1238 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Goose]

Considering that the Catalyst can turn off the
Crucible if he deems that you are unwilling to make a choice,

It could have been Reapers blowing up stuff.

Also the whole analysis can be summed into ''everything what is against my ideas is a lie/hallucination''. Pretty sure, that even if Bioware actually said that Catalyst speaks only truth, everybody still would be considered this to be a clever trick.

[clennon8]

Life is headcanon. /deep

[Ranger Jack Walker]

[The Twilight God]

PhantomGinger wrote...

Sorry EDI, and sorry Geth. I'm not taking any chances.

Destroy is the only ending that requires such a sacrifice. The rest don't because they need to look better. The writers used this to draw people to the shiny options. The player forgets that they are dealing with the Devil. And instead focus on what THEIR ENEMY is marketing as a the prettiest and forgeting that it is THEIR ENEMY. Nothing has changed whatsoever to making trusting anything the reapers say trustworthy. It's good stuff. I like it. People say, "The Cricible changed it!". How do you know this? Because the REAPERS SAID SO?????  The Bible is 100% based on fact... because the Bible says so!!! Same logic.

People don't like the idea that they were tricked. That's why so many people want to believe in the Catalyst so bad. Even though everything it says in 10 little minutes is outweighed by 119 hours and 50 minutes of conflicting information. Keeping the player indoctrinated after the game is over is the only way to maintain the legiitmacy of the writers intended endings. It is the only way to keep people from simply avoiding the indoctrinated endings.

[Genetic Destiny]

Lonsecia wrote...
Secondly, if the Catalyst isn't the child, how was Shepard ever going to figure out how to get the beam to fire? Take the child away from the endings and you have a barely-alive human, bleeding heavily and all s/he sees ahead is a beam, and two pillars in different lighting. There's no actual connection that can be made that says 'right, I see what I need to do: shoot this pillar here in the blue light and that'll make things work' Likewise there's no logic to Shepard thinking jumping into the beam would do anything. The closest to an actual practical activation is the Control console.

The Catalyst didn't have to look like the kid. It could've appeared as some faceless hologram and explain the situation.

[The Twilight God]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Without metagaming, you really have no reason to trust the Catalyst, and certainly have no reason to choose control or synthesis. But I suppose this is for another topic.

zambot wrote...

This is exactly why it is a good thing to finish the game with a low EMS and destroy the reaper base in ME2. If you actually accomplish very little, the StarKid only gives you the option to win the game.

Wait, what?

Yeah, this is what really baffled me about IT after metagaming. Considering that the Catalyst can turn off the Crucible if he deems that you are unwilling to make a choice, I really don't know what the Catalyst's motive is. It just doesn't make much sense. IT doesn't quite explain it, but taking it face value also seems rather ridiculous.

It doesn't turn off the Crucible. It turns off the synthesis array.

Note: CSD = "Crucible Suppresion Device" (the thing you blow up to allow the Crucible to arm itself in Destroy ending)

The Twilight God wrote...

8. If these are new possibilities that have just now become a reality why is there a walkway leading up to the synthesis energy beam? And why is this organic-synthetic transmogrifying beam technology already prepared and ready to go considering the very possibility just came into existence moments earlier? Many people presume that the beam is generated by the Crucible. This is not true. In fact, if you choose Refusal the Catalyst shuts it down which signifies that the synthesis beam is not a function of the Crucible (If the Catalyst can shut down the Crucible itself the CSD would not be necessary). Choose Destroy and that synthesis beam shuts off when the Crucible arms itself and then the Crucible charges up its own separate energy release. But when you choose Synthesis the current beam gets an additional energetic envelope and the Crucibles energy amplifies it. Choose Control and the synthesis beam also does not shut down before or after the Crucible’s energy extraction initiates.

I too thought that the beam was the Crucible's docking connection. Which then made it even weirder because why would that be able to synthesis people.  But when I looked at all the endings the evidence says it's not. It's the Catalyst's doing.

If the Crucible is a generator, that beam is a Citadel power cord plugging into it.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 31 juillet 2012 - 03:00 .

[Aquarius87]

Very good read, thank you !

I was wondering about a lot of things you wrote down here.
Would have started a post myself, but you put it down far more eloquently than I ever could

[Arian Dynas]

SMichelle wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

destroy was the only option we had in the beginning...crucible changed that...and No, I am not indoctrinated...you damn ITers...that $h!t isnt real...

Shh....shh...it will be okay.  The ITers can't hurt you here.  This is a safe place. 

We don't like or want to hurt people.

Really, this just kills me.

We're not a cult, we're not a religion, we aren't some bunch of crazy conspiracy fanatics who think the government is putting mind control drugs into the water.

We're a bunch of people who looked at some weird **** going on in a videogame and thought "Hey, something ain't right here. I wonder why. Maybe it's like Inception?"

Everything in the OP is exactly what Indoctrination THEORY (Yes, THEORY, as in something that is not proven, but is based upon a hypothesis and supported by observation and logical deduction.) bases itself on. We aren't just taking a bunch of little things that could just as easily be little glitches and claiming "OFMGWTF MUST BE INDOTRINATONZ!" there's a bit of that, but it's mostly going; "Hey, that's really weird, and clearly intentional. Do you think it might be that they're trying to tell us something is not right here? What's the best explanation for that? Indoctrination? Does he have all the symptoms Bioware clearly laid out for us from past experience?"

People say we're based soley in wanting to deny reality and comfirmation bias this, logical fallacy that.

The fact is, I am a pretty big stickler for logic, I don't ascribe to conspiracy theories, I'm not paticularly religious, and I'm a big ol fan of the scientific method. If there was no logical reason to follow IT, I for one,(can't speak for everyone of course) would not. When we look at our evidence, we are pretty much the people who rip it apart the most. We consider things first before we throw them out, but if it looks pretty shaky, there's no reason to enter it into the data.

If we only wanted to deny reality, we'd stop playing the ending, not subject ourselves to it multiple times searching for weird little inconsistencies. If we wanted to deny that the ending really is WYSIWYG just because we didn't like it, we would have already written our fanfiction endings, or headcannoned it the way we wanted to, or just given up on the franchise entirely and gotten over it by now.

I would like to be happy with the Extended Cut as it is, really I would. I would love the whole issue settled, the matter done, everyone can go on being happy with the epic conclusion to Shepard's story.

But the thing is, that's not what happened.

Control, proven wrong not minutes before. In fact, do it right and you can prove TIM so wrong he shoots himself in the head for it. Why would you do a 180 on that, based solely on the word of a being who basically admits he is a Reaper? A being who basically says; "Oh yeah, that whole war of extinction thing? Yeah, that was on me, sorry guys."

As much as people say it's beautiful and wonderful, Synthesis spits in the face of Mass Effect. We saw through three games the myriad ways in which Saren and Synthesis are so dramatically wrong. We see throughout most of ME3, and both of the other games where the Reapers are, plainly and simply pure evil. They don't care for others, in fact, they're disdainful and hateful of us.

Claiming that they do what they do for some altruistic reason does not excuse what they have done; war crimes capable of making Hitler (to invoke Godwin's Law here.) and his cronies look like playground bullies by comparison.

But, maybe the reason I give Synthesis the queer eye, is simply because I don't believe in utopias.

But I suppose, either way, thanks to the OP for this "Indoctrination Theory Lite"

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 31 juillet 2012 - 03:21 .

[shepdog77]

Arian Dynas wrote...

We're not a cult, we're not a religion, we aren't some bunch of crazy conspiracy fanatics who thing the government is putting mind control drugs into the water.

But they are. 

It's not a conspiracy, it's fact.

Modifié par shepdog77, 31 juillet 2012 - 03:22 .

[Arian Dynas]

shepdog77 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

We're not a cult, we're not a religion, we aren't some bunch of crazy conspiracy fanatics who thing the government is putting mind control drugs into the water.

But they are.

...

*sigh*

[shepdog77]

Arian Dynas wrote...

shepdog77 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

We're not a cult, we're not a religion, we aren't some bunch of crazy conspiracy fanatics who thing the government is putting mind control drugs into the water.

But they are.

...

*sigh*

Seriously, it's not a conspiracy.  I advise you to watch the entire thing, and don't just dismiss it.

[stephen316]

Shockingly well thought out, incredibly well put together thoughts. Applaud OP's effort, and incredibly intelligent insight.

[TSA_383]

shepdog77 wrote...

Seriously, it's not a conspiracy.  I advise you to watch the entire thing, and don't just dismiss it.

Not bad, but not imaginative either

I rate you 4/10 on the troll scale.

[shepdog77]

TSA_383 wrote...

shepdog77 wrote...

Seriously, it's not a conspiracy.  I advise you to watch the entire thing, and don't just dismiss it.

Not bad, but not imaginative either

I rate you 4/10 on the troll scale.

I'm not trolling, but think what you will.  Go ahead and drink city water, while I'll drink my crystal clear well water.

[Arian Dynas]

shepdog77 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

shepdog77 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

We're not a cult, we're not a religion, we aren't some bunch of crazy conspiracy fanatics who thing the government is putting mind control drugs into the water.

But they are.

...

*sigh*

Seriously, it's not a conspiracy.  I advise you to watch the entire thing, and don't just dismiss it.

I did.

Aside from the fact that I was sighing far more at your attempt at mockery, the guy who made this video forgot that natural things can kill you just as easily as artificial ones, and that salt is made from an explosive metal and a poisonous gas.

So by his logic, we should be worrying about salt too.

Oh and hydrogen, an explosive gas, combines with oxygen to create water. Yet water has none of the properties of hydrogen gas. Huh. It's almost like you would need to be a chemist to figure this stuff out.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 31 juillet 2012 - 03:32 .

[shepdog77]

Arian Dynas wrote...

shepdog77 wrote...

Seriously, it's not a conspiracy.  I advise you to watch the entire thing, and don't just dismiss it.

I did.

Aside from the fact that I was sighing far more at your attempt at mockery, the guy who made this video forgot that natural things can kill you just as easily as artificial ones, and that salt is made from an explosive metal and a poisonous gas.

So by his logic, we should be worrying about salt too.

Oh and hydrogen, an explosive gas, combines with oxygen to create water. Yet water has none of the properties of hydrogen gas. Huh. It's almost like you would need to be a chemist to figure this stuff out.

Yeah, I don't take everything he says as fact, but I'd rather have clean water than fouled up fluoridated water, because I drink A LOT of water.  Hence why I get it from my relatives natural well.

And this is terribly off topic, sorry to the OP.

Modifié par shepdog77, 31 juillet 2012 - 03:35 .

[TSA_383]

shepdog77 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

shepdog77 wrote...

Seriously, it's not a conspiracy.  I advise you to watch the entire thing, and don't just dismiss it.

I did.

Aside from the fact that I was sighing far more at your attempt at mockery, the guy who made this video forgot that natural things can kill you just as easily as artificial ones, and that salt is made from an explosive metal and a poisonous gas.

So by his logic, we should be worrying about salt too.

Oh and hydrogen, an explosive gas, combines with oxygen to create water. Yet water has none of the properties of hydrogen gas. Huh. It's almost like you would need to be a chemist to figure this stuff out.

Yeah, I don't take everything he says as fact, but I'd rather have clean water than fouled up fluoridated water, because I drink A LOT of water.  Hence why I get it from my relatives natural well.

And this is terribly off topic, sorry to the OP.

Natural wells =/= clean.

If you actually want clean water get a reverse osmosis filter.
We plugged one into the mains water here and it went brown from all the peat 

Anyway this is waaaaaay off-topic 

[The Twilight God]

Lonsecia wrote...

I have a few queries:

Firstly, why if the Synthesis ending is supposed to be the ideal one for the Reapers, is it the one that requires the most effort to unlock on the part of the player? If destroy is the only true victory, why is it the one you can get with the lowest EMS? It'd seem more practical to make the actual Crucible doing its job as something for the people putting in the effort.

First things first. Low EMS destory is NOT the same as high EMS destroy. Low EMS destroy is NOT a good ending. Feel more like a desolate wasteland with the galaxy pretty being busted back to pre-space flight. No reapers, sure. But also not much of anybody else either. Low EMS control on the otherhand has no major differences. Only the Normandy's condition is different.

The Crucible's capabilites are determined by how much damage it has taken before docking. Its potential is diminished if you have a low EMS as the reaper damage it as it is docking.

So if you have the reaper heart (power source) it has enough for Destroy (albeit the ****ty version).
 
If you have the reaper brain it has the processing power for the control console to work, but not enough power to destroy. Note that the low and high EMS Controls are pretty much identical. It would seem that Control is not very dependent on the Crucible's power output.  

There is no low EMS synthesis so synthesis always plays out the same. Synthesis is synthesizing nanotech out of thin air and imbedding it into everything. Essential making matter out of energy. That would take optimal power. This is why synthesis requires a high EMS because the Crucible must be undamaged. Same goes for high EMS Destroy.

Lonsecia wrote...

Secondly, if the Catalyst isn't the child, how was Shepard ever going to figure out how to get the beam to fire? Take the child away from the endings and you have a barely-alive human, bleeding heavily and all s/he sees ahead is a beam, and two pillars in different lighting. There's no actual connection that can be made that says 'right, I see what I need to do: shoot this pillar here in the blue light and that'll make things work' Likewise there's no logic to Shepard thinking jumping into the beam would do anything. The closest to an actual practical activation is the Control console.
 

Well, the control console is activated by the StarChild. So it wouldn't even be on. And I'm betting after the first jolt Shepard wouldn't be touching that again.

To answer you other questions: the process of elimination. What would you have done? The Crucible was supposed to fire automatically. Something is therefore preventing that. Is it so hard to imagine looking at some pre-frabricated crap all around the docking point and thinking... "maybe this crap is interferring with it"? And start shooting stuff and biotic warping it away? If you were the Reapers would you cross your fingers and just hope Shepard doesn't figure it out. Would you underestimate Shepard? Bleeding and limping doesn't equal incompetent and useless.
Furthermore, they now have an opportunity to use the Crucible for their own ends. They just need a patsy.

Lonsecia wrote...

I'm not saying this is a flaw with IT, per se. I'm saying it's a flaw with the endings as they stand. I simply don't know of anyone who'd shoot at something to make it work (outside of a comedy or an insanely stupid individual). I only ask here because you're framing such facts within the IT arc and so I'd like to know your take on these.

All the stuff he's shooting isn't the Crucible. It's on the Citadel. The Crucible is hovering overhead. You must remember that the control and synthesis interfaces were made into the Citadel just in case the Crucible ever made it. Same goes for the Crucible Suppresion device.  It's their plan B in case anyone ever made it that far. This indicates that the Reapers were always aware that the Crcuble was meant to dock with the Citadel. So some other cycle had to have gotten close for them to decide to make those additions just in case.

Without the Crucible Suppression Device the Crucbile would have automatically triggered destroy. Once you blow it up that's exactly what happens: It arms and fires without any direct input from Shepard.

Lonsecia wrote...

Basically I mean that IT can only have the endings work with the child always there, otherwise it's a dead-end. No child, no explanation on how to activate the beam. But having the child immediately (in the IT world) means that Shep is being coerced.

Don't need the child. Give yourself some credit. You're not going to tell me that every time you reach a roadblock in life and have nobody to tell you what to do you just stand there until somebody comes along to direct you.

[paxxton]

Whatisthaalabou?

[Zso_Zso]

OK, suppose OP is right, the "Catalyst" (star brat) is trying to lure Sheppard to make the synthesis choice confirming his indoctrination.

But wait! Why does the catalyst even need Sheppard to be indoctrinated ?
Since the synthesis beam is already there, the crucible does not fire the destruction wave due to the disabling device, and the Catalyst can activate it any time with or without Sheppard, then why bother trying to indoctrinate him ?

I see your point about not believing the master-controller of the greatest enemy of the whole galaxy, but I still do not understand the whole point of the 3 choices!

If in reality, Sheppard is still lying down in London near the beam knocked down by Harbinger's near-miss shot, then what difference does it make what "decision" he makes in his hallucination ?

If he chooses destroy, and he is still down there in the ruble taking a final breath at the end of the Destroy ending -- meaning according to IT that he never was on the citadel, then who got up there and opened the arms for the crucible to dock ?

Sorry, it is a good effort, I would say it makes more sense than taking the endings at face value, but it still does not satisfy me. I still see a major logic error.

[The Twilight God]

Cheviot wrote...

The designers of the Crucible knew about the Catalyst, they designed the Crucible with the Catalyst in mind.

The Twilight God wrote...

The Star Child establishes itself as the Catalyst, even though that is mere a codename the Protheans used to hide the fact that the Citadel is the final piece of the equation. It only knows about the term "catalyst" from pulling the information out of Shepard's mind, just as it has pulled the image of the boy out of Shepard's mind (and probably put it in there to begin with). The reason for claiming it is the Catalyst is to appear to be a part of the Crucible equation. However, the Star Child is not. The Crucible never needed the Star Child to do anything. In fact, if not for the Star Child's Crucible Suppression Device (CSD) the Crucible would have armed itself immediately after it docked with the Catalyst (i.e. the Citadel).

The Twilight God wrote...

1. The Catalyst's first lie? "I am the Catalyst".

Shepard replies, "I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst?"
The Star Child answers, "No, the Citadel is part of me."

The Catalyst is just a designation the Protheans used to hide the fact that it was the Citadel. The Catalyst terminology was obviously taken out of Shepard's head and then used by the Star Child. Just like the image of the little boy was taken out of Shepard's head. Granted, the Reapers probably put that boy in his head in the first place. How else would it even know to refer to itself as the Catalyst?

Note that the Crucible never needed the "Star Child". The Crucible needed the Citadel. It is the "Star Child" who needs the Crucible to make its own agenda a reality. The Catalyst is, in fact, the Citadel; Not the supposed AI construct taking the form and voice of a child. We will go into this later in this thesis. For familiarities sake I will continue to refer to the Star Child as "the Catalyst".

Cheviot wrote...

There's no in-game evidence of this.  In fact, if you have a low enough EMS and destroyed the Collector Base then Destroy is the only "choice" given.  Where's your "suppression device" then?

 You still have to blow it up... *facepalm*

Are you serious or just trolling?

Modifié par The Twilight God, 31 juillet 2012 - 03:59 .

[The Twilight God]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Nice Headcanon OP. Since everything you say is based on interpretation, it's head canon.

It's based on in-game facts, but you're entitled to accept or deny whatever you like.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

zambot wrote...

This is exactly why it is a good thing to finish the game with a low EMS and destroy the reaper base in ME2. If you actually accomplish very little, the StarKid only gives you the option to win the game.

Wait, what?

This ^

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Zso_Zso wrote...

OK, suppose OP is right, the "Catalyst" (star brat) is trying to lure Sheppard to make the synthesis choice confirming his indoctrination.

But wait! Why does the catalyst even need Sheppard to be indoctrinated ?
Since the synthesis beam is already there, the crucible does not fire the destruction wave due to the disabling device, and the Catalyst can activate it any time with or without Sheppard, then why bother trying to indoctrinate him ?

I see your point about not believing the master-controller of the greatest enemy of the whole galaxy, but I still do not understand the whole point of the 3 choices!

If in reality, Sheppard is still lying down in London near the beam knocked down by Harbinger's near-miss shot, then what difference does it make what "decision" he makes in his hallucination ?

If he chooses destroy, and he is still down there in the ruble taking a final breath at the end of the Destroy ending -- meaning according to IT that he never was on the citadel, then who got up there and opened the arms for the crucible to dock ?

Sorry, it is a good effort, I would say it makes more sense than taking the endings at face value, but it still does not satisfy me. I still see a major logic error.

No, the OP is saying that Shepard has physically reached the Catalyst's chamber. What's happening is real, and all of the choices are there. But destroy is the only choice that actually accomplishes something.

[Lord Goose]

I recently completed Rannoch in my Renegade playthrough. To quote.

Conversation when Reaper signal base discovered.

Legion demonstrates Reaper's upgrade.

Raan: That's a fully evolved AI.
Legion: Yes. We do not agree with goals of the Old Machines. But we find this growth... beautiful. Indicative of life.
Shepard (Renegade option "No"): Sure, they are more complex. But saying they are alive... ?
Legion: They have evolved.
Shepard: They were upgraded.
Legion: And they will die for it.
Admiral Raan: They allied with the Reapers.
Legion: To save themselves from you.
Shepard: Whatever the cost, they allied with the Reapers.
LegionL Shepard Commander, we worked with you...
Shepard (Renegade interruption): And I appreciate that. But the geth are not alive. They are machines. Machines hacked by the Reapers and they need to be shut down.

Seriously, if Catalyst is trying to persuade Shepard into taking anything than Destroy, why they use machines as argument? Especially, if that is the same kind of Shepard, who can put bullet into Mordin back, doom krogan race and use them as cannon fodder, and lost 3/4 of his/her squad to kill some Batarian slaver? That kind of Shepard who can easily make sacrifices, and willingly accept ruthless calculus of war?

If he is really doing it, Catalyst is stupid. Obviously too stupid for synthetic Machiavelly as all try to paint him.

Yeah, and it is also possible to have geth killed before that. I'm not even going with it.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 31 juillet 2012 - 04:19 .