1238 réponses à ce sujet

[gorezeelar]

Wayning_Star wrote...

gorezeelar wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

gorezeelar wrote...

OK, so what was YOUR ending, OP? Did everyone in the galaxy die in a fire? How can you explain the refuse ending? Did Shepard just say "I give up"?

The Twilight God wrote...

Refusal
Shepard says, "No, I'm going to end this war on my terms."
The Catalyst replies, "Then you will die knowing you have failed to save everything you have fought for."
Shepard retorts, "I fight for freedom. Mine and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I die knowing I did everything I could to stop you."

Everything except actually stopping the Reapers, when the means to do so is right in front of you. The means to choose your own fate was right there. Instead, Shepard let the Reapers choose his and every organics' fate. Shepard is definitely indoctrinated here. No questions about it.

See? You indoctrinated theoriest always lead the series down to a gloom and doom path. So you're saying that the cycle goes on. That's is a big middle finger to Shepard and everyone who died trying to stop that from happen from ME1 up til now. Now that has to be the worse ending in the history of video game. 

So no, I am NOT indoctrinated. I know you probably say that truth hurts. Indulge me for a second... Have you ever considered that you are, in fact, actually not right?

I think I'm officially over the IT gig, it's totally open ended, that is the 'its no use' the game is fixed thing they seem to relish. IT boils down to some one trying to make some sort of coup name for themselves by undoing anything/other than failure of the ME trilogy? I could be wrong about it, but is sure seems that way.. anyway, i'm taking my bat a ball and going home on the IT stuff. Too cut'n dried for my taste..as is over fore it started..

Agree. Posted this so you know that you're noticed. Lol JK

[The Twilight God]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Shepard has no idea what the Crucible is capable of or how it even works. The Catalyst could easily tell our dying hero that Synthesis is the only option that can be performed while completely ignoring the other two. If he can lie, he's doing a pretty bad job of it.

Star child could tell me that synthesis is it and I would ignore him and look for the reason why the Crucible isn't firing. Star child would just have to cross his fingers and hope I didn't start shotting up everything around the docking point because I sure as hell wouldn't commit suicde because the reapers told me to. And by dismissing the destroy possibility he would have lost all credibility and there would be no way he could ever convince to even so much as listen to him.

Now that would be a stupid move on the part of the Star Child.

[The Twilight God]

Wayning_Star wrote...

their actions may be construed as evil, but they are not, as simple machines, they lack the sapience to construct a right from wrong programming protocol. If they did, they'd give up on the cycle independently, without extra user interfacing... Even lowly geth Legion could tell right from wrong when he defende that geth in the fields from it's quarian master creator... Cannot fit that into the IT very easily..or at all.

Rather they are simple machines is up for debate. You obviously believe whatever the StarChild tells you. Obviously, I don't. I think his whole story was a lie. It think it was just Harbinger trying to taslk his way out of destruction.

Here's something else Legion says about the Reapers: Dumb machines?

[zambot]

This is exactly why it is a good thing to finish the game with a low EMS and destroy the reaper base in ME2. If you actually accomplish very little, the StarKid only gives you the option to win the game.

Wait, what?

[The Twilight God]

Cheviot wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...
At no point did I ever say the last 30 minutes was a hallucination. Not once. I said the Star Child may have been a hallucination in the same way Shepard spoke with Harbinger at the end of Arrival. A hallucination in that nobody else would see it, but it's still real. The conversation between Shepard and the Reapers is actually taking place.

Harbringer's appearance doesn't seem to be a halluncination, it looks a lot like the appearance of Soverign at the beacon on Virmire.  Maybe Object Rho is projecting it?

It appears out of thin air and talks to you. Then disappears into thin air.

Back on the Normandy Dr Chakwas is chekcing Shepard out because he had indoctrination worries.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Good read OP, I enjoyed it thoroughly.

Modifié par pirate1802, 31 juillet 2012 - 02:27 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

comrade gando wrote...

lets just have you fighting reapers for 99% of the trilogy then change the goal at the last 10 minutes. if control and synthesis aren't indoctrination then idk what is.

It is called changing your objective according to the evolving situation. I picked synthesis and I'm lovin' it!

[The Twilight God]

Cheviot wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

And then woke up and stood around chatting it up with the Star Child for 10 minutes with no problem.

Except being doubled up in pain the whole time, yes.

Until he bursts into a sprint in Synthesis. Notice you left that part out.

And doubled over in pain does not equal I'm going to die any moment. I took a garden hoe to the head as a child. White towels were soaked completely red in blood. Didn't die. Know I guy that got his throat slit. Blood everywhere. didn;t die. Knew a girl who was in a armored vehicle than ran over an IED. Walked out doubled over in pain and bleeding. Survived. Rapper 50 cent took 9 bullets at once. Survived.

Cheviot wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

The CSD.

Ah yes.  Have you got any evidence for this thing existing in the game?

Yes. You shoot it to allow the Crucible to arm....

duh

[elegolas1]

cool i like it
it's the premise of the IT

[The Twilight God]

Wayning_Star wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Hey TWG, did it ever occur to you that the thing saying it's the Catalyst is not the Catalyst at all?

 
The actual catalyst is the Citadel. The Star Child was never the catalyst; just a poser. As I mentioned in my posts.
 

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Shepard is the real Catalyst.

Figuratively speaking. Yes.

wasting all the resources of an entire trilogy just to indoctrinate to control a population already beaten down by the impressive and violent assult from the reaper horde? They basically wasted their computer time, just to over power Shep to make it easier to harvest planet earth? Mean while, the rest of the MEU is being attacked by ground forces and such to carry out the indoctrination of Shep so they can waste more resources on the rest of the galaxy not needed because Shepard is the catalyst? Man those reapers programming is definitively messed up.. and the story of IT has hit critical convolution...

Do you know what "figurative" means?

[The Twilight God]

gorezeelar wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

gorezeelar wrote...

OK, so what was YOUR ending, OP? Did everyone in the galaxy die in a fire? How can you explain the refuse ending? Did Shepard just say "I give up"?

The Twilight God wrote...

Refusal
Shepard says, "No, I'm going to end this war on my terms."
The Catalyst replies, "Then you will die knowing you have failed to save everything you have fought for."
Shepard retorts, "I fight for freedom. Mine and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I die knowing I did everything I could to stop you."

Everything except actually stopping the Reapers, when the means to do so is right in front of you. The means to choose your own fate was right there. Instead, Shepard let the Reapers choose his and every organics' fate. Shepard is definitely indoctrinated here. No questions about it.

See? You indoctrinated theoriest always lead the series down to a gloom and doom path. So you're saying that the cycle goes on. That's is a big middle finger to Shepard and everyone who died trying to stop that from happen from ME1 up til now. Now that has to be the worse ending in the history of video game. 

So no, I am NOT indoctrinated. I know you probably say that truth hurts. Indulge me for a second... Have you ever considered that you are, in fact, actually not right?

Refusal is a dumb ending. Agreed.

You not liking what I post is not grounds for it being wrong. You don't have to believe it. Your belief isn't required. However, I have explained my case and provided evidence. You have simply stated "I don't like the implications of your evidence so I choose not to believe it." And that's fine. You're entitled to accept or deny whatever you choose.

[masster blaster]

You know I think you got the right idea Twilight God, but I don't think they can see what you and I see. So let them be. There is no point if they want to believe in what they see.

"Seeing is believing," but they won't have IT because " They say it will ruin ME3 more" Well bad Writing is worse than IT am I right. a lest we have some higher possibility on the endings, instead of people calling ME3 endings " Bad writing." In which case you don't, even understand what Bioware meant that there was not going to be a boss fight, well they lied because the boss fight was Indoctrination. Think about it, why else would Bioware not have a boss fight like all the games have/Me1 and 2 had. Because it's with the Player and what's the right thing to do.

[Tealjaker94]

Great job OP. This is quite clearly distinct from IT and the whole "it's a dream" thing. I think your view of the star child as a manipulator is very good and makes much more sense than traditional IT.

[MegaSovereign]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Great job OP. This is quite clearly distinct from IT and the whole "it's a dream" thing. I think your view of the star child as a manipulator is very good and makes much more sense than traditional IT.

I agree. I still don't think any interpretation of IT was actually intended by Bioware. Not bashing Bioware's writing team but even they aren't THIS good. It's just way, way too subtle.

[MegaSovereign]

I think I might do a playthrough with this interpretation of IT in mind.

[masster blaster]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I think I might do a playthrough with this interpretation of IT in mind.

Good luck. Hope you like it.

[Tealjaker94]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Great job OP. This is quite clearly distinct from IT and the whole "it's a dream" thing. I think your view of the star child as a manipulator is very good and makes much more sense than traditional IT.

I agree. I still don't think any interpretation of IT was actually intended by Bioware. Not bashing Bioware's writing team but even they aren't THIS good. It's just way, way too subtle.

Indeed. I think Bioware just wanted us to take the endings at face value, but this at least is interpretation rather than straw grasping at things in the game completely unrelated to the ending. 

[hanshotfirs]

I love this, wonderfully thought out and researched.

:-)

[Ausnuk]

What are we left with? We are left with those that believe and those that are satisfied.

This fight for Shepard and indeed your mind has not changed with the EC. Your choice still reflects Bioware original intent. You have still succumbed to the same viscous mental attack that Harbinger set upon you. You still have the internal struggle of what is the price for freedom. The endings give little away in that they still are clearly a dream of your own making, the last fleeting moment of peace before you lose it all to Harbinger. The destroy ending still holds the key to saving what is left of you. Still the only ending with the breathe scene. Why?

You have fought (played) this long battle over years. You have in this last journey (game) lost your home, friends, comrades and loved ones. You are only human. You are not invincible. In the last push (scence) of this epic battle you are at the very edge of your resolve. Standing before you is Harbinger. You run in what must seem like an impossible task but you go. The beam is within sight. Harbinger sees you and in an instance knows he can end this battle for you and take what it has seeked for so long, you’re very self. The beam strikes you (or does it). From here you are limited in your powers. Like the dream you had last night it had no more control. It had though one thing and that is no lasting effect on your mind. This dream you are having now will push you until only the most subtle of clues will give you the way out. Destroying that what you have fought (played) for all these years is the only way. Once you have seen that you awake, take one breathe and...

My Shepard and in some small way me is still on the ground in London about to stand up. I have endured up until this point the hell that the Reapers have set upon me and I will not go without exhausting every ounce of fight I have in me. . 


I truly believe that Biowares original intent pre-EC was to make you the gamer feel what indoctrination would be. Did they succeed in the mind blowing ending. No. What they gave the gamer was not enough to allow for a satisfying conclusion of the franchise. All interpretation aside (hell even mine) they came up with a brilliant ending but did not execute it. They made the EC to fill in the holes and make the masses happy. We that choose to voice our opinion on these forums do so because deep down we feel unfulfilled by it all in some way. I was content with the original ending up until the credits rolled and I did not get up to continue the fight after defeating Harbingers attempt at indoctrinating me. That is where they should of continued and we all would of thought WOW those guys are good now where harbinger so I can shot him between his genocidal eyes.
I hope that Bioware brings that DLC out. It would fix it all because in the end the IT theory the endings as they stand do not give us the chance to be the character we have played all these years.

[The Twilight God]

masster blaster wrote...

You know I think you got the right idea Twilight God, but I don't think they can see what you and I see.

They see it. They'd just rather not.  

[krasnoarmeets]

Cheviot wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...
At no point did I ever say the last 30 minutes was a hallucination. Not once. I said the Star Child may have been a hallucination in the same way Shepard spoke with Harbinger at the end of Arrival. A hallucination in that nobody else would see it, but it's still real. The conversation between Shepard and the Reapers is actually taking place.

Harbringer's appearance isn't a halluncination, it's something like the appearance of Soverign at Virmire.  Maybe Object Rho is projecting it?

Given that the asteroid on which object Rho was located was used to dive-bomb the relay, which went nova (more or less) that seems unlikely. Then again you're probably suggesting that the whole game is what Shep is experiencing through object Rho (*rolls eyes*). My Shep that chose destroy who didn't like the Alliance any more didn't complete the Arrival mission and still had the same conversation and the relay was destroyed by someone else. /Sigh

[dreamgazer]

Bill Casey wrote...

This is everything I've been saying for months...

Indeed.

[Applepie_Svk]

Ask yourself, what happen to Catalyst after synthesis or control ending ?

As you said he found a new solution, and that´s the problem he is still owner of solution as he was first time when he created Reapers. So it doesn´t matter if Shepard picked Control or Synthesis because Catalyst will be still somewhere out there observing his solution and waiting with finger on the button.I think that Catalyst is some kind of high advanced parasitic AI which found a way to merge organics with hardware for his own needs.

[The Twilight God]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Ask yourself, what happen to Catalyst after synthesis or control ending ?

As you said he found a new solution, and that´s the problem he is still owner of solution as he was first time when he created Reapers. So it doesn´t matter if Shepard picked Control or Synthesis because Catalyst will be still somewhere out there observing his solution and waiting with finger on the button.I think that Catalyst is some kind of high advanced parasitic AI which found a way to merge organics with hardware for his own needs.

The StarChild is just a repaer vision used to deceive and communicate with Shepard. If the Reapers are still around it is still around because it is the reapers. The Reapers seem to be organic minds, but something has changed them or there is some other truth that is never revealed.  Legion, who has touched there minds says they are ascended organic minds in immortal machine bodies. They aren't strictly AI and they certainly aren't just dumb robot drones. Look at indoctrination. Recall the Derelict Reaper...two guys sharing memories and feelings. That's not technology. That's supernatural stuff.



Their corporeal conduits to physical reality may be finished in Destroy but they are still "out there" in the nether worlds or whatever. Soveriegns converstion with Shepard paints them as otherworldly beings who exist in another plane of existence.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 31 juillet 2012 - 04:32 .

[Applepie_Svk]

The Twilight God wrote...


The StarChild is just a repaer vision used to deceive and communicate with Shepard. If the Reapers are still around it is still around because it is the reapers. The Reapers seem to be organic minds, but something has changed them or there is some other truth that is never revealed.  Legion, who has touched there minds says they are ascended organic minds in immortal machine bodies. They aren't strictly AI and they certainly aren't just dumb robot drones. Look at indoctrination. Recall the Derelict Reaper...two guys sharing memories and feelings. That's not technology. That's supernatural stuff.

I meant that Catalyst as Indoctrination is some kind of parasite, look at this stuff ....