1098 réponses à ce sujet

[snfonseka]

BleedingUranium wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

"swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers" - That tactic won't work if there are huge number of carriers. Isn't it? We don't know the actual number of Reapers or do we?

So long as the ratio of Carriers to PT Boats stays the same, the numbers don't matter, only the ratio.

Dah...That I know. But can we maintain the ratio if the number of Reapers close to 1 million or at least 50,000+? Also keep in mind their canons can destroy a single ship with a single shot.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

"swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers" - That tactic won't work if there are huge number of carriers. Isn't it? We don't know the actual number of Reapers or do we?

Point. Yes, we don't know. Some think its millions, which is insane.
A rough estimate is 50,000.
But considering how huge the reapers are and their lack of armaments aside from one huge cannon makes swarming them viable. Getting inside is another matter, we only hear of them being able to be boarded, not how. I guess Saren knew how.

Not sure how you're getting 50,000, but based on the Leviathan info in ME1, it was a billion years old. That's as far back as we can confirm the Reapers go, and that's if you believe a potentially outdated planet entry.

That's 20,000 Reapers, tops. Even that though, doesn't seem believable. Though we won't know for sure until the Leviathan DLC, based on a few pieces of evidence, and the leaked info, I find it a lot more likely the Reapers haven't been around much longer than 37 million, which would be roughly 750 Reapers, which to me seems more plausible.

For there to be 50,000 Reapers, they would have to have been around 2.5 billion years! And that's not even taking into account losses!

Using the information on Levithan concur that there are 20,000 Reapers is jumping to conclusions. We know the Leviathan is a Reaper of some sort. We don't know if it's a capital ship, if it's the first ever Reaper, how long the Reapers have been harvesting cycles, etc.

We know that the Leviathan is one billion years old.

We know that cycles are ~50,000 years.

1,000,000,000/50,000 = 20,000.

There are, assuming only 1 Reaper of any kind is made per cycle and that the Leviathan is the first ever Reaper, 20,000 Reaper ships. 

Minimum.

I'm not quite sure how that's hard to figure out.

[satunnainen]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Now... go ahead and try to destroy 20,000+ of them. 

What...?

A bad estimate of how many reapers there are. But don't worry. 20k would be easy.

You're right: it's a very modest estimate. Eons means (hundreds of) billions of years, and the Catalyst himself tells you that this was how long the Reapers have been Reaping. Divide eons by 50,000 and you'll get a number in the hundreds of thousands, not just tens of thousands.

Hundreds of billions of years? Do you even know how old the universe actually is?

Depends if the scientists are right when they assume that they can start extrapolating from the current observed situation and end up in a single spot in time and space as a starting point. If the universe is more complex, for some reason, it can be older

Anyway I would say that reapers have been around 100 million to 1 billion years (thats 100*10^6 - 10^9 years), but I have no way to verify it.

[BleedingUranium]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

"swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers" - That tactic won't work if there are huge number of carriers. Isn't it? We don't know the actual number of Reapers or do we?

Point. Yes, we don't know. Some think its millions, which is insane.
A rough estimate is 50,000.
But considering how huge the reapers are and their lack of armaments aside from one huge cannon makes swarming them viable. Getting inside is another matter, we only hear of them being able to be boarded, not how. I guess Saren knew how.

Not sure how you're getting 50,000, but based on the Leviathan info in ME1, it was a billion years old. That's as far back as we can confirm the Reapers go, and that's if you believe a potentially outdated planet entry.

That's 20,000 Reapers, tops. Even that though, doesn't seem believable. Though we won't know for sure until the Leviathan DLC, based on a few pieces of evidence, and the leaked info, I find it a lot more likely the Reapers haven't been around much longer than 37 million, which would be roughly 750 Reapers, which to me seems more plausible.

For there to be 50,000 Reapers, they would have to have been around 2.5 billion years! And that's not even taking into account losses!

Using the information on Levithan concur that there are 20,000 Reapers is jumping to conclusions. We know the Leviathan is a Reaper of some sort. We don't know if it's a capital ship, if it's the first ever Reaper, how long the Reapers have been harvesting cycles, etc.

I'm not so much jumping to conlusions as making the best assumpitions I can with the very limited info we have.

*Minor Leviathan Spoilers*

Harbinger is confirmed to be the first Reaper, not that that helps us here.

[BerzerkGene]

[quote]saracen16 wrote...

And the Protheans lost to the Reapers because of attrition both in land and space. Attrition applies to our space fleets more than anything.[/quote]

Hmm no, they lost because they were cut off from the Mass relays and the Citadel trap worked, they were unable to unite.

[quote]saracen16 wrote...

What...?
[/quote]
A bad estimate of how many reapers there are. But don't worry. 20k would be easy.

[/quote]

You're
right: it's a very modest estimate. Eons means (hundreds of) billions
of years, and the Catalyst himself tells you that this was how long the
Reapers have been Reaping. Divide eons by 50,000 and you'll get a number
in the hundreds of thousands, not just tens of thousands.
[/quote]
Then again, there would be no battle. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old, i chose to put the Reaper's existence at 1 billion-ish. I highly doubt there were reapers when the galaxy was still forming. Eons isn't an exact time frame. It basically just means really god damn ancient. The Reapers and catalyst himself are always boasting, yet it falls short in practice. "our numbers will darken the skies of every world." By your logic, Sovereign wasn't kidding, because the Reapers themselves would number in the millions. 4 reapers guarding palaven? pff, they would have enough for 400.

[quote]saracen16 wrote...

Oh my God... This thread again?! A
conventional victory against the Reapers is impossible. You're ignoring
the other codex entries about dreadnoughts and Reaper capabilities.
Never mind the fact that countless cycles have already generated
countless Reapers, and even using conventional tactics, previous cycles
may have won battles but eventually lost the war. The most notable cycle
to do this? THE PROTHEANS. Let's reiterate: organics and synthetics
rely on...

1. Supply lines
2. Morale
3. Numbers
4. Firepower

The Reapers do not need supply lines nor morale, and they exceed all civilizations by numbers and firepower. There is no hope for organics and synthetics other than an unconventional victory. It simply can not be done otherwise.
[/quote]
1. The galaxy can always make new ones and the Reapers really do not care, they don't attack them or anything. With the inclusion or the Quarians, Geth and Elcor, this is easily accomplished. The Geth have no need for food or sleep, only power and ships.
2. Morale. Fighting for the very survival of your species is a big motivator. Many people go to their deaths when they see no way out, they fight harder than ever before. Never underestimate the survival instinct.
3. Nope.
4. Thanix cannons, on fighters. Combine with fleets like the Quarians, who have more than 50,000 ships

Unless you know the exact number of reapers, you cannot proclaim "oooh they outnumber us, its impossibru!" You don't take anything into account such as losses, cycles like the Protheans, where no reaper was made or any variables at all and you seem to think the reapers came into existence the galaxy was formed.
You don't have an account of every cycle, you have no idea if the protheans were the most successful in killing reapers. I seem to recall a civilization making a cannon so powerful it one shotted a reaper and carved a huge crater in a planet.

Modifié par BerzerkGene, 31 juillet 2012 - 10:10 .

[Han Shot First]

satunnainen wrote...

[Anyway I would say that reapers have been around 100 million to 1 billion years (thats 100*10^6 - 10^9 years), but I have no way to verify it.

If Balak survives Bring Down the Sky, Shepard can run into him again on the Citadel. He provides some background info on how the Batarian Hegemony collapsed, and tells Shepard that the Leviathon of Dis turned out to be a partially 'dead' Reaper. The Batarian military and political leaders who came into contact with it were indoctrinated, and ended up betraying the Hegemony when the Reapers invaded.

The planet description for Jartar where the Batarians found the Leviathan, notes that it was estimated to be nearly a billion years old.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 31 juillet 2012 - 10:15 .

[BerzerkGene]

saracen16 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

You can't fight a war without money.

If the economy collapsed, so would the war effort.



"The sinews of war are endless money."

---Cicero

I agree with Han, with one important exception: the galactic economy does not just mean the flow of money. It also means the flow of products and supplies. The fact that it can collapse tells you much not just about how galactic money itself is losing its value, but also how much supplies and their trafficking will be disrupted.

Perhaps, but the geth are a perfect example, they have no economy and in 300 years managed to make a fleet capable of stopping the Quarians 50k fleet. Operating under the same rules as the geth would be perfect.
Money is a motivation. Survival is a bigger motivation.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

We know that the Leviathan is one billion years old.

We know that cycles are ~50,000 years.

1,000,000,000/50,000 = 20,000.

There are, assuming only 1 Reaper of any kind is made per cycle and that the Leviathan is the first ever Reaper, 20,000 Reaper ships. 

Minimum.

I'm not quite sure how that's hard to figure out.

It's not hard to figure it, it's hard not to question. Your math accounts for one variable - the assumptiong that a Reaper is generated each cycle. It does not account for the cycles that did not produce a Reaper and it does not account for Reaper casualties. You essentially counting every Reaper possibly ever 'born,' it would be like the Reapers assuming that there are 30 billion people on Earth. There's nothing you can do about it, the Reapers' numbers are entirely unknown to us, this is the game's fault. My own estimates are below 1,000 dreadnoughts, based on how many Reapers we have seen and how the Reapers harvested each cycle previously.

[Conniving_Eagle]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

"swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers" - That tactic won't work if there are huge number of carriers. Isn't it? We don't know the actual number of Reapers or do we?

Point. Yes, we don't know. Some think its millions, which is insane.
A rough estimate is 50,000.
But considering how huge the reapers are and their lack of armaments aside from one huge cannon makes swarming them viable. Getting inside is another matter, we only hear of them being able to be boarded, not how. I guess Saren knew how.

Not sure how you're getting 50,000, but based on the Leviathan info in ME1, it was a billion years old. That's as far back as we can confirm the Reapers go, and that's if you believe a potentially outdated planet entry.

That's 20,000 Reapers, tops. Even that though, doesn't seem believable. Though we won't know for sure until the Leviathan DLC, based on a few pieces of evidence, and the leaked info, I find it a lot more likely the Reapers haven't been around much longer than 37 million, which would be roughly 750 Reapers, which to me seems more plausible.

For there to be 50,000 Reapers, they would have to have been around 2.5 billion years! And that's not even taking into account losses!

Using the information on Levithan concur that there are 20,000 Reapers is jumping to conclusions. We know the Leviathan is a Reaper of some sort. We don't know if it's a capital ship, if it's the first ever Reaper, how long the Reapers have been harvesting cycles, etc.

I'm not so much jumping to conlusions as making the best assumpitions I can with the very limited info we have.

*Minor Leviathan Spoilers*

Harbinger is confirmed to be the first Reaper, not that that helps us here.

Harbinger isn't confirmed to be the first Reaper. He is believed to be the oldest Reaper because he leads them. People speculate that Leviathan of Dis was the first Reaper, a rogue Reaper.

[BleedingUranium]

Han Shot First wrote...

satunnainen wrote...

[Anyway I would say that reapers have been around 100 million to 1 billion years (thats 100*10^6 - 10^9 years), but I have no way to verify it.

If Balak survives Bring Down the Sky, Shepard can run into him again on the Citadel. He provides some background info on how the Batarian Hegemony collapsed, and tells Shepard that the Leviathon of Dis turned out to be a partially 'dead' Reaper. The Batarian military and political leaders who came into contact with it were indoctrinated, and ended up betraying the Hegemony when the Reapers invaded.

The planet description for Jartar where the Batarians found the Leviathan, notes that it was estimated to be nearly a billion years old.

Sure, we already mentioned that, that's where the 20,000 estimate comes from, but we have no evidence to suggest a larger number than than. Any mention of a larger number is pure guessing.

Also, the Batarians are Batarians, the Hegemony lies through it's teeth and brags about everything. That's stated plenty of places, but one good one is the info for Kar'Shan. It's basically North Korea.

While the Leviathan may be 1,000,000,000 years old, and that's all we have to go on right now, don't treat it as set in stone.

[Han Shot First]

BerzerkGene wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

You can't fight a war without money.

If the economy collapsed, so would the war effort.



"The sinews of war are endless money."

---Cicero

I agree with Han, with one important exception: the galactic economy does not just mean the flow of money. It also means the flow of products and supplies. The fact that it can collapse tells you much not just about how galactic money itself is losing its value, but also how much supplies and their trafficking will be disrupted.

Perhaps, but the geth are a perfect example, they have no economy and in 300 years managed to make a fleet capable of stopping the Quarians 50k fleet. Operating under the same rules as the geth would be perfect.
Money is a motivation. Survival is a bigger motivation.

The Geth don't need to eat to survive.

A human or Turian factory worker on an assembly line churning out parts for assault rifles, does. And to eat, he needs to be paid.

[BleedingUranium]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

"swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers" - That tactic won't work if there are huge number of carriers. Isn't it? We don't know the actual number of Reapers or do we?

Point. Yes, we don't know. Some think its millions, which is insane.
A rough estimate is 50,000.
But considering how huge the reapers are and their lack of armaments aside from one huge cannon makes swarming them viable. Getting inside is another matter, we only hear of them being able to be boarded, not how. I guess Saren knew how.

Not sure how you're getting 50,000, but based on the Leviathan info in ME1, it was a billion years old. That's as far back as we can confirm the Reapers go, and that's if you believe a potentially outdated planet entry.

That's 20,000 Reapers, tops. Even that though, doesn't seem believable. Though we won't know for sure until the Leviathan DLC, based on a few pieces of evidence, and the leaked info, I find it a lot more likely the Reapers haven't been around much longer than 37 million, which would be roughly 750 Reapers, which to me seems more plausible.

For there to be 50,000 Reapers, they would have to have been around 2.5 billion years! And that's not even taking into account losses!

Using the information on Levithan concur that there are 20,000 Reapers is jumping to conclusions. We know the Leviathan is a Reaper of some sort. We don't know if it's a capital ship, if it's the first ever Reaper, how long the Reapers have been harvesting cycles, etc.

I'm not so much jumping to conlusions as making the best assumpitions I can with the very limited info we have.

*Minor Leviathan Spoilers*

Harbinger is confirmed to be the first Reaper, not that that helps us here.

Harbinger isn't confirmed to be the first Reaper. He is believed to be the oldest Reaper because he leads them. People speculate that Leviathan of Dis was the first Reaper, a rogue Reaper.

I'll elaborate then. The added dialogue with the kid is in the leaked files, and he specifically says Harbinger is the first. Now, I don't trust the kids motivations, but there'd be no reason to lie about something like this. Just how he said he killed his creators and turned them into the first Reaper (Harbinger)

[BleedingUranium]

Han Shot First wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

You can't fight a war without money.

If the economy collapsed, so would the war effort.



"The sinews of war are endless money."

---Cicero

I agree with Han, with one important exception: the galactic economy does not just mean the flow of money. It also means the flow of products and supplies. The fact that it can collapse tells you much not just about how galactic money itself is losing its value, but also how much supplies and their trafficking will be disrupted.

Perhaps, but the geth are a perfect example, they have no economy and in 300 years managed to make a fleet capable of stopping the Quarians 50k fleet. Operating under the same rules as the geth would be perfect.
Money is a motivation. Survival is a bigger motivation.

The Geth don't need to eat to survive.

A human or Turian factory worker on an assembly line churning out parts for assault rifles, does. And to eat, he needs to be paid.

No, to eat he needs food. Money is irrelevant in war-time.

[BerzerkGene]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...


We know that the Leviathan is one billion years old.

We know that cycles are ~50,000 years.

1,000,000,000/50,000 = 20,000.

There are, assuming only 1 Reaper of any kind is made per cycle and that the Leviathan is the first ever Reaper, 20,000 Reaper ships. 

Minimum.

I'm not quite sure how that's hard to figure out.

Fair enough, its close to one billion, but Harbinger is the oldest Reaper.
Thats the thing, minimum. One sovereign class is suposedly made each cycle with a bunch of destroyers(not counting cycles like the protheans). I still find 20k to be...very little. It makes it seem like previous cycles were rather successful in fighting off the reapers.
While i personally think the oculi mean nothing unless they have 3-4 times more of them than the reapers themselves, which i find hard to believe. They would have to wear out, being partially organic(not in the way the reapers are, mind you). plus being one shotted doesn't make them that impressive.
Destroyers don't hold up against normal weaponry for long, their armour does grant them reasonable toughness, but they have a huge weakspot.
Sovereign class are very tough. Harbinger however is probably a fleet unto himself. If you said beating the reapers, i would say sure, possible, beating the reapers that have harbinger with them...eeeh looks iffy. He can beamspam like a bastard.

[Rhosyn]

Expense is a factor that can be ignored in this instance as in a war for survival, people will work essentially for free, so long as they're provided with neccesities.

To start--this is the first fallacy. Expense cannot be ignored when the materials you intend to make the QEC for these unmanned drones you talk about cost MONEY. Wartime will not make them stop costing money. Even if the materials are given gratis, it will cost ships fuel, time, and credits to get it to the production lines. To say that a war does not require money is to ignore every war ever fought in recent human history.

Assuming it can be done immediately is the next fallacy. When your sources of production are being destroyed and/or converted, your productivity goes down. Meaning less thanix cannons (that still have to be created while the ship's undergoing retrofits which would normally take months if not years). Meaning more occupied territory. Meaning more ships get shot down if they risk that flight path to get you the QEC materials. Multiple colonies are taken out. Palaven and Earth are engaging in orbital and planetside warfare almost immediately. Most of the galaxy is already under occupation by the time you get off the Citadel!

Third fallacy? Assuming that we are on equal footing with the Reapers. This ignores every battle we've ever seen, where they cut through or FLY through several ships at a time. The oculi can EASILY destroy a fighter or cut through the hull of a ship, and were only piloted by Collectors during the events of ME2. They are not piloted by husks at all, in either game. Even if we did "outnumber" the Reapers (which I don't believe to be the case), they outgun us.

Fourth fallacy - Basic biological function. Breaks in morale, supplies, sleep...Not to mention the indoctrination of powerful officials. Was I the only one paying attention when they talked about the Reaper tactics during the last cycle? No secret is perfectly kept, and the Reapers would have found out about the retrofits and had a shooting gallery--assuming they didn't have the shipyards sabotaged by indoctrinated agents. The Reapers aren't dumb. Remember how Anderson said they immediately started targeting even nuclear missile silos, because they -might- be able to help?

Don't even get me started if Cerberus finds out, what with their tendency to start ransacking human colonies yet to be hit...

Fifth fallacy - Kamikaze runs. Ignoring the oculi will result in the fighters being destroyed, possibly even the frigates. Those fighters will be outnumbered and destroyed due to their lack of proper armor. Not to mention, using a smaller Thanix cannon will not result in them same damage output as a dreadnought, or even a frigate.

Modifié par Rhosyn, 31 juillet 2012 - 10:35 .

[BerzerkGene]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

"swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers" - That tactic won't work if there are huge number of carriers. Isn't it? We don't know the actual number of Reapers or do we?

Point. Yes, we don't know. Some think its millions, which is insane.
A rough estimate is 50,000.
But considering how huge the reapers are and their lack of armaments aside from one huge cannon makes swarming them viable. Getting inside is another matter, we only hear of them being able to be boarded, not how. I guess Saren knew how.

Not sure how you're getting 50,000, but based on the Leviathan info in ME1, it was a billion years old. That's as far back as we can confirm the Reapers go, and that's if you believe a potentially outdated planet entry.

That's 20,000 Reapers, tops. Even that though, doesn't seem believable. Though we won't know for sure until the Leviathan DLC, based on a few pieces of evidence, and the leaked info, I find it a lot more likely the Reapers haven't been around much longer than 37 million, which would be roughly 750 Reapers, which to me seems more plausible.

For there to be 50,000 Reapers, they would have to have been around 2.5 billion years! And that's not even taking into account losses!

Using the information on Levithan concur that there are 20,000 Reapers is jumping to conclusions. We know the Leviathan is a Reaper of some sort. We don't know if it's a capital ship, if it's the first ever Reaper, how long the Reapers have been harvesting cycles, etc.

I'm not so much jumping to conlusions as making the best assumpitions I can with the very limited info we have.

*Minor Leviathan Spoilers*

Harbinger is confirmed to be the first Reaper, not that that helps us here.

Thanks, not that i really care about said DLC, since it will change absolutely nothing. Especially if it bring a rebellious Reaper, it will just throw the whole ending for a loop once again.

I'm trying to count all the reapers, i would say around 20k capital ships, 30k destroyers. Destroyers are less than one tenth the size of dreadnoughts, so i figure they're much easier to make.
The Levithan is probably a capital ship. Destroyer wreckage would be easy to find otherwise, them being so much weaker, but theres a couple of dead dreadnoughts floating around.

[BerzerkGene]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

You can't fight a war without money.

If the economy collapsed, so would the war effort.



"The sinews of war are endless money."

---Cicero

I agree with Han, with one important exception: the galactic economy does not just mean the flow of money. It also means the flow of products and supplies. The fact that it can collapse tells you much not just about how galactic money itself is losing its value, but also how much supplies and their trafficking will be disrupted.

Perhaps, but the geth are a perfect example, they have no economy and in 300 years managed to make a fleet capable of stopping the Quarians 50k fleet. Operating under the same rules as the geth would be perfect.
Money is a motivation. Survival is a bigger motivation.

The Geth don't need to eat to survive.

A human or Turian factory worker on an assembly line churning out parts for assault rifles, does. And to eat, he needs to be paid.

No, to eat he needs food. Money is irrelevant in war-time.

....Why would they be on an assembly line, automation dude, one geth could run all that crap by himself. Said turian or human would be more use as a pilot, as AIs have trouble dealing with organic though processes.
The Quarian live ships grow their food, similar principles could be applied, or just have the food made on remote worlds and shipped, using the aforementioned races ships.
My point was that survival is the strongest motivation a person has, except love in rare cases.

[BleedingUranium]

BerzerkGene wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

"swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers" - That tactic won't work if there are huge number of carriers. Isn't it? We don't know the actual number of Reapers or do we?

Point. Yes, we don't know. Some think its millions, which is insane.
A rough estimate is 50,000.
But considering how huge the reapers are and their lack of armaments aside from one huge cannon makes swarming them viable. Getting inside is another matter, we only hear of them being able to be boarded, not how. I guess Saren knew how.

Not sure how you're getting 50,000, but based on the Leviathan info in ME1, it was a billion years old. That's as far back as we can confirm the Reapers go, and that's if you believe a potentially outdated planet entry.

That's 20,000 Reapers, tops. Even that though, doesn't seem believable. Though we won't know for sure until the Leviathan DLC, based on a few pieces of evidence, and the leaked info, I find it a lot more likely the Reapers haven't been around much longer than 37 million, which would be roughly 750 Reapers, which to me seems more plausible.

For there to be 50,000 Reapers, they would have to have been around 2.5 billion years! And that's not even taking into account losses!

Using the information on Levithan concur that there are 20,000 Reapers is jumping to conclusions. We know the Leviathan is a Reaper of some sort. We don't know if it's a capital ship, if it's the first ever Reaper, how long the Reapers have been harvesting cycles, etc.

I'm not so much jumping to conlusions as making the best assumpitions I can with the very limited info we have.

*Minor Leviathan Spoilers*

Harbinger is confirmed to be the first Reaper, not that that helps us here.

Thanks, not that i really care about said DLC, since it will change absolutely nothing. Especially if it bring a rebellious Reaper, it will just throw the whole ending for a loop once again.

I'm trying to count all the reapers, i would say around 20k capital ships, 30k destroyers. Destroyers are less than one tenth the size of dreadnoughts, so i figure they're much easier to make.
The Levithan is probably a capital ship. Destroyer wreckage would be easy to find otherwise, them being so much weaker, but theres a couple of dead dreadnoughts floating around.

Also, more spoilers, we know that Leviathan killed another Reaper, and, (speculation mode: on) I'm betting it's the dead Reaper from ME2, if only because that'd be an awesome tie-in. Tie-ins make good stories. Related to that, I saw The Dark Knight Rises a yesterday and, without spoilers, there where lots of cool tie-ins

[Conniving_Eagle]

If Levithan killed the Derelict Reaper from ME2 (which is very speculative), than it was no ordinary Reaper, and it makes Harbinger look like a girl scout,

As for TDKR part, no comment.

[BerzerkGene]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

If Levithan killed the Derelict Reaper from ME2 (which is very speculative), than it was no ordinary Reaper, and it makes Harbinger look like a girl scout,

As for TDKR part, no comment.

Unfortunately no, the derelict one was taken out by a massive planetary cannon that glanced off a planet, leaving a huge scar.
How and why a reaper would rebel is ridiculous to even contemplate.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

We know that the Leviathan is one billion years old.

We know that cycles are ~50,000 years.

1,000,000,000/50,000 = 20,000.

There are, assuming only 1 Reaper of any kind is made per cycle and that the Leviathan is the first ever Reaper, 20,000 Reaper ships. 

Minimum.

I'm not quite sure how that's hard to figure out.

It's not hard to figure it, it's hard not to question. Your math accounts for one variable - the assumptiong that a Reaper is generated each cycle. It does not account for the cycles that did not produce a Reaper and it does not account for Reaper casualties. You essentially counting every Reaper possibly ever 'born,' it would be like the Reapers assuming that there are 30 billion people on Earth. There's nothing you can do about it, the Reapers' numbers are entirely unknown to us, this is the game's fault. My own estimates are below 1,000 dreadnoughts, based on how many Reapers we have seen and how the Reapers harvested each cycle previously.

It also assumes that ONLY one Reaper is generated each cycle, when there's no evidence to show that it's not more than that.

Quite frankly, it's easily on the "best case" scenario side that there are only 20,000 Reapers than it is on the "worst case" side. 

[BerzerkGene]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Seriously? You said "no one gives a crap about" the deadnaughts. I just... I can't take you seriously after that.

FTR, though, 20,000 was their ships - Capital ships and Destroyers. We're not even estimating how many Oculi fighters they have because it's clearly many MANY more than that.

But whatever, man. "Who cares" about the dreadnaughts. Indeed.

I don't care because the bulk of the Galaxy's armada is not made up of dreadnoughts, they're simply the toughest, with the most conventional guns. Frigates would be my main concern, fast, tough, armed with thanix cannons. Like the Normandy, but not as advanced or cool.

Yeah like those fighters are so useful, one shot them...not a biggie. And its dreadnoughts with an 'o'.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

We know that the Leviathan is one billion years old.

We know that cycles are ~50,000 years.

1,000,000,000/50,000 = 20,000.

There are, assuming only 1 Reaper of any kind is made per cycle and that the Leviathan is the first ever Reaper, 20,000 Reaper ships. 

Minimum.

I'm not quite sure how that's hard to figure out.

It's not hard to figure it, it's hard not to question. Your math accounts for one variable - the assumptiong that a Reaper is generated each cycle. It does not account for the cycles that did not produce a Reaper and it does not account for Reaper casualties. You essentially counting every Reaper possibly ever 'born,' it would be like the Reapers assuming that there are 30 billion people on Earth. There's nothing you can do about it, the Reapers' numbers are entirely unknown to us, this is the game's fault. My own estimates are below 1,000 dreadnoughts, based on how many Reapers we have seen and how the Reapers harvested each cycle previously.

It also assumes that ONLY one Reaper is generated each cycle, when there's no evidence to show that it's not more than that.

Quite frankly, it's easily on the "best case" scenario side that there are only 20,000 Reapers than it is on the "worst case" side. 

And what would the worst case scenario be?

[Eain]

It would work. Reapers only have that single big laser that's really inefficient at destroying small targets. It'd be like Rebel Alliance vs Death Star.

Melt all the capital ships down and turn em into fighters. I support this notion.

[Father_Jerusalem]

BerzerkGene wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...


We know that the Leviathan is one billion years old.

We know that cycles are ~50,000 years.

1,000,000,000/50,000 = 20,000.

There are, assuming only 1 Reaper of any kind is made per cycle and that the Leviathan is the first ever Reaper, 20,000 Reaper ships. 

Minimum.

I'm not quite sure how that's hard to figure out.

Fair enough, its close to one billion, but Harbinger is the oldest Reaper.
Thats the thing, minimum. One sovereign class is suposedly made each cycle with a bunch of destroyers(not counting cycles like the protheans). I still find 20k to be...very little. It makes it seem like previous cycles were rather successful in fighting off the reapers.
While i personally think the oculi mean nothing unless they have 3-4 times more of them than the reapers themselves, which i find hard to believe. They would have to wear out, being partially organic(not in the way the reapers are, mind you). plus being one shotted doesn't make them that impressive.
Destroyers don't hold up against normal weaponry for long, their armour does grant them reasonable toughness, but they have a huge weakspot.
Sovereign class are very tough. Harbinger however is probably a fleet unto himself. If you said beating the reapers, i would say sure, possible, beating the reapers that have harbinger with them...eeeh looks iffy. He can beamspam like a bastard.

20,000 IS very little. It is the absolute best case scenario that the alliance can hope for. That there are ONLY 20,000 Reaper ships.

It STILL is enough to show that the organics have NO CHANCE.

Honestly, you're sitting here saying that Oculi would wear out and that Destroyers are just huge weak spots that can't take a hit while ignoring the facts that if the Oculi are wearing out... the ENTIRE ORGANIC FLEET is way past "worn out" and that these giant floating weak spots of Destroyers can still one shot any ship in the organic fleet. 

You can kill a Reaper. You can kill a few Reapers. You cannot kill the Reapers en masse.