1098 réponses à ce sujet

[Candidate 88766]

There are more Reaper capital ships than there are dreadnoughts, so swarming them won't work.

The Reapers have superior:
Numbers
Weapons
Armour
Engines
Range

You cannot win conventionally. A few battles perhaps, but not the war.

[Bushido Effect]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Don't have anything to say, Collector? Lol. 

[krasnoarmeets]

saracen16 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Now... go ahead and try to destroy 20,000+ of them. 

What...?

A bad estimate of how many reapers there are. But don't worry. 20k would be easy.

You're right: it's a very modest estimate. Eons means (hundreds of) billions of years, and the Catalyst himself tells you that this was how long the Reapers have been Reaping. Divide eons by 50,000 and you'll get a number in the hundreds of thousands, not just tens of thousands.

That's highly creative. Given that the upper age limit set on the oldest clusters in the Milky way is estimated to be around 16 billion years that seems highly unlikely. I doubt that the reapers have been doing their thing the entire time. It would take 2.5 billion years to create 50,000 capital ships because they're created 1 per cycle once every 50,000 years. 

[The Angry One]

Bushido Effect wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Dude.

This will not, and never can, apply to the Reapers.

You cannot win conventionally. You are told this twice before going to the Citadel for the first time.

You either use the Crucible that you have permission to use, or you die.

It's really ****ing simple.

Hackett would agree.  

This ain't the 21st century, fighting other humans on a single tiny planet, Earth.  This is total Milky Way War!

Hackett is a defeatist and an incompetent. At roughly the same time Coronati was shooting down Reaper capital ships, Hackett was sacrificing entire fleets to keep himself safe.
Not to mention Alliance fleet deployment at the time of the Reaper attack was a complete joke. Why were 2 fleets scattered in the colonies? Why was there a fleet orbiting Earth? Why was another parked right next to the Charon relay? They might as well have just painted bullseyes on their hulls and broadcasted how many points the Reapers were to score with each kill.

[Ztrobos]

BerzerkGene wrote...
Their last hope is Shepard, basically. As long as Shepard lives, the war can continue, its the whole point of shepard's epic speeches. Hope, either through reasonable arguments or badassery and intimidation.

Lol. Good luck to you then, and I hope noone finds out what sweet deal you passed up to save the lives of AI´s. Otherwise they´ll be gunning for Shepards blood. And by them I mean every organic being in the universe.

[Bushido Effect]

The Angry One wrote...

Bushido Effect wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Dude.

This will not, and never can, apply to the Reapers.

You cannot win conventionally. You are told this twice before going to the Citadel for the first time.

You either use the Crucible that you have permission to use, or you die.

It's really ****ing simple.

Hackett would agree.  

This ain't the 21st century, fighting other humans on a single tiny planet, Earth.  This is total Milky Way War!

Hackett is a defeatist and an incompetent. At roughly the same time Coronati was shooting down Reaper capital ships, Hackett was sacrificing entire fleets to keep himself safe.
Not to mention Alliance fleet deployment at the time of the Reaper attack was a complete joke. Why were 2 fleets scattered in the colonies? Why was there a fleet orbiting Earth? Why was another parked right next to the Charon relay? They might as well have just painted bullseyes on their hulls and broadcasted how many points the Reapers were to score with each kill.

can you refresh me please?  What is Coronati?  is it mentioned in the books? Don't remember hearing the name in the games.  
But that said, I should've added that in addition to Hackett, others would feel the same.  The Asari government, Salarians, Turians.  The council themselves.


But I still agree with this:

Candidate 88766 wrote...

There are more Reaper capital ships than there are dreadnoughts, so swarming them won't work. 

The Reapers have superior:
Numbers
Weapons
Armour
Engines
Range

You cannot win conventionally. A few battles perhaps, but not the war.

 

Modifié par Bushido Effect, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:29 .

[BerzerkGene]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

There are more Reaper capital ships than there are dreadnoughts, so swarming them won't work.

The Reapers have superior:
Numbers
Weapons
Armour
Engines
Range

You cannot win conventionally. A few battles perhaps, but not the war.

Again, i'd like to tell you some numbers and facts.
4 Dreadnoughts can kill a Sovereign class Reaper
4 Cruisers have the same firepower as a dreadnought.
1 Thanix cannon can give a fighter firepower rivaling said cruiser.
Ergo: 16 fighters can kill a Sovereign class Reaper

Number: No, again, they're vastly outnumbered and rely solely on their massive power.
Weapons: Their guns are more powerful yes, But thanix cannons are backwards engineered, smaller and can be mounted on fighters.
Armour: If you mean barriers, then yes, however thanix cannons are designed to pierce said barriers. Actual armour though? The Mass driver of a normal alliance ship was able to blow off the arm of a Reaper, they aren't that tough.
Engines: True, however this can be exploited, having Reapers hit from behind would weither force them to turn around, which would weaken their barriers, or continue on while being blasted from behind. The real advantage they have is their ftl is significantly faster.
Range: Not really, you never see a Reaper outrange anything. Even if it were so, they have terrible aim and Thanix cannons would have a similar range, being the same technology.

[General User]

Skirata129 wrote...

it struck me that a method of overhwelming the Reapar fleet has already been exploited in a modern military excercise to great effect. In an exercise pitting a low tech force against a carrier battlegroup, the Opfor commander achieved victory by swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers.

Could not this same idea be extrapolated to the mass effect universe? Take many small, lightly armored and fast fighters and frigates, arm them with thanix cannons and mob the Reapers. Sure many of them would be shot down, but the Reaper capital ships would be swarmed with the effective firepower of several hundred dreadnaughts, without being presented with the relatively slow and large target a dreadnaught usually displays.

Other methods could be viable of course. Opinions on this and other conventional victory suggestions?

EDIT : fixed typos and posting link to wargame where this technique was used. funny, the Admiral in charge's position lines up pretty well with certain defeatists in the game and on these forums... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

Swarm tactics can be countered by a more effective screen.  PT boats swarming your carriers?  Put your more of your own PT boats in the water.  Fighters destroying your Reapers?  Send up more occuli.  While this tactic might work initially, it's shelf life is starkly limited.

Modifié par General User, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:31 .

[legion999]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

There are more Reaper capital ships than there are dreadnoughts, so swarming them won't work.

The Reapers have superior:
Numbers
Weapons
Armour
Engines
Range

You cannot win conventionally. A few battles perhaps, but not the war.

Nope.
Yes.
Nope.
Yes.
Even.

And the point of the OP was to swarm Reapers with Fighters, Frigates and Crusiers.

[The Angry One]

Bushido Effect wrote...

can you refresh me please?  What is Coronati?  is it mentioned in the books? Don't remember hearing the name in the games. 

Refer to the Battle of Palaven here.

Coronati was a Turian Admiral who used proper tactics to wreak havoc on the Reaper lines, only being pushed back by sheer numbers.

But that said, I should've added that in addition to Hackett, others would feel the same.  The Asari government, Salarians, Turians.  The council themselves.

Of course they do, anyone does after such a large force scores so many initial victories.. even though as I've said the Reaper victories over the Alliance were due to massive Alliance stupidity.
Instead of concentrating on defending Arcturus Station and moving on from there they spread out their forces and guaranteed the Reapers would have the advantage.

BerzerkGene wrote....

1 Thanix cannon can give a fighter firepower rivaling said cruiser.

Well, no. A fighter's eezo core would never allow it that kind of firepower, but it should give it firepower equivalent to an Oculus.

Modifié par The Angry One, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:34 .

[TookYoCookies]

Taboo-XX wrote...

And I'm telling you you can't touch them.

At all.

That's the point.

There is nothing you can do.

Only the combined force of four Dreadnoughts will really do anything and that's difficult to do.

Bioware has stated that it is impossible without using the Crucible.

Accept this and move on.

It also says in the codex with the right weapons and tactics, you could beat the reapers conventionally. 

Bioware Fail Cannon is the only thing that made this impossible.

In order to beat the Rapers, you have to interact with a holographic child... Bad story is Bad.

Bad game design is bad.



EDIT: Oh yea, pay attention to cutscenes. No infantry with Heavy weapons.. Ever. Just 1 turian with a grenade launcher in London, fail. If bioware didnt make cannon infantry guys so f*cking stupid that they shoot at reaper ships with small arms fire, and that they shoot at center mass of the Reaper instead of  THE 4(or 5 or 6 or whatev.) LEGS ITS STANDING ON, we would have won the ground battles.  Bioware is a big fan of telling you one thing and doing/saying/showing you another.

"When the laser is Charging it opens its armor. Shoot that, its a weak point!" - Shep auto-dialogue on Rannoch.

NO. YOU F*CKING IDIOTS. IT HAS KNEES. SHOOT IT IN THE ****ING KNEES AND IT WILL FALL F*CKING DOWN.

Modifié par TookYoCookies, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:48 .

[F4H bandicoot]

legion999 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Numbers
Weapons
Armour
Engines
Range

Nope.
Yes.
Nope.
Yes.
Even.

We have have no data on numbers.
They obviously have superior weaponry
Soveriegn took a battering, no council dreadnought can take that much [Armour would include shields for me so..]
Well of course
Reapers traversed Dark space without having to stop to deposit the eezo stuff that all council ships have to do, I think they have better range.

[BerzerkGene]

Ztrobos wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...
Their last hope is Shepard, basically. As long as Shepard lives, the war can continue, its the whole point of shepard's epic speeches. Hope, either through reasonable arguments or badassery and intimidation.

Lol. Good luck to you then, and I hope noone finds out what sweet deal you passed up to save the lives of AI´s. Otherwise they´ll be gunning for Shepards blood. And by them I mean every organic being in the universe.

The way i see it: Destroy, supposedly a necessary sacrifice. While organics would agree, synthetics would not.
Control, The best out of the three actually. But Shepard still dies and the Reapers are alive.
Synthesis, utter crap that somehow physically and psychologically alters all life in the galaxy, making everyone the freaking same and adds glowing crap, while not even healing Joker's Vrolik syndrome.
However i'm saying even choosing is unescessary, call in someone to blow up the brat. Hell, don't build the ctupid giant battery.

[Conniving_Eagle]

BerzerkGene wrote...

Ztrobos wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...
Their last hope is Shepard, basically. As long as Shepard lives, the war can continue, its the whole point of shepard's epic speeches. Hope, either through reasonable arguments or badassery and intimidation.

Lol. Good luck to you then, and I hope noone finds out what sweet deal you passed up to save the lives of AI´s. Otherwise they´ll be gunning for Shepards blood. And by them I mean every organic being in the universe.

The way i see it: Destroy, supposedly a necessary sacrifice. While organics would agree, synthetics would not.
Control, The best out of the three actually. But Shepard still dies and the Reapers are alive.
Synthesis, utter crap that somehow physically and psychologically alters all life in the galaxy, making everyone the freaking same and adds glowing crap, while not even healing Joker's Vrolik syndrome.
However i'm saying even choosing is unescessary, call in someone to blow up the brat. Hell, don't build the ctupid giant battery.

I'm not sure how arbitrary can be regarded as necessary.

Destroy is the least evil of the three, but they are all terrible. There is no 'best' ending. The best ending is where the Reapers get their asses handed to them by our war assets.

[The Angry One]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

We have have no data on numbers.

We know they do not have sufficient numbers to take Kahje with defences up, or overrun Salarian space.
This is why I say guessing numbers of 20k Reapers is pure fantasy.

Modifié par The Angry One, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:51 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

I'd just like to say this: Capital Ships have to lower their mass to that of cruisers if they wish to land on most planets (in some cases even lower, depending on the planet's gravity, for example, the idea of Reaper ships on Dekunna is laughable). During the final mission on Rannoch we discover one of the Reapers' main weaknesses - their main gun is very vulnerable, it isn't protected by kinetic barriers. It took a small group few ships, NOT THE ENTIRE FLEET like some people like to think, to destroy that Reaper.

Unfortunately, because everyone in this cycle is so ****ing stupid, this is completely dismissed afterwards. There is no codex update of Reaper vulnerabilities, Shepard doesn't report to Hackett so that Alliance forces can start utilizing this tactic against the Reapers, etc. Look at how they handled the Reaper on earth, just randomly fire at it, yeah that's sure effective. It would take one Cain, ONE CAIN, to destroy a Destroyer while its main gun is charging, and it could probably mess up a dreadnought pretty bad (I have a belief that the back/underside is also a more vulnerable exterior).

Conventional Victory = Impossible was only [arguably] established in the third game.

[Conniving_Eagle]

The Angry One wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

We have have no data on numbers.

We know they do not have sufficient numbers to take Kahje with defences up, or overrun Salarian space.
This is why I say guessing numbers of 20k Reapers is pure fantasy.

Maybe the Reapers think organics never die and there are 30 billion people on Earth...

[BerzerkGene]

The Angry One wrote...

I'd argue that the Reapers are only unbeatable in ME3 by plot induced stupidity, improper tactics and a gross exaggeration of Reaper numbers.

I find this defeatist talk of inevitability depressing and it makes me wonder why so many readily accept this.

BerzerkGene wrote...

Yeah...Shepard's radio still works, call in joker, thanix the crap out of starkid, see how he feels about that.
Killing him at worst would put the reapers under their own control(who knows what happens then) and at best, cripple them.

At the very least, responding to "The cycle continues." with "If the cycle is going to continue, it'll do so without YOU." would make for one hell of a last stand.

I agree. That would be badass. Order the entire fleet to destroy the citadel, people alive or not be damned. It would god damn epic. See how he feels when HIS survival is at stake.

The Angry One wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

This
thread is great for a laugh. It's always amusing when people try to
bring in military expertise when they have none. Bringing up examples
like the Millennium Challenge only heightens the hilarity.


I expect a good laugh after work today when I can read through all of this.

Well now you know what it feels like whenever I read one of your posts.

Ouch.
I don't have military expertise, none, i just play lots of videogames that rely on the same principles. Plus any idiot can see Hackett is a horrible tactician. I have no idea what the Millenium challenge is though.

[BerzerkGene]

The Angry One wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote....

1 Thanix cannon can give a fighter firepower rivaling said cruiser.

Well, no. A fighter's eezo core would never allow it that kind of firepower, but it should give it firepower equivalent to an Oculus.

Well we're never really told how much power it uses, but every five seconds for a pair seems fast, so perhaps fighter mounted ones would have less range and longer charge time?

[Ztrobos]

The Angry One wrote...


Refer to the Battle of Palaven here.

There´s a story from WW2 that one german tank commander and his crew destroyed over forty allied tanks and numerous ground-placements by himself. Does´nt mean that everyone can be expected to do that. The Reapers are stronger and smarter, the only way to achieve some victories is to do something completely unexpected and daring.

Can´t win a war like that.

[Zso_Zso]

The star-brat is only a holographic projection, but the reaper-control super-AI is running in the hardware of the citadel that much is clear. So all they had to do is blow up the citadel. Then all reaper forces would fall into chaos and their "urge" to wipe out organics would simply stop.

Don't tell me the allience did not have enough nukes or firepower to blow up the citadel when it is right above earth.

[The Angry One]

BerzerkGene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote....

1 Thanix cannon can give a fighter firepower rivaling said cruiser.

Well, no. A fighter's eezo core would never allow it that kind of firepower, but it should give it firepower equivalent to an Oculus.

Well we're never really told how much power it uses, but every five seconds for a pair seems fast, so perhaps fighter mounted ones would have less range and longer charge time?

The codex entry for thanix cannons suggests that the power of a thanix cannon is proportional to the size of the element zero core. This being why dreadnought main gun sized thanix cannons exist at all.
I'd imagine fighters and drones should at least be able to harass and punch holes in destroyers, if not be a minor threat to capital ships.

[BerzerkGene]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Ztrobos wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...
Their last hope is Shepard, basically. As long as Shepard lives, the war can continue, its the whole point of shepard's epic speeches. Hope, either through reasonable arguments or badassery and intimidation.

Lol. Good luck to you then, and I hope noone finds out what sweet deal you passed up to save the lives of AI´s. Otherwise they´ll be gunning for Shepards blood. And by them I mean every organic being in the universe.

The way i see it: Destroy, supposedly a necessary sacrifice. While organics would agree, synthetics would not.
Control, The best out of the three actually. But Shepard still dies and the Reapers are alive.
Synthesis, utter crap that somehow physically and psychologically alters all life in the galaxy, making everyone the freaking same and adds glowing crap, while not even healing Joker's Vrolik syndrome.
However i'm saying even choosing is unescessary, call in someone to blow up the brat. Hell, don't build the ctupid giant battery.

I'm not sure how arbitrary can be regarded as necessary.

Destroy is the least evil of the three, but they are all terrible. There is no 'best' ending. The best ending is where the Reapers get their asses handed to them by our war assets.

Like i said, 'supposedly'.
I don't agree with the sacrifice of an entire race, especially since its the only way Shepard survives, makes it seem very selfish, intended or not.
I would say control is the least 'evil', but you can't know what happens in the future, if its good or bad, plus the reapers survive, which i dislike. After repairing the relays i'd fly them into  a black hole.

Yeah, that would be the best ending. You get to see them in action too. That really annoyed me. Makes the extra 5 hours i spent running around the galaxy seem like a complete waste.

[BDelacroix]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Dude.

This will not, and never can, apply to the Reapers.

You cannot win conventionally. You are told this twice before going to the Citadel for the first time.

You either use the Crucible that you have permission to use, or you die.

It's really ****ing simple.

I realise that the use of explicitives means you are fed up with the argument and don't agree but I have to say the only real reason the player can't win conventionally is because the writers didn't want the player to.  Not because of some physical law of the universe.