1238 réponses à ce sujet

[Samtheman63]

megamacka wrote...

Have you seen this? : http://www.clevernoo...timetable-leak/

I call it obvious trollcrap. But if it would somewhy prove to be true. Then this would be the biggest sell out I have ever witnessed in history of.... anything....
'' Hey guys! Buy all of our DLCs for an extra 60-100£for the game that you already paid for in order to get this super DLC ''.....

confirmed as fake

[megamacka]

Samtheman63 wrote...

megamacka wrote...

Have you seen this? : http://www.clevernoo...timetable-leak/

I call it obvious trollcrap. But if it would somewhy prove to be true. Then this would be the biggest sell out I have ever witnessed in history of.... anything....
'' Hey guys! Buy all of our DLCs for an extra 60-100£for the game that you already paid for in order to get this super DLC ''.....

confirmed as fake

Can you link so that I can start breathing again? I am so angry atm. I already hate EAwares sell out paid day 1 DLC, milk all the unresponsible consumer fanboys for all of their worth DLC marathon....

[Samtheman63]

https://twitter.com/...646484075290624

Modifié par Samtheman63, 25 septembre 2012 - 07:07 .

[jpraelster93]

Bioware can lie and say that its fake now but that wont change it when they do it

[Clayless]

Usually I wouldn't click a thread like this but now I'm glad because:

jpraelster93 wrote...

Bioware can lie and say that its fake now but that wont change it when they do it

I'm saving the link to this post. it's so delusional it has made me realise that people are even more delusional than I had even imagined, and no one else here is going to point out how completely insane a post like this is.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 25 septembre 2012 - 07:21 .

[RiouHotaru]

The Twilight God wrote...
Shepard cannot be immune to indoctrination. Its effects are physicological and psychological. The dreams and hallucinations he has had demonstrate it has effected him. The only thing shown to give any immunity to indoctrination is to be linked to the minds of non-indoctrinated people.  

However, Shepard's indoctrination is ultimately on the player, not Bioware. Rather you think their approach was a gross mistake is irrelevent.

Actually, Shepard can be immune.  Why?  Because he's the protagonist of a video game.  There are multiple examples in video games where the main character is made immune to an influence that has detrimental effects on everyone else.  Why you state with certainty that he cannot be immune or at the very least extremely resiliant makes no sense.  Also, the dreams aren't necessarily a sign of indoctrination.  They could be easily interpreted as a symptom of PTSD.

The Twilight God wrote...

Using Synthesis as an example:
It was you who was convinced the Reapers could be trusted. You who believed that peace could only be achieved via Synthesis. And in choosing to force it on everyone it is you who gave all the deaths the Reapers have committed for over a billion years validity. Your action and newfound belief in their cause dictated that the Reapers actions were, in fact, justified. You entered the chamber ready to put an end to the Reapers and in the end you relented and sided with them. You did. And therefore your choice dictated that Shepard was indoctrinated.

How do we know Shepard is in the throes of an indoctrination attempt? The narrative dictates it. The only explanation is indoctrination. Disagree? Give me a single reason for Shepard to trust the Reapers. Don't waste your time because there is none.  Bad writting requires one to ignore established game lore, which states reapers indoctrinate, in order to intentionally come to the conclusion of bad writting. It exist solely to assert the synthesis and control endings turn out well.  You don't jump to bad writting until you've exhausted all possibilities. So it isn't valid.

Shepard entered the Citadel with the intent to destroy the Reapers. Throughout the entire game, from Mars up to the point that the Kid presents Control as an option, Shepard has been against it. We're even told that in every cycle the people the Reapers indoctrinated always favored trying to control the Reapers. As far as we know Shepard has been opposed to synthesis as well. At the end of ME1 Shepard declares that synthesis is slavery and that he would rather die than live like that. There is nothing in the game to indicate his opinion changed. In fact, his reaction to the Cerberus troopers and Kai Leng's augmentations is indicative of that fact that he is still against reaper tech being put inside anyone. His comments on Sanctuary dictate he is against forcing such modifications on people.

And then out of the blue Shepard is all for it? Force reaper upgrades on everyone? Sure, why not! Control the Reapers? Sure! Who cares if I wasn't willing to bet humanities existence on it 5 minutes prior. And this change of heart is because a freaking Reaper said it was cool? The same group that habitually indoctrinates? Now we're supposed to believe that the Reapers  made a special exception and turned the indoctrination to snooze mode for Shepard when he's in a possition to end them once and for all? Of all the times to push the indoctrination envelope it is in their most dire moment that the Reapers turn it off? Really???

How do we identify indoctrinated people? A change in behavior and beliefs? Like when Kenson built a rocket on an asteroid to destroy a mass relay and then changed her mind. Deciding instead to help the Reapers and sacrifice her own life to that end. I think Shepard's blind absolute trust in the Reapers, belief in their ideals and willingness to die for their cause is a big departure from his normal behavior. Don't you? Shepard is indoctrinated in choosing control, sysnthesis and refuse. Within the confines of the story told by bioware, it isn't an assumption, it's a fact. There is no alternative explanation.

Again, you make a number of assumptions in this chunk here that I'm not sure where to begin with.  One, that Synthesis being a proposed solution from the Catalyst makes it a bad idea.  It's not trusting the Reapers.  Remember, the Catalyst is the "intelligence" created by the Leviathans.  It's sole mandate is to preserve life at any cost.  The Catalyst attempted numerous solutions to solve the "problem", including Synthesis, but found that it wasn't possible.  Therefore, it was forced to fall back on the Reaper Solution, creating the cycles to facilitate this solution until a better, more permanent alternative could be implimented.  With the completion and attachment of the Crucible, these alternatives are Destroy, Control, and Synthesis.

The only reason Control was hand-waved by everyone in the game besides TIM is that no-one believed he was capable of doing so.  And even if he could control them, no-one believed he had any right to do so, and that it was a horrible idea because of the possible implications if he couldn't control them.  That we learn that it IS possible to control them isn't bad writing, or some sign of indoctrination.  It means that TIM's idea of controlling them was a sound one, he just couldn't impliment the solution himself for the obvious reason.  Again, what exactly makes Shepard more capable of controlling them than TIM?  If Shepard was indoctrinated, then he, like TIM, should be incapable of utilizing Control.  You can't explain that.  As for the fact you dislike Synthesis, that's a personal preference.

Again, just because it's an idea coming from your "enemy" (and to call the Catalyst your "enemy" is a stretch), doesn't make it an unsound one.

The Twilight God wrote...
No, that's an assumption on your part. At no point do the Leviathans state the Intelligence is located on the Citadel. If you believe the Leviathans, it is implied that the Intelligence existed before the mass relays and the Citadel is a mass relay. For all you know the Kid is just Harbinger communicating with Shepard via hallucination like it did at the end of the Arrival DLC. The second assumption you make is that the Leviathans are 100% honest and incapable of lies, lies of ommision or half-truths. This is the same error people make in dealing with the Kid. The Kid is a liar. Fact. I've proven it and if you disagree feel free to try and rebute my assertions.
 
The Kid makes several blatant lies which are covered in Part V: The Catalyst's Deceptions in particular. In parts 1-3 my deductive processes are included in the form of a numbered list. In these segments I demonstrate the fact that the Kid is being dishonest. Now rather or not it's intentions are "good" is up for debate. However, I personally find it highly improbable that an entity would lie to you, try to indoctrinate you and then destroy the Crucible if you procrastinate for too long if its intentions were good. Especially given its billion year record of genocide, physiciological mutilation and psychlogical manipulation.

The Catalyst isn't a liar.  None of the statements he makes regarding himself are untrue.  And the Leviathans have no reason to lie, and neither does the Catalyst.  And honestly, you haven't proven the Kid is a liar.  You've proven that you BELIEVE he's a liar.  And honestly, to go through your "evidence", which is all mostly you speculating on the Catalyst's motives based on your beliefs, would take longer than I have right now, but I'll just sum it up:

1) There's no reason for the Leviathans to lie to Shepard about what happened to them.
2) The Catalyst openly confirms the validity of the information given by the Leviathans.  Given that the Catalyst and the Leviathans are enemies, it makes no sense for him to confirm that information unless it was true.
3) The Catalyst has no reason to lie.  You assume he has constant and direct control over all the Reapers, all the time.

The Twilight God wrote...
To convince Shepard to try and control the Reapers. 

Shepard isn't "exempt".  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but I assume you mean "Why can't Shepard take control". If you'd read Part II of the thesis you'd understand that rather an indiovidual is indoctrinated or not isn't relevent. The Reapers are not going to build a device of their own votiliton for the express purpose of letting one guy take command of them. It's an absurd idea.

Then why didn't they allow TIM to control them?  And you're forgetting, the Reapers and the Catalyst are two separate entities.  So the idea isn't absurd.
 

The Twilight God wrote...
Let me ask you a question: Can you explain why Harbinger lets Shepard live? Why a Reaper controlled TIM was trying to convince Shepard of the necessity of control?

Harbinger allowed Shepard to live. Why would he do that if he had no ulterior motive? The beam he fires at Shepard's path is to the left of Shepard (changed in the EC) as not to strike him. Yet he knocks aircraft out of the sky with pinpoint accuracy. There are two soldiers running ahead of Shepard who Harbinger blasts away in two pinpoint shots. If Reapers have eyes and/or it saw the Normandy despite the stealth drive it stands to reason it did not blow it up for fear of Shepard being killed by the explosion. Shepard had to have been unconscious and vulnerable for a bit as the battlefield was different when he awoke indicating fighting occurred while he was out. And you think Harbinger allowed Shepard to live and carry on without any ulterior motive? It seems obvious to me that it wanted Shepard to make it through the Conduit before the Crucible ever docked. The Illusive Man, under reaper control, was lying in wait. He used dominate to hold Shepard in place while the Reapers hammered away at Shepard; all the while trying to convince Shepard that control is viable and the only way.

Post-Leviathan, EDI states the fact that the fact the Leviathans still live means the Reapers are not perfect and are quite falliable, even in the extreme long-term.  That Harbinger left Shepard alive doesn't prove anything aside from that: the Reapers are not perfect, they can still make mistakes.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 25 septembre 2012 - 08:06 .

[The Twilight God]

megamacka wrote...

Have you seen this? : http://www.clevernoo...timetable-leak/

I call it obvious trollcrap. But if it would somewhy prove to be true. Then this would be the biggest sell out I have ever witnessed in history of.... anything....
'' Hey guys! Buy all of our DLCs for an extra 60-100£for the game that you already paid for in order to get this super DLC ''.....

It's kinda what I expected. Albeit the last bit. Although I wouldn't be surprised. The EA president is all about roping people in, getting them committed and then nickel-and-diming them once they are thouroughly invested in the product. I can understand the need or requiring at least some prior DLC if the story elements within the final DLC are contengent upon information and events within the prior DLC. However, requiring people to buy all the DLC to properly end the series will be the end of Bioware or the end of gaming as we know it. Gamers with lots of expendable income will destroy the market for those who don't. If people allow them to get away with it they will open the floodgates. Game prices will officially go from $60(incomplete) to $100(complete game). ME2 DLC was cool because they were all side stroies. But to pay for what is in reality the vanilla game??? Want that house on rannoch or blue children ending? Pony up!!! Leviathan already does this as the DLC is kind of important to the overall lore. Thank Chad Hurley, Steve Chen, and Jawed Karim for Youtube.


On another note, I'm not sure if it was you or someone else, but someone was inquiring about how Shepard lifts up into the decision chamber. I was tweeking the low EMS post and came to the following conclusion upon studying the scene:


Apparently,  the platform located directly in front of the dais console is designed with a pressure plate trigger.  It is activated on the conditions that the Citadel ward arms are open (15 degrees) and that an individual remains on the platform.  When these conditions are met the platform lifts them up to the underside of the Citadel Tower, while at the same time this triggers the ward arms open to a complete 90 degree angle. At this point the Citadel is converting to mass relay mode. The beam that fires from the Citadel to the Charon mass relay is the same as the beam fired from the Charon mass relay to the Arcturus mass relay. If the Kid could do this (change the Citadel to mass relay mode), it would have done this in Mass Effect 1. So it's a nigh imposibility that the Kid is the one who raises the platfrom.

This supports the concept of the Leviathans creating the Crucible. The control prongs have four handle grips. The Keepers have four arms. Perhaps that console is what the Keepers would use to activate the relay before the Protheans altered them. Maybe the keepers were the second race to be harvested, the race that evolved on the same world as the Leviathans. Maybe the Leviathans, via orbs, commanded the keepers to make the control and synthesis array as a failsafe. Or it was built in prior prior, before Crucible technology was invented and thus wasn't effective?? I understand how Synthesis could benefit them, but not Control. Perhpas Soverign was.. *gasp* the Keeper Reaper!!! Is your mind blown? Speculation for everyone. 

[The Twilight God]

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...


Actually, Shepard can be immune. Why? Because he's the protagonist of a video game. [/quote]
 
If you need to resort to "It's just a game" arguments, you've already lost and might as well just admit you have no solid foundation to stand on. There is really no point as anything can be possible because it's "just a video game". Who cares about narrative cohesion, consistency, lore, etc. You'll just make stuff up and claim you don't need any precedence for your assertions because video games don't have to make sense or stories don't have to follow their own rules. Not going down that road.
 
[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...
 
There are multiple examples in video games where the main character is made immune to an influence that has detrimental effects on everyone else. Why you state with certainty that he cannot be immune or at the very least extremely resiliant makes no sense. [/quote]
 
If you believe Shepard is immune then you subscribe to the "Bad Writing Theory". Because there is no explanation for Shepard's change of heart: Going from being against the Reapers on every issue to committing suicide to further their goals. It is never stated that shepard has any immunity to indoctrination. The events of the Arrival DLC, the dreams and the voices Shepard hears during the confrontation with TIM and the cacophony of whispers under the Kid's dialog attest that Shepard is affected by indoctrination.  He's either in the throes of an indoctrination attempt (which makes sense within the ME universe) or the writers are really really really bad (which requires you to ignore the fact that reapers indoctrinate). Take your pick. There is simply no other explanation besides indoctrination and until you demonstrate otherwise, that assertion stands.
 
[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...
 
Also, the dreams aren't necessarily a sign of indoctrination. They could be easily interpreted as a symptom of PTSD.[/quote]
 
No, they can't. I have gone over this.
 
[quote] Part I: Destroy Analysis
 
Note: Shepard has dreams which can also be linked to the Reapers. The Cerberus science team on the Derelict Reaper as well as the members of Dr. Kenson's team all complained of strange dreams in the course of their indoctrination. There are those who like to attribute these dreams to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. This disorder is not compatible with the narrative or plot. PTSD would result in Shepard being incapable of entering into situations that prompted the PTSD in the first place. PTSD would impair Shepard's social and occupational functionality. This is not the case. The woman named Talitha from ME1 (colonist Shepard Citadel quest) had PTSD.[/quote]


Did you lie when you said you read the thesis? 
 
This isn't a Dream Theory thread. Too many people come here thinking Indoctrination Theory equals Dream Theory. No, this theory is based on facts and logical deduction.

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...

The only explanation is indoctrination. Disagree? Give me a single reason for Shepard to trust the Reapers. [/quote]
 
Please address this. Your entire proposition relies on your ability to present a narratively consistent alternative explanation. If you cannot do this you have already lost in regards to the subject of an indoctrination attempt taking place. You can argue against the plausibility of some of my other assertions, but indoctrination did take place. And until you demonstrate otherwise it is a fact within the confine of our discussion. Your inability to address this will count as your de facto agreement with that assertion. I will not allow you to skip arguments disproving your assertions and continue on as if you didn't see them. Put up or shut up.


[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Again, you make a number of assumptions in this chunk here that I'm not sure where to begin with. One, that Synthesis being a proposed solution from the Catalyst makes it a bad idea. It's not trusting the Reapers. Remember, the Catalyst is the "intelligence" created by the Leviathans. It's sole mandate is to preserve life at any cost. The Catalyst attempted numerous solutions to solve the "problem", including Synthesis, but found that it wasn't possible. Therefore, it was forced to fall back on the Reaper Solution, creating the cycles to facilitate this solution until a better, more permanent alternative could be implemented. With the completion and attachment of the Crucible, these alternatives are Destroy, Control, and Synthesis.[/quote]
 
First of all, trusting the Kid is trusting the Reapers. It explicitly states, "I control the Reapers. They are MY solution." It goes on to say, "I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers." At several points it says things like "WE are no different", "WE harvest your bodies...", "WE preserve it...", "WE believed the concept had been eradicated", "WE already controlled him.", "you will control US...", "WE will be yours..."  and "organics are more resourceful than WE realized." It is every bit as much the enemy as any cuttlefish reaper. To say otherwise is like saying that trusting Osama bin Laden is not the same as trusting Al Qaeda. Or trusting Hitler is not the same as trusting the nazi regime. 

Second, just because the Leviathans says something doesn't make it true. Some of their comments hint that the Leviathans themselves started the cycles in the first place, but didn't expect it to blow up in their faces. This blind trust is why you were duped by the Kid. "The Kid says so" does not constitute proof of its claims. That's like saying the Bible proves that humans were the first land mammals.
 
Third, you do not know that the Intelligence the Leviathans mention is the entity you see on the Citadel. At no point do they ever make a claim that the Intelligence is physically located on the Citadel. That belief is a product of your personal conjecture. Please, don't make me have to repeat this again.
 
[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

The only reason Control was hand-waved by everyone in the game besides TIM is that no-one believed he was capable of doing so. And even if he could control them, no-one believed he had any right to do so, and that it was a horrible idea because of the possible implications if he couldn't control them. That we learn that it IS possible to control them isn't bad writing, or some sign of indoctrination. It means that TIM's idea of controlling them was a sound one, he just couldn't impliment the solution himself for the obvious reason. Again, what exactly makes Shepard more capable of controlling them than TIM? If Shepard was indoctrinated, then he, like TIM, should be incapable of utilizing Control. You can't explain that. As for the fact you dislike Synthesis, that's a personal preference.[/quote]
 
By that logic we also learned that we are dust struggling against cosmic winds and that humanity would fall. We also learned that Reapers have no beginning, no end and that they are infinite.
 
We never learned that we can control the Reapers. We are simply told by the Reapers themselves. And they go on to tell you that in order to control them you have to interact with a device that will kill you. That requires absolute blind faith in the Reapers. If the Reapers are being dishonest (*gasp* Perish the thought! They're such nice guys!) then you have just sacrificed humanity and all other sentient beings of this cycle because you were indoctrinated into trusting them. There is no other explanation beside indoctrination. Fact.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

The Catalyst isn't a liar. None of the statements he makes regarding himself are untrue. And the Leviathans have no reason to lie, and neither does the Catalyst. And honestly, you haven't proven the Kid is a liar. You've proven that you BELIEVE he's a liar. And honestly, to go through your "evidence", which is all mostly you speculating on the Catalyst's motives based on your beliefs, would take longer than I have right now, but I'll just sum it up:[/quote]
 
I have provided indisputable proof that it lies. You're inability to point out how I am incorrect demonstrates your agreement with my conclusion. Otherwise, I await your formal rebuttal. Between you and me, you agree with my assessment. Until you demonstrate otherwise, the Kid does lie to us. Fact.
 
I await your rebuttal. But I won't hold my breath.
 
And next time you can't formulate a proper rebuttal (for whatever reason) don't come here making claims you're not willing to back up in the form of a rebuttal. Either reply with a rebuttal or be quiet and wait until you have time to properly respond. There is nothing worse that empty rebuffs like, "You're wrong because I say so".


[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

1) There's no reason for the Leviathans to lie to Shepard about what happened to them.
2) The Catalyst openly confirms the validity of the information given by the Leviathans. Given that the Catalyst and the Leviathans are enemies, it makes no sense for him to confirm that information unless it was true.
3) The Catalyst has no reason to lie. You assume he has constant and direct control over all the Reapers, all the time.[/quote]
 
1. Neither you nor I are in a position to dictate their motivations. You can't just make baseless assertions like that and parade it as fact. You need to formulate an argument. Make your case. However, we can speculate. Since the Leviathans cannot control synthetic life, they are the ones who started the cycles to keep organics from creating synthetics. Their fear is that synthetics will usurp them as the apex species if allowed to self determinate unchecked. Once the Reapers are dealt with they will be free to built their numbers and reclaim their former glory at our expense. That would be a reason withhold information, don't you think? Speculation: Part VI: The Implications of the Leviathans
 
2. We don't know if the Kid is the Intelligence or a reaper. Obviously, the Reapers are in Shepard's head as that's where they got the kid's image and voice from. They know about your encounter with the Leviathans. If you really want to take this approach then you must acknowledge that the Reapers' actions are in accordance with Leviathans directives.
 
Leviathan states, "There was no mistake. It still serves its purpose."
The Kid confirms this by stating, "We did what we were expected. And I welcome their involvement. We are only facilitating their request."
 
You should read the Implications of The Leviathans before posting a reply.
 
3. Being terminated is a big reason to lie. The Geth and the rogue AI on the Citadel in ME1 have shown us that AIs in the ME universe will do whatever is necessary for self preservation.
 
Further, I do not assume the Intelligence controls the Reapers at all. I believe it imprinted Harbinger with a mandate and each subsequent reaper has been imprinted with this mandate. They aren't mindless toys as the Kid makes them out to be. Which is one reason among many that I think Control is utter BS.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Then why didn't they allow TIM to control them? And you're forgetting, the Reapers and the Catalyst are two separate entities. So the idea isn't absurd.[/quote]
 
I've already established that the Kid is the Reapers and the Reapers are the Kid, if we believe it is the Intelligence. With that being said, the Reapers do not want TIM. The Reapers have openly expressed a desire to get Shepard. Sovereign wanted Shepard on its side. Harbinger wanted Shepard's corpse. Harbinger directed the Collectors to recover Shepard intact in all fights where it is present. In the Arrival DLC, Harbinger expressed that it wanted Shepard alive and had its minion take Shepard alive. Harbinger spares Shepard during the Conduit Run. The Reapers wanted Shepard's code integrated into themselves. There is something about him that TIM, the Reapers and the Leviathans acknowledge. Admiral Hackett also points out what makes Shepard special.
 
Whenever I make a post or statement I consider what my counter argument would be. It is not until I cannot counter my own argument that I present it. Please, do this. It would save us both a lot of time.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Post-Leviathan, EDI states the fact that the fact the Leviathans still live means the Reapers are not perfect and are quite falliable, even in the extreme long-term. That Harbinger left Shepard alive doesn't prove anything aside from that: the Reapers are not perfect, they can still make mistakes.[/quote]
 
So your answer is that it made a mistake and missed Shepard?
Then, while Shepard was unconscious and vulnerable it made another mistake and forgot about Shepard?
It made a third mistake and didn't blow up the Normandy?
Then to top it off the Reapers mistakenly tried to convince Shepard of the necessity of control through TIM vs. just having TIM kill Shepard?
Harbinger made a mistake and directed the Collectors to recover Shepard intact in all fights where it is present? It actually mean to tell them to disintegrate him?
Harbinger made a mistake when it expressed that it wanted Shepard alive? It actually meant to tell Kenson and crew to kill him?
And you're equating the "mistake" of not being able to find every prothean or leviathan in the entire galaxy or every needle in a haystack the size of the Americas with missing a target after being shown to possess pinpoint accuracy?
 
I just want to be clear that this is what you are actually saying. 

Modifié par The Twilight God, 27 septembre 2012 - 03:23 .

[Wayning_Star]

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...


Actually, Shepard can be immune. Why? Because he's the protagonist of a video game. [/quote]
 
If you need to resort to "It's just a game" arguments, you've already lost and might as well just admit you have no solid foundation to stand on. There is really no point as anything can be possible because it's "just a video game". Who cares about narrative cohesion, consistency, lore, etc. You'll just make stuff up and claim you don't need any precedence for your assertions because video games don't have to make sense or stories don't have to follow their own rules. Not going down that road.
 
[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...
 
There are multiple examples in video games where the main character is made immune to an influence that has detrimental effects on everyone else. Why you state with certainty that he cannot be immune or at the very least extremely resiliant makes no sense. [/quote]
 
If you believe Shepard is immune then you subscribe to the "Bad Writing Theory". Because there is no explanation for Shepard's change of heart: Going from being against the Reapers on every issue to committing suicide to further their goals. It is never stated that shepard has any immunity to indoctrination. The events of the Arrival DLC, the dreams and the voices Shepard hears during the confrontation with TIM and the cacophony of whispers under the Kid's dialog attest that Shepard is affected by indoctrination.  He's either in the throes of an indoctrination attempt (which makes sense within the ME universe) or the writers are really really really bad (which requires you to ignore the fact that reapers indoctrinate). Take your pick. There is simply no other explanation besides indoctrination and until you demonstrate otherwise, that assertion stands.
 
[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...
 
Also, the dreams aren't necessarily a sign of indoctrination. They could be easily interpreted as a symptom of PTSD.[/quote]
 
No, they can't. I have gone over this.
 
[quote] Part I: Destroy Analysis
 
Note: Shepard has dreams which can also be linked to the Reapers. The Cerberus science team on the Derelict Reaper as well as the members of Dr. Kenson's team all complained of strange dreams in the course of their indoctrination. There are those who like to attribute these dreams to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. This disorder is not compatible with the narrative or plot. PTSD would result in Shepard being incapable of entering into situations that prompted the PTSD in the first place. PTSD would impair Shepard's social and occupational functionality. This is not the case. The woman named Talitha from ME1 (colonist Shepard Citadel quest) had PTSD.[/quote]


Did you lie when you said you read the thesis?
 
This isn't a Dream Theory thread. Too many people come here thinking Indoctrination Theory equals Dream Theory. No, this theory is based on facts and logical deduction. You will not succeed here by regurgitating arguments against Dream Theory which is nothing but circular logic and circumstantial evidence based around a groundless assertion that it's all a dream. All for the false hope that Bioware will radically rewrite ending.
[quote]The Twilight God wrote...

The only explanation is indoctrination. Disagree? Give me a single reason for Shepard to trust the Reapers. [/quote]
 
Please address this. Your entire proposition relies on your ability to present a narratively consistent alternative explanation. If you cannot do this you have already lost in regards to the subject of an indoctrination attempt taking place. You can argue against the plausibility of some of my other assertions, but indoctrination did take place. And until you demonstrate otherwise it is a fact within the confine of our discussion. Your inability to address this will count as your de facto agreement with that assertion. I will not allow you to skip arguments disproving your assertions and continue on as if you didn't see them. Put up or shut up.


[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Again, you make a number of assumptions in this chunk here that I'm not sure where to begin with. One, that Synthesis being a proposed solution from the Catalyst makes it a bad idea. It's not trusting the Reapers. Remember, the Catalyst is the "intelligence" created by the Leviathans. It's sole mandate is to preserve life at any cost. The Catalyst attempted numerous solutions to solve the "problem", including Synthesis, but found that it wasn't possible. Therefore, it was forced to fall back on the Reaper Solution, creating the cycles to facilitate this solution until a better, more permanent alternative could be implemented. With the completion and attachment of the Crucible, these alternatives are Destroy, Control, and Synthesis.[/quote]
 
First of all, trusting the Kid is trusting the Reapers. It explicitly states, "I control the Reapers. They are MY solution." It goes on to say, "I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers." At several points it says things like "WE are no different", "WE harvest your bodies...", "WE preserve it...", "WE believed the concept had been eradicated", "WE already controlled him.", "you will control US...", "WE will be yours..."  and "organics are more resourceful than WE realized." It is every bit as much the enemy as any cuttlefish reaper. To say otherwise is like saying that trusting Osama bin Laden is not the same as trusting Al Qaeda. Or trusting Hitler is not the same as trusting the nazi regime. 

Second, just because the Leviathans says something doesn't make it true. Some of their comments hint that the Leviathans themselves started the cycles in the first place, but didn't expect it to blow up in their faces. This blind trust is why you were duped by the Kid. "The Kid says so" does not constitute proof of its claims. That's like saying the Bible proves that humans were the first land mammals.
 
Third, you do not know that the Intelligence the Leviathans mention is the entity you see on the Citadel. At no point do they ever make a claim that the Intelligence is physically located on the Citadel. That belief is a product of your personal conjecture. Please, don't make me have to repeat this again.
 
[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

The only reason Control was hand-waved by everyone in the game besides TIM is that no-one believed he was capable of doing so. And even if he could control them, no-one believed he had any right to do so, and that it was a horrible idea because of the possible implications if he couldn't control them. That we learn that it IS possible to control them isn't bad writing, or some sign of indoctrination. It means that TIM's idea of controlling them was a sound one, he just couldn't impliment the solution himself for the obvious reason. Again, what exactly makes Shepard more capable of controlling them than TIM? If Shepard was indoctrinated, then he, like TIM, should be incapable of utilizing Control. You can't explain that. As for the fact you dislike Synthesis, that's a personal preference.[/quote]
 
By that logic we also learned that we are dust struggling against cosmic winds and that humanity would fall. We also learned that Reapers have no beginning, no end and that they are infinite.
 
We never learned that we can control the Reapers. We are simply told by the Reapers themselves. And they go on to tell you that in order to control them you have to interact with a device that will kill you. That requires absolute blind faith in the Reapers. If the Reapers are being dishonest (*gasp* Perish the thought! They're such nice guys!) then you have just sacrificed humanity and all other sentient beings of this cycle because you were indoctrinated into trusting them. There is no other explanation beside indoctrination. Fact.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

The Catalyst isn't a liar. None of the statements he makes regarding himself are untrue. And the Leviathans have no reason to lie, and neither does the Catalyst. And honestly, you haven't proven the Kid is a liar. You've proven that you BELIEVE he's a liar. And honestly, to go through your "evidence", which is all mostly you speculating on the Catalyst's motives based on your beliefs, would take longer than I have right now, but I'll just sum it up:[/quote]
 
I have provided indisputable proof that it lies. You're inability to point out how I am incorrect demonstrates your agreement with my conclusion. Otherwise, I await your formal rebuttal. Between you and me, you agree with my assessment. Until you demonstrate otherwise, the Kid does lie to us. Fact.
 
I await your rebuttal. But I won't hold my breath.
 
And next time you can't formulate a proper rebuttal (for whatever reason) don't come here making claims you're not willing to back up in the form of a rebuttal. Either reply with a rebuttal or be quiet and wait until you have time to properly respond. There is nothing worse that empty rebuffs like, "You're wrong because I say so".


[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

1) There's no reason for the Leviathans to lie to Shepard about what happened to them.
2) The Catalyst openly confirms the validity of the information given by the Leviathans. Given that the Catalyst and the Leviathans are enemies, it makes no sense for him to confirm that information unless it was true.
3) The Catalyst has no reason to lie. You assume he has constant and direct control over all the Reapers, all the time.[/quote]
 
1. Neither you nor I are in a position to dictate their motivations. You can't just make baseless assertions like that and parade it as fact. You need to formulate an argument. Make your case. However, we can speculate. Since the Leviathans cannot control synthetic life, they are the ones who started the cycles to keep organics from creating synthetics. Their fear is that synthetics will usurp them as the apex species if allowed to self determinate unchecked. Once the Reapers are dealt with they will be free to built their numbers and reclaim their former glory at our expense. That would be a reason withhold information, don't you think? Speculation: Part VI: The Implications of the Leviathans
 
2. We don't know if the Kid is the Intelligence or a reaper. Obviously, the Reapers are in Shepard's head as that's where they got the kid's image and voice from. They know about your encounter with the Leviathans. If you really want to take this approach then you must acknowledge that the Reapers' actions are in accordance with Leviathans directives.
 
Leviathan states, "There was no mistake. It still serves its purpose."
The Kid confirms this by stating, "We did what we were expected. And I welcome their involvement. We are only facilitating their request."
 
You should read the Implications of The Leviathans before posting a reply.
 
3. Being terminated is a big reason to lie. The Geth and the rogue AI on the Citadel in ME1 have shown us that AIs in the ME universe will do whatever is necessary for self preservation.
 
Further, I do not assume the Intelligence controls the Reapers at all. I believe it imprinted Harbinger with a mandate and each subsequent reaper has been imprinted with this mandate. They aren't mindless toys as the Kid makes them out to be. Which is one reason among many that I think Control is utter BS.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Then why didn't they allow TIM to control them? And you're forgetting, the Reapers and the Catalyst are two separate entities. So the idea isn't absurd.[/quote]
 
I've already established that the Kid is the Reapers and the Reapers are the Kid, if we believe it is the Intelligence. With that being said, the Reapers do not want TIM. The Reapers have openly expressed a desire to get Shepard. Sovereign wanted Shepard on its side. Harbinger wanted Shepard's corpse. Harbinger directed the Collectors to recover Shepard intact in all fights where it is present. In the Arrival DLC, Harbinger expressed that it wanted Shepard alive and had its minion take Shepard alive. Harbinger spares Shepard during the Conduit Run. The Reapers wanted Shepard's code integrated into themselves. There is something about him that TIM, the Reapers and the Leviathans acknowledge. Admiral Hackett also points out what makes Shepard special.
 
Whenever I make a post or statement I consider what my counter argument would be. It is not until I cannot counter my own argument that I present it. Please, do this. It would save us both a lot of time.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Post-Leviathan, EDI states the fact that the fact the Leviathans still live means the Reapers are not perfect and are quite falliable, even in the extreme long-term. That Harbinger left Shepard alive doesn't prove anything aside from that: the Reapers are not perfect, they can still make mistakes.[/quote]
 
So your answer is that it made a mistake and missed Shepard?
Then, while Shepard was unconscious and vulnerable it made another mistake and forgot about Shepard?
It made a third mistake and didn't blow up the Normandy?
Then to top it off the Reapers mistakenly tried to convince Shepard of the necessity of control through TIM vs. just having TIM kill Shepard?
And you're equating the "mistake" of not being able to find every prothean or leviathan in the entire galaxy or every needle in a haystack the size of the Americas with missing a target after being shown to possess pinpoint accuracy?
 
I just want to be clear that this is what you are actually saying. [/quote]

to interject: I'd say that the IT folks needs to find out why Shep was rescusitated and by who and who designed the crucible and it's apparent choices. Without that information,the "indoctrination" can only be another form of communication with the catalyst "ilk".  Shep can communicate with all these forms of advanced Ai and other Prothean relics,even their minor Ai thought Shep to be a Prothean. Maybe it were the cypher, but it was never varified.

This leads me/other fans to think the whole IT is based on the idea the communication with the catalyst and others are the same as with the Leviathan. Only with tech not organic form of indoctrination, but not for control.

Then that forms the idea that Shep is impervious to indoctrination.

I'm a firm believer that Shep never ever made it physically up to the catalyst platform to make the decisions posed, but is left wounded by the reaper blast in a pile of rubble on Earth. Normally reapers would take care of resisitance, but in Sheps case, it's the job of the catallyst to control Shep, but, cannot because of the crucible interference. So I also believe that Shep is most HIGHLY resistent to indoctrination for some unknown reason, but then I don't really know why Shep was killed, why rejuvinated nor who was responsible, really for that. Who designed the crucible, the machinery/tech for a fountain of youth(so quickly forgotten, of which I think is like totally weird.)and the author of the four choices. None related to indoctrination theory?

[The Twilight God]

Wayning_Star wrote...

to interject: I'd say that the IT folks needs to find out why Shep was rescusitated and by who and who designed the crucible and it's apparent choices. Without that information,the "indoctrination" can only be another form of communication with the catalyst "ilk".  Shep can communicate with all these forms of advanced Ai and other Prothean relics,even their minor Ai thought Shep to be a Prothean. Maybe it were the cypher, but it was never varified.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Rescusitated?
Given what evidence exists, the Reapers designed the contraption that provides the Control and Synthesis "choices".
Indoctrination as communication with the Citadel (i.e. catalyst)? Or do you mean the Kid/Reapers? 
Neither Vendetta nor Vigil claimed Shepard was a prothean. Both acknowledged that the protheans were dead and that it was a new cycle.

Could elaborate a bit. I'm not quite following you. 

Wayning_Star wrote...

This leads me/other fans to think the whole IT is based on the idea the communication with the catalyst and others are the same as with the Leviathan. Only with tech not organic form of indoctrination, but not for control.

Then that forms the idea that Shep is impervious to indoctrination.

Huh?

No, IT isn't a singular idea. You're over simplifiying IT. There are many different concepts. As far as this thread is concerned, Leviathan Control and Reaper Indoctrination are two completely seperate things. Just like Thorian Thralldom and Rachni Queen Hivemind. They are all distinct forms of influence.

Nothing you have said indicates in the slightest that Shepard is immune to indoctrination.

Wayning_Star wrote...

I'm a firm believer that Shep never ever made it physically up to the catalyst platform to make the decisions posed, but is left wounded by the reaper blast in a pile of rubble on Earth.

The breathe scene definitely takes place on the Citadel. The rubble and the hanging wires are present on the Citadel. The wiring hanging in pairs, just like the the corridor you arrived in further indicates this. The fact that the wires are hanging indicates a ceiling structure. His armor is damaged in the same way it was after the blast. The standing dust cloud and the fact that it is slowly seeping upward despite the clear sound of a breeze. In the very start of the scene you can hear debris being moved (a rescue team?) and the sound carries the echo of an enclosed area. 

Wayning_Star wrote...

Normally reapers would take care of resisitance, but in Sheps case, it's the job of the catallyst to control Shep, but, cannot because of the crucible interference. So I also believe that Shep is most HIGHLY resistent to indoctrination for some unknown reason, but then I don't really know why Shep was killed, why rejuvinated nor who was responsible, really for that. Who designed the crucible, the machinery/tech for a fountain of youth(so quickly forgotten, of which I think is like totally weird.)and the author of the four choices. None related to indoctrination theory?

I honestly don't understand half the stuff you write. I'm going to reply to certain parts based on what I think you're trying to say.

The Crucible is not even docked when Shepard is knocked out. The Citadel arms are still closed. So where are you getting the idea that the Crucible is doing anything to the Kid? Shepard is not immune to indoctrination. Fact. Ignore everything else, but Arrival proves that the Reapers have the ability to effect him. You can't just force a waking hallucination on someone out of the blue without doing something to them. The fact that he hears voices up on the Citadel demonstrates this also. You're in denial.

[liggy002]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...
Shepard cannot be immune to indoctrination. Its effects are physicological and psychological. The dreams and hallucinations he has had demonstrate it has effected him. The only thing shown to give any immunity to indoctrination is to be linked to the minds of non-indoctrinated people.  

However, Shepard's indoctrination is ultimately on the player, not Bioware. Rather you think their approach was a gross mistake is irrelevent.

Actually, Shepard can be immune.  Why?  Because he's the protagonist of a video game.  There are multiple examples in video games where the main character is made immune to an influence that has detrimental effects on everyone else.  Why you state with certainty that he cannot be immune or at the very least extremely resiliant makes no sense.  Also, the dreams aren't necessarily a sign of indoctrination.  They could be easily interpreted as a symptom of PTSD.

The Twilight God wrote...

Using Synthesis as an example:
It was you who was convinced the Reapers could be trusted. You who believed that peace could only be achieved via Synthesis. And in choosing to force it on everyone it is you who gave all the deaths the Reapers have committed for over a billion years validity. Your action and newfound belief in their cause dictated that the Reapers actions were, in fact, justified. You entered the chamber ready to put an end to the Reapers and in the end you relented and sided with them. You did. And therefore your choice dictated that Shepard was indoctrinated.

How do we know Shepard is in the throes of an indoctrination attempt? The narrative dictates it. The only explanation is indoctrination. Disagree? Give me a single reason for Shepard to trust the Reapers. Don't waste your time because there is none.  Bad writting requires one to ignore established game lore, which states reapers indoctrinate, in order to intentionally come to the conclusion of bad writting. It exist solely to assert the synthesis and control endings turn out well.  You don't jump to bad writting until you've exhausted all possibilities. So it isn't valid.

Shepard entered the Citadel with the intent to destroy the Reapers. Throughout the entire game, from Mars up to the point that the Kid presents Control as an option, Shepard has been against it. We're even told that in every cycle the people the Reapers indoctrinated always favored trying to control the Reapers. As far as we know Shepard has been opposed to synthesis as well. At the end of ME1 Shepard declares that synthesis is slavery and that he would rather die than live like that. There is nothing in the game to indicate his opinion changed. In fact, his reaction to the Cerberus troopers and Kai Leng's augmentations is indicative of that fact that he is still against reaper tech being put inside anyone. His comments on Sanctuary dictate he is against forcing such modifications on people.

And then out of the blue Shepard is all for it? Force reaper upgrades on everyone? Sure, why not! Control the Reapers? Sure! Who cares if I wasn't willing to bet humanities existence on it 5 minutes prior. And this change of heart is because a freaking Reaper said it was cool? The same group that habitually indoctrinates? Now we're supposed to believe that the Reapers  made a special exception and turned the indoctrination to snooze mode for Shepard when he's in a possition to end them once and for all? Of all the times to push the indoctrination envelope it is in their most dire moment that the Reapers turn it off? Really???

How do we identify indoctrinated people? A change in behavior and beliefs? Like when Kenson built a rocket on an asteroid to destroy a mass relay and then changed her mind. Deciding instead to help the Reapers and sacrifice her own life to that end. I think Shepard's blind absolute trust in the Reapers, belief in their ideals and willingness to die for their cause is a big departure from his normal behavior. Don't you? Shepard is indoctrinated in choosing control, sysnthesis and refuse. Within the confines of the story told by bioware, it isn't an assumption, it's a fact. There is no alternative explanation.

Again, you make a number of assumptions in this chunk here that I'm not sure where to begin with.  One, that Synthesis being a proposed solution from the Catalyst makes it a bad idea.  It's not trusting the Reapers.  Remember, the Catalyst is the "intelligence" created by the Leviathans.  It's sole mandate is to preserve life at any cost.  The Catalyst attempted numerous solutions to solve the "problem", including Synthesis, but found that it wasn't possible.  Therefore, it was forced to fall back on the Reaper Solution, creating the cycles to facilitate this solution until a better, more permanent alternative could be implimented.  With the completion and attachment of the Crucible, these alternatives are Destroy, Control, and Synthesis.

The only reason Control was hand-waved by everyone in the game besides TIM is that no-one believed he was capable of doing so.  And even if he could control them, no-one believed he had any right to do so, and that it was a horrible idea because of the possible implications if he couldn't control them.  That we learn that it IS possible to control them isn't bad writing, or some sign of indoctrination.  It means that TIM's idea of controlling them was a sound one, he just couldn't impliment the solution himself for the obvious reason.  Again, what exactly makes Shepard more capable of controlling them than TIM?  If Shepard was indoctrinated, then he, like TIM, should be incapable of utilizing Control.  You can't explain that.  As for the fact you dislike Synthesis, that's a personal preference.

Again, just because it's an idea coming from your "enemy" (and to call the Catalyst your "enemy" is a stretch), doesn't make it an unsound one.

The Twilight God wrote...
No, that's an assumption on your part. At no point do the Leviathans state the Intelligence is located on the Citadel. If you believe the Leviathans, it is implied that the Intelligence existed before the mass relays and the Citadel is a mass relay. For all you know the Kid is just Harbinger communicating with Shepard via hallucination like it did at the end of the Arrival DLC. The second assumption you make is that the Leviathans are 100% honest and incapable of lies, lies of ommision or half-truths. This is the same error people make in dealing with the Kid. The Kid is a liar. Fact. I've proven it and if you disagree feel free to try and rebute my assertions.
 
The Kid makes several blatant lies which are covered in Part V: The Catalyst's Deceptions in particular. In parts 1-3 my deductive processes are included in the form of a numbered list. In these segments I demonstrate the fact that the Kid is being dishonest. Now rather or not it's intentions are "good" is up for debate. However, I personally find it highly improbable that an entity would lie to you, try to indoctrinate you and then destroy the Crucible if you procrastinate for too long if its intentions were good. Especially given its billion year record of genocide, physiciological mutilation and psychlogical manipulation.

The Catalyst isn't a liar.  None of the statements he makes regarding himself are untrue.  And the Leviathans have no reason to lie, and neither does the Catalyst.  And honestly, you haven't proven the Kid is a liar.  You've proven that you BELIEVE he's a liar.  And honestly, to go through your "evidence", which is all mostly you speculating on the Catalyst's motives based on your beliefs, would take longer than I have right now, but I'll just sum it up:

1) There's no reason for the Leviathans to lie to Shepard about what happened to them.
2) The Catalyst openly confirms the validity of the information given by the Leviathans.  Given that the Catalyst and the Leviathans are enemies, it makes no sense for him to confirm that information unless it was true.
3) The Catalyst has no reason to lie.  You assume he has constant and direct control over all the Reapers, all the time.

The Twilight God wrote...
To convince Shepard to try and control the Reapers. 

Shepard isn't "exempt".  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but I assume you mean "Why can't Shepard take control". If you'd read Part II of the thesis you'd understand that rather an indiovidual is indoctrinated or not isn't relevent. The Reapers are not going to build a device of their own votiliton for the express purpose of letting one guy take command of them. It's an absurd idea.

Then why didn't they allow TIM to control them?  And you're forgetting, the Reapers and the Catalyst are two separate entities.  So the idea isn't absurd.
 

The Twilight God wrote...
Let me ask you a question: Can you explain why Harbinger lets Shepard live? Why a Reaper controlled TIM was trying to convince Shepard of the necessity of control?

Harbinger allowed Shepard to live. Why would he do that if he had no ulterior motive? The beam he fires at Shepard's path is to the left of Shepard (changed in the EC) as not to strike him. Yet he knocks aircraft out of the sky with pinpoint accuracy. There are two soldiers running ahead of Shepard who Harbinger blasts away in two pinpoint shots. If Reapers have eyes and/or it saw the Normandy despite the stealth drive it stands to reason it did not blow it up for fear of Shepard being killed by the explosion. Shepard had to have been unconscious and vulnerable for a bit as the battlefield was different when he awoke indicating fighting occurred while he was out. And you think Harbinger allowed Shepard to live and carry on without any ulterior motive? It seems obvious to me that it wanted Shepard to make it through the Conduit before the Crucible ever docked. The Illusive Man, under reaper control, was lying in wait. He used dominate to hold Shepard in place while the Reapers hammered away at Shepard; all the while trying to convince Shepard that control is viable and the only way.

Post-Leviathan, EDI states the fact that the fact the Leviathans still live means the Reapers are not perfect and are quite falliable, even in the extreme long-term.  That Harbinger left Shepard alive doesn't prove anything aside from that: the Reapers are not perfect, they can still make mistakes.

So you mean to say that Harbinger made a mistake when he was staring at the Normandy and just let it fly off.  Seriously, that is a HELL OF A MISTAKE to make.

[megamacka]

I just have this funny feeling, that most people whom are trying to prove Twg wrong never even read the OP text......

[ElSuperGecko]

I wish people would only quote the particular text they are responding to, rather than the entire previous post.  It doesn't take long to edit a quote, and it stops the thread getting cluttered.

Once again, great job TWG, lots of food for thought here.

[megamacka]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

I wish people would only quote the particular text they are responding to, rather than the entire previous post.  It doesn't take long to edit a quote, and it stops the thread getting cluttered.

Once again, great job TWG, lots of food for thought here.

What? It makes them look intellectual . As if they've written a novel or something.

[Fedi.St]

megamacka wrote...

I just have this funny feeling, that most people whom are trying to prove Twg wrong never even read the OP text......

More those same people always ignore the lore of the game given through the codex. 

[megamacka]

http://social.biowar...ndex/14270089/1

[The Twilight God]

megamacka wrote...

http://social.biowar...ndex/14270089/1

Looks mighty familiar.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 28 septembre 2012 - 06:29 .

[Fedi.St]

cheap ripoff. secondary facts which are purely subpositions by the OP.

[68sierra]

I don't care what the heck the endings mean anymore, I just know I was disappointed with it. But I will laugh like crazy if one day, one of the writers of this game comes out and says "Indoctrination Theory" was true.

I'm glad to see the OP put some logical thought behind this theory, though. Pre-EC IT concepts seem far fetched to me. This one, at least makes sense. However, the fact that the OP (and many others) have to come up with this long detailed explanation on what REALLY happens, shows me that the game's ending narrative was a true failure.

[ElSuperGecko]

68sierra wrote...
...However, the fact that the OP (and many others) have to come up with this long detailed explanation on what REALLY happens, shows me that the game's ending narrative was a true failure.

...not necessarily.  "Plenty of speculation for everyone", remember?

Would people be analysing the endings and discussing them this much if Mass Effect 3 had a straightforward story?  No, the board would probably have died off months ago.

[megamacka]

The Twilight God wrote...

megamacka wrote...

http://social.biowar...ndex/14270089/1

Looks mighty familiar.

Idd, I just came across it yesterday. Blasphemy!  

[The Twilight God]

68sierra wrote...

I don't care what the heck the endings mean anymore, I just know I was disappointed with it. But I will laugh like crazy if one day, one of the writers of this game comes out and says "Indoctrination Theory" was true.

I'm glad to see the OP put some logical thought behind this theory, though. Pre-EC IT concepts seem far fetched to me. This one, at least makes sense. However, the fact that the OP (and many others) have to come up with this long detailed explanation on what REALLY happens, shows me that the game's ending narrative was a true failure.

The idea itself isn't long winded.

IT-Con: Refuse shows that Shepard has been manipulated into allowing the Reapers to win. He openly betrays the galaxy by hanging them out to dry. Synthesis and Control are traps intended to convince any would-be hero from destroying them. Shepard was in the throes of an indoctrination attempt. You're choice as a player decides rather or not the Reapers succeeded or failed. The endings do not show how anything turns out. The narrators speak in the present tense about what they hope will, think or plan to make happen. But you never actually see it happen. It isn't an epilogue since the narration has no direct correlation to the pictures shown. The slides, at best, portray what the narrator envisions might happen.

That's it. 

It's the culmination of evidence and the rationale that is long winged. Take the theory of evolution. The theory itself is relatively simple, but to actually prove it scientist are going to have to be long winded. The more evidence, the longer the explanation.

But people don't like the ending and would rather have nonsense endings that make them feel good vs. a plausible ending with only one real choice. As much as people rant about the "bad writing", the turth is they need it to be bad writing and make a conscious choice to believe it is so despite evidence to the contrary. This is a part of human nature.

[jasonxxsatanna]

Wow ,TTG, you have one of the best threads around on BSN.
I don't know it any one had ask your opinions on this, if they have answered forgive me for asking again.
If BW plan the ending to be speculated on, as they have stated , do you think they expected or plan for this?
Do you believe they expected people to think and investigate the endings with such passion to figure out the out come of the endings?

[Fedi.St]

Chris Priestly wrote...
No. The IT thread remains here as it is a valid possibility for the end of the game.

Anyone who does not like the IT or thinks it not to be correct is STRONGLY enouraged to stay away from discussion on it.


LOCKDOWN!

http://social.biowar...242318#13247292


Given that by now the hallucination theory can safely be discounted I think this thread must be renamed to the endings codex. It is more likely than ever

[megamacka]

Fedi.St wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...
No. The IT thread remains here as it is a valid possibility for the end of the game.

Anyone who does not like the IT or thinks it not to be correct is STRONGLY enouraged to stay away from discussion on it.


LOCKDOWN!

http://social.biowar...242318#13247292


Given that by now the hallucination theory can safely be discounted I think this thread must be renamed to the endings codex. It is more likely than ever

+1 

Modifié par megamacka, 28 septembre 2012 - 08:58 .