50 réponses à ce sujet

[bas273]

Thanks for the info Jack-Nader!
I've started a new DW character (Human Noble, Warrior class). Is a DW Warrior truly stronger than a DW Rogue?

And shouldn't I put some points in Cunning?

Modifié par bas273, 20 décembre 2009 - 04:36 .

[swk3000]

It strikes me that the build given above is great for a character who runs in and fights face-to-face. However, a Dual Wielding Rogue has the ability to backstab. A backstab is a hit that triggers while you're in the black portion of the red circle you see on the ground an enemy is standing on. Backstabs actually inflict more damage than a regular attack.



The reason Rogues are generally used for Dual Wielding is because of fact that Rogues have access to several talents that affect backstabs:



* Combat Movement - Widens the black portion of the circle, so you can get into a backstab position more easily. You'll still do more damage from directly behind an enemy, but you can get backstabs from the side, as well.



* Coup de Grace - If an enemy is stunned or paralyzed, any attack the rogue makes against them is an automatic backstab.



* Lethality - Daggers get their damage factors from 2 sources: Strength and Dexterity. With Lethality, Cunning is used for Strength if it's higher.



* Stealth - Allows you to get into position to get a backstab on an unwary opponent. A great tool for dealing with Mages. Also, if you get Combat Stealth, you can activate Stealth in the middle of battle, dropping threat and allowing you to get into position for another Backstab.



* Exploit Weakness - This is an ability in the Assassin line. It's a passive ability that increases the damage inflicted by backstab attacks. The amount of the increase is tied to your Cunning score. It works really well with Lethality.



* The Tainted Blade - This is gotten from Warden's Keep. It works like Exploit Weakness in that it adds damage based on Cunning, but it's not limited to backstabs. However, it inflicts about 10 damage every second. Also, if you rely on Stealth, using this ability will cancel Stealth. Whether it's worth it or not is up to you.



* Momentum - This skill drastically increases your attack speed. Backstabs are nasty. Momentum-enhanced backstabs are just evil. Note that if you have a Mage who uses Haste, having this skill active will actually cause you to attack more slowly than normal, instead of more quickly.



* Dirty Fighting - In combination with Coup de Grace, this means automatic backstabs.



* Riposte - Like Dirty Fighting, but it inflicts damage as well as stuns, so it softens them up for you.



Personally, I like a Dual Wielding Rogue much better than I like a Dual Wielding Warrior, but that's me.



@Jack-Nader: Mind pointing me to this thread where you proved that a Dual Wield Warrior is better than a Dual Wield Rogue?

[bas273]

With Dual Striking, backstabs and critical hits are no longer possible but your dps increases. So perhaps that's why Jack-Nader is suggesting a DW Warrior.

Monumentum and Riposte are also available to Warriors. A DW Templar/Champion can be quite deadly.

I'm still wondering what's better though, a DW Rogue or DW Warrior (if you look at DPS).

[swk3000]

I don't like Dual Striking, as my current Rogue deals all of his damage through backstabs. Even if he didn't, the inability to get Critical Hits is, to me, not worth it.

[bas273]

DW Warrior vs DW Rogue thread:
http://social.biowar...66/index/247078
It seems Berserker is the way to go (Berserk talent).  Champion is also useful (WarCry).
I think a Rogue has a higher dps but the Warrior can serve as the main tank. On the other hand, a Warrior can wear Massive Armor which requires 38+ Strength.

Modifié par bas273, 20 décembre 2009 - 05:21 .

[swk3000]

Alright. Thank you for the link. Turns out that in a pure DPS role, Dual Wield Warriors are better.

[GilgameshXD]

swk3000 wrote...

Alright. Thank you for the link. Turns out that in a pure DPS role, Dual Wield Warriors are better.

And how did you end up at that conclusion?

[themaxzero]

There is also mod on Dragon Axe nexus that fixes up a lot of DW bugs. Also includes a fix for blend animation problems with Dual Striking.



http://www.dragonage...file.php?id=337



Keep in mind the the Dual Striking whiff fix makes DWing extremely strong.

[swk3000]

GilgameshXD: I read the link in the post above mine.



themaxzero: I'm playing on the 360, so I can't use any Mods.

[GilgameshXD]

swk3000 wrote...

GilgameshXD: I read the link in the post above mine.

themaxzero: I'm playing on the 360, so I can't use any Mods.

You might want to read it again then since there is nothing there that actually shows that DW Warriors > DW Rogues yet there is plenty of stuff in there that implies Rogues do have better DPS.

[swk3000]

I'm not sure I understand how you came to your conclusion. Hell, Discobird says flat out there that Warriors have better DPS.

[bas273]

I agree with Jack-Nader that a DW Warrior > DW Rogue.
I've just started a new game with a DW Warrior. My party members are: Morrigan, Shale and Leliana.
Morrigan can use Flaming Weapons, Telekinetic Weapons, Haste and Heroic Offense to increase my DPS. She can also cast Vulnerability Hex on enemy bosses.
Shale has a support role so all she does is using her Support Totem talents (Stone Aura, Reserved Assault...) to increase the DPS of my main character.
Finally, Leliana uses Song of Courage, again to increase DPS.
My DW Warrior has more defense than a DW Rogue, some talents to further increase my DPS (Berserk...) and a higher average DPS.

Modifié par bas273, 20 décembre 2009 - 08:29 .

[GilgameshXD]

swk3000 wrote...

I'm not sure I understand how you came to your conclusion. Hell, Discobird says flat out there that Warriors have better DPS.

Only as long as the rogue is not backstabbing. And even then, a cunning rogue makes up the 12 static damage a warrior gets with tainted blade and can easily get +20 out of it. Other rogues can easily get 8 or 9 out of it as well making the difference very minscule upfront as well.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/66/index/460726

Right, so bascially you make a build with a bunch of external bonuses that can apply to rogues as well and pretend they only make a warrior better?

I can do that too. Here's your best dps possible:

Cunning Assain/Bard Rogue, 2 mages. Mages run hastes for +50% animation speed increase and frost/flame weapons each while rogue backstabs. Cast hexes on target if feel the need too.

And a warrior in the same situation can't do anything to compare as he has no way to generate automatic criticals nor does his static bonsues compare to the +AP and +Damage from Bard Song in upfront combat.

edit: fail quote is fail

Modifié par GilgameshXD, 20 décembre 2009 - 08:38 .

[bas273]

I never said the external bonuses make my Warrior better than a Rogue. Of course they work for Rogues as well.
A Rogue has a higher DPS when he gets a critical hit while backstabbing. However, your critical chance won't be much higher than 35% and backstabbing requires you to place the Rogue behind an enemy yourself. This cannot be done with tactics (sadly ).
If you're facing a boss he just turns around and you won't be backstabbing anymore. So the average DPS of a DW Warrior is better.
I'm not 100% sure but based on what I've read, I think the DW Warrior is stronger. Not that it matters much, the difference is so small that you should just pick the class you like the most .

Modifié par bas273, 20 décembre 2009 - 08:40 .

[Fleapants]

That dw rogue vs dw warrior topic is quite old, and there's a few things not mentioned such as damage runes on the offhand dagger not triggering when backstabbing.



People also seems to forget that Momentum and Blood Thirst (Watcher's Keep warrior ability) stacks, allowing warriors extremely fast attack speeds with 10% extra crit.

[swk3000]

To me, I don't look at characters from a party perspective, but an individual perspective. Extra effects from party members are nice, but I prefer to have a character who can cause large amounts of damage on his own, and then gets even meaner when the rest of the party fires up their boosts. However, you seem to have covered that when you said, 'Only as long as the rogue is not backstabbing'.

[GilgameshXD]

bas273 wrote...

I never said the external bonuses make my Warrior better than a Rogue. Of course they work for Rogues as well.
A Rogue has a higher DPS when he gets a critical hit while backstabbing. However, your critical chance won't be much higher than 35% and backstabbing requires you to place the Rogue behind an enemy yourself. This cannot be done with tactics (sadly ).
If you're facing a boss he just turns around and you won't be backstabbing anymore. So the average DPS of a DW Warrior is better.
I'm not 100% sure but based on what I've read, I think the DW Warrior is stronger. Not that it matters much, the difference is so small that you should just pick the class you like the most .

That was actually directed at Jack-Nader.

Placing a rogue behind an enemy is not very hard. A taunt for instance will ensure that a boss won't turn around for the entire fight before a rogue destroys him. And there is plenty of ways to generate backstabs upfront as well.

And I play with all tactics off so actually getting to play the game instead of watching it play itself is hardly an issue for me.

[GilgameshXD]

Fleapants wrote...

That dw rogue vs dw warrior topic is quite old, and there's a few things not mentioned such as damage runes on the offhand dagger not triggering when backstabbing.

People also seems to forget that Momentum and Blood Thirst (Watcher's Keep warrior ability) stacks, allowing warriors extremely fast attack speeds with 10% extra crit.

But it does not stack with 2 hastes, which is far superior.

[swk3000]

GilgameshXD wrote...

Fleapants wrote...

That dw rogue vs dw warrior topic is quite old, and there's a few things not mentioned such as damage runes on the offhand dagger not triggering when backstabbing.

People also seems to forget that Momentum and Blood Thirst (Watcher's Keep warrior ability) stacks, allowing warriors extremely fast attack speeds with 10% extra crit.

But it does not stack with 2 hastes, which is far superior.

But having to have two Hastes means your character isn't at all self-sufficient, which I personally prefer my characters to be.

[Fleapants]

GilgameshXD wrote...

Fleapants wrote...

That dw rogue vs dw warrior topic is quite old, and there's a few things not mentioned such as damage runes on the offhand dagger not triggering when backstabbing.

People also seems to forget that Momentum and Blood Thirst (Watcher's Keep warrior ability) stacks, allowing warriors extremely fast attack speeds with 10% extra crit.

But it does not stack with 2 hastes, which is far superior.

I believe that would be for a discussion on "higest dps party possible"

[GilgameshXD]

I'm not arguing for the most efficient party ever since that is very subjective.



But the claim that DW Warriors somehow are capable of better DPS that rogues was made but it is flat out wrong.