamacka]

http://www.gamesthir...e-stays-silent/

Found this old page again have you guys read it? I am not sure if it was indeed fake or real. It WAS indeed posted by Weekes original and real account, some people blame hackers and some don't. I honestly do not know what to believe but it would make sense. Weekes is my favorite ME writer and his obviously very passionate about his work but from a '' keep my job '' perspective I doubt that he would have done this willingly.

  Even if this indeed was fake, and don't yell FAKE FAKE. Show me evidence and link to it or don't say it at all. Then it was still an interesting read.

Modifié par megamacka, 12 septembre 2012 - 01:01 .

[The Twilight God]

N7Gold wrote...

A thought just came to me. I don't think there's an indoctrination scheme on Shepard afoot in ME3 until the Illusive Man confrontation on the Citadel. If the Reapers managed to indoctrinate Shepard, he/she wouldn't be able to control the Reapers or manifest Synthesis, he would be like Illusive Man, believing in control but can't really do it because the Reapers and Catalyst already control him/her. The Catalyst simply tries to play mind games on Shepard by making Destroy sound bittersweet, not sugarcoating Control too much and labeling Synthesis as the ideal solution.

I believe the framework for indoctrination was established throughout the years alittle by little. I compare it to a microfracture on a windshield. That pebble that hit your car may not leave a visible crack, but there is a crack. And over time that crack will slowly grow little by little.

It is not until the conduit run that the Reaper plow begins to finally  attain Shepard. I believe Harbinger allowed Sheaprd to live so that TIM could hold him in place while the Reapers pushed their indoctrination efforts into overload. Hence the intense headaches, alien voices, etc. TIM appears to be using dominate to control Shepard. And as I mentioned in my control analysis, TIM's conversation is clearly intended to convince Shepard. However, the Reapers underestimated Shepard and TIM's biotics failed due to his own realization of his indoctrination or heightened emotional state that throws him off balance

N7Gold wrote...

A different form of indoctrination is needed to persuade Shepard. That's why Illusive Man didn't want Miranda to plant a control chip in Shepard's brain, he wanted Shepard to believe in Cerberus's cause... The Catalyst's cause without putting limitations or damaging his/her strong will or personality. If he did that, Shepard wouldn't be a valuable tool for the Reapers and Catalyst to achieve the ideal solution.

The Illusive Man being fully indoctrinated back then doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why compete with the collectors to get Shepard's body? Why ruin Harbinger's plans to make a human Reaper?

[The Twilight God]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Exactly my point. Nothin in the game lore says the Reapers need to anything special at the last minute for indoctrination to be successful. So if the Reapers were to actively try to indoctrinate Shepard at the last minute, it would the rapid indcotrination. THis would only degrade Shepard's mind in matter of days completely ruining the supposed indoctrination that's been going on in all the instances that Shepard has been in contact with Reaper tech.

This is a repetition of your last statement. A statement in which I put forth a counter statement in the form of a question. You have yet to answer that question. Since you are avoiding my counter question this discussion is going in circles. Until you answer it, we can't move forward.

So, for the third time I politely ask that you answer the following questions:

How is ensuring their continued existence wasteful? You expect the Reapers do roll over and die rather than "waste" Shepard? Wouldn't their continued existence outweight the risks of attempting to acquire an intact Shepard?

[Ranger Jack Walker]

The Twilight God wrote...

How is ensuring their continued existence wasteful? You expect the Reapers do roll over and die rather than "waste" Shepard? Wouldn't their continued existence outweight the risks of attempting to acquire an intact Shepard?

If their continued existence is more important, then why not just kill Shepard (I have already listed many ways they could do this) And don't answer with "then the game would be impossible to win". That's a weak and desperate arguement.  Why leave open the possibility of complete and utter defeat for the reapers? If their existence is of higher importance simply killing Shepard is more preffered instead of risking their 'indoctrination attempt' failing and Shepard choosing Destroy.

[Ser Issac]

megamacka wrote...

http://www.gamesthir...e-stays-silent/

Found this old page again have you guys read it? I am not sure if it was indeed fake or real. It WAS indeed posted by Weekes original and real account, some people blame hackers and some don't. I honestly do not know what to believe but it would make sense. Weekes is my favorite ME writer and his obviously very passionate about his work but from a '' keep my job '' perspective I doubt that he would have done this willingly.

  Even if this indeed was fake, and don't yell FAKE FAKE. Show me evidence and link to it or don't say it at all. Then it was still an interesting read.

Here's the breakdown of that situation:

1. The forum that those comments were taken from were made by a user account known to be that of Patrick Weekes.

2. The comments were deleted. However, there were screenshots refrencing the situation and the risk of Weekes putting his job on the line. Whether they were real, I'm not sure.

3. Chris Priestly and Weekes deny the whole thing.

4. At some point (can't remember how it came out), apparently the account may have been hacked as you said.

5. After the denials, the situation was dusted under the rug and forgotten about.

My personal belief is the Weekes wrote that post, word of it broke out amidst all of the ME3 ending controversy, and then Weekes/BioWare denied all of it to save face.

Modifié par Ser Issac, 13 septembre 2012 - 06:42 .

[The Twilight God]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Yeah, that doesn't work. If they are just trying to ensure thier survival at the last minute, why not just kill Shepard? Sure they would have preferred a fully indoctrinated Shepard but if it's do or die, why not just kill Shepard? Why leave open the possibility of their rapid indoctrination failing resulting in their destruction.

They tried, but Shepard shot TIM first. Or TIM kills himself rather than continue as a puppet.

"The beam he fires at Shepard path is to the left of Shepard (changed in the EC) as not to strike him. Yet he knocks aircraft out of the sky with pinpoint accuracy. There are two soldiers running ahead of Shepard who Harbinger blasts away in two pinpoint shots. If Reapers have eyes and it saw the Normandy despite the stealth drive it stands to reason it did not blow it up for fear of Shepard being killed by the explosion. And you think it allowed Shepard to live and carry on without any ulterior motive?"
 
It is obvious that Harbinger wanted Shepard to make it into the Citadel. Harbinger knew TIM was there waiting to use dominate on Shepard. TIM was expected to hold Shepard while they facilitated his indoctrination. TIM failed. And Shepard reached the chamber without being fully indoctrinated. The Reapers' arrogance bites them in the ass again... unless of course they manage to indoctrinate Shepard in the chamber.

[Jawsomebob]

This is amazing stuff.

[megamacka]

Here's the breakdown of that situation:

1. The forum that those comments were taken from were made by a user account known to be that of Patrick Weekes.

2. The comments were deleted. However, there were screenshots refrencing the situation and the risk of Weekes putting his job on the line. Whether they were real, I'm not sure.

3. Chris Priestly and Weekes deny the whole thing.

4. At some point (can't remember how it came out), apparently the account may have been hacked as you said.

5. After the denials, the situation was dusted under the rug and forgotten about.

My personal belief is the Weekes wrote that post, word of it broke out amidst all of the ME3 ending controversy, and then Weekes/BioWare denied all of it to save face.

Pretty much. Patrick Weekes is a smart guy and a fantastic writer. WIth the passion that his shown the series I doubt that he would just sit idle.

[megamacka]

It is obvious that Harbinger wanted Shepard to make it into the Citadel. Harbinger knew TIM was there waiting to use dominate on Shepard. TIM was expected to hold Shepard while they facilitated his indoctrination. TIM failed. And Shepard reached the chamber without being fully indoctrinated. The Reapers' arrogance bites them in the ass again... unless of course they manage to indoctrinate Shepard in the chamber.

This. I pretty much answered it before on this same page but I don't think he cba to read before answering.

        Illusive Man: "Because... I need you to believe

Modifié par megamacka, 13 septembre 2012 - 01:22 .

[The Twilight God]

jasonxxsatanna wrote...

Did anyone else get the feeling that during your meeting with Miranda that she was going to tell you more, like I actually did put a control chip in you or something, and why did Dr. Chakwaswant to examine your implants, it almost felt like there was going to be something to both those encounters that may be plot driven to the story, but nothing ever came about.
I was hoping it would show maybe that the tech used to bring back Shep was obvious reaper tech, but again nothing maybe another DLC would expand on it and maybe show how TIM was able to control Anderson and Shep.

If Shepard's implants and the lazarus nanites were "reaper tech" Shepard definitely wouldn't be himself.

The only way I could see TIM being indoctrinated prior to ME3 is if the Intelligence was working against the Reapers. I hypothesize in my Leviathan Analysis that the Leviathans were the first to be harvested because they were the instigators in every organic synthetic conflict. The other harvests occurred because of the perceived necessity due to the Leviathan's continued survival and subsequent meddling.

If each reaper program is in actuality a synthesized organic mind it may be possible that they deviated from the Intelligence's intent, forming their own culture and adapting the cycles to fit that new culture. Thus, it is the Intelligence that wants Shepard intact, the Intelligence that has indoctrinated TIM and the Intelligence who wants the Reapers to fail.

This is just a wild hypothesis though. I haven't put much thought into it. 

Modifié par The Twilight God, 13 septembre 2012 - 11:08 .