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"Machines can be broken"-Conventional Victory Support Thread


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#626
incinerator950

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AlanC9 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Han Shot First wrote..

Armies and fleets can't be supported by an economic system based on primitive bartering. And they can't be fielded on charity.

Please explain how the civilizations of the galaxy could continue to wage an effective war against the Reapers after the total collapse of the galactic economy.


Just do their jobs without getting paid.
Wow that was hard to think of.<_<


Right. Will the engines run without fuel? Will spare parts magically appear on the ships? Can soldiers survive without food because they're really trying hard?


There's a report by a financial company/institution at the Spectre Terminal.  The Council races can only sustain a war up to a single year before the economy collapses. 

Yeah, take that into account fellas. 

#627
dreman9999

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BerzerkGene wrote...

Hakuthehedgehog wrote...

Occuli.

I thought of the same strategy, but the reapers have swarmers of their own and should you try to focus on a reaper with the fighters. they would be destroyed before they could do significant danger

Oculi are insanely weak, stop putting them on par with anything, they're less than a fighter. one fighter can easily shoot one down, unless taken by surprise. Anything larger just one shots them.
There isn't enough of the to swarm anyway, otherwise they would be used en masse. The biggest collection of them you see during the final battle of earth.

Oculi can dive into our ships and blow them up from the inside out. They are not weak.

#628
Ticonderoga117

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AlanC9 wrote...
Huh? I can see detonations amid the allied fleet before it opens fire.

Also, while this is fun and all, I feel compelled to point out that even if by some miracle the Citadel races somehow develop weaponry that's superior to the Reapers, while the Reapers can't develop anything new themselves, there's no reason to say that the Alliance can produce enough of it to win. That depends on relative fleet strengths, and we don't have any hard numbers on the Reapers. So to make these fantasies fly, you have to assume both that the techs work and that there aren't too many Reapers for it to matter.


Muzzle flashes from the kinetic weapons. Reaper fire would show beams of red death hitting ships before we could fire. None is present in the cinematic.

And that's true. However, that would be a factor in making your choices in the game had the planners actually planned it.

#629
Ledgend1221

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incinerator950 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Han Shot First wrote..

Armies and fleets can't be supported by an economic system based on primitive bartering. And they can't be fielded on charity.

Please explain how the civilizations of the galaxy could continue to wage an effective war against the Reapers after the total collapse of the galactic economy.


Just do their jobs without getting paid.
Wow that was hard to think of.<_<


Right. Will the engines run without fuel? Will spare parts magically appear on the ships? Can soldiers survive without food because they're really trying hard?


There's a report by a financial company/institution at the Spectre Terminal.  The Council races can only sustain a war up to a single year before the economy collapses. 

Yeah, take that into account fellas. 

Total war effort.
Screw the Economy.

#630
dreman9999

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x

Modifié par dreman9999, 01 août 2012 - 12:19 .


#631
incinerator950

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Ledgend1221 wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Han Shot First wrote..

Armies and fleets can't be supported by an economic system based on primitive bartering. And they can't be fielded on charity.

Please explain how the civilizations of the galaxy could continue to wage an effective war against the Reapers after the total collapse of the galactic economy.


Just do their jobs without getting paid.
Wow that was hard to think of.<_<


Right. Will the engines run without fuel? Will spare parts magically appear on the ships? Can soldiers survive without food because they're really trying hard?


There's a report by a financial company/institution at the Spectre Terminal.  The Council races can only sustain a war up to a single year before the economy collapses. 

Yeah, take that into account fellas. 

Total war effort.
Screw the Economy.


You can't run a war without an economy. 

#632
dreman9999

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@Ticonderoga117 

Laser have to be close to work.

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/GARDIAN 
Lasers are limited by diffraction. The beam 'spreads out', decreasing the energy density (watts per m2) the weapon can place on a target. Any high-powered laser is a short-ranged weapon.  c

#633
Ticonderoga117

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incinerator950 wrote...
1.   Barely anything was done to.  Collector Particle Technology was taken by Cerberus and overshadowed by Husk
Control and Indoctrination.  The Alliance managed to recover Prothean Particle technology, but didn't get past small arms.
3.  They're husks, husks.  Shepard has plot armor and has never been stranded on a planet with thousands of them in one level to swarm him/her.
4.  They don't have Particle Beams, Nukes are inneffective in space, and all laser weapons are Gardian lasers, which all are built for close range combat as anti-warhead/fighter countermeasures.  Anti-Matter weaponry is completely ignored after ME1.
5.  Small arms aren't the problem, building large specialized warheads and repairing, rearming, and even building ships are.  You can only hold out for so long in the void of space before the Reapers decide to purge sector by sector. 
6.  Despite contrary, most of the Reaper horde is not at Earth.  They have a sizable force throughout the Galaxy.  The Reapers have time to divide and harvest the Galaxy, we do not. 

The problem isn't the possibility of Conventional victory, its the fact that this story won't allow it.  No matter how much you justify a conventional way to kill a Reaper, it won't work because this story is setup to use the Crucible.


1. Huh?
2. Just upscale it.
3. And a military unit is more than Shepard and can take on larger numbers easily.
4. We had the bloody gun from ME2. You can't honestly say NO ONE thought to look at it.
Nukes are not ineffective in space, just a smaller radius of destruction. Make bigger lasers.
5. And you can dance around Reapers all day since FTL jumps are untrackable.
6. Maybe.

And yeah, that's what I've been saying. Common sense is ditched for that, because the writers said so. That's it.

#634
Ticonderoga117

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dreman9999 wrote...

@Ticonderoga117 

Laser have to be close to work.

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/GARDIAN 
Lasers are limited by diffraction. The beam 'spreads out', decreasing the energy density (watts per m2) the weapon can place on a target. Any high-powered laser is a short-ranged weapon.  c



I said that. Particle beams don't have to be though.

#635
Ledgend1221

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incinerator950 wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Han Shot First wrote..

Armies and fleets can't be supported by an economic system based on primitive bartering. And they can't be fielded on charity.

Please explain how the civilizations of the galaxy could continue to wage an effective war against the Reapers after the total collapse of the galactic economy.


Just do their jobs without getting paid.
Wow that was hard to think of.<_<


Right. Will the engines run without fuel? Will spare parts magically appear on the ships? Can soldiers survive without food because they're really trying hard?


There's a report by a financial company/institution at the Spectre Terminal.  The Council races can only sustain a war up to a single year before the economy collapses. 

Yeah, take that into account fellas. 

Total war effort.
Screw the Economy.


You can't run a war without an economy. 

Have you tried?
Total war effort.
Kept England alive.

#636
dreman9999

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@Ticonderoga117 

Laser have to be close to work.

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/GARDIAN 
Lasers are limited by diffraction. The beam 'spreads out', decreasing the energy density (watts per m2) the weapon can place on a target. Any high-powered laser is a short-ranged weapon.  c



I said that. Particle beams don't have to be though.

We have no 
Particle beam tech.

#637
dreman9999

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Ledgend1221 wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Han Shot First wrote..

Armies and fleets can't be supported by an economic system based on primitive bartering. And they can't be fielded on charity.

Please explain how the civilizations of the galaxy could continue to wage an effective war against the Reapers after the total collapse of the galactic economy.


Just do their jobs without getting paid.
Wow that was hard to think of.<_<


Right. Will the engines run without fuel? Will spare parts magically appear on the ships? Can soldiers survive without food because they're really trying hard?


There's a report by a financial company/institution at the Spectre Terminal.  The Council races can only sustain a war up to a single year before the economy collapses. 

Yeah, take that into account fellas. 

Total war effort.
Screw the Economy.


You can't run a war without an economy. 

Have you tried?
Total war effort.
Kept England alive.

That's countered by reaper destroying resources.

#638
BerzerkGene

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DecCylonus wrote...

A conventional victory may not be impossible, but it is very, very unlikely. The Reaper war is a war of attrition, and the Reapers hold a distinct advantage there. Even if it "only" takes four dreadnoughts or sixteen fighters to take down a Reaper dreadnought, there is no gaurantee that your forces will come through that battle intact. It is already stated that the Reapers have superior numbers. Therefore, they can afford losses more than the Citadel races. When you combine that with their superior weaponry and ability to one-shot Citadel capital ships, winning a war of attrition becomes very unlikely.

It is established in the codex that the Reaper ships have powerful point defense systems to deal with smaller ships that attack at close range. They also have the Occuli fighters. Since they have effective defenses against a fighter attack, the outcome of the battles is not gauranteed. The Reapers might win and kill all the fighters. They might lose. Or they might lose but still do a lot of damage to Citadel forces. Again, they can better absorb the losses.

The codex entries on the space battles fought with the Reapers make it clear that they do use tactics. Therefore, we can expect them to adapt to fighter swarms. The easiest way to defeat fighters is to target the carriers. Fighters aren't FTL capable, so if the carriers are destroyed the fighters can longer be used as offensive weapons. The carriers are capital ships and not easily replaced, so a concentrated effort to wipe them out would pretty much end the fighter threat. Also, in order for Citadel forces to win, that four-to-one ratio has to be maintained. Because the Reapers have superior numbers, they can concentrate their forces and deny the Citadel forces a chance to fight with the numbers in their favor. The Reapers can then force a decisive battle by attacking vital resources like major production centers with their massed fleet. The Citadel fleets must then either fight or lose the resources that allow them to keep fighting. The Reapers could also attempt to ambush Citadel forces with a massed fleet. The Citadel forces can always flee, but ships cannot instantly go to FTL when the Reapers appear. Any losses they take as they try to disengage still turn the war more in the Reapers' favor.

In short, Shepard's cycle isn't prepared to fight the Reapers in a conventional war. Unconventional tactics or superweapons are the best options.

Superior numbers in dreadnoughts, yes, in ground troops, well yeah, probably. ships in general though? No. Unless the Reapers somehow have more than several hundred thousand ships(which would mean they basically predate the creation of the milky way), they got nothing in regards to numbers.
They actually can't afford that many losses. It takes a bloody long time just to make a single reaper. Replacing their losses is not an easy thing, where it takes a fraction of the time to build a cruiser or dreadnought.

Yeah, its also stated they have longer range and better accuracy. What we see though says otherwise. As to the point defenses, they don't seem to have them. Otherwise the normandy would have been shredded while going past them.
Occuli are pieces of junk, glass cannons better suited against heavier ships than fighters.
1 Reaper takes something like a century to build. Those losses stay lost while a war is going.

Really, well all the things regarding Reaper space battles basically say that the galaxies tactics are working far better. The Asari used guerilla tactics, the Turians used trickery. The reapers just barge through, they don't have a strategy beyond "IMA FIRIN MAH LAZOR".

All well and good, but carriers are not right there in the line of fire, they hang back and resupply said fighters. To get to them you would have to go through an entire fleet(s). You're neglecting the fact that Reapers have horrible aim from range, only up close can they seem to hit anything. Unless they're harbinger, who can shoot a single person relatively easy while spamming his laser.
Again, they do not have supeior numbers in ships. You are a horrible mathematician.

While that would be the smart thing to do, its not the reaper thing to do. Having the entire Reaper fleet roll over each civilisation at a time would have been far more effective than spreading their forces thin. Especially while the politics kept the Council squabbling. Reapers and ambushing...yeah, no. The Reapers ambush exactly once per cycle, if they can't they don't seem to bother.

Actually they can. The second the crucible activates, hackett gives the order and bam, everyone is gone in under 20 seconds. Unless the Reapers had the exact location, they would be unable to effectively get them.

Initially they are unprepared. As of ME3, with the unity and if they fired hackett and had a turian general leading, or shepard, they would do far better in space warfare.

Yes unconventional tactics do work, that is certain. As for super weapons...there aren't any. The crucible is not a weapon. Its a god damn battery with a 0% success rate.

#639
incinerator950

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Ledgend1221 wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Han Shot First wrote..

Armies and fleets can't be supported by an economic system based on primitive bartering. And they can't be fielded on charity.

Please explain how the civilizations of the galaxy could continue to wage an effective war against the Reapers after the total collapse of the galactic economy.


Just do their jobs without getting paid.
Wow that was hard to think of.<_<


Right. Will the engines run without fuel? Will spare parts magically appear on the ships? Can soldiers survive without food because they're really trying hard?


There's a report by a financial company/institution at the Spectre Terminal.  The Council races can only sustain a war up to a single year before the economy collapses. 

Yeah, take that into account fellas. 

Total war effort.
Screw the Economy.


You can't run a war without an economy. 

Have you tried?
Total war effort.
Kept England alive.

Long Enough for the Allies to pull the pressure off and help them.  I can't believe you seriously thought of that. 

The Pressure isn't going to end with the Reapers.  Its going to keep getting worse and worse.  Resources dry up, our mobile ability to convert and construct resources will go out of order if not properly defended.  Our population centers are all on planets, which the Reapers all smashed through in the first push save Palaven, who contested it in the first push and never let go.

#640
Ticonderoga117

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dreman9999 wrote...
We have no 
Particle beam tech.


Collector Particle Beam Rifle and the Prothean Rifle.

#641
BerzerkGene

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dreman9999 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Reapers don't have the advantage of numbers...

Yes, they do.
Image IPB

Kay, thats a couple thousand(of thats what i feel this shows), not a million billion, not even a hundred thousand. Someone counted those, there are meant to be around 140 Reapers shown. Not impressed. Especially by the numbers. The reapers would need a minimum of 200,000 to actually outnumber the galaxy. that would imply that Harbinger is around 10billion years old.

#642
dreman9999

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
We have no 
Particle beam tech.


Collector Particle Beam Rifle and the Prothean Rifle.

Key note:Rifle. We can't magically make them into cannons. And it would take time for use to understand the tech enough to  upscale it.

Modifié par dreman9999, 01 août 2012 - 12:32 .


#643
incinerator950

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
We have no 
Particle beam tech.


Collector Particle Beam Rifle and the Prothean Rifle.


Let me know when the Council Races will scale that up to Ship Weaponry.  In a year before the Council Economies go Bankrupt and the Reapers are in many major systems.

#644
BerzerkGene

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djspectre wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

My suggestion was to arm fighters and frigates with a dreadnaughts main guns, thanix cannons to be specific. Considering that Thanix cannons are stated in the codex as being able to bypass the Reapers kinetic barriers, this method would allow you to hit the Reaper fleet with the firepower of dreadnaughts, WITHOUT USING DREADNAUGHTS.


The problem here is that dreadnaught main guns are bigger than fighters as a whole. 

Frigates are the smallest ship that can have a thanix canon of any sizeable impact, and look how big the normandy SR-2 had to be to fit one (it was said to be twice the size of the SR-1). 

Fair point, but a few problems.
1: Thanix are specifically stated to be able to be mounted on fighters.
2: The Normandy has 2 Thanix, not 1.
3: A dreadnought sized thanix would be able to match a reaper in sheer firepower(the normal ones are SCALED DOWN).
4: A frigate seems to be any size thats smaller than a cruiser, bigger than a fighter and reasonably fast. The SR2 is unique, mainly because of the size of its Eezo core.

#645
incinerator950

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BerzerkGene wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Reapers don't have the advantage of numbers...

Yes, they do.
Image IPB

Kay, thats a couple thousand(of thats what i feel this shows), not a million billion, not even a hundred thousand. Someone counted those, there are meant to be around 140 Reapers shown. Not impressed. Especially by the numbers. The reapers would need a minimum of 200,000 to actually outnumber the galaxy. that would imply that Harbinger is around 10billion years old.


Okay, so we outnumber them with ships by up to 3-5x.  We lose the final battle over Earth without the Crucible, with our surviving ships in destruction (not counting ships like Normandy) to be under a few dozen.  What does that tell you?   We don't have the numbers to challenge the Reapers strength, especially under the Circumstance they can take each major world, without straining their abilities to attack multiple sectors.  So if you rally a Guerilla War, manage to slow them down, then what?  ****** off a bee hive which will coordinate more of its forces and grind you down. 

Our production rate for ships is not a ship a month.  Three years after the Battle of the Citadel and both outcomes of the Alliance still didn't make up for the losses.   I keep reiterating this for a reason, this story is not set up for a Conventional Victory. 

#646
Ticonderoga117

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dreman9999 wrote...
Key note:Rifle. We can't magically make them into cannons. And it would take time for use to understand the tech enough to  upscale it.


Considering we were able to engineer tech from Soverign's wreckage, a working example is much more helpful.

#647
incinerator950

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BerzerkGene wrote...

djspectre wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

My suggestion was to arm fighters and frigates with a dreadnaughts main guns, thanix cannons to be specific. Considering that Thanix cannons are stated in the codex as being able to bypass the Reapers kinetic barriers, this method would allow you to hit the Reaper fleet with the firepower of dreadnaughts, WITHOUT USING DREADNAUGHTS.


The problem here is that dreadnaught main guns are bigger than fighters as a whole. 

Frigates are the smallest ship that can have a thanix canon of any sizeable impact, and look how big the normandy SR-2 had to be to fit one (it was said to be twice the size of the SR-1). 

Fair point, but a few problems.
1: Thanix are specifically stated to be able to be mounted on fighters.
2: The Normandy has 2 Thanix, not 1.
3: A dreadnought sized thanix would be able to match a reaper in sheer firepower(the normal ones are SCALED DOWN).
4: A frigate seems to be any size thats smaller than a cruiser, bigger than a fighter and reasonably fast. The SR2 is unique, mainly because of the size of its Eezo core.


No, it has a Thanix Cannon with two barrels.  A Dreadnought would still not match a Reaper in Sheer Firepower, they're more advanced then Council imitations. 

Thanix weapons were designed to be hull mounted, and added to fighters and frigates to match Cruiser Firepower.  All frigates maintain a small size.  Please don't attempt to say make a thousand Frigates armed with Thanix Cannons. 

#648
BerzerkGene

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AlanC9 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Han Shot First wrote..

Armies and fleets can't be supported by an economic system based on primitive bartering. And they can't be fielded on charity.

Please explain how the civilizations of the galaxy could continue to wage an effective war against the Reapers after the total collapse of the galactic economy.


Just do their jobs without getting paid.
Wow that was hard to think of.<_<


Right. Will the engines run without fuel? Will spare parts magically appear on the ships? Can soldiers survive without food because they're really trying hard?

Work for free, automitize your production facilities. Get the geth to run the entire infastructure of your war.
Its not as impossible as you people seem to think. You cannot eat money, you cannot shoot money. People in ME3 are specifically stated to do things for free because of the whole extinction thing. Example-Smuggler in purgatory.

#649
SP2219

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 You have really hit the nail on the head.  A great thread.
This is exactly the problem with Mass Effect 3.  Conventional victory is possible.  It is staring the characters right in the face.  We have thanix cannons.  These cannons can be mounted on fighters, the smallest and most numerous ship in all of the citadel fleets.  If every fighter were fitted with its own thanix cannon, collectively the council and terminus fleets would DECIMATE the Reapers.  All without the crucible I might add.

And if this is not possible the narrative has to tell us it isn't possible.  Just saying conventional victory isn't possible is not good enough   PROVE IT. The narrative does not at any point, say that thanix armament of the entire fleet is not a possibility.  Therefore why don't we at least try it?

#650
dreman9999

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Key note:Rifle. We can't magically make them into cannons. And it would take time for use to understand the tech enough to  upscale it.


Considering we were able to engineer tech from Soverign's wreckage, a working example is much more helpful.

It took years to do that. We don't have years. Added Sovergin's gun was more advance then the protheans particale weapons. And out of that we gotthe thanix cannon.


EDIT: scratch this. I looked up the details of partile beans...
http://en.wikipedia....i/Particle_beam 

particle beam is a stream of charged or neutral particles, in many cases moving at near the speed of light.There is a difference between creation and control of charged particle beams to neutral particle beams, as only the first type can be manipulated to a sufficient extent by devices based on electromagnetism.
Reading over what the thanix cannons do...
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Thanix 
The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero. The molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with enough force to pierce any known shield or armor.

That means the thanix cannon basisily is a partical weapon.

Modifié par dreman9999, 01 août 2012 - 12:49 .