1098 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Ztrobos wrote...

There´s a story from WW2 that one german tank commander and his crew destroyed over forty allied tanks and numerous ground-placements by himself. Does´nt mean that everyone can be expected to do that. The Reapers are stronger and smarter, the only way to achieve some victories is to do something completely unexpected and daring.

Can´t win a war like that.

The point is these are very easy tactics to implement. Hackett didn't even try. He spread out his forces then let entire fleets die to save his own hide.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Shepard doesn't even survive in destroy, actually.

[tyrvas]

Skirata129 wrote...

it struck me that a method of overhwelming the Reapar fleet has already been exploited in a modern military excercise to great effect. In an exercise pitting a low tech force against a carrier battlegroup, the Opfor commander achieved victory by swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers.

Could not this same idea be extrapolated to the mass effect universe? Take many small, lightly armored and fast fighters and frigates, arm them with thanix cannons and mob the Reapers. Sure many of them would be shot down, but the Reaper capital ships would be swarmed with the effective firepower of several hundred dreadnaughts, without being presented with the relatively slow and large target a dreadnaught usually displays.

Other methods could be viable of course. Opinions on this and other conventional victory suggestions?

EDIT : fixed typos and posting link to wargame where this technique was used. funny, the Admiral in charge's position lines up pretty well with certain defeatists in the game and on these forums... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

This would have never worked in ME, ME2 or ME3.

WHY? You may question..... simplez....

ME
The best ships that would more or less meet your requirements are the Turian fighters, frigates and the prototype Human/Turian built SSV-SR1 (Normandy). During that time only the SR1 had the
'required' firepower to blast a Capitol Reaper (Sovereign) and that was after it took a real beating 
by the 5th Fleet.

ME2
SSV-SR1 destroyed by Collector ship, Not even a Reaper. 
A bigger better build of the SR was made by Cerberus, the SR2, BUT it also required all round 
upgrades to withstand a similar attack and be able to fight back.

ME3
How many ships in orbit where used  to kill the lonely Destroyer class Reaper on Rannoch?
All tech is being used to make the Crucible, no time to make any ships.


...NOW this may have been different if the Council would have listened to Shepard when they should have,
a very long time ago, and even so, you seem to forget that the Collectors and reapers also have fighters
which are quite lethal, the Occulus.

Modifié par tyrvas, 31 juillet 2012 - 02:07 .

[BerzerkGene]

The Angry One wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote....

1 Thanix cannon can give a fighter firepower rivaling said cruiser.

Well, no. A fighter's eezo core would never allow it that kind of firepower, but it should give it firepower equivalent to an Oculus.

Well we're never really told how much power it uses, but every five seconds for a pair seems fast, so perhaps fighter mounted ones would have less range and longer charge time?

The codex entry for thanix cannons suggests that the power of a thanix cannon is proportional to the size of the element zero core. This being why dreadnought main gun sized thanix cannons exist at all.
I'd imagine fighters and drones should at least be able to harass and punch holes in destroyers, if not be a minor threat to capital ships.

That seems fair, but the entry basically just says it can fire every five seconds and mountable on a fighter and frigate. Like many other things, its lacking in detail. Thats why it seems as though if you zoomed around with a hundred fighters you could wreck the Reaper's sh...

[F4H bandicoot]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

We have have no data on numbers.

We know they do not have sufficient numbers to take Kahje with defences up, or overrun Salarian space.
This is why I say guessing numbers of 20k Reapers is pure fantasy.

Maybe the Reapers think organics never die and there are 30 billion people on Earth...

Hell, I'm not saying there are 20k reapers anywhere, just that it's wrong to state, that we have more numbers, when the catalyst says that we our outnumbered. 
It doesn't matter if we have a few more ships, because the reapers are better in every aspect to our ships, faster, stronger. 

Heck, we don't even know what numbers they sent to kahje, the reapers [from harbingers sound files in 2] Don't seem particularly interested in the salrians or drell, So why would they sound out a large force to deal with something they arn't particularly interested in??

[tomats432]

Skirata129 wrote...

it struck me that a method of overhwelming the Reapar fleet has already been exploited in a modern military excercise to great effect. In an exercise pitting a low tech force against a carrier battlegroup, the Opfor commander achieved victory by swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers.

Could not this same idea be extrapolated to the mass effect universe? Take many small, lightly armored and fast fighters and frigates, arm them with thanix cannons and mob the Reapers. Sure many of them would be shot down, but the Reaper capital ships would be swarmed with the effective firepower of several hundred dreadnaughts, without being presented with the relatively slow and large target a dreadnaught usually displays.

Other methods could be viable of course. Opinions on this and other conventional victory suggestions?

EDIT : fixed typos and posting link to wargame where this technique was used. funny, the Admiral in charge's position lines up pretty well with certain defeatists in the game and on these forums... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

The Reapers are being swarmed, falnked all of the time - on Earth, Palaven and every world they land. All of the orbital/ground guns, missile installments are shooting at them, with fighters, frigates( with all the thanix), tanks, cannons and everything there is to shoot them at, as well. The thing is -  it won't give a conventional victory. As a turian commander stated on Palavens moon, flanking them simply doesn't work because there shields, barriers, armor is too strong. Of course, you can get a few of them down that way and it already happens in the game, Turians have destroyed alot, and in the end they did retake Palaven, but it was possible because the main force of the Reapers are stationed at Earth ( because humans will be turned in to another Reaper) and as far as I understand the other big chunk of their fleet is on the other front, which is on the borders of Asari space. Read the codex it's more or less explained there. 

About dreadnought firepower it's simple, only a dreadnought has a firepower of a dreadnought. It has it's axial gun, which is more than a kilometer long, and all kinds of missiles, thanix, javelin, guardian, laser and other weapons. A hundred frigates won't have the firepower of a dreadnoughts main gun, it's that simple.

You can think of interesting ways how to bring one or maybe ten reaper capital ships down and maybe save a planet or two ( I hope to see it in DLC), but it won't win the war, when there are thousands of them and the races of the galaxy simply doesn't have time to prepare any conventional plans they might have on a large scale, because after a year or two the survivors will simply be running away from one place to another, all of the infrastructure, main industrial centers, fleets, homeworlds and biggest colonies will be destroyed.

[legion999]

F4H bandicoot wrote...
We have have no data on numbers.
They obviously have superior weaponry
Soveriegn took a battering, no council dreadnought can take that much [Armour would include shields for me so..]
Well of course
Reapers traversed Dark space without having to stop to deposit the eezo stuff that all council ships have to do, I think they have better range.

They have fewer numbers. The most the Reapers can have is 20,000 Capital ships and since they don't get a Capital ship per cycle it's likely they have around a thousand or so. Otherwise we would have been overrun instantly.

Their armor is the material they're made of so I wouldn't count shields.

By range I meant weapon range. The range you're talking about would be engines.

[Costin_Razvan]

You want a conventional victory?

Take around half of your entire fleets to Earth, or even more then that, defeat the Reapers fleets in Orbit and thus draw the vast majority of the Reapers forces in the Galaxy to Earth.

Then send an asteroid towards the Charon Relay, blow it up, blow the Reapers up. Everyone there dies but the Reapers are left with insufficient strength to win against the remainder of your forces.

[Jamie9]

The US military tested scenarios against Reaper forces?

Well, that's dedication.

[Jamie9]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You want a conventional victory?

Take around half of your entire fleets to Earth, or even more then that, defeat the Reapers fleets in Orbit and thus draw the vast majority of the Reapers forces in the Galaxy to Earth.

Then send an asteroid towards the Charon Relay, blow it up, blow the Reapers up. Everyone there dies but the Reapers are left with insufficient strength to win against the remainder of your forces.

They'd FTL away.

[Ztrobos]

BDelacroix wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Dude.

This will not, and never can, apply to the Reapers.

You cannot win conventionally. You are told this twice before going to the Citadel for the first time.

You either use the Crucible that you have permission to use, or you die.

It's really ****ing simple.

I realise that the use of explicitives means you are fed up with the argument and don't agree but I have to say the only real reason the player can't win conventionally is because the writers didn't want the player to.  Not because of some physical law of the universe.

It´s acctually the wrighters fault for making the Reapers too damn powerful.

"Hey Bioware, take it down a notch, will ya!"

[Conniving_Eagle]

Jamie9 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You want a conventional victory?

Take around half of your entire fleets to Earth, or even more then that, defeat the Reapers fleets in Orbit and thus draw the vast majority of the Reapers forces in the Galaxy to Earth.

Then send an asteroid towards the Charon Relay, blow it up, blow the Reapers up. Everyone there dies but the Reapers are left with insufficient strength to win against the remainder of your forces.

They'd FTL away.

Wrong. The Reapers aren't smart enough to FTL away.

[The Angry One]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Hell, I'm not saying there are 20k reapers anywhere, just that it's wrong to state, that we have more numbers, when the catalyst says that we our outnumbered. 
It doesn't matter if we have a few more ships, because the reapers are better in every aspect to our ships, faster, stronger.

And unused to taking losses or fighting an enemy on their terms.

Heck, we don't even know what numbers they sent to kahje, the reapers [from harbingers sound files in 2] Don't seem particularly interested in the salrians or drell, So why would they sound out a large force to deal with something they arn't particularly interested in??

If the Reapers weren't interested in Kahje, they wouldn't have come up with an elaborate plan to sabotage it's defences. They obviously wanted it, and do take it if their plan succeeds.

The Salarians are an advanced Council race. Second only to the Asari. The idea that the Reapers have no interest in them at all is patently ridiculous, and contradicts the Catalyst's stated plan of preservation.

[Jamie9]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...
Wrong. The Reapers aren't smart enough to FTL away.

Well, maybe not in ME3...

[Thaa_solon]

Nah....the game doesn't let you win by regular means, but with the art of magic then anything is possible YaY...

[BerzerkGene]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

We have have no data on numbers.

We know they do not have sufficient numbers to take Kahje with defences up, or overrun Salarian space.
This is why I say guessing numbers of 20k Reapers is pure fantasy.

Maybe the Reapers think organics never die and there are 30 billion people on Earth...

Hell, I'm not saying there are 20k reapers anywhere, just that it's wrong to state, that we have more numbers, when the catalyst says that we our outnumbered. 
It doesn't matter if we have a few more ships, because the reapers are better in every aspect to our ships, faster, stronger. 

Heck, we don't even know what numbers they sent to kahje, the reapers [from harbingers sound files in 2] Don't seem particularly interested in the salrians or drell, So why would they sound out a large force to deal with something they arn't particularly interested in??

Well most people seem to bring up that we must be horribly outnnumbered, i think that was the point. We don't simply have a few more ships, the Quarian flotilla by itself dwarfs the reaper fleet.
If you go by anything the Catalyst says, you've lost. He's either lying his ass off or intentionally leaving out information. One thing holds true though, he wants you to pick these choices. Making things seem hopeless helps with that.

Reaper ships have 1 big advantage, raw power from their cores. Their weapons are devestating, but not the easiest to aim. The real issue if getting past their shields, which is entirely possible.

While you should remember the drell live with the hanar, taking out the Salarians makes sense, they are excellent tacticians, have an advanced fleet(or a few, i'm unsure about actual numbers) and would be perfect for repeats of the Miracle of palaven. However, to get to the Salarians, you have to go through the hanar and their drell special forces.

[F4H bandicoot]

legion999 wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...
We have have no data on numbers.
They obviously have superior weaponry
Soveriegn took a battering, no council dreadnought can take that much [Armour would include shields for me so..]
Well of course
Reapers traversed Dark space without having to stop to deposit the eezo stuff that all council ships have to do, I think they have better range.

They have fewer numbers. The most the Reapers can have is 20,000 Capital ships and since they don't get a Capital ship per cycle it's likely they have around a thousand or so. Otherwise we would have been overrun instantly.

Their armor is the material they're made of so I wouldn't count shields.

By range I meant weapon range. The range you're talking about would be engines.

They also make destroyers and occuli, We are told, by reaper boy himself, we are outnumbered.
You must also remeber that the not making a reaper every cycle is based off the fact EDI speculatecd there was no prothean reaper due to the collectors.
With the plan of taking the Citadel and shutting off the Relays, Reapers arn't going to be losing all that many ships in an 'average' cycle either. Not nearly as many as we take out in this cycle.

Why not, Armour and shields are all part of the ships defences, you have to get through the shields first, and as we see with Sovereign, thats a ****ing tough thing to do.

Well that's all good then

[ThaDPG]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The notion that our Military could defeat the reapers conventionally is laughable.

So is space magic.

Of the two I prefer the one with more pew-pews

lol, same here

[BerzerkGene]

tomats432 wrote...

The Reapers are being swarmed, falnked all of the time - on Earth, Palaven and every world they land. All of the orbital/ground guns, missile installments are shooting at them, with fighters, frigates( with all the thanix), tanks, cannons and everything there is to shoot them at, as well. The thing is -  it won't give a conventional victory. As a turian commander stated on Palavens moon, flanking them simply doesn't work because there shields, barriers, armor is too strong. Of course, you can get a few of them down that way and it already happens in the game, Turians have destroyed alot, and in the end they did retake Palaven, but it was possible because the main force of the Reapers are stationed at Earth ( because humans will be turned in to another Reaper) and as far as I understand the other big chunk of their fleet is on the other front, which is on the borders of Asari space. Read the codex it's more or less explained there. 

About dreadnought firepower it's simple, only a dreadnought has a firepower of a dreadnought. It has it's axial gun, which is more than a kilometer long, and all kinds of missiles, thanix, javelin, guardian, laser and other weapons. A hundred frigates won't have the firepower of a dreadnoughts main gun, it's that simple.

You can think of interesting ways how to bring one or maybe ten reaper capital ships down and maybe save a planet or two ( I hope to see it in DLC), but it won't win the war, when there are thousands of them and the races of the galaxy simply doesn't have time to prepare any conventional plans they might have on a large scale, because after a year or two the survivors will simply be running away from one place to another, all of the infrastructure, main industrial centers, fleets, homeworlds and biggest colonies will be destroyed.

First up, Thanix cannons are never used, at all. Thanix missles, are(although how liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero can be applied to a missle is beyond me).
No, 4 cruisers have the same firepower as a dreadnought. This is all without thanix weaponry. A Dreadnought scaled Thanix would be enormous, at least as powerful as a reaper...beam.
After a year or two...thats underestimating...everything. Liara said it would 100 years, even if they lost. a century is not 2 years.
Also, infastructure: Meet the geth. Tireless machines who can run complex machinery by themselves(now that each one is sentient) They live in space stations, they mine asteroids. They would be perfect for setting up stealth installations to build hordes of ships unnoticed.

[The Angry One]

The Geth could also help with automation or remote piloting (as they do with their fighter squadrons), so we could run ships with less/no crew in order to reduce casualties.
In fact why the hell fighters are being piloted by people and not VIs is never explained.

Modifié par The Angry One, 31 juillet 2012 - 02:26 .

[BerzerkGene]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

legion999 wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...
We have have no data on numbers.
They obviously have superior weaponry
Soveriegn took a battering, no council dreadnought can take that much [Armour would include shields for me so..]
Well of course
Reapers traversed Dark space without having to stop to deposit the eezo stuff that all council ships have to do, I think they have better range.

They have fewer numbers. The most the Reapers can have is 20,000 Capital ships and since they don't get a Capital ship per cycle it's likely they have around a thousand or so. Otherwise we would have been overrun instantly.

Their armor is the material they're made of so I wouldn't count shields.

By range I meant weapon range. The range you're talking about would be engines.

They also make destroyers and occuli, We are told, by reaper boy himself, we are outnumbered.
You must also remeber that the not making a reaper every cycle is based off the fact EDI speculatecd there was no prothean reaper due to the collectors.
With the plan of taking the Citadel and shutting off the Relays, Reapers arn't going to be losing all that many ships in an 'average' cycle either. Not nearly as many as we take out in this cycle.

Why not, Armour and shields are all part of the ships defences, you have to get through the shields first, and as we see with Sovereign, thats a ****ing tough thing to do.

Well that's all good then

20,000 is a total estimate, destroyers are shown to be remarkably easy to beat, which makes sense, since they're about 1/10 the size of their larger brothers. the oculi are just meh, a fighter can shoot them down easily enough, and larger ships kill them with a single shot, not impressive.
Its not really speculation, its due to the quad strand dna structure, it made them unfit for process.
They lost a fair few in the prothean cycle, then there was the cycle that had at least one planet with a gun so large it destroyed a capital ship, then theres the levithan of dis...
The citadel trap is so there would be no chance of survival for the galaxy, and fewer losses for the Reapers.

With sovereign, the fifth fleet by itself had to do that, with 'conventional' weaponry, no javelin missles, no thanix cannons(seeing as they were engineered from sovereign) however, once the shields are down they seem relatively easy to damage. Oddly enough destroyers seem to have stronger armour, but Cap Ships better shields.

[tyrvas]

@ OP, 
forgot to mention in my other post about the Hades Cannons;

Mass Effect Wiki - Hades Cannon
The Hades Cannon is an anti-aircraft weapon of Reaper design.
It is a massive directed-energy cannon, capable of being mounted on the four-legged chassis of a
Destroyer-class Reaper.
Several Hades Cannons were utilized by the Reapers during their assault and occupation of Earth.
They are highly accurate as well as powerful, as they are capable of shooting down craft as small
and nimble as a UT-47A Kodiak Drop Shuttle. During the final battle for Earth

 

Modifié par tyrvas, 31 juillet 2012 - 02:32 .

[BerzerkGene]

The Angry One wrote...

The Geth could also help with automation or remote piloting (as they do with their fighter squadrons), so we could run ships with less/no crew in order to reduce casualties.
In fact why the hell fighters are being piloted by people and not VIs is never explained.

Yes exactly! Geth=super useful.

Well EDI says that Organic though processes are hard to anticipate, we do crazy stuff, otherwise the ship with the best hardware would win. Sooo i guess dodging and manouvering is better when your enemy had no idea what the hell you might do. Basically its why Joker still drives. I think.

[BerzerkGene]

tyrvas wrote...

@ OP, 
forgot to mention in my other post that the Destroyer class Reapers can also carry AA guns if required;

Mass Effect Wiki - Hades Cannon
The Hades Cannon is an anti-aircraft weapon of Reaper design.
It is a massive directed-energy cannon, capable of being mounted on the four-legged chassis of a
Destroyer-class Reaper.
Several Hades Cannons were utilized by the Reapers during their assault and occupation of Earth.
They are highly accurate as well as powerful, as they are capable of shooting down craft as small
and nimble as a UT-47A Kodiak Drop Shuttle. During the final battle for Earth

 

Woah, never bring that up, someone will leap on you for it.
Either "Its not a reaper!"
or "a Cain can one shot a Reaper!"

[tyrvas]

BerzerkGene wrote...

tyrvas wrote...

@ OP, 
forgot to mention in my other post that the Destroyer class Reapers can also carry AA guns if required;

Mass Effect Wiki - Hades Cannon
The Hades Cannon is an anti-aircraft weapon of Reaper design.
It is a massive directed-energy cannon, capable of being mounted on the four-legged chassis of a
Destroyer-class Reaper.
Several Hades Cannons were utilized by the Reapers during their assault and occupation of Earth.
They are highly accurate as well as powerful, as they are capable of shooting down craft as small
and nimble as a UT-47A Kodiak Drop Shuttle. During the final battle for Earth

 

Woah, never bring that up, someone will leap on you for it.
Either "Its not a reaper!"
or "a Cain can one shot a Reaper!"

Edited my original post bro.

Anyway the Hades Cannon is Anti-Air, and Shepard is Shepard,
to get there and take the shot you had to kill loads of enemies.