1238 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Goose]

In short, Shepard can survive Reapers trap, just by virtue of being biased organic supremacist (Paragon or Renegade doesn't matter). If Reapers are supposedly smart enough to devise the trap playing on Shepard's ethics, why they overlook that he or she will not bat an eye, if the only consequences of Destroy is dead synthetics and technological damage which can be easily repaired.

[N7Gold]

If destroying the Reapers is against the Intelligence's desires, why did he let Shepard go for it? Something tells me that the destruction of all synthetics is part of what the Catalyst wants to happen if he can't persuade Shepard into choosing Control or Synthesis because as you mentioned in the "Implications of the Leviathans" chapter, synthetics are a huge threat to the Leviathans because they can't be indoctrinated like organics, and that only a group of organics can be indoctrinated, not a whole population. With synthetics destroyed, that's not a total loss for the Leviathans, they can come back and control the so-called lesser species when they are ready to, and attack organics that are able to create synthetics before they get the idea to do so.

Modifié par N7Gold, 16 septembre 2012 - 02:40 .

[sveners]

Wow. That was a lot of words to present your headcanon as fact.

It's not though. But good for you if it gives you the ability to enjoy the ending.

[The Twilight God]

Updated - Addendum: Low EMS Destroy-Only Scenario

Minor tweeks to the alternate screenplay dialog.

Added completely new section that explains the difference between Low, Mid and High EMS. Why you only have 1 choice in low, 2 choices in mid, and 3 in high. Why the effects of the colloector decision result in what you see in-game. Including numbered deductive process.

Please let me know if any of that is unclear so that I can know what needs rewording or share any points I might have missed.

[llbountyhunter]

 I made a really condensed version of this a while back. Ill put the link up in case you or anyone else want to use it...

http://social.biowar.../index/12547432 

[Gunners1001]

Spent the past 2 days trying to make sense of the ending, with and without EC. Your thread has been very helpful for understanding

I've read through this entire thread, and maybe just because it's 5am and I'm tired, but I don't remember you addressing the fact that the Prothean VI on Thessia didn't detect Shep as indoctrinated, so even if it was a long-term indoctrination, surely the VI would have detected it (as the one on Ilos did for Saren). Would this not mean that Shep would have had to only begun to become indoctrinated post-Thessia? That doesn't leave very much time for an indoctrination which doesn't result in rapid decay. Given that strength to the idea of the long-term indoctrination of Shep seems to come from the fact that Shep was involved with reaper tech from early on, that can't really be the case then, can it?

Please explain when the indoctrination would have started post-Thessia to not cause such rapid decay, or how the VI did not detect Shep but did detect Kai Leng.

Thanks for your post OP, been very insightful so far

[kazE]

Gunners1001 wrote...

Spent the past 2 days trying to make sense of the ending, with and without EC. Your thread has been very helpful for understanding

I've read through this entire thread, and maybe just because it's 5am and I'm tired, but I don't remember you addressing the fact that the Prothean VI on Thessia didn't detect Shep as indoctrinated, so even if it was a long-term indoctrination, surely the VI would have detected it (as the one on Ilos did for Saren). Would this not mean that Shep would have had to only begun to become indoctrinated post-Thessia? That doesn't leave very much time for an indoctrination which doesn't result in rapid decay. Given that strength to the idea of the long-term indoctrination of Shep seems to come from the fact that Shep was involved with reaper tech from early on, that can't really be the case then, can it?

Please explain when the indoctrination would have started post-Thessia to not cause such rapid decay, or how the VI did not detect Shep but did detect Kai Leng.

Thanks for your post OP, been very insightful so far

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this can help explain the rapid nature of Shepard's indoctrination at the end:
youtu.be/ZoKCkSC-Os4 

Coupled with the fact that TIM uses dominate on wounded Shep while the Reapers try heavier indoctrination likely would have weakened Shep even more. But like TTG has said, he's only worn down and never fully indoctrinated until the player chooses Synthesis, Control, or Refuse -- he's only experiencing an indoctrination attempt.  

[megamacka]

kazE wrote...

Gunners1001 wrote...

Spent the past 2 days trying to make sense of the ending, with and without EC. Your thread has been very helpful for understanding

I've read through this entire thread, and maybe just because it's 5am and I'm tired, but I don't remember you addressing the fact that the Prothean VI on Thessia didn't detect Shep as indoctrinated, so even if it was a long-term indoctrination, surely the VI would have detected it (as the one on Ilos did for Saren). Would this not mean that Shep would have had to only begun to become indoctrinated post-Thessia? That doesn't leave very much time for an indoctrination which doesn't result in rapid decay. Given that strength to the idea of the long-term indoctrination of Shep seems to come from the fact that Shep was involved with reaper tech from early on, that can't really be the case then, can it?

Please explain when the indoctrination would have started post-Thessia to not cause such rapid decay, or how the VI did not detect Shep but did detect Kai Leng.

Thanks for your post OP, been very insightful so far

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this can help explain the rapid nature of Shepard's indoctrination at the end:
youtu.be/ZoKCkSC-Os4 

Coupled with the fact that TIM uses dominate on wounded Shep while the Reapers try heavier indoctrination likely would have weakened Shep even more. But like TTG has said, he's only worn down and never fully indoctrinated until the player chooses Synthesis, Control, or Refuse -- he's only experiencing an indoctrination attempt.  

Please mother of.... Don't post Clevernoobs video lol.....

[kazE]

megamacka wrote...
Please mother of.... Don't post Clevernoobs video lol.....

I was merely using to the show the part discussing the long term indoctrination of Rana Thanoptis. Is there a reason that is a poor example?

[llbountyhunter]

Gunners1001 wrote...

Spent the past 2 days trying to make sense of the ending, with and without EC. Your thread has been very helpful for understanding

I've read through this entire thread, and maybe just because it's 5am and I'm tired, but I don't remember you addressing the fact that the Prothean VI on Thessia didn't detect Shep as indoctrinated, so even if it was a long-term indoctrination, surely the VI would have detected it (as the one on Ilos did for Saren). Would this not mean that Shep would have had to only begun to become indoctrinated post-Thessia? That doesn't leave very much time for an indoctrination which doesn't result in rapid decay. Given that strength to the idea of the long-term indoctrination of Shep seems to come from the fact that Shep was involved with reaper tech from early on, that can't really be the case then, can it?

Please explain when the indoctrination would have started post-Thessia to not cause such rapid decay, or how the VI did not detect Shep but did detect Kai Leng.

Thanks for your post OP, been very insightful so far

I answered this in the link I posted...... 

http://social.biowar.../index/12547432

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 16 septembre 2012 - 08:27 .

[The Twilight God]

Fixers0 wrote...

Except the bad writing theory actually provides the audiance with a logical explanation of all the all the nonsensical random stuff that happens throughout the ending (and not only that).

Bad writting cannot provide a logical rational within the story. It is an assessment existing outside the story, plot, dialog, events, etc. It is merely a handwave because people wish to believe in their sunshine and butterflies endings. They want ME3 to have a truly happy endings so desperately that they refuse to acknowlegde emotionally what they are forced to acknowledge intellectually: That they were duped.

[Lord Goose]

Bad writting cannot provide a logical rational within the
story. It is an assessment existing outside the story, plot,
dialog, events, etc. It is merely a handwave

Just because the explanation exist outside the story, it doesn't makes this explanation flimsy. Where are many points which may support idea that the game has some quality issues, even besides the ending.

[Humakt83]

Bad writing whine theory is reserved for lazy thinkers or people without an ounce of imagination or speculative capabilities.

Have a nice day.

[The Twilight God]

Lord Goose wrote...

We don't know if Relays are still usable or not after Destroy. Note, that Hackett said what they are badly damaged, not "completely destroyed".

Not... sure... if... serious...





Either the first is the Charon Relay and the second is an Arcturus relay or Bioware didin't bother to make EMS specific cutscenes. The later pic looks like a comprimise between mid and high EMS relay explosions.

Whichever picture to look at, that thing ain't functional. I don't know if you were joking or serious.

Lord Goose wrote...

Just because we are lacking the information what may explain something, it doesn't mean that something cannot happen at all.

That's what I said. However, we can't simply say anything is possible just because we can concieve it. I can concieve a dinosaur companion who time traveled to the future to stop the Reapers. Doesn't make it plausible or valid reality within the mass effect universe. The burden of proof would be mine to demonstrate that dinosaurs have time travel capabilities.

Lord Goose wrote...

I don't remember that the Catalyst promised eternal peace and prosperity for everybody. Maybe I'm simplifying it, but as far as I understand it, Synthesis will just ensure that synthetics will not wipe out organics, because synthetics will have full understanding of organics, and organics won't have to create new synthetics, since they are integrated with technology. Potential Krogan-Salarian conflict, for example, is beyound Catalyst's concern, since it is "inner" conflict.

I said if Mr. Weekes claimed such a thing it would be deceitful. Not that he did.
 
However, EDI implies it. That is the impression the Reapers are affording her now that they are connected to everyone. She states, "With peace across the galaxy and with unlimited access to knowledge..." The future she envisions seems dependent on peace reigning. Or maybe I'm reading too far into it.  

Lord Goose wrote...

Well, these theories are not mutually exclusive. It could be literal interpretation AND bad writing, and indoctrination theory (any of it) and Bad Writing.

They are very much mutually exclusive.

Conflicting ideas cannot all be valid. Only one is valid or none. The ending being a dream sequence is not compatible with the ending taking place in waking reality. The two are mutally exclusive. I have actual proof and solid evidence leading to my conclusion. Dream Theory, on the otherhand, has none. It is founded on a baseless assumption, supported by circumstantial evidence and serves no purpose other than to give hope to people who hate the current endings. It's very much like a religion in that respect.

Lord Goose wrote...

For example, Shepard walking into explosion is clearly bad writing. Or Shepard SUDDENLY knowing that shooting the tube will activate the Crucible, without any explanation. whatsoever.

It's cheesy cinematography. Not bad writting. It's an irrelevent detail that has no real bearing on the plot or story. I'm not sure what you are referring to when commenting about Shepard suddenly knowing that shooting the tubes will activate the Crucible. Care to elaborate or did you mistype something?

[The Twilight God]

Phoenix535 wrote...

I'm sorry I hevent read the whole thing yet, but as soon as you said the geth arent necessarily destroyed by the destroy ending my eyes lit up.
First off let me say so far this is very intresting, I used to think that this new theory was for the stupid conspiritors. But now I see that the game is simply as complicated and awesome once you figure it out as anime!
NOw that I know (or at least think) that the Geth will not be destoryed I'm choosing destroy ending FTW especially because now I think synthesis might have just been shepard jumping into a laser beam and then the starchild sitting there practicing his evil laugh (I'm about halfway through control btw) I love this thread and no I'm gonna destroy those giant insect robots SOB's and then go talk to my new geth prime freinds on rannoch while it helps me build tali's house!

I'm glad you enjoyed it.

It isn't new. At least not from my perspective. I never played ME3 until after the EC so I wasn't around for the Dream Theory when it started. I was part of the bad writting crowd until I took the time to get over my butthurtness and actually accept what was in front of me. I wanted it to be bad writting because I was angry with Bioware and insulting their creativity was just me lashing out. Most of my anger was at the fact that Shepard was kinda left in a cliffhanger situation at the end of a trilogy (destroy). In a game that is supposed to be the last we see of Shepard. That fact still hasn't changed and my butt is still a bit sore. The game just becomes so down and depressing in the end. I'll meet you at the bar in heaven, this is out last talk ever, don't leave me behind, "I have a home"... and then you never see the light at the end of the tunnel. Your crew and LI are off who knows where and possibly suck in some far off cluster. And the last thing you see of a protagonist of 3 games (that are highly character driven), over the course of 5 years, is a crumpled body laying on rubble. Weak.

But I go over it to some extent. I still do not like what Bioware did. It's brilliant in a way, but at the same time the player indoctrintion dictates that no ending can have any real exposition. They are all mediocre endings that tell you nothing more than the original. They just threw in pretty pictures and a narrator to differentiate them from one another visiually. Although I'd love for them to redo the ending without any indoctrinate choices, IT-Con doesn't require this as the endings (albiet mediocre) make sense and are complete as is. 

I'm in the middle of editting them all. So they'll be new stuff added to each one except the Leviathan analysis. The questions given, the more answers I have and I then need to update the thesis to cover newly introduced ideas.

[Lord Goose]

Not... sure... if... serious...
Either the first is the Charon Relay and the second is an Arcturus relay or Bioware didin't bother to make EMS specific cutscenes. The later pic looks like a comprimise between mid and high EMS relay explosions.

Whichever picture to look at, that thing ain't functional. I don't know if you were joking or serious.

I'm pretty sure that judging capabilities of device by eye is not a way to go, especially if we are no experts on technology.

However, we can't simply say anything is possible just because we can concieve it.

Well, the slides are convcievable and were shown in game.

However, EDI implies it. That is the impression the Reapers are affording her now that they are connected to everyone. She states, "With peace across the galaxy and with unlimited access to knowledge..." The future she envisions seems dependent on peace reigning. Or maybe I'm reading too far into it.

We still have warlike Wreav slide in Synthesis, if the genophage is cured and he is in charge.Definitely not peace-promising.

The Synthesis is supposedly solution to the problem of synthetics eventually wiping out organics, and we have evidence what relationship between them is shifted into better way.

They are very much mutually exclusive.

Bad Writing Theory, as you noted already, exists outside the plot. It cannot come into conflict with theory existing inside plot.

It's cheesy cinematography. Not bad writting. It's an irrelevent detail that has no real bearing on the plot or story. I'm not sure what you are referring to when commenting about

Shepard walking into the explosion, without good reason to do it, is part of the plot (as majority of cut-scenes is). He or she engulfed in explosion, and that's probably should have detrimental effect. Shepard had only shoot the tube, and Carnifex is a powerful pistol. Where was no need to getting so close to the blast.

hepard suddenly knowing that shooting the tubes will activate the Crucible. Care to elaborate or did you mistype something?

The Catalyst explains that Crucible may allow him or her to destroy the Reapers, for example, but he didn't have told what Shepard had to do in order to activate it. Instead, Shepard had a vision of Anderson shooting the tube while walking in explosion.  It can be explained, if Shepard was still indoctrinated, and Reapers were simply trying to kill him or her by making Shepard walking into the fire, for example. Visions are, after all, also one of the symptoms of indoctrination...

Synthesis is even worse in that regard, since where is no explanation, why Shepard knows that he or she should jump into the beam.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 17 septembre 2012 - 03:55 .

[kazE]

Lord Goose wrote...

I'm pretty sure that judging capabilities of device by eye is not a way to go, especially if we are no experts on technology.

I'm sorry, but really? Look again:



Really?

[Lord Goose]

I'm sorry, but really? Look again:

Sustained severe damage? Yes.
Completely unsable? I'm not certain.

Hackett should have mentioned it, if that the case, I think. And when Alpha Relay was blown up, it took entire star system along with it. The explosion in Destroy ending was far less extensive

[megamacka]

The damned thing was torn in half and whatever powered it was severely overloaded and is obviously not working anymore. Usable? NO!!!!!!!!!!! Don't be ridiculous....
Fixable? Yes. Hackett says so.

 
 And when Alpha Relay was blown up 

It had a damned astroid bash right into it, it didn't have a crucible connecting with it....
The mass relays in ME3 were probably torn in half because of the massive overload or something. I am quite sure that there is a pretty big difference.

Modifié par megamacka, 17 septembre 2012 - 03:14 .

[Lord Goose]

The damned thing was torn in half and whatever powered it was severely overloaded and is obviously not working anymore. Usable? NO!!!!!!!!!!! Don't be ridiculous....

Alpha Relay had to be torn into pieces to make it unusable, that's my point. And that Relay seems to be keeping it's structure. At very least, the lower arm is still in place. Maybe I am nitpicking, but "severly damaged" doesn't mean "destroyed". If the Relays are indeed unusalbe, Hackett, in my opinion, should have noted that, instead of feeding us with ambiguity.

[llbountyhunter]

so even though the relay is clearly without power, it has no lights, a arm is missing (not connected)

you think its still usable? ships are ready to make jumps?


and just because the alpha relay was struck with a asteroid in order to destroy it, that doesn't mean that is the only way to break one.

[ElSuperGecko]

Great post, well thought out and argued. It's very close to my own interpretation of the endings!

[jasonxxsatanna]

I was wondering can anyone tell me if EDI dies in all 3 destroy low ,med,high EMS,I watched a YouTube vid of the destroy ending and her name appears on the memorial wall,.
I have not played the destroy EC, only did control EC so far and I must say Shep(narrator) seems like a dictator hell bent on controlling the galaxy… or was I the only one who felt that way.

[Lord Goose]

so even though the relay is clearly without power, it has no lights, a arm is missing (not connected)

you think its still usable? ships are ready to make jumps?

It might be useable, even though it is severly damaged. May not be as useful as before, but I think it might not be completely destroyed. Lower arm seems to be in the right place, even though it is not attached, so something must be operational.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 17 septembre 2012 - 04:38 .

[megamacka]

and just because the alpha relay was struck with a asteroid in order to destroy it, that doesn't mean that is the only way to break one.

I didn't say so. But there is a pretty significant difference between bashing a gigantic astroid into something and something overloading and releasing massive amounts of energy.

It might be useable, even though it is severly damaged. May not be as useful as before, but I think it might not be completely destroyed. Lower arm seems to be in the right place, even though it is not attached, so something must be operational. 

You do realise that these are some pretty advanced technologi we are talking about? Precision jumps and they have to be connected.... '' not as useful as before '' hardly means it's stable enough to make precision jumps all the way across the galaxy. How long it would take to repair them is unknown. It's probably something that they would prioritize however.

Modifié par megamacka, 17 septembre 2012 - 06:35 .