50 réponses à ce sujet

[bas273]

Honestly, I'm not sure who has a higher DPS, a Rogue or a Warrior, and I don't care. Warriors have higher Strength and can wear Massive Armor and that's why I'm going for a DW Warrior.

Modifié par bas273, 20 décembre 2009 - 09:05 .

[Fleapants]

GilgameshXD wrote...

I'm not arguing for the most efficient party ever since that is very subjective.

But the claim that DW Warriors somehow are capable of better DPS that rogues was made but it is flat out wrong.

I agree that given optimal circumstances for both classes, a rogue will pull ahead of a warrior but not by much.
Warriors handle non-optimal situations better though.

It would be awesome if someone made a topic similar to Discobirds' rogue topic, on DW warriors.

[GilgameshXD]

This would take forever to point out all the cases where you are wrong, so I'll just go over the major ones.

Jack-Nader wrote...

Let's look at each build

First of all both the rogue and the warrior will use the same weapons.  Daggers have the best synergy with both builds as Dexterity is the only necessary attribute to increase defense, chance to hit as well as damage.  There is a DPS thread that shows that daggers are infact the best weapons in the game.  I have mirrored these results with my own testing.

Everyone knows this already.

Leathality allows the rogue to use cunning instead of strength.  This sounds good on the surface except that the rogue must place points into strength in order to wear the best leathers.  These points only increase Attack and not defense or damage.  This means that the rogue is going to lose roughly 10 attribute points to the warrior.

There is never any need to put points into str, items will easily give the 20 needed str for best leathers.

High cunning rogues generate more damage output because they gain armor penetration from cunning (1 point every 7 cunning points.)  This means that the Rogue will gain roughly + 10 damage by the end of the game vs high armored targets over the warrior. 

... srsly? By the end game, a high cunning rogue (80) will get about 8AP. They will get 12 damage from exploit weakness (back stab only), 5 or 6 from bard song, and about 19 from tained blade.

The main problem with this build tho is it lacks defense and chance to hit because the bulk of the attributes are going into Cunning.  This forces you to take the duelist class as a counterbalance.  Your other option is to run multiple warriors or mages to "buff" your rogue.  This means that your warriors must all have Rally and also you must weaken your mage by investing in the heroic offense line of spells.

Taking Duelsit only deaces your damage by 5, but gains you +10 attack, defense, a -20 debuff for bosses and 15 seconds of non stop crits. This is more then enough to easily hit white mobs and bosses.

Now we have to look at how a rogue plays.  First off you must Immobalize your enemy, go into stealth or have your party distract the enemy so that you can move around the side or back to initiate backstab.  All this takes valuable seconds to complete and thus DECREASES  the DPS.  The other issue with the backstab is that elemental damage does not trigger correctly.  The majority of critical hits will not have any assigned elemental damage from your daggers or from mage buff spells like flaming weapons.

Taunt solves all your problem for bosses. Against white mobs it hardly matters again. You can always use your stun as well for easy crits. And taking a second to get behind target will hardly make your dps low. Elemental damage triggers on the main weapon fine, and you get the +15 from runes at all times.

Most importatly of all, the upfront damage a cunning rogues is better than that of a warrior anyway due to tainted blade + AP + (Song of Courage or pinpoint strikes pending on build), but you obviously want to back stab to maximize dps.

The class adds + 2 strength and + 8 damage from the rage talent.  This offsets the entire armor penetration bonus that the rogue receives.  The only place that the rogue now gains damage over the warrior is through "song of courage.

This is just wrong.

Bravery adds to damage.

1. Same as duelist.

Warriors does not have to muck about with positioning so it gains the simplicity of simply attacking.  This means that it's DPS is going to be higher than the rogue initially.

Actually, considering that most people build warriors with medium weapons for good aoe damage (best use of DW warriors) there is plenty of positioning invovled.




Here is what warriors have over Rogues when dealing upfront and directly with the enemy:

About 4 damage for being warriors, 1 from bravery and 8 from zerker.


All rogues make this up easily when backstabbing, and cunning rogues make it up even when not backstabbing.


DW warriors do not have superior single target dps compared to Rogues at all. Only to dex/str based ones if they are not backstabbing and not using pinpoint strikes. Only then is their dps better.

DW warriors are still great because they do great damage without you needing to do anything, and are great for whiping white mobs as long as they have 2 medium weapons faster than anything else in the game (bar SoC which is too clunky to use). Finally, their inherent better hp growth helps tank better. Rogues do better single target damage.

Modifié par GilgameshXD, 20 décembre 2009 - 10:10 .

[GilgameshXD]

Jack-Nader wrote...

please post a screenshot where you can get more than 200 Damage consistently in a single strilke and I will concede in favor of the rogue.

 Are you serious or just trying to troll me?

[GilgameshXD]

Jack-Nader wrote...

I am serious because I have not personally seen a rogue do anywhere close to that. I don't have the wardens keep expansion either so I am wondering just how much extra damage that tainted blade does for the crit.

Ok well your intent seems sincere enough.

Taitned blade has nothing to do with crits, it's a static bonus to damage like zerker. On crits it just adds to the end damage like all bonus damage.


The problem with your pic is that it doesn't demonstrate anything really.

First of all, damage per hit is not damage per second.

More importantly, you have gone through great lengths to attain that damage but almost half of it does not come form the warrior but mages (elemental weapons + hexes).

Under the same circumstances (elemental weapons plus hex on target), a rogue would be doing more white damage, and same elemntal damage when backstabbing. I'm not going to give you a screenshot because I can not be botherd to set all this up just to prove a point that should be obvious enough.

By the way, if you have a 2nd mage with cold elemntal weapons you will be doing even more damage (the floaties may no appear since there seems to be a limit to how many can show up, but the damge would still be there and would be another +40 or cold damage per hit).

[GilgameshXD]

The damage does trigger correctly, but it is not always displayed. You are seeing to 39 floaties because dual striking is hitting with both weapons at once. If you have cold weapons it's damage would be applied twice as well even if it may not pop up on screen.



And while the backstabing mechanics of runes is bugged, it does not detract from dps. The runes of the main hand weapon trigger on every backstab, so that even when you alternate weapons when backstabbing, only the runes on the main hand weapon are applied every time.

[swk3000]

Backstabbing is wierd with the Runes. Despite it's animation, the game alternates which weapon it's using to determine damage on a regular basis (most easily seen when using a Longsword/Axe/Mace and a Dagger); however, despite this constant switching, it only ever looks at the runes on the Main-Hand weapon. This means if your Main-Hand weapon has a Grandmaster Fire rune, and your Off-Hand weapon has a Grandmaster Frost rune, the game will behave as if both weapons have a Grandmaster Fire rune slotted in.



Also, a floatie not being there is a graphical thing. The game apparently has a limit on how many floaties it can display, so not all of them get displayed if there's too much going on. To see them, disable the 'Show Damage to Party' option in the Options menu to clear up some of the screen. Also try disabling the 'Show floating spell and talent names' if you have that enabled. With both of those done, you should see your Main-hand runes triggering on every hit.

[termokanden]

Actually, considering that most people build warriors with medium weapons for good aoe damage (best use of DW warriors) there is plenty of positioning invovled.

Not really. My DW warrior was my tank as well. I would run to the nearest mobs and start attacking. Everything would then magically gather around me. Dual sweep, whirlwind. It's definitely quicker than setting up backstabs and taunting stuff first. As a warrior you're hitting the nearest mob as soon as you reach it, and quite frankly they all die almost instantly.

Rogues may have higher DPS on bosses, but even boss fights have plenty of trash mobs to clear. Only for brief moments in the game will you be fighting orange mobs. And even then, it's very quickly over even for a warrior.

DW warriors have three big problems:

1. It's all the same. Every single fight. No real strategy except killing mages first. I suppose it's the same for rogues though. My mage at least could always try new variations of blowing everything up.

2. You get knocked down a LOT. It's so annoying.

3. Berserk turns off automatically when combat finishes. Yes, this also happens in fights with multiple waves, so realistically you will fight many fights WITHOUT the +8 damage bonus. Really, really, really annoying.

Now about rogues. The one thing that has stopped me from playing one is that it is still completely unclear to me how to distribute attribute points. It's very hard to figure out the DPS loss from missing due to stacking cunning for example.

The two other classes are easy enough to figure out, but rogues can be strength rogues, dex rogues, cunning rogues and then they are furhter subdivided by which types of weapons they use. To me this doesn't add flavor but rather just makes the class seem like a big mess. There should be choices to make during leveling, but you should have a clear idea how it affects your character. In Dragon Age, it's all completely obscure.

[Drunkencelt]

Stacking str still beats cunning anyday due to the fact that dagger weapons are simply horrible.

[Tryst]

Daggers are the best weapons in the game, because of their attack speed and how that works with berserk, poisons, mage weapon enchants, vulnerability/affliction hex, and all the other on hit damage bonuses in the game that do not scale by weapon speed.

[termokanden]

And yet they gain only half damage per attribute point compared to how strength affects other one-handers. That means something as well.

I still think things like the berserk bonus and rune damage should be tied to weapon speed, for simple fairness. I'm very surprised they didn't catch this one in design tbh. Anyone with MMO experience would know that fair scaling between the classes is a very important point. But then again, anyone with MMO experience knows that correct scaling usually takes forever to find its way to a game through half a billion patches

Modifié par termokanden, 21 décembre 2009 - 05:00 .

[bas273]

Warden's Keep also adds the Blood Taint talent for the Warrior.
The warrior's own tainted blood spills in sacrifice, increasing
movement speed, attack speed, and critical-hit chance. For as long as
the mode is active, however, the warrior suffers greater damage, and
continuously diminishing health.
So to further increase his DPS, a Warrior can use Berserk, Blood Taint, Perfect Striking, Dual Striking and Monumentum. Having all these talents active at the same time will consume stamina very quickly but even with just Monumentum, Perfect Striking and Berserk you'll do a lot of damage.
But let's compare the Warrior and Rogue. Perhaps you can convince me as well GilgameshXD
In direct combat (no backstabbing), the Warrior has a higher DPS than the Rogue. Hands down.
When the Rogue is backstabbing, his maximum DPS (Critical Hits) is higher but I think the Warrior has a better average DPS. We probably need some damage formulas to prove this.
Let's say both the DW Warrior and DW Rogue face off against one Revenant. The Rogue might be able to use Dirty Fighting and backstab for a while but this won't take long. The Revenant will simply turn around and use one of his spells on the Rogue. This means that the Rogue needs a main tank (with Taunt) to draw the attention away. On it's own, a Rogue is outmatched by the Warrior. That's not a fair comparison IMO. The Rogue can depend on a teammate while the Warrior cannot.
Let's say the team members of the Rogue are: Wynne, Morrigan and Alistair (main tank)
The DW Warrior does not need a main tank (he can be the main tank himself) so instead of Alistair, you could have Leliana or Shale in your party who further increase your DPS. And that makes the DW Warrior stronger.
I might be wrong though This is just my impression.

[tigr3ton]

I have played a cunning rogue and a dw warrior in nightmare difficulty and my warrior does more damage than my rogue.
Can a rogue beat this?  i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa197/tigreton33/daorigins2009-12-2020-26-28-86.jpg

Dw warrior (berserker/champion) , level 20, usually I don't wear helmet (all helmets are really awful) and I never use the warden keep's talents (I mean you can make a  dw warrior with better damage than mine).
Playing on nightmare I don't even need potions, she is my main tank and my normal party is Leliana, Wynne and other.
I always have these buffs on: haste, momentum, precise striking, song of courage. An when I go to fight berserk and rally (I active rally only at fights because the annoying bug of new patch).
Usually I use these attacks: dual weapon-sweep, flurry, Whirlwind.
She wears the best equipment you can get in the singleplayer campaign and the starfang weapon from Warden's keep.

(My rogue does about 300.000 damage at level 20).

Modifié par tigr3ton, 21 décembre 2009 - 01:06 .

[tigr3ton]

tigr3ton wrote...

I have played a cunning rogue and a dw warrior in nightmare difficulty and my warrior does more damage than my rogue.
Can a rogue beat this?  i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa197/tigreton33/daorigins2009-12-2020-26-28-86.jpg

Dw warrior (berserker/champion) , level 20, usually I don't wear helmet (all helmets are really awful) and I never use the warden keep's talents (I mean you can make a  dw warrior with better damage than mine).
Playing on nightmare I don't even need potions, she is my main tank and my normal party is Leliana, Wynne and other.
I always have these buffs on: haste, momentum, precise striking, song of courage. An when I go to fight berserk and rally (I active rally only at fights because the annoying bug of new patch).
Usually I use these attacks: dual weapon-sweep, flurry, Whirlwind.
She wears the best equipment you can get in the singleplayer campaign and the starfang weapon from Warden's keep.

(My rogue does about 300.000 damage at level 20).

[Haplose]

bas273 wrote...

With Dual Striking, backstabs and critical hits are no longer possible but your dps increases. So perhaps that's why Jack-Nader is suggesting a DW Warrior.
Monumentum and Riposte are also available to Warriors. A DW Templar/Champion can be quite deadly.
I'm still wondering what's better though, a DW Rogue or DW Warrior (if you look at DPS).

Well, with a Duelist's Pinpoint Strike, even with Dual Striking enabled, every hit is an automatic critical...

And backstabbing really isn't difficult. With a tank it's almost always easy. But the Rogue can also generate them on his own: Dirty Fighting, Riposte - both generate backstabs with Coup-de-Grace.  Pinpoint Strike = every hit is a critical for 15 seconds. Attack out of Stealth = critical.
With Feast of the Fallen you should never run out of Stamina for Dirty Fightings and Ripostes (and they have relatively short cooldowns).

[plecha]

termokanden wrote...
[...]
Now about rogues. The one thing that has stopped me from playing one is that it is still completely unclear to me how to distribute attribute points. It's very hard to figure out the DPS loss from missing due to stacking cunning for example.

The two other classes are easy enough to figure out, but rogues can be strength rogues, dex rogues, cunning rogues and then they are furhter subdivided by which types of weapons they use. To me this doesn't add flavor but rather just makes the class seem like a big mess. There should be choices to make during leveling, but you should have a clear idea how it affects your character. In Dragon Age, it's all completely obscure.

Think of it as different ways to build them, in effect all variations are perfectly playable.
I on the other hand find levelling up a warrior (maybe not a tank) and even a mage to be quite boring, because there's usually just Str or Mag to consider. Isn't it more interesting to make a bit of a plan before starting out a certain character - and maybe even reading up a bit on the mechanics behind the scene?

Also i must say: the whole dps-talk is nice and all, but we should remember that it's more theoretical. I'm currently playing (slowly) a 2H warrior and am doing over 50 % of the party damage ... and even then find the normal attacks to be just so boring slow sometimes. It's no wonder however, because my tank (shale in def mode) doesn't hit hard, Leliana also isn't the damage dealer and my mage doesn't even have one direct damage spell as of now - so it's no wonder i am doing much damage, and it is fun. Still it is really boring to level that guy up, deciding on attribute allocation with my rogue was way more interesting...

[MarcAntony]

tigr3ton wrote...

I have played a cunning rogue and a dw warrior in nightmare difficulty and my warrior does more damage than my rogue.
Can a rogue beat this?  i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa197/tigreton33/daorigins2009-12-2020-26-28-86.jpg

Dw warrior (berserker/champion) , level 20, usually I don't wear helmet (all helmets are really awful) and I never use the warden keep's talents (I mean you can make a  dw warrior with better damage than mine).
Playing on nightmare I don't even need potions, she is my main tank and my normal party is Leliana, Wynne and other.
I always have these buffs on: haste, momentum, precise striking, song of courage. An when I go to fight berserk and rally (I active rally only at fights because the annoying bug of new patch).
Usually I use these attacks: dual weapon-sweep, flurry, Whirlwind.
She wears the best equipment you can get in the singleplayer campaign and the starfang weapon from Warden's keep.

(My rogue does about 300.000 damage at level 20).

I've seen you in multiple threads spouting this stuff, and its vivid to most seasoned theorycrafters you are mistaking DPH (Damage Per Hit) with DPS (Damage Per Second).

Damage per second is the name of the game and DPS doesn't give a rats patoot how you get there.  You could hit for 1dmg 1000x/second and do more DPS than someone who hits for 800dmg 1x/second. 

Does that make sense to you?

[termokanden]

plecha wrote...

termokanden wrote...
[...]
Now about rogues. The one thing that has stopped me from playing one is that it is still completely unclear to me how to distribute attribute points. It's very hard to figure out the DPS loss from missing due to stacking cunning for example.

The two other classes are easy enough to figure out, but rogues can be strength rogues, dex rogues, cunning rogues and then they are furhter subdivided by which types of weapons they use. To me this doesn't add flavor but rather just makes the class seem like a big mess. There should be choices to make during leveling, but you should have a clear idea how it affects your character. In Dragon Age, it's all completely obscure.

Think of it as different ways to build them, in effect all variations are perfectly playable.
I on the other hand find levelling up a warrior (maybe not a tank) and even a mage to be quite boring, because there's usually just Str or Mag to consider. Isn't it more interesting to make a bit of a plan before starting out a certain character - and maybe even reading up a bit on the mechanics behind the scene?

It's interesting only if there are meaningful choices to make. Not only is Dragon Age extremely secretive about mechanics, it has also been bugged for quite a while and in fact still is a bit.

Now let's assume all that is fixed. It still takes a lot of calculations to find out how to invest. Even then, it's not clear what is best, given that we really have no idea what kind of defense ratings mobs have and how much attack we need. It feels like a clumsy system when you have to choose between hitting stuff well and doing damage when you hit them. And that is the whole variation? Not good enough.

Think of something like NWN instead. It had many interesting and very different builds. Much more difference there than here in fact. And the differences were mostly in feats (talents) since you had very few attribute poitns to play around with. In Dragon Age you get every talent in your specialization no matter what, and that's actually quite boring.

The whole attribute system in Dragon Age annoys me in fact. Cunning more than anything, as there are already too many attributes to put points into for melee characters without it.

Again, I like Dragon Age, but I dislike the game mechanics.