1098 réponses à ce sujet

[Skirata129]

they are also incapable of replenishing their ships without direct attacks on major worlds. so we Know where to station large numbers of fighters.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

ME in any way being serious died with the Green explosion.

So let's slap some Thannix cannons on those Pyjaks because it'd be better than what we got.

[DirtyPhoenix]

How exactly do you plan on installing giant dreadnought guns on tiny fighters? And what about their amour? Fitting dreadnought guns on something doesnt make them dreadnoughts. You need the arour too. Like what happened with Quarian liveships. Dreadnought guns are slow-firing as I remember. So these retrofitted fighters would be piecemeal for the reaper fighters (occuli).

This idea is akin to fitting tank guns on bikes xD

[OmegaXI]

Sorry man the Crucible is the only way to defeat the, its been established in the lore and throughout the game.

Also can you please provide the link and the numbers of this military drill, aswell as how many of the boats where wiped out, and how many of these test runs failed? What were the conditions during the drill and what were outside factors to effect it.

You keep beating these drums of a convential victory but show me the numbers,plans, and proof from the game or the codex that can back of your claims. The Turians with the Largest military and Fleet backed up by the Krogans couldn't hold Pavalen.

Also once the Reapers controling or destroying the means of production how would the Races of the Galaxy beat them conventially? Play the game again and listen to the news reports on the Citidel and listen to how much ground is being lost. Theres a point in the game where over 60% of habital territory is loss or under Reaper control.

Casulaities are as high as 85% in some cases.

Sorry man convential victory is not possible not matter how much you want it to be.

[AlanC9]

Skirata129 wrote...

they are also incapable of replenishing their ships without direct attacks on major worlds. so we Know where to station large numbers of fighters.

 

Right. But if the Reapers really need to, they can bring their entire fleet to bear on an individual planet. You really think it's possible to station a fighter force capable of defeating the Reaper armada at every major world? That's absurd.

Japan tried something like what you're proposing back in 1944. Caused losses, didn't win the war.

Modifié par AlanC9, 31 juillet 2012 - 05:29 .

[Skirata129]

the theory is proven as Thanix cannons were installed on the Normandy, showing that ships significantly below dreadnaught class are perfectly capable of carrying them. also, not worrying too much about armor makes sense. It reduces weight, making the ships more maneuverable, makes them less resource intensive and time consuming to crank out one after another, and besides, what does armor matter? a hit from a capital ship is going to bring down a fighter no matter what.

[Conniving_Eagle]

I'd just like to say this: Capital Ships have to lower their mass to that of cruisers if they wish to land on most planets (in some cases even lower, depending on the planet's gravity, for example, the idea of Reaper ships on Dekunna is laughable). During the final mission on Rannoch we discover one of the Reapers' main weaknesses - their main gun is very vulnerable, it isn't protected by kinetic barriers. It took a small group few ships, NOT THE ENTIRE FLEET like some people like to think, to destroy that Reaper.

Unfortunately, because everyone in this cycle is so ****ing stupid, this is completely dismissed afterwards. There is no codex update of Reaper vulnerabilities, Shepard doesn't report to Hackett so that Alliance forces can start utilizing this tactic against the Reapers, etc. Look at how they handled the Reaper on earth, just randomly fire at it, yeah that's sure effective. It would take one Cain, ONE CAIN, to destroy a Destroyer while its main gun is charging, and it could probably mess up a dreadnought pretty bad (I have a belief that the back/underside is also a more vulnerable exterior).

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I still support using time travel as a valid alternative to using the plot device.

[Eterna]

The notion that our Military could defeat the reapers conventionally is laughable.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Eterna5 wrote...

The notion that our Military could defeat the reapers conventionally is laughable.

So is space magic.

Of the two I prefer the one with more pew-pews

[MegaSovereign]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Dude.

This will not, and never can, apply to the Reapers.

You cannot win conventionally. You are told this twice before going to the Citadel for the first time.

You either use the Crucible that you have permission to use, or you die.

It's really ****ing simple.

And how many times were you told that going through the Omega-4 relay was a suicide mission.  I never lost a soul (even your waifu, who I find to be quite annoying "I was engineered to be perfect")

It was considered a suicide mission because there couldn't be any room for failure.

With the Reapers, there is quite literally not enough resources to win conventionally. Nevermind the fact that the Alliance and Council have done little to nothing to prepare for the Reapers....

[satunnainen]

Skirata129 wrote...

it struck me that a method of overhwelming the Repar fleet has already been exploited in a modern military excercise to great effect. In an excercise pitting a low tech force against a carrier battlegroup, the Opfor commander achieved victory by swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers.

Could not this same idea be extrapolated to the mass effect universe? Take many small, lightly armored and fast fighters and frigates, arm them with thanix cannon's and mob the Reaper's. sure many of them would be shot down, but they would be getting swarmed with the effective firepower of several hundred dreadnaughts, without being presented with the relatively slow and large target a dreadnaught usually presents.

Other method's could be viable of course. Opinions on this and other conventional victory suggestions?

Problem with this idea is, that for a powerful enough gun you will need a big enough powersource (mass effect core). You just cannot fit that in a small vessel. If you put a small thanix cannon in a fighter it wont have enough power to do anything significant against reaper shield. That is the real reason you need the biggest ships to destroy a reaper.

[dreman9999]

The problem the op does not realize is the reapers are already using his tactic.... The oculis.

http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus

And the reapers make them faster then we make fighters and in swarms at a time.

[dirty console peasant]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

SO GIVE SHEPARD COMMAND OF THE FLEETS.  It really is that easy,  would add a nice SM like final fight as well.

It doesn't work that way.

The variables are NOT the same.

It is an entirely new set of circumstances that you have to account for.

So all the EMS that I have after 3100 is and should be completly redundant and useless?  Shepard has built a career on doing the impossible s/he got to Illos, s/he (at least in my playthroughs) survived a fvcking SUICIDE MISSION without losing any crewmembers.  Suddenly after knowing about what will happen for 3 YEARS s/he decides to lose it and grieve for some kid that won the fvcking Darwin Award "You can't help me" SERIOUSLY?  The reapers are not gods, they can be killed.  Case in point Nazara, "Miracle at Palaven", Tuchanka, Rannoch, Earth.  If there are enough forces brought to bear against them they CAN BE DEFEATED.  Check out this Codex entry
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Vulnerabilities

My previous point still stands.

Modifié par Shepard Cmdr, 31 juillet 2012 - 05:33 .

[Skirata129]

OmegaXI wrote...

Sorry man the Crucible is the only way to defeat the, its been established in the lore and throughout the game.

Also can you please provide the link and the numbers of this military drill, aswell as how many of the boats where wiped out, and how many of these test runs failed? What were the conditions during the drill and what were outside factors to effect it.

You keep beating these drums of a convential victory but show me the numbers,plans, and proof from the game or the codex that can back of your claims. The Turians with the Largest military and Fleet backed up by the Krogans couldn't hold Pavalen.

Also once the Reapers controling or destroying the means of production how would the Races of the Galaxy beat them conventially? Play the game again and listen to the news reports on the Citidel and listen to how much ground is being lost. Theres a point in the game where over 60% of habital territory is loss or under Reaper control.

Casulaities are as high as 85% in some cases.

Sorry man convential victory is not possible not matter how much you want it to be.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 the Opfor commander really annoyed the people who administered the game as he wasn't supposed to be able to win.

Also, in regards to holding major worlds, just station the fighter groups by mass relays, they respond to threats against any of the major worlds. Japan tried this strategy and failed, largely because they did not posess the ability to reinforce anylocation within minutes with the full force of their fleet. this is possible in the mass Effect universe. a more correct metaphor puts the Reapers as Japan, as it is the Galactic alliance that hols the greatest capacity for manufacturing.

[MegaSovereign]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

SO GIVE SHEPARD COMMAND OF THE FLEETS.  It really is that easy,  would add a nice SM like final fight as well.

It doesn't work that way.

The variables are NOT the same.

It is an entirely new set of circumstances that you have to account for.

So all the EMS that I have after 3100 is and should be completly redundant and useless?  Shepard has built a career on doing the impossible s/he got to Illos, s/he (at least in my playthroughs) survived a fvcking SUICIDE MISSION without losing any crewmembers.  Suddenly after knowing about what will happen for 3 YEARS s/he decides to lose it and grieve for some kid that won the fvcking Darwin Award "You can't help me" SERIOUSLY?  The reapers are not gods, they can be killed.  Case in point Nazara, "Miracle at Palaven", Tuchanka, Rannoch, Earth.  If there are enough forces brought to bear against them they CAN BE DEFEATED.  Check out this Codex entry
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Vulnerabilities

My previous point still stands.

After 3100, it is redundant.

EMS doesn't directly affect the Crucible's capabilities. It only affects how well the united fleets delivered/defended the Crucible.

[dirty console peasant]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

SO GIVE SHEPARD COMMAND OF THE FLEETS.  It really is that easy,  would add a nice SM like final fight as well.

It doesn't work that way.

The variables are NOT the same.

It is an entirely new set of circumstances that you have to account for.

So all the EMS that I have after 3100 is and should be completly redundant and useless?  Shepard has built a career on doing the impossible s/he got to Illos, s/he (at least in my playthroughs) survived a fvcking SUICIDE MISSION without losing any crewmembers.  Suddenly after knowing about what will happen for 3 YEARS s/he decides to lose it and grieve for some kid that won the fvcking Darwin Award "You can't help me" SERIOUSLY?  The reapers are not gods, they can be killed.  Case in point Nazara, "Miracle at Palaven", Tuchanka, Rannoch, Earth.  If there are enough forces brought to bear against them they CAN BE DEFEATED.  Check out this Codex entry
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Vulnerabilities

My previous point still stands.

After 3100, it is redundant.

EMS doesn't directly affect the Crucible's capabilities. It only affects how well the united fleets delivered/defended the Crucible.

Exactly, the more EMS you have the more fleets you have and the more chance you have of kicking the Reapers back to Dark Space.

[commanderkai]

Although it might be feasible, the problem is that the major industrial worlds basically fall, one after the other. Khar'Shan, Earth, Palaven, Thessia, all fall rather quickly in the game, or at least become contested by the Reapers. It'd be highly difficult to replace that many ships with such advanced weapon technology.

[andy6915]

Skirata129 wrote...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 the Opfor commander really annoyed the people who administered the game as he wasn't supposed to be able to win.

Also, in regards to holding major worlds, just station the fighter groups by mass relays, they respond to threats against any of the major worlds. Japan tried this strategy and failed, largely because they did not posess the ability to reinforce anylocation within minutes with the full force of their fleet. this is possible in the mass Effect universe. a more correct metaphor puts the Reapers as Japan, as it is the Galactic alliance that hols the greatest capacity for manufacturing.

Hahaha, yeah, you're really going to guard the mass relays from the Reapers so they can't use them! Right, of course, that's a great idea!
/sarcasm

Nevermind that they can literally fly through our ships like they're made of tissue.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Skirata129 wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

Sorry man the Crucible is the only way to defeat the, its been established in the lore and throughout the game.

Also can you please provide the link and the numbers of this military drill, aswell as how many of the boats where wiped out, and how many of these test runs failed? What were the conditions during the drill and what were outside factors to effect it.

You keep beating these drums of a convential victory but show me the numbers,plans, and proof from the game or the codex that can back of your claims. The Turians with the Largest military and Fleet backed up by the Krogans couldn't hold Pavalen.

Also once the Reapers controling or destroying the means of production how would the Races of the Galaxy beat them conventially? Play the game again and listen to the news reports on the Citidel and listen to how much ground is being lost. Theres a point in the game where over 60% of habital territory is loss or under Reaper control.

Casulaities are as high as 85% in some cases.

Sorry man convential victory is not possible not matter how much you want it to be.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 the Opfor commander really annoyed the people who administered the game as he wasn't supposed to be able to win.

Also, in regards to holding major worlds, just station the fighter groups by mass relays, they respond to threats against any of the major worlds. Japan tried this strategy and failed, largely because they did not posess the ability to reinforce anylocation within minutes with the full force of their fleet. this is possible in the mass Effect universe. a more correct metaphor puts the Reapers as Japan, as it is the Galactic alliance that hols the greatest capacity for manufacturing.

Yeah, another thing with Dreadnoughts, dreadnoughts aren't the end all - be all space craft. They can easily be swarmed, this happened to Sovereign on the Citadel, even when it was assisted by a Geth fleet. This is how a lot of capital ships were destroyed, if they were isolated or traveled in small groups. It doesn't work in the battle for earth, but for some reason nobody has heard the concept of flanking or diverting Capital Ships' fire, just another example where lore and tactics were thrown out the window.

[Undead Han]

Once the Reapers invade, it is too late to overhaul your fleet. You have to fight with the fleet you have rather than the fleet you want.

Upgrading all of your fighters and frigates with Thanix cannons would take years.

[Rustedness]

It would work if the writers wanted it to. They did not want it to. That simple unfortunately *sadface*

[Skirata129]

andy69156915 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 the Opfor commander really annoyed the people who administered the game as he wasn't supposed to be able to win.

Also,
in regards to holding major worlds, just station the fighter groups by
mass relays, they respond to threats against any of the major worlds.
Japan tried this strategy and failed, largely because they did not
posess the ability to reinforce anylocation within minutes with the full
force of their fleet. this is possible in the mass Effect universe. a
more correct metaphor puts the Reapers as Japan, as it is the Galactic
alliance that hols the greatest capacity for manufacturing.

Hahaha,
yeah, you're really going to guard the mass relays from the Reapers so
they can't use them! Right, of course, that's a great idea!
/sarcasm

Nevermind that they can literally fly through our ships like they're made of tissue.

who said anything about guarding the relays? they're positioned there so as to be able to reinforce any beleaguered world quickly.

...you haven't studied much of military history or tactics, have you?

Modifié par Skirata129, 31 juillet 2012 - 05:43 .

[inko1nsiderate]

Skirata129 wrote...

...you didn't even read my OP did you? come up with an informed argument.

The smaller ships can't get past the kinetic barriers of a Reaper Dreadnought, regardless of number, if you are suggested sending boarding parties onto a Dreadnought then Indoctrination is a problem.  There is probably a reason why they don't arm things smaller than crusiers with Thanix canons.  Remember the Normandy SR-2?  Had a huge Eezo core?  Yeah, and remember that dialogue about how the new thanix canons were murder on the power systems?  And the SR-2 is probably the most advanced cruiser in the galaxy... 

You've added nothing to this discusssion despite coming up with an interesting bit of trivia.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 31 juillet 2012 - 05:44 .

[MegaSovereign]

Exactly, the more EMS you have the more fleets you have and the more chance you have of kicking the Reapers back to Dark Space.

According to the narrative, given what resources the galaxy has to work with, it's impossible to win conventionally. 10000+ EMS wouldn't make a difference.

The EMS mechanic isn't designed to show how ready you are to destroy the Reapers. It's designed to determine how much damage the Crucible takes.

Also, the Reapers don't retreat if they've suffered losses. This is why you can't beat them conventionally. It's not a conventional war. The Reapers will continue fighting till the last Destroyer is taken out.