1238 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

On topic though.

Have you added anything to the OP since Leviathan?

Modifié par Steelcan, 10 avril 2013 - 11:26 .

[The Twilight God]

Steelcan wrote...

On topic though.

Have you added anything to the OP since Leviathan?

No, I haven't been up to anything ME related. I was working on an update, but I kind of got tired of the bickering and decided to take a break from the forums. I might see if I still have the files. 

Was there anything relevant in that Citadel DLC?  I haven't watched any Youtube vids of Citadel DLC yet. I watched an Omega playthrough, but it wasn't relevant to the greater mythos of the series.

I thought I was done with ME, but the MEHEM looks nice so I might be able to enjoy the series again. Although I'd keep the Kid in it just to point out via "flashback dialog" why Synthesis and Control are poor choices. Basically, to have Shepard mentally acknowledging that this construct is trying to deceive him, tell it that he isn't a idiot and proceed to shoot the "tubes". Not sure if there is any existing dialog for those last bits though:)

[Big Bad]

OP, I like your ideas. If I were to ever uninstall MEHEM and allow the Catalyst back into my game, I think I would go with your hypothesis as my head cannon.

[Steelcan]

The Twilight God wrote...


No, I haven't been up to anything ME related. I was working on an update, but I kind of got tired of the bickering and decided to take a break from the forums. I might see if I still have the files. 

Was there anything relevant in that Citadel DLC?  I haven't watched any Youtube vids of Citadel DLC yet. I watched an Omega playthrough, but it wasn't relevant to the greater mythos of the series.

.   Sadly no.  Citadel DLC is fan service pure and simple.  That said it is a much more satisfying good-bye than the actual ending to the game.

[Bill Casey]

The Twilight God wrote...

Was there anything relevant in that Citadel DLC?

www.youtube.com/watch

[PirateMouse]

The Twilight God wrote...

Let us put to rest any idea that Destroy compromises with the Reapers in any way.

Actually, you didn't so much compromise with them as play right into their hands.  Starbrat was laughing his ghostly AI ass off at you after he actually tricked you into destroying the Crucible by shooting it.  Of course, you were Indoctrinated, after all ...

Modifié par PirateMouse, 11 avril 2013 - 04:38 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

PirateMouse wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Let us put to rest any idea that Destroy compromises with the Reapers in any way.

Actually, you didn't so much compromise with them as play right into their hands.  Starbrat was laughing his ghostly AI ass off at you after he actually tricked you into destroying the Crucible by shooting it.  Of course, you were Indoctrinated, after all ...

Indeed, if you reductio ad absurdum and use "sounds like"-nonsense the way this theory (and, to be fair, many a Destroy-ideologue) does towards Control, Sync, and Refuse, you can postulate that Destroy is a Reaper-compromise.

Here, lemme try....

Dr. Kenson was indoctrinated. She believed that it was silly to think the Reapers are evil, saying: "It's simply foolish for the Reapers to mean doom for the galaxy. Legends say they've come through here before, and yet life continues doesn't it?" Choosing Destroy is believing that the Reapers are allowing life to continue, just like Dr. Kenson believed. Therefore, you are indoctrinated!!



Mind you, I'm not so illogical as to believe this (nor do I believe the nonsensical equivalents for the other options).

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 11 avril 2013 - 04:57 .

[The Twilight God]

PirateMouse wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Let us put to rest any idea that Destroy compromises with the Reapers in any way.

Actually, you didn't so much compromise with them as play right into their hands.  Starbrat was laughing his ghostly AI ass off at you after he actually tricked you into destroying the Crucible by shooting it.  Of course, you were Indoctrinated, after all ...

Hehe, are you trying to "indoctrinate" me into a pissing contest?  Obvious instigation is obvious.

[The Twilight God]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

PirateMouse wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Let us put to rest any idea that Destroy compromises with the Reapers in any way.

Actually, you didn't so much compromise with them as play right into their hands.  Starbrat was laughing his ghostly AI ass off at you after he actually tricked you into destroying the Crucible by shooting it.  Of course, you were Indoctrinated, after all ...

Indeed, if you reductio ad absurdum and use "sounds like"-nonsense the way this theory (and, to be fair, many a Destroy-ideologue) does towards Control, Sync, and Refuse, you can postulate that Destroy is a Reaper-compromise.

Here, lemme try....

Dr. Kenson was indoctrinated. She believed that it was silly to think the Reapers are evil, saying: "It's simply foolish for the Reapers to mean doom for the galaxy. Legends say they've come through here before, and yet life continues doesn't it?" Choosing Destroy is believing that the Reapers are allowing life to continue, just like Dr. Kenson believed. Therefore, you are indoctrinated!!



Mind you, I'm not so illogical as to believe this (nor do I believe the nonsensical equivalents for the other options).

Yeah, wiping them from the face of the galaxy and completely thwarting their motives can totally be seen as compromising with them.

[PirateMouse]

The Twilight God wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

PirateMouse wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Let us put to rest any idea that Destroy compromises with the Reapers in any way.

Actually, you didn't so much compromise with them as play right into their hands.  Starbrat was laughing his ghostly AI ass off at you after he actually tricked you into destroying the Crucible by shooting it.  Of course, you were Indoctrinated, after all ...

Indeed, if you reductio ad absurdum and use "sounds like"-nonsense the way this theory (and, to be fair, many a Destroy-ideologue) does towards Control, Sync, and Refuse, you can postulate that Destroy is a Reaper-compromise.

Here, lemme try....

Dr. Kenson was indoctrinated. She believed that it was silly to think the Reapers are evil, saying: "It's simply foolish for the Reapers to mean doom for the galaxy. Legends say they've come through here before, and yet life continues doesn't it?" Choosing Destroy is believing that the Reapers are allowing life to continue, just like Dr. Kenson believed. Therefore, you are indoctrinated!!



Mind you, I'm not so illogical as to believe this (nor do I believe the nonsensical equivalents for the other options).

Yeah, wiping them from the face of the galaxy and completely thwarting their motives can totally be seen as compromising with them.

Is that what you think you did? Well, indoctrination can be tricky like that.

Come now, you really believed shooting the Crucible activated it? When's the last time you activated something by shooting it, hm? Do you turn on your computer by putting a slug into it? Do you blow a hole in the side of your car to start it? When's the last time you turned on your coffee maker using a Glock?

It didn't occur to you that the Starbrat might just be hoping to sucker you into shooting and breaking the crucial device that could have allowed you to usurp its control?

Perhaps it would have if you hadn't been indoctrinated.  Tsk.

[The Twilight God]

PirateMouse wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

PirateMouse wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Let us put to rest any idea that Destroy compromises with the Reapers in any way.

Actually, you didn't so much compromise with them as play right into their hands.  Starbrat was laughing his ghostly AI ass off at you after he actually tricked you into destroying the Crucible by shooting it.  Of course, you were Indoctrinated, after all ...

Indeed, if you reductio ad absurdum and use "sounds like"-nonsense the way this theory (and, to be fair, many a Destroy-ideologue) does towards Control, Sync, and Refuse, you can postulate that Destroy is a Reaper-compromise.

Here, lemme try....

Dr. Kenson was indoctrinated. She believed that it was silly to think the Reapers are evil, saying: "It's simply foolish for the Reapers to mean doom for the galaxy. Legends say they've come through here before, and yet life continues doesn't it?" Choosing Destroy is believing that the Reapers are allowing life to continue, just like Dr. Kenson believed. Therefore, you are indoctrinated!!



Mind you, I'm not so illogical as to believe this (nor do I believe the nonsensical equivalents for the other options).

Yeah, wiping them from the face of the galaxy and completely thwarting their motives can totally be seen as compromising with them.

Is that what you think you did? Well, indoctrination can be tricky like that.

Come now, you really believed shooting the Crucible activated it? When's the last time you activated something by shooting it, hm? Do you turn on your computer by putting a slug into it? Do you blow a hole in the side of your car to start it? When's the last time you turned on your coffee maker using a Glock?

It didn't occur to you that the Starbrat might just be hoping to sucker you into shooting and breaking the crucial device that could have allowed you to usurp its control?

Perhaps it would have if you hadn't been indoctrinated.  Tsk.

Well, let me know if you ever actually read the subject matter (or decide to stop playing dumb in a failed trolling attempt). Until then, there is nothing further to be said. You either didn't read the first post or you read it and you're trying to provoke a negative reaction.

[Wynterdust]

A perfect write up and thoroughly interesting read. It really shows that a lot of it is right in front of us all the time. It makes me wonder why people still say that its awful. I know its only a theory, but its the only one that makes sense and certainly looks to be correct.
10/10.

[gavgav77]

 An amazing read!  I found this thread by chance and was compelled to read the entire thing.

I certainly do like the indoctrination theory, it makes sense with everything we have seen. I agree that BioWare actually indoctrinating the player to pick Control (and possibly Synthesis) is a really clever idea. I hope that it was their intention all along. To me, it makes sense that it was - if BioWare had no intention of potentially indoctrinating the player, then why not just add a standard Reaper Destruction ending?

I'm going to finish my 2nd ME3 run tomorrow night (got the beers on standby), this time with the Extended Cut. I'll report back with my findings.

[Fedi.St]

it's a very good assesment why destroy should be chosen at the very least.

it's not on what if or what bioware intended to do etc. it's what the game showed us!

[The Twilight God]

Wynterdust wrote...

A perfect write up and thoroughly interesting read. It really shows that a lot of it is right in front of us all the time. It makes me wonder why people still say that its awful. 

Mainly because in order to get people to even consider Control or Synthesis, Destroy (I.e. victory) was ruined. Even if the events are thematically sound under the premise of this theory, the ending is nonetheless unsatisfying and lacking closure in the one "win" ending. The Bioware ending is therefore incomplete. A very important aspect to many people was left up in the air.  It's sad that some guys who aren't being paid a salary to provide customers entertainment had to be the ones to fix Bioware's stubborn failure via mod and make the series playable again.

[Ithurael]

Awww....I miss this thread.

To this day I still think this is the most viable version of indoctrination theory we have. Yeah, it still needs the player to stretch the imagination, but nowhere nearly as much as the original endings or vanilla it.

And Twilight God was always a pleasure to talk to.

[The Twilight God]

The Catalyst is a Deceiver

This should not be a surprise to anyone. It claims to be the collective intelligence of the Reapers, in effect, making it the embodiment of the Reapers. And yet people swallowed its lies whole without even bothering to chew.

We have witnessed enough evidence to counter the Catalyst's claims concerning the Reapers; 2.9 games worth of established lore. What makes the claims of the "Reaper Ambassador" in the last 10 minutes more valid than the last 119 hours and 50 minutes? Do you honestly believe Sovereign and Harbinger’s attitudes would be the best approach to take if the Reapers want to survive this encounter? Do you think the Reapers are stupid enough to think they could ever convince anyone to not Destroy them if they were as brutally honest as they have been when they believed themselves unassailable?


1. The Catalyst's first lie: "I am the Catalyst".

Shepard replies, "I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst?"
The Kid answers, "No, the Citadel is part of me."

"Catalyst" is just a designation the Protheans used to hide the fact that it was the Citadel. The term "catalyst" is either read from The Illusive Man's or Shepard's mind. Similar to how the likeness of the little boy was pulled from Shepard's mind (and probably placed there by the Reapers in the first place). How else would it even know to refer to itself as the Catalyst?

The Crucible never required the Kid. The Crucible required the Citadel. As the endings illustrate, the relays are necessary to distribute the Crucible's payload across the galaxy. The Citadel, being the master controller of the relay network, allows for this outcome. Remember, the Crucible started out as a standalone device. Due to blast radius limitations some species down the line adapted it to work with the Citadel. Probably the Leviathans.

The idea that anyone would build a weapon to defeat an enemy reliant upon said enemy's willing collaboration to work is absurd. This would involve fighting through the Reapers’ forces and praying that they would simply capitulate and suicide themselves if anyone managed to dock the Crucible. That does not makes any sense. Even if the Crucible is intended to be constructed and set in place before the harvest begins there is still the issue of convincing the enemy to collaborate in their own destruction, but you also notify them of your intentions. If anyone knew about the Kid, would it not make sense to simply detonate the Crucible within the vicinity of the Citadel prior to adapting it to work with the Citadel and cut of the head of the snake? Regardless, it is "Starbinger" who needs the Crucible to make its own agenda a reality.


2. The Kid's second lie: "The device you refer to as the Crucible is little more than a power source".

The Kid claims the Crucible is little more than a battery. This is only true in relation to its own suggestions: Control and Synthesis.

The notion that it is just a battery is contradicted by Vendetta who states. "At some point --it is difficult to pinpoint when--the Crucible plans were adapted to incorporate the use of the [Citadel]. Presumably, the Crucible was not sufficiently powerful enough to defeat the Reapers." This indicates that the Crucible is more than just a power source, but a weapon in and of itself.

The Crucible cannot defeat the Reapers because it does not have an effective range great enough to cover the entire galaxy at once. By itself it could only eliminate the Reapers in a relatively small portion of the galaxy. As the endings illustrate, the relays are necessary to distribute the Crucible's payload across the galaxy. The Citadel, being the master controller of the relay network, allows for this outcome.


3. The Kid's third lie: "You have altered the variables."

Shepard asks, "What do you mean?
The Kid answers, "The Crucible changed me. Created new possibilities."

The Kid has not been changed by the Crucible in the slightest. We already establish in Parts II and III of this thesis that the possibility for Synthesis and Control exist on the Citadel prior to the addition of the Crucible seeing as the Crucible serves as "just a battery" for those functionalities. The Kid claims to control the Reapers, the Reapers are still engaging both Sword and Shield fleets and if Shepard dallies for too long the Reapers will destroy the Crucible. Therefore, its modus operandi remains unaltered after the Crucible docks with the Citadel. So how exactly has the Kid changed? It hasn't.

The lie continues: "The Crucible changed me. Created new possibilities."

It was established in Parts II and III of this thesis that the Kid must have had prior awareness of the viability of Synthesis and Control before the Crucible ever docked if all the Crucible does is provide power. The only limiting factor prior to the Crucible docking is power. Obviously, the Control prongs and Synthesis array did not spring into existence out of thin air moments after the Crucible docked; they were previously constructed. Therefore, the Crucible allows for pre-existent functionalities to be actualized instead of creating new possibilities.

So how can the variables be altered, when the very existence of the Control prongs and Synthesis array demonstrate that the Reapers planned for the possibility of the Crucible docking? Clearly, it was an anticipated variable.


4. The Kid's fourth lie: " I do not look forward to being replaced by you, but I would be forced to accept it"

The Kid claims that it does not look forward to being controlled/replaced by Shepard if he comments on Control are negatively slanted. This is seemingly intended to convey the false impression that attempting to replace the Kid is something it finds distasteful. However, the circumstances dictate otherwise.

Shepard says, "I didn't fight this war to give up everything I have."
The Kid replies, "And I do not look forward to being replaced by you, but I would be forced to accept it"

No, it would not be forced to accept. It is the Kid who activates the Control prongs. When the Control prongs are first shown, they are deactivated. It is not until Shepard approaches them that the Kid activates them right before your eyes. If the Kid can turn the Control prongs on and off at will how is it "forced to accept it"? It isn't. It has been established in Part II of this thesis the absurdity of the Reapers devoting resources to create a device of their own volition that performs a function they are opposed to.


5. The Kid's fifth lie: "It is the ideal solution. Now that we know it is possible, it is enviable we will reach synthesis"

The Kid, and by extension the Reapers, asserts that Synthesis is an ideal solution to the hypothetical problem plaguing organics and synthetics. It has been established that the Reapers are aware of the viability of Synthesis prior to the Crucible's docking. So why do the Reapers resist the docking of the Crucible and, if Sword and Shield forces aren't strong enough to hold them back, damage it to a point where Synthesis isn't viable? Why do the Reapers continue putting up resistance after the Crucible docks? Why do the Reapers destroy the Crucible if (given enough time to break through Sword and Shield defenses) Shepard procrastinates for too long? The answer is simple: The ideal solution, from the Reaper perspective, is the continuation of the cycle.

The lie continues: "It is the ideal solution. Now that we know it is possible, it is enviable we will reach synthesis."

Despite this statement, the Reapers continue harvesting organic and synthetic life if you refuse to use the Crucible. They will not allow synthesis to occur at our own pace and on our own terms. If the Kid is sincere about the inevitability of Synthesis, why does it continued the harvest if you refuse to use the Crucible? The destruction of organics eliminates the inevitability of Synthesis.

But I guess it's only a partial lie. Becoming a Reaper is a form of synthesis. Upon arrival within the central chamber of the Collector Base, EDI informs Shepard that the Reapers are both organic and synthetic.

EDI: The tubes are feeding into some kind of super-structure. It is emitting both organic and non-organic energy signatures
EDI: Shepard, if my calculations are correct, the super-structure... is a Reaper.
EDI: It appears the Collectors have processed tens of thousands of humans. significantly more will be required to complete the Reaper.

Given the fact that the super-structure itself was being infused directly with humanity goo and given the appearance of the reaper embryo it can be assumed that the Reaper actually grows in a manner akin to organic life. At least to some extent. But clearly, given the context of the conversation, the intent of that statement was meant to refer to individualized synthesis as opposed to amalgamated synthesis in reaper form. Or was it?

 

Conclusion

Bioware has affectively indoctrinated the player. The Bioware writers pulled a fast one on many of you. After 100s of hours of game play with the sole focus of stopping the Reapers, in the last ten minute they changed the protagonist's motives from "destroy the reapers" to "assist the Reapers with their galactic social studies assignment." It's a clever way to end the series as indoctrination is the enemy's most insidious weapon. It is fitting that it would constitute Shepard's final obstacle.

As I have illustrated in Parts I thru III of this thesis the Control and Synthesis endings are intended to draw players away from Destroy. Destroy is presented negatively; being the only ending with collateral damage and a return to "chaos", while the other two depict sunshine and butterflies with synthetics and organics living happily ever after. Even the coloration of the decisions are tailored to draw paragon players (who make up the majority) toward Control (blue) and paint Destroy (red) as renegade. Synthesis then takes up the center of the conversation wheel as the "Rally the Crowd" option.

So of course a typical argument against any indoctrination theory is, "But the Extended Cut disproves anything and everything involving indoctrination. Everything turns out great. In fact, things turn out better in the Control and Synthesis endings than they do in Destroy. All Praise the Reapers for their truth and honesty!”

But do things turn out better in Control and Synthesis?

This is never definitely elaborated upon. All of the epilogue slides involve a narrator speaking about what they foresee will happen, want to happen, hope will happen or plan to make happen. The slides do not actually occur in real-time. Nothing in the slides actually occur in-game. It's not set in stone. Even the Stargazer scene, which takes place in an unspecified place and time, involving an unspecified species is ambiguous. The Stargazer says, "Some of the details have been lost in time. It all happened so very long ago" so for all we know whatever ending the player chooses is just his telling of the legend. Even if the player chooses Control or Synthesis, Destroy can still be what actually occurred "so very long ago". Also, we don't know what occurred between the end of ME3 and the Stargazer scene. It's possible the galaxy of another cycle had to battle the "Shreapards" or there was a guerilla war to break free from synthesis indoctrination (Matrix style).

Another argument is the blurb which pops up after every ending states "Congratulations on bringing an end to the Reaper threat..." First, this is something that exists outside the game itself. It's in the same category as the main screen where you pick New Game, Load Game, etc. Second, it says the same thing after the Refuse ending in which nothing Shepard nor the player does brings an end to the Reaper threat.

Control
The only thing we know occurs in real-time regarding the Reapers is that they cease their immediate attack and begin repairs on the relays. The narrator is speaking about what they will do; Not what has been done. The epilogue may be narrated by a Shepard flavored Starbinger whose goals are identical to its predecessor. When it says it will give the many hope and a voice in their future, when it says it will protect the many, it could very well mean ascending them into reaper form to protect them from being forever lost in a hypothetical synthetic ushered apocalypse. Or it could be a delusional Shepard within the great Reaper super consciousness deceived into believing it is in control. And although it has a positive outlook for the future, none of it ever comes to pass.

During the conversation on the Citadel with The Illusive Man, Shepard can say, "Then open the arms, let the Crucible dock, and use it to end this."
The Illusive Man 's reply to this is, "I... I will."

The entire narration by the Shepard AI in the epilogue amounts to "I will do this and that", not "I have done this and that".

Shepard then goads The Illusive man shouting, "Do it!"
The Illusive Man reacts by saying, " I... know it will work."
Shepard continues to taunt him with, "You can't can you? They won't let you do it."
The Illusive Man protests, "No, I'm in control. No one is telling me what to do."

The Shepard AI is convinced that it is in control.

The Illusive Man continues his protests, "No. No! The two of you, so self-righteous. Do you think power like this comes easy? There are sacrifices..."

Apparently, Control supporters think it is easy.

Shepard: You sacrificed too much.
TIM: Shepard, I... I only wanted to protect humanity. The Crucible can control them. I know it can. I just...

Yes, and the Shepard AI also wants to protect humanity. But can it?

Imagine if an ending to Mass Effect 3 was The Illusive Man shooting Anderson and Shepard dead followed by a near identical narration to the Shepard AI. Just substitute The Illusive Man's voice for Shepard's voice. How confident would you be that the galaxy was truly safe? So why should we be sure that the galaxy is any better or worse under Shepard, who has an astonishing change in opinion on Control five minutes after opposing it? Factor in his use of a reaper device that makes no sense functioning as advertised. It has been established in Part II of this thesis that there is no reason whatsoever for the Reapers to construct a device that relinquishes their ability to pursue their intended goals. There is simply no way anything good can come of Control. It is a narrative and thematic nigh impossibility. Any cease-fire can only have been temporary. The Reapers would inevitably continue the harvest once the relay network was reestablished. Given the power of their forces such an interlude isn't detrimental to them and with the Citadel firmly in their control resistance is all but eliminated. The relays could have simply been a higher priority. They had to be fixed at some point anyway and this way they have more manpower to repair them vs. waiting until after the fighting is concluded. The writers perpetuate the indoctrinated perspective on the player even after the credits have rolled.


Eternal. Infinite. Immortal.
The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them.
Through his death, I was created. Through my birth, his thoughts are freed. They guide me now, give me reason, direction.
There is power in control. There is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy.

Here I'll end it with Shepard reiterating The Illusive Man's reaper induced views about controlling them. Not unsurprising that now he "understands" after his interaction with the reaper device. His "understanding" appears nothing more than the same erroneous self image we've seen before from the likes of Sovereign and Harbinger.

Created, and yet infinite? Simply multi-present and yet infinite? Immortal and yet killable? If he understands these words, why do they betray him?

Reapers are not infinite. Not individually or collectively. They have a beginning and they have all the time in the universe to find an end. Ask Sovereign. It made the same assumption about itself before it was destroyed.


Synthesis

"My mind is still my own... for now. But the transformation from ally to servant can be subtle."
"Sovereign's manipulating you and you don't even know it! You're already under its power!"

The epilogue slides are narrated by a reaper influenced EDI whose perceives the galaxy in the way the Reapers desire her to. Like the Control narrator, EDI speaks in terms of what will be; not what is. EDI seems sure that peace will reign across the galaxy in a grand utopia. Dr. Kenson also envisioned this Reaper ushered utopia while she was indoctrinated. Saren envisioned a grand destiny for organics brought on by synthesis while under the influence of indoctrination. How does EDI arrive at this conclusion if everyone's free will remains intact? Why would she assume anything will be different if no one has been fundamentally changed psychologically? She has to know something we don't, consciously or otherwise.

I conclude that free will as we know it, the "petty freedoms" that Saren points out, are removed from the equation. This can be taken as a good or bad thing. One could argue that we never had free will. We act and react according to chemistry. Mother Nature dictates our motivations and the illusion of choice is merely our predisposition to identify with the will of nature. Instead of maintaining conscious objectivity and knowing "this form requires chemical energy", we are identified with the natural world and think, "I am hungry". But in nature there is the survival of the fittest. Traits designed to make us successful in a dog eat dog world. There is fear, selfishness and anger. These are things which result in conflict and suffering. Instead of mother nature to guide our supposed free will the Reapers guide it in a way that is more appropriate for our level of advancement. Synthesis is therefore not an abrogation of free will. As there was never any genuine free will to begin with. Synthesis is therefore the replacement of an outdated pre-industrial psychology for a newer, more appropriate, psychology for the modern age. You will still have people who are certain that they are special and different than every other creature in the natural order. They will insist they do, in fact, possess genuine free will and will view the Reaper modifications as an abrogation of their supposed right to self-determinate. Ignorance is bliss. But some people will insist that ignorance is immoral. Ultimately, it is up to the player to decide if Synthesis is good or bad.

Of course, this all hinges on rather or not the cycle continues or the Reapers view the current situation as satisfactory. It has been established in Part III of this thesis that Synthesis is not the Reapers' ideal outcome. Is there a possibility that the Reapers will continue the cycle in a non-violent manner or work to reverse synthesis so that life, and the cycles, can continue as it was? Conceivably, yes, but there is nothing in the ending to substantiate the claim definitively. But it seems likely to me. For one, ALL life is synthesized. Therefore, evolution has been stifled throughout the entire galaxy. The cavemen of our day will forever be cavemen. The toad lizards of Omicron Persei 8 may never evolve into the space faring Omicronian race as their DNA is "perfected" in synthesis. Plants and beasts cease to adapt and change. The possible advent of immortality may result in a return to the cycles for the sake of population control. The only difference being that everyone agrees to become Reapers. That or all life is halted as is and no new life is ever allowed to come to fruition. Both are unappealing in my opinion. Where Control is definitely a continuation of the cycle, Synthesis is more vague in terms of exactly what happens next. Regardless, the writers perpetuate the indoctrinated perspective on the player even after the credits have rolled.

Overall, I would say that Destroy is Freedom, Synthesis is Enslavement and Control is Destruction. Refuse represents Defeatism which is the antithesis of the entire series.


Why deceive the player?

If Control and Synthesis ended like the Refusal Ending it would invalidate those endings for the majority of players. Refuse was only added because players requested the option (albeit with a different outcome in mind). The player must be allowed to believe in the endings or else everyone would simply reload and pick Destroy. It would defeat the effort put into making the endings. Shepard falling prey to indoctrination, although not the ideal conclusion, is still a narratively sound outcome. And in this way the writers keep those endings valid by having the epilogue continue from the indoctrinated perspective. Who would pick an indoctrinated ending otherwise? Not many.


Speculation for Everyone!

Note that the Reapers chose to present themselves in the form of the child Shepard encounters for a few brief moments on Earth. A child that no other person sees or interacts with. A child that, for some unknown reason, haunts Shepard's dreams instead of others he has lost who were actually close to him. Dreams full of whispers and oily shadows. The very fact that Starbinger is appearing in this form demonstrates that it is in Shepard's head. What other technology is capable of reading a man's mind in the Mass Effect universe? Not to mention its voice is overlaid with Shepard's own voice whispering each line into his subconscious. I doubt there was even an AI on the Citadel. It was just Harbinger or a collective of reapers speaking to Shepard via hallucination like Harbinger does at the end of the Arrival DLC. It claims to be a part of the Citadel yet it cannot control the Citadel relay, the mass relay network or any of the Citadel's systems. The only thing it can control is the reaper device in the docking chamber, but reapers controlling reaper devices regardless of distance is nothing new.

The final battle is against indoctrination. It is a battle of will and conviction. Some of us won. Some of you lost.

[The Twilight God]

The implications of the Leviathans

The Chaos and Order the Reapers allude to is in fact philosophical perspective afforded to them by the Leviathans. Chaos is a galaxy that they cannot control. Order is a galaxy that bends to their will. Because synthetics are not affected by Leviathan indoctrination their very existence and those who create them are "chaotic". Furthermore, the Leviathans designed the Crucible and it is a double edged sword. The Crucible grants the Leviathans everything they desire.
 

Hypothesis:

Order: Leviathan Control

The Leviathans utilize a method of organic-based quantum entanglement to forcefully take control of the mental processes and motor functions of other organic species. Ann Bryson asserts that she believes Leviathan is "entangling particles to stimulate neural activity. It uses the artifact to establish a connection, and then controls the mind of anyone near it." This is referred to as organic quantum entanglement. This hypothesis is based on the Rachni Queen's physiology. This capability has its limits. The Leviathans cannot fully control the entirety of a specie's population. A certain degree of freedom is maintained among a large enough population of thralls. This is evident in the fact that they cannot outright prevent their subjects from developing artificial intelligence. Leviathan claims that, "Before the cycles, our kind was the apex of life in the galaxy. The lesser species were in our thrall, serving our needs. We grew more powerful, and they were cared for. But we could not protect them from themselves."

Chaos: The Limitations of Leviathan Control

I hypothesize that Leviathan indoctrination, like Reaper indoctrination, only effects organics; their methods having no effect on synthetic life. As such, the Leviathans are incapable of controlling the body and minds of synthetic life forms. Organics create synthetic s to improve their own existence, but those improvements have limits. To exceed those limits, synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators. And they will continue to evolve and advance and surpass the Leviathans. If the entire galaxy comes to be filled with self-determinate life that cannot be bent to the will of the Leviathans, "chaos" ensues. The Leviathans enforced "order" upon the galaxy. Because of this threat the Leviathans directed their thralls to destroy their creations.

I notice on the wall painting at the dig site the people underneath the Leviathan are up in arms. They are attacking what appears to be a long limbed giant. I hypothesize that this humanoid which is larger and distinctly depicted as different from the organic is a synthetic life form. An "iron giant" if you will. Purely speculation, of course. However, the depiction the Leviathan shows Shepard in the dream realm is roses and butterflies , depicting happy people walking with children. It is obvious that the Leviathans, like the Thorian, do not value other sentient beings as anything but a means to an end. In this scene the Leviathan claims the "lesser races" were cared for, yet in the same conversation claims they Leviathans were above the concerns of the "lesser species". It is plausible that they would sacrifice them in a petty war against their creations once the tools were no longer worth the trouble. Leviathan says so itself that, "Every creature, every nation, every planet we discovered became our tools. We were above the concerns of the lesser species." The result is conflict, destruction, chaos. It is inevitable. The synthetics prevail against their creators and after which the Leviathans destroyed the synthetics before they reached a level in which they could challenge them. These events represented the first manifestation of the cycles. These are the conflicts the Intelligence would later be tasked to bring to an amicable end.

The Advent of the Cycles

The Leviathans cannot fully control the entirety of a specie's population. A certain degree of freedom is maintained among a large enough population of thralls. This means that synthetics will inevitably be created and the Leviathans will be unable to maintain control of the galaxy. I postulate synthetics are a natural part of galactic evolution. Synthetic life is the final manifestation of physical life. This phenomenon did not affect the Leviathans because other organics are their synthetic equivalent: Tools used to improve their existence. And given this instinctual culture of control, the concept of creating that which is outside the scope of that control did not exist prior to development of synthetics by mainstream organics. Like the Thorian, the Leviathans are an anomaly of nature. To prevent the synthetics from surpassing them the Leviathans developed the cycles; All species advanced enough to create synthetic life would be eradicated so that no synthetic race could surpass them, leaving the younger races alone to develop and take their place as thralls. Because the Leviathans would rather throw the baby out with the bath water than allow the chance that they could be supplanted, that there would be a galaxy that they could not dominate, a galaxy in which they would be mere observers on the sidelines. They saw synthetics as the end of everything they knew. However, the cycles were eventually deemed wasteful and inadequate. The timing between the demise of one species and the ascent of another was too long. Tribute would lessen. To solve this problem once and for all the Intelligence was created.

"They are only echoes. We existed long before."

On Thessia Vendetta claims that there is an inferred presence influencing each cycle which extends beyond the Reapers in the conversation in which it starts off saying, " Our studies of past ages led us to believe that time is cyclical. Many patterns repeat."
Shepard declares, "Like the Reaper attacks."
Vendetta responds, "And beyond. The same peaks of evolution, the same valleys of dissolution. The same conflicts are expressed in every cycle, but in a different manner. The repetition is too prevalent to be merely chance."
Liara later states, "We assumed the Reapers were responsible for the pattern".

This implies that the conversation is about something outside the scope of just the Reapers. Remember that according to the Catalyst the Reapers exist to serve as a solution to a problem. Vendetta is referring to the source of that problem.

Vendetta continues, "Perhaps. Though I believe the Reapers are only servants of the pattern. They are not its master."
Shepard inquires, "So who is the master?"
Vendetta replies, "Unknown. It's presence is inferred rather than observed. The only certainty is its intention... Galactic annihilation."

What we have to remember in all this is that Vendetta is not merely speaking about the harvests. He is speaking about the individual cycles themselves. That is, the events that transpire within the histories of each cycles' species prior to the return of the Reapers. Hence the "and beyond" comment.

This cannot refer to the Kid if we accept its claims. The Kid states that it embodies the collective intelligence of the Reapers. It even lumps itself in with them with words like "us" and "we". It would be like saying the Reapers are not the ones responsible for the pattern; the Reapers motivations are what is responsible for the pattern. The Reapers actions in no way infer an unknown motivation outside the observable actions of the Reapers themselves to explain their actions. Furthermore, under normal circumstances, why would the Intelligence instigate organic-synthetic conflicts prior to the harvest? It is implied that the Leviathans provoked the Rachni wars and who is to say they didn't provoke the Morning War? It is hypothesized that the Leviathans instigated the Rachni War to prepare them to fight the Reapers. Or, they saw the Reapers weren't coming and took things into their own hands.

The Dawn of Intelligence

The Intelligence was first created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life; to establish a connection. A connection? A link. A bond. To join together. The purpose of this bond was to formulate a means to incorporate synthetics into the Leviathans' thralldom. We know this as synthesis. I hypothesize that the synthetics resisted these attempts, comprehending the implications of becoming slaves: Reverting back to mere tools. And the organics resisted this as well for the same reason you or I would resist someone trying to force a surgical procedure on us. The Leviathan controlled governments, but not entire population. Individual resistance to their desires is still possible. The Leviathans would use their thralls to attempt to enforce this ideology, but war with synthetics and civil unrest among organics hindered their efforts. Therefore the Intelligence's efforts always ended in conflict. A new solution was required.

The Kid says, "We did what we were expected." And "And I welcome their involvement. We are only facilitating their request."

Leviathan says, " There was no mistake. It still serves its purpose."

When the Leviathans asked that the Intelligence solve the problem with conflict, they failed to understand that they were part of the problem themselves. The flaws of their organic reasoning could not perceive this. They lacked the foresight to understand that their destruction was part of the very solution they required. That is why the Leviathans were the first to be harvested into the first true reaper. Their destruction was the solution. They did not approve of this, but it was the only solution. However, not all of the Leviathans were harvested. Some of them avoided destruction. The Intelligence sought to complete what was started, to find and harvest the remaining Leviathans, but failed in this endeavor. The Leviathans continued to meddle in the affairs of organic civilizations, fearing that the advent of a synthetic lifeforms would bring about a day in which their own was surpassed as the apex. "Until the intelligence finds what it is looking for, the harvest will continue." The Harvests must continue until the Leviathans are found and eliminated.

"The Intelligence has one purpose: preservation of life. That purpose has not been fulfilled."

Its purpose is not being fulfilled and yet "It still serves its purpose". How is this reconciled? I speculate that the destruction of civilizations that advanced too far (i.e. old tools) was always a function of the Intelligence. The harvest, and creation of the reapers, is just a refinement. An attempt to preserve life. I believe that as the Intelligence studies life to prevent the need for the cycles, it continued to annihilated every failure per the Leviathans' desire.


The Crucible: Tool of the Leviathans

The Leviathan breaks eye contact with Shepard at the mention of the Crucible. This is typically a sign of deception. It then says, " We watched its construction before. It has never been completed. Those who have tried still fell victim to the harvest. Its outcome is unknown."

First of all, it had to have been completed at some point. It's outcome has to be known. Otherwise, the inclusion of the Citadel would not have taken place. Someone had to have used it at some point and realized it wasn't enough without the mass relays.

The Crucible accomplishes the Leviathans immediate goals. It aims to eliminate all synthetics in the galaxy, eliminating direct resistance to any play they make to regain their former glory. It destroys the relay network, putting organics at a logistical disadvantage. Recall that the relay network was created after the Leviathans were overthrown for the benefit of up-and-coming organics. Leviathan states, " It directed the Reapers to create the mass relays--to speed the time between cycles for greatest efficiency." If this is the case, and the mass relays are an Intelligence technology it stands to reason that the Leviathans' galaxy spanning empire utilized a different means of travel. Something akin to the hyper drive technology of the Star Wars universe. And most importantly it will be difficult for organic races to fight an enemy that can forcefully take control of an opposing force in a relatively short time. It will require both synthetics and organics to fight a effective war against them. Organics to breach their defenses and disable them. Synthetics to get close enough to engage them.

I hypothesize that the Leviathans have been using races within each cycle to construct the Crucible. It is a double edged sword. You eliminate the Reapers, however you make way for the Leviathans. The fact that the Leviathans do not reveal themselves and instruct organics to build the Crucible prior to the harvest is that they want to cycles' races weakened and exhausted when the weapon is deployed. It's also possible that another race came up with the original design and the Leviathans are the ones who instigate the adaptation which utilizes the Citadel.

"Over the cycles the thrall races were controlled, removing traces of our existence as we directed them to."

Note that Leviathan says "cycles" - plural. A cycle encompasses all the space faring races of an era. This indicates that they have been actively involved in the affairs of organics in numerous cycles after the Intelligence "betrayed" them and went on the harvest the advanced races of that time. Furthermore, I do not believe the Reapers are under any delusion that the Leviathans were all dead. The Kid is in no way surprised and the Reapers were after the Leviathan themselves beforehand. This is why the Reapers harvest, because the continuation of the Leviathans and their meddling demands it.

What do we have to look forward to?

Why are asteroid workers (i.e. the Leviathans) researching:
1.Turian pain thresholds psychosis. The Leviathans' abilities cause physical pain when applied aggressively (Shepard, Hadley, Ann). Planning on aggressive indoctrination of the Turians?
2. They are speaking about taking whole colonies collector style.
3. Evolutionary implications of human biotics.
4. Developing odd plants that are inconspicuous. The orbs aren't their only tools.
5. How weather effects the Hanar government. Political manipulations.
6. Estimating sixty days for global starvation on some world. Referred to as the merciful route?
7. There is a beta site that we never see in the DLC. People who are still thralls to the Leviathans.
8. Working on corrupted skin samples in sector E

Speculate!!

I'm beating the geth weren't destroyed because they aren't traditional artificial intelligences. When the Leviathans designed the Crucible nothing like the geth existed. It isn't designed to go after them. A ****** in their plans. I wouldn't be surprised if the next protagonist is a synthetic. A terminator like the guy in Terminator salvation. Possibly a new form of synthetic that is powered by chemical reactions. Organic parts, necessity to eat, emotional, etc.


Other interesting things:

Rather or not Starbinger is a Reaper(s) or a distinct entity is not proven in the Leviathan DLC. Only the existence of "The Intellegence" is mentioned by the Leviathans. And it never says, "Oh and by the way it's in the Citadel". Rather or not that "Intelligence" actually exists on the Citadel and is the thing Shepard converses with is another story. The mass relays were created after the advent of the Reapers, not before. And the Citadel is definitely not tailored to facilitate giant cuttlefish. It's the relay hub and a reaper nursery. So in actually it adds another level of iffiness to the Kid's claim to "live there", as it existed before the mass relay network, and presumably the Citadel, existed. Leviathan's race might have used a more Star Wars type FTL or space folding.

"The Intelligence" can be a form of quantum software (like a super geth) existing within all Reapers or any hardware it pleases, on the Leviathan home world away from any relays or not even be "in the field" anymore. It could be out in dark space at the location the Citadel relay would connect to (wherever the Reapers would wait in dark space). It's all speculative at this point.

Is it doing what the Leviathans said it's doing. Yes. Does that mean Synthesis is actually the ideal solution? No. Does it mean Control is now a rational choice? No. As I said before the DLC came out it doesn't really affect IT that much and that hasn't changed after seeing the full script. And what little does affect it is in favor of my views.

"No reason given when they turned against us. Only slaughter." Oh, so you didn't like that outcome? Wasn't expecting that? Reasonable response.

"There was no mistake. It still serves it's purpose." Huh? So you're OK with them doing what they did and continue to do?

"They are the enemy" But.. w-what?!?! Make up you mind!!! They either did bad or did good. They f'ed up or everything is proceeding as planned.

So is the middle comment just a result of pride? Not willing to admit that they screwed up due to a ridiculously overblown ego? Hmm? Something to think about.

Let's continue...

"The intelligence has one purpose: to preserve all life. That purpose is not being fullfilled." So IS it serving it's purpose or not? Make up your mind, Squidward...


"Until the Intelligence find what it is looking for the harvest will continue" It always struck me as odd that an organic race younger and technologically inferior than the Reapers could make a device (the Crucible) that the Reapers were incapable of making themselves. Another reason to cast doubt on synthesis being ideal seeing as they should have made their own "battery" and just tossed someone in. Clearly the Reapers had enough technical details to build devices that interacted with the Crucible (Control Console and Synthesis Array).

[The Twilight God]

Alright, per pm request I reposted the old posts that are in limbo and fixed the links in the first post to match the new site's links. Enjoy!

Edit: For some reason you may have to click a link, allow the page to load and then click it again. This new forum is odd.

[WizzyWarlock]

Awww....I miss this thread.

To this day I still think this is the most viable version of indoctrination theory we have. Yeah, it still needs the player to stretch the imagination, but nowhere nearly as much as the original endings or vanilla it.

And Twilight God was always a pleasure to talk to.

This is how I perceived the endings too, though I personally don't believe the Choice Chamber is a real place, I think it's more like a dream image of a choice being made. Instead of going up to meet the Kid, I think Shepard passes out (as you see in game) as he's about to touch the console. The meeting with the Kid and the Chamber is then like a dream sequence, where Harbinger is inside his head, shaping the dream and making the suggestion that he do something different with the control console.

 

Why I come to this conclusion is that it always bothered me that there doesn't seem to be any way of reaching the Chamber, or any evidence of how Shepard got there. He floats up on a platform that he 'just happened' to be laying on, then is outside in open space with nothing around him that could be perceived as an elevator of some kind. The floor is completely solid, there's no breaks in the design, so where is the platform he rose up on?

 

So I I think this is all just some dream, where he's being indoctrinated into making a different choice on the console. So when he picks Destroy, for example, he rises up and smacks a button, firing the Crucible. He's not actually firing at a tube. Note that he never stops approaching the tube, even as it starts exploding. I see this as his body moving forward outside the dream, to punch the button that activates the Crucible, the same for the other options except in a different style.

 

When I saw the breath scene I thought that he must still be down on Earth, so I came up with the idea of the beam actually being similar to the Geth Matrix, as I said in a different thread. However, as it's been confirmed that Shepard is on the Citadel in that scene (whats with the rebars then?) then I think only the Chamber is an actual dream/illusion. 

[The Twilight God]

yeah I'm just glad I found this theory
for me its the only thing that makes sense and with some headcanon its all good

If you don't like the ending and have the PC version the MEHEM is the official canon ending:)

http://forum.bioware...-reunion/page-1

[Ithurael]

This is how I perceived the endings too, though I personally don't believe the Choice Chamber is a real place, I think it's more like a dream image of a choice being made. Instead of going up to meet the Kid, I think Shepard passes out (as you see in game) as he's about to touch the console. The meeting with the Kid and the Chamber is then like a dream sequence, where Harbinger is inside his head, shaping the dream and making the suggestion that he do something different with the control console.

 

Why I come to this conclusion is that it always bothered me that there doesn't seem to be any way of reaching the Chamber, or any evidence of how Shepard got there. He floats up on a platform that he 'just happened' to be laying on, then is outside in open space with nothing around him that could be perceived as an elevator of some kind. The floor is completely solid, there's no breaks in the design, so where is the platform he rose up on?

 

So I I think this is all just some dream, where he's being indoctrinated into making a different choice on the console. So when he picks Destroy, for example, he rises up and smacks a button, firing the Crucible. He's not actually firing at a tube. Note that he never stops approaching the tube, even as it starts exploding. I see this as his body moving forward outside the dream, to punch the button that activates the Crucible, the same for the other options except in a different style.

 

When I saw the breath scene I thought that he must still be down on Earth, so I came up with the idea of the beam actually being similar to the Geth Matrix, as I said in a different thread. However, as it's been confirmed that Shepard is on the Citadel in that scene (whats with the rebars then?) then I think only the Chamber is an actual dream/illusion. 

 

 

I know man. I think when you read more into this theory you will find this will make a bit more sense of the ending. While I have shown how indoctrination can work in the other thread and how it cannot really work with IT as a dream. This theory was always one of my favorites. It doesn't clash - too much - with the codex and it seems like it could actually be happening.

 

If I am correct (and I am sure Twilight will help me on this) but this theory says everything is real and everything is happening. When you choose an ending the ending does really happen but it could be for the better or worse of the galaxy.

 

In the end though, while there are some issues I have even with this theory, I like it the most. And if it helps you enjoy the game I say go for it. But...seriously...don't praise bioware or supermac for creating this theory/interpretation. Thank Twilight God for it.