1098 réponses à ce sujet

[jeffyg93]

Thaa_solon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Do reapers look like this in ME3, NO THEY DON'T because they are retconned.

In me1 sovereign said: "are numbers will darken the sky of every world"

In me2 we see a few reapers "undisclosed ammount"

In me3 they are kinda everywhere(dispersed across the galaxy) but they are not blotting out the nearest star on a habitable world

So the reaper ships don't go to the number "IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT" only "very difficult"

Please Dreman9999 use LOGIC........THINK, facts can be decietful especially if they are retconned.

I thought it was quite obvious that he was exaggerating so Shepard would fear him. Why would Sovereign have told Shepard his exact battle plans anyway.

"After taking out the Batarian homeworld, we will invade the Sol system and take Earth with approximately 100 destroyers and..."

or...

"Our numbers will darken the sky of every world."

Dear God, it's quite obvious what he meant with that line <_<

[Skirata129]

@incinerator950, nice ad hominem.

When you can't attack the argument effectively, call character into question. very admirable debating tactic.

[dreman9999]

Skirata129 wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

you failed to address my suggestion considering the Codex specifically states that four dreadnaughts can destroy a Reaper capital ship. Meaning their combined firepower, not all four running into it, so size doesn't really matter. just how much force you bring to bear.

There aren't enough dreadnoughts in the galaxy even before the war for that too have worked, hell you see a Reaper blow up an Alliance dreadnought with a few shots over Vancouver at the start of the game.

yeah, they make for big targets. which is why I suggested changing up the tactics in my OP.

But you still missing another thing all together...The reapers are already using your tactic with the oculus in far more number then we can make fighters and a much fast rate.

[incinerator950]

Thaa_solon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Do reapers look like this in ME3, NO THEY DON'T because they are retconned.

In me1 sovereign said: "are numbers will darken the sky of every world"

In me2 we see a few reapers "undisclosed ammount"

In me3 they are kinda everywhere(dispersed across the galaxy) but they are not blotting out the nearest star on a habitable world

So the reaper ships don't go to the number "IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT" only "very difficult"

Please Dreman9999 use LOGIC........THINK, facts can be decietful especially if they are retconned.

Agian, where in the story have the reapers number have been retconed?   Added, if it is a retcon, it's that of the looks of the reapers not the numbers.

Oh my science!?

If it is stated in the first game of an IMPOSSIBLE ammount of reaper, and yet in the second game we are not given numbers only a 5 sec clip of like MAX 300-400 capitol ships, then in the third game it is stated that most of them are destroyers.

So going from an unimaginable ammount of reapers to under 1000(wild guess) it that not a retconn?

Also in the first, second and half the third game it is established reapers could be defeated using GUNS, NUKES, CANNONS, BANANAS or [insert powerful weapon]

No it's just blablabla somethingsomethingsomething.......IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT THE CRUSIBLE

Mark my words, I DON'T BUY THE BS WITH THE CRUSIBLE

we can defeat them conventionally but the game doesn't allow us to.

Now please tell me, how many reapers ships(TOTAL) are established like in NUMBERS?

If you don't know then don't say

But as for now, this exchange is over

Enjoy contemplating the above stated

[Uncle Jo]

genocidal villain wrote...

3 years isn't enough time to prepare for a Reaper invasion even if they plan to mass produce thanix cannons. Plus dreadnoughts are limited by the Treaty of Farixen. The ratio for building dreadnoughts is 5:3:1. For every 5 dreadnoughts built by the Turians the Asari and Salarians are allowed to build 3 and other Citadel races are allowed to build 1. Then look at how many dreadnoughts each race has 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human; also the volus only have 1 dreadnought. That's really not enough to stop the Reapers.

The Treaty of Farixen should have been abrogated right after the Citadel battle in ME1. It's absolutely ridiculous that they didn't.
History shows you that in war times or in preparation for a war, the weapons production is greatly increased, because the economy and industry are almost exclusively devoted to this task. It can't be compared to what is produced in peace times.

When I see what the Allies and the Axis were able to achieve in WW I and II, it wouldn't have been impossible in three years to dramatically enhance and augment our fleets. Enough to stand up against the Reapers.
We also have an advantage, the Reapers have a fixed number of warships. They don't produce any whilst the harvest. So a loss is not replaced right away, it takes time and they have to finish the war first.

Again we can't win conventionally just because the writers wanted it so. And as unrealistic a conventional victory may seem, it won't beat, by far, the Crucible story.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 31 juillet 2012 - 08:31 .

[dreman9999]

Uncle Jo wrote...

genocidal villain wrote...

3 years isn't enough time to prepare for a Reaper invasion even if they plan to mass produce thanix cannons. Plus dreadnoughts are limited by the Treaty of Farixen. The ratio for building dreadnoughts is 5:3:1. For every 5 dreadnoughts built by the Turians the Asari and Salarians are allowed to build 3 and other Citadel races are allowed to build 1. Then look at how many dreadnoughts each race has 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human; also the volus only have 1 dreadnought. That's really not enough to stop the Reapers.

The Treaty of Farixen should have been abrogated right after the Citadel battle in ME1. It's absolutely ridiculous that they didn't.
History shows you that in war times or in preparation for a war, the weapons production is greatly increased, because the economy and industry are almost exclusively devoted to this task. It can't be compared to what is produce in peace times.

When I see what the Allies and the Axis were able to achieve in WW I and II, it wouldn't have been impossible in three years to dramatically enhance and augment our fleets. Enough to stand up against the Reapers.
We also have an advantage, the Reapers have a fixed number of warships. They don't produce any whilst the harvest. So a loss is not replaced right away, it takes time and they have to finish the war first.

Again we can't win conventionally just because the writers wanted it so. And as unrealistic a conventional victory may seem, it won't beat, by far, the Crucible story.

It's clear why they didn't end the treaty. They didn't believe that the reaper exsist. Blame the prothean for not understand the other race don't talk via touch.

Modifié par dreman9999, 31 juillet 2012 - 08:35 .

[Skirata129]

@incinerator950

Reported.

[incinerator950]

Skirata129 wrote...

@incinerator950, nice ad hominem.

When you can't attack the argument effectively, call character into question. very admirable debating tactic.

When the people and op in question don't sound like whiny brats or morons, I'll be more than happy to have a more intellectual conversation regarding how to turn the story into a conventional battle.  For now, listening to someone vent their frustration over the story ending diection, or an imbecile who can't see that the Story is not properly established for a conventional victory is fine enough.  Which for the record, you haven't included yourself until now again, and the fact this debate was debunked a while ago is why I hate having to bring up the same answer.

[incinerator950]

Skirata129 wrote...

@incinerator950

Reported.

[jeffyg93]

As for the OP's post.

No.

You cannot compare modern warfare to a "war" against the Reapers. There are so many other significant variables that you are ignoring. If you were to do an accurate comparison using contemporary militaries, it would be more like the entire prepared US military invading the unaware state of Rhoad Island.

The galaxy is not prepared, is outnumbered, does not have the resources, is outmatched technologically, etc. Oh, and there's the fact that you ****ing lose if you refuse to use the Crucible. There is literally no argument for conventional victory. None.

[V-rcingetorix]

dreman9999 wrote...

V-rcingetorix wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

V-rcingetorix wrote...

~snip~

And how big is the chance that you find an isolated Reaper in an open war?

Sure, Shepard found 2 isolated Reapers (Tuchanka and Rannoch), which didn't made much sense in my opinion, but that aside, there are still countless of other reapers out there and you're NOT simply going to catch them all off guard in isolation (like we caught Sovereign).

And again, the reapers outnumber and outgun is. We'll have gone through all our resources and ships longgg before we've taken out all reapers with guerillia warfare, considering that it will cost us at least a dozen of ships every single time to take down one, JUST ONE reaper dreadnought.

~snip~
Space Magic:wizard:

The only stealth system that can do it is on the normandy...EDI.  She is the only reason the normandy can hide from the reapers being that she can mimic them. The normady can hide form other ships but not reapers. No other stealth tech is more advance.

The next problem is hitting and running. Thanix cannon are the only thing that can hurt reaper we have....But we have to get close to use it.
http://masseffect.wi...er_Capabilities 
Weapons specifically designed to overcome shields, such as the Javelin, GARDIAN lasers, or the Thanix series, can bypass the barriers to some degree. The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters 

Added they have oculus drone to help protected them in swarms.

We can use hit and run tactic for a while, bu thte reaper will adapt ageints the tactic and out last us. The war is an endurace match with the reaper having endless amounts of endurace while cutting down our resources. The have a vast advantage. A convention victory is not possible.

It's already unconventional warfare with the Crucible. The trick is to mix it up.

Stealth drive is also apparently available to the Quarians as well; when you warp into the system for rendevous, there is a ship with similar stealth systems.

So, hit and run for a while until the Reapers adapt (probably by closing ranks). Then, launch fireships/asteroids and blow eezo bombs smack in the middle of the Reaper fleet. Wouldn't a smaller eezo core than a Mass Relay make a smaller explosion?

Or more simply, use EDI and/or Geth to pilot ships via microjumps right next to Reapers. From ME1, we learn from Joker: "Good? Remembering to zip your fly after leaving the bathroom is good. I just jumped us halfway across the galaxy and hit a spot the size of a needle. Now that's fantastic."

Drift was under 4.5km...spitting distance in space. With the Crucible, microjumps are no-longer possible, but probable when Geth are mixed into the calculations. 

The problem the Reapers might make is retreating out of the galaxy, to return at an unspecified location/time.

But that's just my opinion. Toss or keep, your choice.

Modifié par V-rcingetorix, 31 juillet 2012 - 08:37 .

[v TricKy v]

Uncle Jo wrote...

The Treaty of Farixen should have been abrogated right after the Citadel battle in ME1. It's absolutely ridiculous that they didn't.

The funny thing is that there is news on the Citadel in ME2 when you let the council die that says that the Turians are planning to disregard the Treaty of Farixen because they feel threatend by the Humans who are now in power(nice retcon by the way)

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...


MacGuffin 
http://www.merriam-w...onary/macguffin 
an object, event, or character in a film or story that serves to set and keep the plot in motion despite usually lacking intrinsic importance .

There's a clear importance to the crucible. Thus it's not a macguffin.

Uh, it usually but not always lacks intrinsic importance.  A MacGuffin merely has to be desired a lot.  The Holy Grail is a MacGuffin in the Indiana Jones movie.

A MacGuffin could be a large sum of money.  It does not have to be uknown.  Key word-usually.


And Mr. Godboy provides the solutions.  He didn't have to create them.  They exist in his house.  If Shepard walked up to them s/he wouldn't know what to do with them without Mr. Know It All to say what they do.

If you believe the choices are real and solve the problem of the reapers, then the kid is a DeM.  If you believe the choices could be false and may not solve the problem of the reapers, then the kid isn't a very good DeM.  The writers believe the choices solve the problem of the reapers because they show happy scenes at the end and don't show reapers eating everyone.  The kid is their DeM. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 31 juillet 2012 - 08:43 .

[AlanC9]

Maybe 3 years would have been enough, maybe not. I still don't see any way to stop the Reapers from just obliterating the Citadel races' industrial base by bombing planets, even if the Reapers had an inferior fleet.

But in any event, they simply didn't mobilize 3 years before ME3.

[Uncle Jo]

dreman9999 wrote...

It's clear why they didn't end the treaty. They didn't believe that the reaper exsist. Blame the prothean for not understand the other race don't talk via touch.

No, I blame the writers to have put themselves in a corner, while it was easy to say in ME2 or even at the beginning of ME3, that the Galaxy began (and achieved) a massive rearmament after the Sovereign's matter, in prevision of the Reapers invasion.
It wouldn't even have changed the ME2 plot. Just two lines said by any councilor and we would have been out of the whole magical super-weapon BS.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 31 juillet 2012 - 08:44 .

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

Maybe 3 years would have been enough, maybe not. I still don't see any way to stop the Reapers from just obliterating the Citadel races' industrial base by bombing planets, even if the Reapers had an inferior fleet.

But in any event, they simply didn't mobilize 3 years before ME3.

Maybe the crucible could be a time warp device (dark energy) that allows them to make ships they can take back in time to before the reapers entered the galaxy (ok, I'm not serious).

[3DandBeyond]

Uncle Jo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's clear why they didn't end the treaty. They didn't believe that the reaper exsist. Blame the prothean for not understand the other race don't talk via touch.

No, I blame the writers to have put themselves in a corner, while it was easy to say in ME2 or even at the beginning of ME3, that the Galaxy began (and achieved) a massive rearmament after the Sovereign's matter, in prevision of the Reapers invasion.
It wouldn't even have changed the ME2 plot. Just two lines said by any councilor and we would have been out of the whole magical super-weapon BS.

This exactly.  We get hung up in all this and argue because of one word the writers inserted and kept having repeated.  Impossible.  Well then why even try to do anything?  Let's all run off to Ilos.

[dreman9999]

V-rcingetorix wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

V-rcingetorix wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

V-rcingetorix wrote...

~snip~

And how big is the chance that you find an isolated Reaper in an open war?

Sure, Shepard found 2 isolated Reapers (Tuchanka and Rannoch), which didn't made much sense in my opinion, but that aside, there are still countless of other reapers out there and you're NOT simply going to catch them all off guard in isolation (like we caught Sovereign).

And again, the reapers outnumber and outgun is. We'll have gone through all our resources and ships longgg before we've taken out all reapers with guerillia warfare, considering that it will cost us at least a dozen of ships every single time to take down one, JUST ONE reaper dreadnought.

~snip~
Space Magic:wizard:

The only stealth system that can do it is on the normandy...EDI.  She is the only reason the normandy can hide from the reapers being that she can mimic them. The normady can hide form other ships but not reapers. No other stealth tech is more advance.

The next problem is hitting and running. Thanix cannon are the only thing that can hurt reaper we have....But we have to get close to use it.
http://masseffect.wi...er_Capabilities 
Weapons specifically designed to overcome shields, such as the Javelin, GARDIAN lasers, or the Thanix series, can bypass the barriers to some degree. The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters 

Added they have oculus drone to help protected them in swarms.

We can use hit and run tactic for a while, bu thte reaper will adapt ageints the tactic and out last us. The war is an endurace match with the reaper having endless amounts of endurace while cutting down our resources. The have a vast advantage. A convention victory is not possible.

It's already unconventional warfare with the Crucible. The trick is to mix it up.

Stealth drive is also apparently available to the Quarians as well; when you warp into the system for rendevous, there is a ship with similar stealth systems.

So, hit and run for a while until the Reapers adapt (probably by closing ranks). Then, launch fireships/asteroids and blow eezo bombs smack in the middle of the Reaper fleet. Wouldn't a smaller eezo core than a Mass Relay make a smaller explosion?

Or more simply, use EDI and/or Geth to pilot ships via microjumps right next to Reapers. From ME1, we learn from Joker: "Good? Remembering to zip your fly after leaving the bathroom is good. I just jumped us halfway across the galaxy and hit a spot the size of a needle. Now that's fantastic."

Drift was under 4.5km...spitting distance in space. With the Crucible, microjumps are no-longer possible, but probable when Geth are mixed into the calculations. 

The problem the Reapers might make is retreating out of the galaxy, to return at an unspecified location/time.

But that's just my opinion. Toss or keep, your choice.

Your not getting it. Current Steath systems can be tracked by reapers. Only the normady can hide from reapers because EDI can mimic reapers....
We show that the reapers can track our current stealth systems in ME2. ME2 open with the sr-1, which was in stealth mode, being shot out of the sky by the collectors that found it with no problem.
 

Also, you enzo bomb/ astrioid plan would fail because the reaper will see it coming and blow it out of the sky or just move out of the way.

And the microjump tactic fail on the count that the reaper have much more number then we do and stronger close range weapons. We would be grinding our ships in mass just to kill a few reaper ships.

[Giantdeathrobot]

You guys say these things like advanced technology and means of production come out of nowhere.

Hello. Almost every single homeworld is under siege. Earth, by far the most advanced planet in the Alliance, has fallen. Palaven if literally fighting a losing battle for its survival. All the other homeworlds save Sur'Kesh (and the Salarians aren't known for heavy industry) are under attack in some fashion, and you can bet the Reapers know what the main industrial centers are. Cannons that can harm the Reapers will require highly advanced engineering and production facility, but the Crucible being aki to a space station mens it's easier to build and much less vulnerable.

Furthermore, the Volus basically estimate that galactic economy will crash within one year. Anyone honestly believes we can possibly defeat the absurdly massive Reaper armada in one year?

As for the Reapers we kill, they are all puny Destroyers. The one on Tuchanka fell literally by chance, because the biggest living creature in the galaxy as far as we know faced it on its home turf. The one on Rannoch was isolated against the whole damn Migrant Fleet. The cannon on Earth is not a Destroyer, just an air defense system. And the one on Earth only bites the dust after most of Hammer, the most elite ground forces of the galaxy, dies, hell Shepard has to activate and defend the missiles himself. Why? Because the fleet is busy engaging the other Reapers, and losing to them because they are facing a ridiculously superior forces. The only time we ever inflicted casualties on the Reapers was above Palaven. From the Codex;

''Knowing that the Reapers' weapons had a longer effective range than
any of his own, Coronati made a short, daring FTL jump--landing his
dreadnoughts in the middle of the Reaper fleet. The dreadnoughts then
turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers, which also needed to
turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the Reapers' size against
them--because they could turn faster, and their concentrated firepower
downed several Reaper capital ships.
The Reapers countered instantly. Their destroyers performed a
jump of their own to the skies above Palaven, beginning orbital strikes
of turian cities. The turians, forced to defend the planet, found
themselves in a pitched battle far from the relay, from which emerged a
seemingly endless line of Reaper ships. After massive casualties,
Coronati ordered retreat.''


So even tactics from the best fleet in the galaxy turned out to be countered by the Reapers. They aren't big dumb monsters. They've done this thousands of times. Arming fighters won,t save us, they have Occuli, and even then how do you produce enough fighters to destroy the entire armada, find the pilots to fly them and the instructors to train them, before your economy collapses?

Sorry people. This time it's not just Bioware being obtuse; it is very much established the Reapers cannot be beaten in conventionnal warfare. We can theorize, **** and moan all day long, but it's in the game and it makes sense.

[dreman9999]

Uncle Jo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's clear why they didn't end the treaty. They didn't believe that the reaper exsist. Blame the prothean for not understand the other race don't talk via touch.

No, I blame the writers to have put themselves in a corner, while it was easy to say in ME2 or even at the beginning of ME3, that the Galaxy began (and achieved) a massive rearmament after the Sovereign's matter, in prevision of the Reapers invasion.
It wouldn't even have changed the ME2 plot. Just two lines said by any councilor and we would have been out of the whole magical super-weapon BS.

How would the original plot not allow for somethinglike the crucilbe to be used? The concept of the reaper being an  unbeatable force never changed from the start of the planning of ME. Even if the orignal plot was kept, we still beusing a super weapon  to beat them.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's clear why they didn't end the treaty. They didn't believe that the reaper exsist. Blame the prothean for not understand the other race don't talk via touch.

No, I blame the writers to have put themselves in a corner, while it was easy to say in ME2 or even at the beginning of ME3, that the Galaxy began (and achieved) a massive rearmament after the Sovereign's matter, in prevision of the Reapers invasion.
It wouldn't even have changed the ME2 plot. Just two lines said by any councilor and we would have been out of the whole magical super-weapon BS.

This exactly.  We get hung up in all this and argue because of one word the writers inserted and kept having repeated.  Impossible.  Well then why even try to do anything?  Let's all run off to Ilos.

How would the original plot not allow for somethinglike the crucilbe to be used? The concept of the reaper being an  unbeatable force never changed from the start of the planning of ME. Even if the orignal plot was kept, we still beusing a super weapon  to beat them.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You can't win conventionally because Casey Hudson and Mac Walters said you can't. And that's the bottom line.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Maybe 3 years would have been enough, maybe not. I still don't see any way to stop the Reapers from just obliterating the Citadel races' industrial base by bombing planets, even if the Reapers had an inferior fleet.

But in any event, they simply didn't mobilize 3 years before ME3.

Maybe the crucible could be a time warp device (dark energy) that allows them to make ships they can take back in time to before the reapers entered the galaxy (ok, I'm not serious).

So you want it to be the dark force factory that was in Kotor?

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


MacGuffin 
http://www.merriam-w...onary/macguffin 
an object, event, or character in a film or story that serves to set and keep the plot in motion despite usually lacking intrinsic importance .

There's a clear importance to the crucible. Thus it's not a macguffin.

Uh, it usually but not always lacks intrinsic importance.  A MacGuffin merely has to be desired a lot.  The Holy Grail is a MacGuffin in the Indiana Jones movie.

A MacGuffin could be a large sum of money.  It does not have to be uknown.  Key word-usually.

That renders the MacGuffin concept so broad as to be virtually useless.

[Uncle Jo]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's clear why they didn't end the treaty. They didn't believe that the reaper exsist. Blame the prothean for not understand the other race don't talk via touch.

No, I blame the writers to have put themselves in a corner, while it was easy to say in ME2 or even at the beginning of ME3, that the Galaxy began (and achieved) a massive rearmament after the Sovereign's matter, in prevision of the Reapers invasion.
It wouldn't even have changed the ME2 plot. Just two lines said by any councilor and we would have been out of the whole magical super-weapon BS.

This exactly.  We get hung up in all this and argue because of one word the writers inserted and kept having repeated.  Impossible.  Well then why even try to do anything?  Let's all run off to Ilos.

You know what's even funnier ? Cerberus.

It was said that TIM spent almost all of his resources and money to bring back Shep from the deads and rebuild the Normandy.
Yet in ME3 he has an f***ing army including fighters and dreadnoughts, able to take and Omega, invade the Citadel hold on the Alliance and enough resources to build Eva and lead indoc experiments. (Horizon didn't produce any warship, for the ones who are coming up with this argument).

And people never thought it was unrealistic, nor had a problem with it.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 31 juillet 2012 - 09:04 .