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[teh DRUMPf!!]

Yeah, wiping them from the face of the galaxy and completely thwarting their motives can totally be seen as compromising with them.

 

What. You've imagined things about Green and Blue that are not supported anywhere but your head. Why stop at Red -- because you happen to prefer that option?

 

Only Refuse totally resists the Reapers. Were there any truth to any of these "theories," then that would be the way to go. Oh, and Control, as if (flying right in the face of all the evidence on this point) the Reapers want to be enslaved by Shepard. Instead, the theorists say that Destroy is actually the (only) correct answer, which just so happens to also be these theorists' preferred option of the four. So long as we're playing Sherlock, does anyone else sense the connection there?

[ImaginaryMatter]

What. You've imagined things about Green and Blue that are not supported anywhere but your head. Why stop at Red -- because you happen to prefer that option?

 

Only Refuse totally resists the Reapers. Were there any truth to any of these "theories," then that would be the way to go. Oh, and Control, as if (flying right in the face of all the evidence on this point) the Reapers want to be enslaved by Shepard. Instead, the theorists say that Destroy is actually the (only) correct answer, which just so happens to also be these theorists' preferred option of the four. So long as we're playing Sherlock, does anyone else sense the connection there?

 

The biggest problem I have with any kind of deception from the Catalyst is that there's always a definite 'right' answer that Shepard should prefer that the Catalyst does not. Like if the Catalyst has the ability to lie and is allowed such a wide degree of control over the ending stage, why would is it allowing any kind of choice at all -- especially when it has preferences?

[Alamar2078]

If the AI is shackled in some form or another that MIGHT explain why it's explaining things to you and giving you a choice.  If they'd have just made Starbrat be the Crucible [whose main purpose was to overwrite the Catalyst] then the pill would have been easier to swallow.

 

Even though there's no good ending to be had here I'm astounded at any number of ways to put lipstick-on-the-pig that weren't taken.

[The Twilight God]

What. You've imagined things about Green and Blue that are not supported anywhere but your head. Why stop at Red -- because you happen to prefer that option?
 
Only Refuse totally resists the Reapers. Were there any truth to any of these "theories," then that would be the way to go. Oh, and Control, as if (flying right in the face of all the evidence on this point) the Reapers want to be enslaved by Shepard. Instead, the theorists say that Destroy is actually the (only) correct answer, which just so happens to also be these theorists' preferred option of the four. So long as we're playing Sherlock, does anyone else sense the connection there?

Please stop lying about my position, HYR. I mean seriously, dude. It's been like 2 years. Your butt hurt should have healed by now.

We're not doing this, HYR. Been there. Done that. I kicked ass. I took names. It's settled. Everything is addressed in the thesis. Not going to sit here while you ignore the thesis, hurl ad hominems, erect straw man arguments and repeatedly pose questions that have already been answered multiple times. Neither you nor anyone else could find a single weakness in my thesis armor. The End.

[Ithurael]

[WizzyWarlock]

The biggest problem I have with any kind of deception from the Catalyst is that there's always a definite 'right' answer that Shepard should prefer that the Catalyst does not. Like if the Catalyst has the ability to lie and is allowed such a wide degree of control over the ending stage, why would is it allowing any kind of choice at all -- especially when it has preferences?

The Catalyst is just an illusion created by Harbinger trying to indoctrinate you. Indoctrination can't force you into a choice, we've seen this from Saren shooting himself in the head to avoid it. So given choices, they can try and persuade you (or 'suggest' as the codex states) into a different choice, but they can't take away a choice that's already there. It's a very strong suggestion, look how many people think Control/Synthesis is a viable option, but it's still only a suggestion.

[WizzyWarlock]

In the end though, while there are some issues I have even with this theory, I like it the most. And if it helps you enjoy the game I say go for it. But...seriously...don't praise bioware or supermac for creating this theory/interpretation. Thank Twilight God for it.

I don't know, I still think this has been Bioware's intention all along. We know their original ending involved Shepard being indoctrinated, but they said that didn't work. Who's to say that they just wrote a different type of indoctrination, where we're still in control of Shepard but not aware, as players, of the indoctrination? The thing that has me think this is intentional is the simple change in the eyes when making a choice. Someone had to purposefully go in and code those eye changes. Why? For a simple visual effect? I don't believe that. Those eyes changed for a reason and someone was asked to make it happen in the Bioware offices.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Catalyst is just an illusion created by Harbinger trying to indoctrinate you. Indoctrination can't force you into a choice, we've seen this from Saren shooting himself in the head to avoid it. So given choices, they can try and persuade you (or 'suggest' as the codex states) into a different choice, but they can't take away a choice that's already there. It's a very strong suggestion, look how many people think Control/Synthesis is a viable option, but it's still only a suggestion.

 

Actually, Indoctrination can when strong enough. When Shepard tells Saren to stop, the Turian can't. Another explanation is that Indoctrination makes the victim more susceptible to Reaper commands. Sovereign probably never said anything about Saren not offing himself. Also, we never hear Saren muttering something about a little boy Turian offering him enigmatic choices.

 

Besides no other Indoctrinated individual has ever experienced Shepard's flavor of Indoctrination. They emit energy waves that damage the brain, we've never seen illusion trickery. No one has ever even seen the kind of hallucinations Shepard is allegedly seeing. Also, Vendetta's Indoctrination detecting protocols never detect the taint of Indoctrination in Shepard.

 

Another thing about IT while I'm at it. It has the premise that Shepard has some sort of set psyche and that deviating from that leads to Indoctrination. This is completely antithetical with Shepard's roll as a dull player insert that's been established throughout the trilogy. For the choices, the justification for whatever solution Shepard makes is established by the player. Whatever metaphysical/symbolic whatever for why Control and Synthesis is highly subjective.

 

Also, what is the deal with the low EMS ending variants? Why does the Collector Base decision mean anything for why either only Control or Destroy are options? Like all the solutions the justifications for keeping or destroying the base are highly subjective.

 

I don't know, I still think this has been Bioware's intention all along. We know their original ending involved Shepard being indoctrinated, but they said that didn't work. Who's to say that they just wrote a different type of indoctrination, where we're still in control of Shepard but not aware, as players, of the indoctrination? The thing that has me think this is intentional is the simple change in the eyes when making a choice. Someone had to purposefully go in and code those eye changes. Why? For a simple visual effect? I don't believe that. Those eyes changed for a reason and someone was asked to make it happen in the Bioware offices.

 

Maybe because they knew Shepard's eyes were synthetic? That having them erode like regular tissue would be a plot hole?

[WizzyWarlock]

Actually, Indoctrination can when strong enough. When Shepard tells Saren to stop, the Turian can't. Another explanation is that Indoctrination makes the victim more susceptible to Reaper commands. Sovereign probably never said anything about Saren not offing himself. Also, we never hear Saren muttering something about a little boy Turian offering him enigmatic choices.

 

Besides no other Indoctrinated individual has ever experienced Shepard's flavor of Indoctrination. They emit energy waves that damage the brain, we've never seen illusion trickery. No one has ever even seen the kind of hallucinations Shepard is allegedly seeing. Also, Vendetta's Indoctrination detecting protocols never detect the taint of Indoctrination in Shepard.

 

Another thing about IT while I'm at it. It has the premise that Shepard has some sort of set psyche and that deviating from that leads to Indoctrination. This is completely antithetical with Shepard's roll as a dull player insert that's been established throughout the trilogy. For the choices, the justification for whatever solution Shepard makes is established by the player. Whatever metaphysical/symbolic whatever for why Control and Synthesis is highly subjective.

 

Also, what is the deal with the low EMS ending variants? Why does the Collector Base decision mean anything for why either only Control or Destroy are options? Like all the solutions the justifications for keeping or destroying the base are highly subjective.

 

 

Maybe because they knew Shepard's eyes were synthetic? That having them erode like regular tissue would be a plot hole?

Shepard says there's still time, you can stop this, and Saren replies that he could be right, there might be a chance.. But then Sovereign halts him, so as his way of stopping things, he shoots himself in the head. So he almost pulled up the willpower to stop it, but Sovereign was too strong, likely because of the Reaper implants.

 

I'm not sure about the illusions, but I remember in ME2 where you were going after the Reaper IFF, there's a console with two engineers talking about how they have the same memory, so using memories is obviously something they can do and has been documented.

 

Vendetta didn't detect Shepard as indoctrinated at that point because has only undergoing indoctrination. "Organics underogoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears.". There were many times he was waking up with a headache or you hear strange sounds.

 

All three games Shepard has been talking about destroying the Reapers. At the last moment, you're telling me it's logical for him to switch his approach, just because some glowing AI that is in control of his major enemy tells him it'll work? But he'll have to die in the process? Really?

 

Low EMS choices just means they've had less chance to complete the indoctrination attempt, so they can't push their own agenda onto you because you're not susceptible enough. If you kept the Collector Base intact in ME2 then you agree with what the Illusive Man was saying, that you can learn from their tech and so on, so Control is your option of choice while under indoctrination. Destroy it and you still just want the Reapers gone, regardless, so Destroy is the only option.

[Alamar2078]

@TwilightGod:  While I don't often say that a theory can't be proven wrong I would say that your [or similar] versions of events are pretty darned close to it.  If my reasoning is correct you can't really disprove a dream ; or faith ; indoctrination ; or similar sorts of things.  Usually [at best] you could try using Occam's Razon and go with what seems like the more likely / less complicated answer but that's still not proof.

 

On the other hand I TEND to believe that there was sheer incompetence in terms of how the overall arch of the story and specifically the ending was handled.  As silly as it sounds this is [IMHO] also a meta position that is hard to disprove.  For every [honestly good] point you bring up I can fall back on "it was rushed" ; "devs were lazy" ; "devs were clueless" ; blah blah blah.

 

Honestly I don't think either side should fight to prove to someone else's theory / opinion is wrong -- at least when the competing visions do not lend themselves well to being "proven" or "disproven".

 

YMMV

[Ithurael]

I don't know, I still think this has been Bioware's intention all along. We know their original ending involved Shepard being indoctrinated, but they said that didn't work. Who's to say that they just wrote a different type of indoctrination, where we're still in control of Shepard but not aware, as players, of the indoctrination? The thing that has me think this is intentional is the simple change in the eyes when making a choice. Someone had to purposefully go in and code those eye changes. Why? For a simple visual effect? I don't believe that. Those eyes changed for a reason and someone was asked to make it happen in the Bioware offices.

 

1- We don't know if the indoctrination segment was the ending. No where did bio ever say that. They did say that there was a segment where shepard was supposed to fall under reaper control and the player would lose control of shepard. This was later dropped as a gameplay element as it was too hard to implement. However, while it was dropped as a gamplay element it is kept in a cutscene element. The TIM scene. Everything the codex tells us is indoctrination is RIGHT THERE

 

2-There is no different type of indoctrination...there is only indoctrination lol.

 

3-Shepard was rebuilt and his/her eyes are probably synthetic/organic. As he/she is being dissolved in control/synth the synthetic parts will show. Hell, even in ME2 or ME3 when in full renegade your eyes looked like an indoctrinated husk (except they were orange or red)

 

4-Never mind the multiple posts I made in the other thread that literally tell you how indoctrination works...I am starting to think that no matter how much I reference the codex, the lore, or anything from the game. You will cling to 'It was all intended by bioware" for reasons unknown. The codex is very clear on how indoctrination works and doesn't work. If indoctrination could create vast illusion dreamscapes to try and trick people into becoming indoctrinated then the entire trilogy would be in jeopardy past the battle of the citadel if not before.

 

This (the IT Con) intepretation at least makes it seem like it is plausible and doesn't break the codex (bends to an extent but not break). And this was TTG that made this happen - not bioware.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Low EMS choices just means they've had less chance to complete the indoctrination attempt, so they can't push their own agenda onto you because you're not susceptible enough. If you kept the Collector Base intact in ME2 then you agree with what the Illusive Man was saying, that you can learn from their tech and so on, so Control is your option of choice while under indoctrination. Destroy it and you still just want the Reapers gone, regardless, so Destroy is the only option.

 

EMS is not related to time though. Doing the exact same missions but choosing the options that gain the least EMS would have the amount of time go by with differing levels of EMS, same with the multiplayer imports. In fact what little we can discern of time going by (Reapers invading systems) is completely independent of EMS. Again Shepard doesn't give a lot of justification for picking the Collector Base. The justification for why Shepard does anything is dependent on the player and there are several justification that I alone can think of to keep the base while not agreeing with TIM, that do not contradict what little Shepard has to say. Also the situation with the base and the ending are different on many levels.

 

All three games Shepard has been talking about destroying the Reapers. At the last moment, you're telling me it's logical for him to switch his approach, just because some glowing AI that is in control of his major enemy tells him it'll work? But he'll have to die in the process? Really?

 

Yes. People have to respond to new information and adapt all the time. I think the Catalyst is a dumb way to offer these solutions but if you suspect Control and Synthesis of being wrong because the AI offers it you have to include Destroy as well. Again the justifications for Control and Synthesis differ except for the single feature that they share with Destroy: All options stop the Reapers (Control in a way destroys the Reapers as well). Destroy similarly has Shepard changing his approach, as he now has to sacrifice Synthetics after talking about getting everyone through together (this 'approach' talk again is highly subjective). A lot of this stems back to what I said about Shepard being a dull player insert. Saying Shepard has been a supporter and only a supporter of X idea is utter nonsense. You're basically importing your own subjective ideas on what Shepard believes to everyone else.

 

Vendetta didn't detect Shepard as indoctrinated at that point because has only undergoing indoctrination. "Organics underogoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears.". There were many times he was waking up with a headache or you hear strange sounds.

 

Headache + weird sounds do not necessarily equal Indoctrination. Shepard is facing stress and those are both symptoms. Perhaps you are right, I doubt it but it's possible. Let's crack open the dictionary though. When you say someone is 'undergoing' surgery they are currently in surgery, like they're under the lights, on the bed, and the scalpels are at work. Indoctrination is not a yes or no state, instead being more like a gradient. At the onset of Indoctrination it probably has very little effect on the victim as the Indoctrination is much weaker than the victims own established set of principles. Over time that changes and as the Indoctrination gets stronger the victim moves up the list of symptoms. For IT Shepard is pretty far up that list of Symptoms.

 

Shepard says there's still time, you can stop this, and Saren replies that he could be right, there might be a chance.. But then Sovereign halts him, so as his way of stopping things, he shoots himself in the head. So he almost pulled up the willpower to stop it, but Sovereign was too strong, likely because of the Reaper implants.

 

The main thing is that Sovereign forced Saren to do something.

[BioWareMod03]

Let's let old threads sleep.